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#91 Old 07-24-2013, 07:45 AM
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Many hydroponic farms also raise fish for slaughter because they can use the fish waste and dead fish to feed the plants. It is one of the few ways to make hydrpoponic profitable. I won't post a link because I guess we don't in this thread for the most part. Google away if you're interested. wink3.gif
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#92 Old 07-24-2013, 09:10 AM
 
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The big city I dwell in has it's own recycling program. That is, they provide trash bin and recycling bin. I think they should add compost bin.
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#93 Old 07-24-2013, 09:10 AM
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Fish meal is a common ingredient in hydroponic nutrients. There are more and more vegan nutrient solutions available, however if you know much about hydro nutrients you know how big a market it is and how much variety exists among them.

Conventional farms are not exclusive to chemically derived fertilizers, some use mix of both chemical and animal derived. It takes specific requirements to be labeled "organic", some farms incorporate both organic and conventional farming methods. So even when some organic methods are used, if the organic requirements are not met the farms fall under the category conventional.


Thank you. This information helps me understand the issue better.  Conventional sounds like the option with less risk of animal products being used.

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#94 Old 07-24-2013, 09:16 AM
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Thank you. This information helps me understand the issue better.  Conventional sounds like the option with less risk of animal products being used.

You're welcome, but please don't ignore the veganic gardening info I linked in my previous response. As well as the definition of vegan including the words "possible and practical".
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#95 Old 07-24-2013, 09:18 AM
 
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We have an organic farm across the street from my work. I wonder if the farm could use our food waste for compost?
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#96 Old 07-24-2013, 09:25 AM
 
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BTW, I buy produce from them, and yes, I consider myself vegan.
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#97 Old 07-24-2013, 10:23 AM
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The problem I'm seeing with every response here is they are all ignoring the question. They are all totally off-topic. How do vegans JUSTIFY eating produce which has had animal products applied directly to its soil? 

 

The responses are not ignoring the question. Most of us seem to be saying that the reason vegans JUSTIFY eating products which have had animal products applied to the soil is because if we didn't, most of us would not be eating at all. 

 

As had been said countless times on this thread, almost every single growing method in the world involves some sort of animal abuse or exploitation. No one likes that I'm sure, but right now no one is using animal free growing methods in a mass market way so there is no other choice. 

 

I'm not sure what you want people to agree to. Halting all eating practices until we personally fix world agriculture? Is that the only way we'd all be real vegans?


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#98 Old 07-24-2013, 12:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CAVeggieGuy View Post
 
and, note, from the growers I've talked to, the main source of fertilizer is bone and blood meal, not manure--so it does depend on killing cows, not just collecting their waste.
 

 

on the "lesser of two evils" reasoning...as far as I understand, the bone and blood meal used in fertilizers is a byproduct of killing cows for consumption, so they are not being slaughtered expressly to gain bone and blood meal.  Hopefully "veganic" agriculture will become more widespread, allowing more people access to veganically grown crops.  Until then, I'll choose organic vegetables over toxic, chemical-laden ones.   smiley.gif

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#99 Old 07-24-2013, 12:26 PM
 
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"Thank you for the informative posts. Can you elaborate further on nutrient sources for non-organic factory farms?"

Bioavailable nitrogen and phosphate can be efficiently synthesized using industrial processes. Phosphate and trace minerals are also mined.

 

 

Quote:
"Do you try to buy from local farms? For the no-till, low pesticide stuff I mean."

I buy a lot of local produce. For example, one of my favorite farms has fields that flood every year. The need to preserve top soil on their fields necessitated the use of no/low till methods. They do use manure but also fertilize with inorganics via injection/applicators.

 

 

Quote:
"1. Do you have evidence to show that most organic produce is fertilized with that and that conventional farming doesn't use it (or doesn't use a comparable amount)?"

I talk to farmers and visit their farms. Conventional farms also tend to use less "organic" fertilizer because its more expensive and less reliable. This tendency is *enough* for me to avoid produce from (larger) organic farms.

 

 

Quote:
2. Sure, but this is an issue with farming practices, this isn't unique to organic agriculture.

Agreed but the term "organic" has been co-opted by large corporations to give cover for destructive practices. This makes "organic" more pernicious, IMO.

 

Quote:
3. So is conventional. Do you have any evidence comparing organic and conventional ag with unfair trade practices and 1st world financial repression of poorer nations?

Organic farming favors large companies and multinationals because impoverished nations and smaller farmers do not have the funding to become certified.

 

 

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4. What's this based on?

 

  • Use of fish and animal byproducts.
  • Insect and rodent overpopulation.
  • Mechanical de-weeding.

 

http://www.economist.com/node/8380592
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v410/n6827/full/410409a0.html#B8

 

 

 

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5. Sure, we have "anti-science" from all sorts of people. The question to me is, is there comparable "anti-science propaganda" of both conventional and organic? Basically where's the evidence comparing the two.

I'm a big fan of biofortified:

 

http://www.biofortified.org/2013/05/dirty-dozen/

 

And then there is the GMO controversy:

 

http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/05/20/organic-industrys-credibility-erodes-beneath-waves-of-misinformation-about-genetically-modified-crops-and-food/

 

In PDX there is substantial overlap between the anti-fluoride/vaccination campaigns and locavore/organic advocates.

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#100 Old 07-24-2013, 12:32 PM
 
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on the "lesser of two evils" reasoning...as far as I understand, the bone and blood meal used in fertilizers is a byproduct of killing cows for consumption, so they are not being slaughtered expressly to gain bone and blood meal. smiley.gif

 

Billions of endangered fish are scooped up from intertidal coasts purely to generate fertilizer.

 

http://www.pewenvironment.org/campaigns/atlantic-menhaden-campaign/id/85899364506

http://savemenhaden.wordpress.com/

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/battle-brews-over-a-small-vital-fish/

 

 

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Until then, I'll choose organic vegetables over toxic, chemical-laden ones. 

 

 

http://www.biofortified.org/2013/05/dirty-dozen/

 

http://www.biofortified.org/2013/04/tomato/

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/06/19/155354070/why-you-shouldnt-panic-about-pesticide-in-produce

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#101 Old 07-24-2013, 02:48 PM
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I just scanned over these posts and all I can say is it reminded me what people mean when they say they could never be vegan!

Yes, I'm being facetious, but.................................geezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

I get some people have time and interest for this, but I hope no ones expecting to think it's not "vegan" to not decipher where food is grown and how.

Reminds me of a Portlandia someone once referenced where the server is explaining the life of a chicken named George they had on the menu....

 

I eat too much for this.


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#102 Old 07-24-2013, 08:02 PM
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I just reread your original post unethicalvegan. I realize that you specified your reasons for avoiding organic foods. So to be clear, I simply disagree with your reasons. I think there's some validity in that criticism (in that say we could source, if possible, some produce that is not fertilized with animal products, including endangered animals). However, I disagree that those reasons are really valid against organic and not also applicable to non-organic foods. Or that no-till is a viable alternative.
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I talk to farmers and visit their farms. Conventional farms also tend to use less "organic" fertilizer because its more expensive and less reliable. This tendency is *enough* for me to avoid produce from (larger) organic farms.

Yeah, I live in a farming community and regularly converse directly with farmers, work with farmers, and visit farms, but that's all anecdotal. If the issue is with the use of bony intertidal fish to fertilize produce then for it to be a complaint against organic (and not conventional), one would have to have evidence showing that the majority is used on organic, as well as the majority of organic produce is fertilized with it. I'm not convinced that's the case, but I may be wrong, hence why I was asking for evidence.

If not, it's simply a complaint against using that specifically as a fertilizer and is irrelevant to organic ag.

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Agreed but the term "organic" has been co-opted by large corporations to give cover for destructive practices. This makes "organic" more pernicious, IMO.

Any marketing label is utilized to sell a product, organic is no different. As for destructive practices, where's the evidence to support the notion that large corporations (which ones specifically for example) cover up what destructive practices (which ones specifically). Further how is this different than conventional ag? As in, let's compare the destructive practices and what labels are used by the companies.

This seems to be an issue of co-opting labels, again, not really specifically about organic.
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Organic farming favors large companies and multinationals because impoverished nations and smaller farmers do not have the funding to become certified.

I live in an area where a lot of small farmers (as in 10 acres or less) sell certified organic foods, but that's anecdotal. However, you targeted unfair trade and 1st world financial repression of poorer nations, can you demonstrate this as compared to conventional?

I'd again argue, that this is an issue of modern agriculture in totality. I don't think conventional ag is in any way exempt from this criticism (being associated with unfair trade and 1st world financial repression of poorer nations).
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  • Use of fish and animal byproducts.
  • Insect and rodent overpopulation.
  • Mechanical de-weeding.

http://www.economist.com/node/8380592
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v410/n6827/full/410409a0.html#B8

That doesn't support the claim that organic is associated with more death than conventional, and is this in totality or by quantity, and is that quantity compared by volume or weight, or inputs, or monetary costs or what? I'm more interested in evidential support and not opinion pieces.

If not, I really don't see the association.

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I'm a big fan of biofortified:

http://www.biofortified.org/2013/05/dirty-dozen/

And then there is the GMO controversy:

http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/05/20/organic-industrys-credibility-erodes-beneath-waves-of-misinformation-about-genetically-modified-crops-and-food/

In PDX there is substantial overlap between the anti-fluoride/vaccination campaigns and locavore/organic advocates.

Uhm, okay. That doesn't really answer the question. I agree that there are those who hold both associations, the question was more directly with comparing the prevalence of "anti-science" (whatever that means to you) and organic vs conventional ag, not simply what's wrong with what some people think about organic and their weird ideas.

--

What I see are some valid issues and criticism with organic, but I don't really see any comparison with regards to conventional to make any claim that organic is therefor worse than conventional (based on what has been provided) or that organic should be avoided.
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#103 Old 07-25-2013, 10:20 AM
 
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That doesn't support the claim that organic is associated with more death than conventional, and is this in totality or by quantity, and is that quantity compared by volume or weight, or inputs, or monetary costs or what? I'm more interested in evidential support and not opinion pieces.

 

norgardsram, if you live in a farming community i would suggest that you head over to a supply store and peruse organic fertilizers versus conventional fertilizers. pay special  attention to price and the presence or absence fish extract (often depicted on the package by a fish symbol). given that most conventional farms use cheap inorganic fertilizer it stands to reason that organic farms cause more menhaden death than conventional farms.

 

moreover, your desire for evidence is ironic given that many proponents of "organic" food are dismissive of "reductionist" study of organic agriculture.

 

 

Quote:
I'd again argue, that this is an issue of modern agriculture in totality. I don't think conventional ag is in any way exempt from this criticism (being associated with unfair trade and 1st world financial repression of poorer nations).

 

this in no way diminishes my argument that organic certification represents an expensive and exclusive barrier to the importation of sustainably-grown food from less-developed nations.

 

 

 

Quote:
What I see are some valid issues and criticism with organic, but I don't really see any comparison with regards to conventional to make any claim that organic is therefor worse than conventional (based on what has been provided) or that organic should be avoided.

 

non-organic tomatoes can be efficiently and sustainably grown without any animal input. efficient growth of organic tomatoes, on the other hand, requires the use of animal-derived fertilizer. if we are going to move towards a more vegan and sustainable form of agriculture, it will be by definition non-organic.

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#104 Old 07-25-2013, 03:10 PM
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non-organic tomatoes can be efficiently and sustainably grown without any animal input. efficient growth of organic tomatoes, on the other hand, requires the use of animal-derived fertilizer. if we are going to move towards a more vegan and sustainable form of agriculture, it will be by definition non-organic.

 

Vegan organic is entirely possible: http://veganorganic.net/information-for-growers/

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#105 Old 07-25-2013, 03:57 PM
 
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Vegan organic is entirely possible: http://veganorganic.net/information-for-growers/

Unfortunately fertilizer inputs come from other crops (Catch 22) or from seaweed (not sustainable globally). 

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#106 Old 07-25-2013, 06:30 PM
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Vegan organic is entirely possible: http://veganorganic.net/information-for-growers/

This site suggest introducing using beetles that eat snails, other bugs and slugs and such and having a goal to kill any animal is not considered 100% vegan by some.

 

This is where I get hung up on the totally vegan growing methods. We have so many debates about honey, with most vegans saying, if you eat honey you're not vegan as it kills some bees and takes their food. So, by that definition of vegan, if you're trying to kill bugs, spiders, snails and slugs it wouldn't be vegan either. 

 

I honestly don't think there's a way to grow 100% vegan with respect to garden pests. 

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#107 Old 07-25-2013, 08:14 PM
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norgardsram, if you live in a farming community i would suggest that you head over to a supply store and peruse organic fertilizers versus conventional fertilizers. pay special  attention to price and the presence or absence fish extract (often depicted on the package by a fish symbol).

unethicalvegan, if you want to make a claim and want others to have any confidence in that claim, I suggest that you provide actual evidence. Anecdotal evidence doesn't cut it.

You made the claim, it's not up to me to validate or invalidate said claim based on local farming practices. You gave reasons, making a claim about organic as well as claims comparing organic and conventional ag. I disagreed, based on my experience or I simply do not have an opinion. I briefly tried to corroborate your claims, and so far, they appear unsubstantiated. Hence why I asked you for evidence. It's up to you to validate those claims.

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given that most conventional farms use cheap inorganic fertilizer it stands to reason that organic farms cause more menhaden death than conventional farms.

No, that does not stand to reason. Evidence and data support claims, not attempts to reason one's way based on faulty or at least suspect knowledge/understanding.
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moreover, your desire for evidence is ironic given that many proponents of "organic" food are dismissive of "reductionist" study of organic agriculture.

That statement seems really irrelevant. You do realize that organic ag is studied in a scientific capacity, including academically, including in comparing impacts, results, yields, etc.?

Many proponents of conventional foods believe weird stuff too. It's really irrelevant and a bizarre complaint.
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this in no way diminishes my argument that organic certification represents an expensive and exclusive barrier to the importation of sustainably-grown food from less-developed nations.

Uhm, that wasn't your original argument, but for the sake of argument let's say it now is your supposed argument.

Well, it's not really an argument, what it is (including your original statement vaguely related), is an unsubstantiated claim.
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non-organic tomatoes can be efficiently and sustainably grown without any animal input. efficient growth of organic tomatoes, on the other hand, requires the use of animal-derived fertilizer. if we are going to move towards a more vegan and sustainable form of agriculture, it will be by definition non-organic.

What? This is completely unsubstantiated.

A) Efficient growth (what does that mean exactly?) of organic tomatoes does not require the use of animal-derived fertilizer. To substantiate this you've have to compare all possible organic fertilizers on tomatoes and compare the efficiency to non-organic. This has not been done.

B) The definition of vegan and sustainable do not have "non-organic" in it. There's not even an argument that leads one from vegan and sustainable to requiring non-organic.

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#108 Old 07-26-2013, 12:24 PM
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To summarize the thread:

 

There is a much higher chance of animal products being used in the production of organic produce than conventional. The clear choice for true vegans is conventional.

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#109 Old 07-26-2013, 12:28 PM
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To summarize the thread:

There is a much higher chance of animal products being used in the production of organic produce than conventional. The clear choice for true vegans is conventional.

Based on what? Do you have anything to substantiate this claim?

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#110 Old 07-26-2013, 01:59 PM
 
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This site suggest introducing using beetles that eat snails, other bugs and slugs and such and having a goal to kill any animal is not considered 100% vegan by some.

 

This is where I get hung up on the totally vegan growing methods. We have so many debates about honey, with most vegans saying, if you eat honey you're not vegan as it kills some bees and takes their food. So, by that definition of vegan, if you're trying to kill bugs, spiders, snails and slugs it wouldn't be vegan either. 

 

I honestly don't think there's a way to grow 100% vegan with respect to garden pests. 

 


I agree. No matter what we do we always cause harm to some degree. My goal is to do less harm...and consequently I've come to the conclusion that I favor low-impact non-organic agriculture versus factory-farm organic. I still buy organic from local farmers and factory farm organic when there is no better choice.

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Aww, that's beautiful! Honestly I would love to have my body put to good use after I die, I much prefer the idea of returning to the earth and becoming something useful like food or flowers to just taking up space in a box in a cemetery.

I'm not a gardener or a farmer so maybe there's some other reason that wouldn't work besides squeamishness but it seems like an interesting idea to me.
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#112 Old 07-26-2013, 06:00 PM
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Possible and practical people!

What is a "true vegan"?
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#113 Old 07-27-2013, 08:30 AM
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This site suggest introducing using beetles that eat snails, other bugs and slugs and such and having a goal to kill any animal is not considered 100% vegan by some.

This is where I get hung up on the totally vegan growing methods. We have so many debates about honey, with most vegans saying, if you eat honey you're not vegan as it kills some bees and takes their food. So, by that definition of vegan, if you're trying to kill bugs, spiders, snails and slugs it wouldn't be vegan either. 

I honestly don't think there's a way to grow 100% vegan with respect to garden pests. 

I guess, these are some of the reasons why I prefer to leave out "harm" from trying to define veganism and why I've argued against it.

I prefer a more direct and easy to understand and use/apply definition of veganism and like to keep it detached from "ethical". In that veganism can be part of an ethical lifestyle but veganism in and of itself is not necessarily ethical.

I mean, realistically, driving probably kills more honey bees than say obtaining honey from the honey bees. By driving I mean personal use or any product which is moved via vehicle transportation. It doesn't really make sense, to me, to claim that makes it not vegan. What it does imply, to me, is that there are ethical issues surrounding vehicle use, farming use, etc.

With honey bees, I've heard it takes 10 or 12 honey bees their entire lives to make one teaspoon of honey*. That alone makes me a little sad to use honey. sad.gif

*I've also heard honeybees live anywhere from a few weeks to a few months, depending on time of year, location of the hive, etc.

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#114 Old 07-27-2013, 12:43 PM
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I guess, these are some of the reasons why I prefer to leave out "harm" from trying to define veganism and why I've argued against it.

I prefer a more direct and easy to understand and use/apply definition of veganism and like to keep it detached from "ethical". In that veganism can be part of an ethical lifestyle but veganism in and of itself is not necessarily ethical.

I mean, realistically, driving probably kills more honey bees than say obtaining honey from the honey bees. By driving I mean personal use or any product which is moved via vehicle transportation. It doesn't really make sense, to me, to claim that makes it not vegan. What it does imply, to me, is that there are ethical issues surrounding vehicle use, farming use, etc.

With honey bees, I've heard it takes 10 or 12 honey bees their entire lives to make one teaspoon of honey*. That alone makes me a little sad to use honey. sad.gif

*I've also heard honeybees live anywhere from a few weeks to a few months, depending on time of year, location of the hive, etc.

 

Right. When you get into vegan perfection, it becomes impossible. I don't eat animal products. I don't buy animal-tested products on purpose, if there's another option. I think that makes me vegan as I can be in a realistic sense.

 

Still, I don't believe there's such a thing as real vegan agriculture, at least not in terms of what folks have said on this thread. I do believe there are some growers who attempt very hard to cause less harm with their methods, but I think they're few and far between and my guess is they have some really tough pest issues they spend lots of time on. 

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#115 Old 07-27-2013, 03:02 PM
 
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I guess, these are some of the reasons why I prefer to leave out "harm" from trying to define veganism...

 

fortunately, veganism is a fluid movement with many motivations and arguments. as a hardcore utilitarian vegan i still call myself vegan even though many of my positions drive the "vegans do not consume or use animal products period" crowd to distraction.

 

Quote:
I mean, realistically, driving probably kills more honey bees than say obtaining honey from the honey bees...

 

 

i consider being car-free to be just as much a part of my "veganism" as minimizing consumption of animal products. ymmv.

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#116 Old 07-27-2013, 03:32 PM
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veganism is a fluid movement with many motivations and arguments.

I agree, and have stated the same thing. There are still some basic commonalities, like not using or consuming animal products. smiley.gif
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i consider being car-free to be just as much a part of my "veganism" as minimizing consumption of animal products. ymmv.

I know many people are car-free, however that doesn't mean one's lifestyle is free from driving impacts (hence the reason I specifically stated "By driving I mean personal use or any product which is moved via vehicle transportation." Any product purchased, including computers, bikes (and bike parts/equipment), household products, any food not grown in one's backyard or within walking distance was at some point in a vehicle, etc. contributed to honey bee deaths.

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#117 Old 07-27-2013, 11:29 PM
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Aww, that's beautiful! Honestly I would love to have my body put to good use after I die, I much prefer the idea of returning to the earth and becoming something useful like food or flowers to just taking up space in a box in a cemetery.

I'm not a gardener or a farmer so maybe there's some other reason that wouldn't work besides squeamishness but it seems like an interesting idea to me.

 

I was browsing vegan blog posts and somehow stumbled onto this image of a Tibetan 'sky burial' - as you do - and it reminded me of this discussion.

Now I really don't like gore, I will go out of my way to avoid it. But the weirdest thing is I found this image not gory at all, but instead somehow peaceful and beautiful and powerful. It also provokes all kinds of questions about the way our own culture views death, the body and so-on. 

 

WARNING the following link contains an image of human remains

 

http://jessjonesknows.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/20130727-184423.jpg


The sky is purple and things are right every day

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#118 Old 07-29-2013, 11:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nogardsram View Post


I agree, and have stated the same thing. There are still some basic commonalities, like not using or consuming animal products. smiley.gif
I know many people are car-free, however that doesn't mean one's lifestyle is free from driving impacts (hence the reason I specifically stated "By driving I mean personal use or any product which is moved via vehicle transportation."

 

I agree with both points. Its good to find some common ground, nogardsram.

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#119 Old 07-29-2013, 12:49 PM
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This debate/discussions has been enlightening and I learned quite about vegan and organic farming. Thanks to those members who participated (and will continue to participate) in this titillating discussion. The goal of veganism is to reduce animal exploitation and harm, as far as possible and practical, so when we continually challenge our positions, it's a good thing. I still have to weigh all that I've learned for when I make my trips to my farmer's market and general grocery. We're all on a journey, as they say....

 

Aristedebook2.gif


"Now listen, I know you've got to think about your image, 'cause image is important to you, because of course your friends are gonna dictate your actions through the rest of your lives, and I wouldn't want you to step away from them and become an individual, that would almost be too much!"...

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#120 Old 07-29-2013, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristede View Post

The goal of veganism is to reduce animal exploitation and harm, as far as possible and practical

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but I disagree. I'd agree if either 'For some,' was added at the beginning or to change it to 'some reasons to go vegan are to reduce animal exploitation...'

I believe everything.
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