Veggie Regular
Join Date: Apr 2006
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I like these two posts so much I'm making them into a thread of my own so I can quickly reference others to it in the future:
These two posts really seem to me the starting point of veganism. Of course the finer details are still discussed and debated but it seems to me that these posts point to a shift in thinking. Veganism isn't about perfection -- it's about the shift in thinking summed up in one sentence "I want to question the status of animals as commodities, as resources and objects".
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomebodyElse 
This is what meat eaters say to themselves too though. Its too bad the animals don't share the same privilege with us, to have an equal say in what we choose to steal from them, be it their lives, or the food they need to feed their young.
Obviously most of us are okay with it. But they aren't. Why is it okay for us to do whatever we want to them? Why don't we have to answer to the animals we harm and kill and rob? Are most people really so lacking in decency and conscience that they see no need to even acknowledge what they are taking away from other animals? Why is it that we see ourselves as entitled to "choose", but we see them as having no choice at all, but as simply existing to serve us, or not to serve us, as we see fit? Why does it matter that we need bees to keep our environment healthy? Why can't we see bees, and all other animals, as having the same right we do to simply live for themselves, as we live for ourselves?
This is what meat eaters say to themselves too though. Its too bad the animals don't share the same privilege with us, to have an equal say in what we choose to steal from them, be it their lives, or the food they need to feed their young.
Obviously most of us are okay with it. But they aren't. Why is it okay for us to do whatever we want to them? Why don't we have to answer to the animals we harm and kill and rob? Are most people really so lacking in decency and conscience that they see no need to even acknowledge what they are taking away from other animals? Why is it that we see ourselves as entitled to "choose", but we see them as having no choice at all, but as simply existing to serve us, or not to serve us, as we see fit? Why does it matter that we need bees to keep our environment healthy? Why can't we see bees, and all other animals, as having the same right we do to simply live for themselves, as we live for ourselves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas
The purpose of me being vegan is not to completely eliminate from my life every product or service associated with animal products. That would be perfectionism without any particular political purpose. Avoiding the use of public transportation because a bus has animal products in it, for example, would not be very effective.
The purpose of me being vegan is that I want to embody in my life a challenge to the status quo. I want to question the status of animals as commodities, as resources and objects. Not eating their flesh or their bodily products or wearing their skins is the most obvious way of doing this. I of course extend this to avoiding smaller amounts of animal ingredients too, but not to a complete avoidance of contact with anything of animal origin.
As the ethical message I am embodying gains visibility, one step at a time, the general use of animal products will gradually be reduced. The way to get buses to stop using leather seats is not to use the bicycle to get to work, but to be part of a political movement that tries to change society's perception of animals.
The purpose of me being vegan is not to completely eliminate from my life every product or service associated with animal products. That would be perfectionism without any particular political purpose. Avoiding the use of public transportation because a bus has animal products in it, for example, would not be very effective.
The purpose of me being vegan is that I want to embody in my life a challenge to the status quo. I want to question the status of animals as commodities, as resources and objects. Not eating their flesh or their bodily products or wearing their skins is the most obvious way of doing this. I of course extend this to avoiding smaller amounts of animal ingredients too, but not to a complete avoidance of contact with anything of animal origin.
As the ethical message I am embodying gains visibility, one step at a time, the general use of animal products will gradually be reduced. The way to get buses to stop using leather seats is not to use the bicycle to get to work, but to be part of a political movement that tries to change society's perception of animals.
These two posts really seem to me the starting point of veganism. Of course the finer details are still discussed and debated but it seems to me that these posts point to a shift in thinking. Veganism isn't about perfection -- it's about the shift in thinking summed up in one sentence "I want to question the status of animals as commodities, as resources and objects".
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Veggie Regular
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
I'm glad if you found my post helpful 
(And if you want, you can PayPal $50 to [email protected] to show your appreciation)
(And if you want, you can PayPal $50 to [email protected] to show your appreciation)
"and I stand
upon a mountain
made of weak and useless men"
Veggie Regular
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas
(And if you want, you can PayPal $50 to [email protected] to show your appreciation)
(And if you want, you can PayPal $50 to [email protected] to show your appreciation)
Oh, I saw that paypal account on the Shania homepage and I've been paypaling you regularly because of all the nice things you say about her on that site. It's neat that we've been connecting on that site too without realizing it.
Quote:
I'm glad if you found my post helpful
Yeah, I know you've always said basically the same thing but it really struck me differently this time and then Somebodyelse's post struck me in the same way. I guess with the veganism it seems to often be about animal cruelty and opposing factory farms and getting all into that -- and then someone asks "hey, what about honey -- what if we set up some kind of interesting contraption to take out some this way or that way and maybe it won't harm the bees as much" and it's the same with free range eggs if someone promises the chickens aren't going to be slaughtered or it's the same with Hare Krishna dairies where none of the cows are slaughtered.
But then your simple sentence asks for a shift in thinking. Instead of always thinking of some way in which we can extract something from the other animals in the animal kingdom we can shift to thinking how we could "question the status of animals as commodities, as resources and objects". And that is echoed by Somebodyelse, especially with "Why is it that we see ourselves as entitled to "choose", but we see them as having no choice at all, but as simply existing to serve us, or not to serve us, as we see fit?"
Suddenly it makes it seem like we aren't giving up anything when we give up cheese or yogurt or eggs or honey. How can we give up something that doesn't belong to us?
Yeah, I don't know, I just really prefer that perspective. I know human survival history has been about brutality in an attempt just to survive. I guess in the past it has seemed right to be brutal towards animals and even each other. And we can continue with that or not.
And if we take the sentence by Somebodyelse and apply it to human slaves it just makes so much sense -- hopefully someday it'll make just as much sense to society to apply it to animals:
Why is it that we see ourselves as entitled to "choose", but we see them as having no choice at all, but as simply existing to serve us, or not to serve us, as we see fit?
Well done, you two.
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Veggie Regular
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In a California Ghost Town
Posts: 7,245
Thank you Mr. Sun! 
www.thesaucyvegan.com
Veggie Regular
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,085
Mr Sun, you are awesome and quoted two of the persons I admire most here. Thanks, my friend!
Veggie Regular
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlaybackGuru
Mr Sun, you are awesome and quoted two of the persons I admire most here. Thanks, my friend!
Mr Sun, you are awesome and quoted two of the persons I admire most here. Thanks, my friend!
Ditto.
Newbie
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 54
"Suddenly it makes it seem like we aren't giving up anything when we give up cheese or yogurt or eggs or honey. How can we give up something that doesn't belong to us?"
Very nice! Well put.
Very nice! Well put.
Vegan Police Officer
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas
I'm glad if you found my post helpful
(And if you want, you can PayPal $50 to [email protected] to show your appreciation)
I'm glad if you found my post helpful
(And if you want, you can PayPal $50 to [email protected] to show your appreciation)
I copied that post the moment you made it into my draft of the "Golden Book of Vegan Quotes". One day, I will maybe publish it. But you won't get any money!!!! Sorry!!!!
(And neither will I. If it does get published one day, all proceeds will go to promoting veganism. And the authors of the quotes will all be called "Anonymous".)
Veggie Regular
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,089
Okay, I love SomebodyElse...because she helped me tremendously on my journey to veganism. I mean, she made something that I thought would require a lot of self control and so much hard work seem so easy and just every day life. Thanks SomebodyElse!
In my opinion, I think the reason why we use and abuse animals is because we can't communicate with them. This is also displayed amongst humans. For example in war, which usually occurs between two countries of different back grounds and languages. I think it's much easier to kill someone you don't understand than one that can communicate with you. What do you think?
Of course, this logic makes absolutely no sense to me! I mean babies can't talk to us either!!!
In my opinion, I think the reason why we use and abuse animals is because we can't communicate with them. This is also displayed amongst humans. For example in war, which usually occurs between two countries of different back grounds and languages. I think it's much easier to kill someone you don't understand than one that can communicate with you. What do you think?
Of course, this logic makes absolutely no sense to me! I mean babies can't talk to us either!!!
Veggie Regular
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedre
Okay, I love SomebodyElse...because she helped me tremendously on my journey to veganism. I mean, she made something that I thought would require a lot of self control and so much hard work seem so easy and just every day life. Thanks SomebodyElse!
In my opinion, I think the reason why we use and abuse animals is because we can't communicate with them. This is also displayed amongst humans. For example in war, which usually occurs between two countries of different back grounds and languages. I think it's much easier to kill someone you don't understand than one that can communicate with you. What do you think?
Of course, this logic makes absolutely no sense to me! I mean babies can't talk to us either!!!
Okay, I love SomebodyElse...because she helped me tremendously on my journey to veganism. I mean, she made something that I thought would require a lot of self control and so much hard work seem so easy and just every day life. Thanks SomebodyElse!
In my opinion, I think the reason why we use and abuse animals is because we can't communicate with them. This is also displayed amongst humans. For example in war, which usually occurs between two countries of different back grounds and languages. I think it's much easier to kill someone you don't understand than one that can communicate with you. What do you think?
Of course, this logic makes absolutely no sense to me! I mean babies can't talk to us either!!!
Yeah, those posts keep swirling around in my head and I'm still not sure why. I think it's like coming from a different perspective -- like in the honey thread someone said "what's right with honey?". That's the thing: instead of vegans having to answer "what's wrong with honey?" it spins it around to the other way. People should have to prove that bees don't suffer (and without testing on them). If we can't prove that and there are alternatives then it makes sense to use the alternatives. Same with eggs and dairy.
And I think you touch on something important here: to learn the language of another human means more than just the verbal language -- there is the language of culture, too. We now believe that it was so wrong for Europeans to assume that they had a superior culture to people in other lands. A lot of damage was inflicted on others because of this breakdown in understanding. It seems to me that if they had come first to try to understand the language and culture then maybe things would've been different.
It seems that we should be taking a much humbler approach when we interact with other animals, including humans.
Veggie Regular
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In a California Ghost Town
Posts: 7,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedre
Okay, I love SomebodyElse...because she helped me tremendously on my journey to veganism. I mean, she made something that I thought would require a lot of self control and so much hard work seem so easy and just every day life. Thanks SomebodyElse!
Okay, I love SomebodyElse...because she helped me tremendously on my journey to veganism. I mean, she made something that I thought would require a lot of self control and so much hard work seem so easy and just every day life. Thanks SomebodyElse!
You're welcome, and thank you, and I love you too! Keep up the good work!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedre
In my opinion, I think the reason why we use and abuse animals is because we can't communicate with them. This is also displayed amongst humans. For example in war, which usually occurs between two countries of different back grounds and languages. I think it's much easier to kill someone you don't understand than one that can communicate with you. What do you think?
Of course, this logic makes absolutely no sense to me! I mean babies can't talk to us either!!!
In my opinion, I think the reason why we use and abuse animals is because we can't communicate with them. This is also displayed amongst humans. For example in war, which usually occurs between two countries of different back grounds and languages. I think it's much easier to kill someone you don't understand than one that can communicate with you. What do you think?
Of course, this logic makes absolutely no sense to me! I mean babies can't talk to us either!!!
I agree.
www.thesaucyvegan.com
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