Confusion on Veganism - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 08-11-2008, 10:15 AM
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Ok, to get this out of the way this is not a pro-meat/pro-hunting post but is made in a genuine spirit of curiosity and desire for answers.



I've been told by a friend that I should try being Vegan, being a good friend I looked into it and I've come away with some confusion.



First, I dont fault people who are Vegan and make it work. However, from what I've seen, it seems that Veganism takes more time, energy, and money than most people are able/willing to devote to their diet to really follow it and stay healthy. How do you avoid nutritional deficiencies and other medical complications that can come from a lack of nutrients that meat provides?



Second, how can you totally replace all animal products with non-animal? I am a welder by trade and one of my key pieces of equipment is a leather jacket. Its made of thick treated leather that protects my skin from everything from UV damage to pieces of white hot steel falling on it. In the latter case it buys you a few seconds to get your arm out. Now there ARE plastics and treated cloths you can get for this purpose. But often they are extremely expensive and have a tendency to melt when exposed to high temperatures and also dont stand up to copious abuse well. In this case, leather really is the best and most cost effective material for the job.



Also, how are you really minimizing your impact on the animal kingdom? To grow crops, land must be cleared and habitats destroyed. So it seems, to me, that you aren't really alleviating pressure on the natural world, just shifting it to a less visible spectrum.



I really am interested in serious responses, thank you for your time
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#2 Old 08-11-2008, 10:44 AM
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Ok, to get this out of the way this is not a pro-meat/pro-hunting post but is made in a genuine spirit of curiosity and desire for answers.



You don't say clearly whether you are vegetarian or vegan or not -- if you are not you are not supposed to be on this forum. That's the rules.







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First, I dont fault people who are Vegan and make it work. However, from what I've seen, it seems that Veganism takes more time, energy, and money than most people are able/willing to devote to their diet to really follow it and stay healthy.



I've never run into any unhealthy vegans. I'm sure they're out there -- just as there are some obese omnivores. Meat doesn't make one healthy -- a healthy diet does.



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How do you avoid nutritional deficiencies and other medical complications that can come from a lack of nutrients that meat provides?



What nutrients are you talking about? Meat doesn't provide anything that we cannot get. Read the American Dietetic Association website to get your proper info on diet and health. They say that a vegan diet is appropriate for every stage of life.



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Second, how can you totally replace all animal products with non-animal? I am a welder by trade and one of my key pieces of equipment is a leather jacket.



You do what you can. Some people thought soccer balls would always be made of leather but since 1986 FIFA has been using synthetic balls for world cup play because sythetics are superior.





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Also, how are you really minimizing your impact on the animal kingdom? To grow crops, land must be cleared and habitats destroyed. So it seems, to me, that you aren't really alleviating pressure on the natural world, just shifting it to a less visible spectrum.



If Americans became vegan millions of acres of farm land would have to be abandoned and hopefully turned back to the original state. It takes a half an acre to feed a vegan each year and three acres to feed an omnivore. Do the math.



Grains are grown to feed the animals and the conversion rate to food isn't very good.
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#3 Old 08-11-2008, 10:51 AM
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I'm not totally vegan yet but here's a few answers for you



1. Veganism takes more time/energy/money to maintain a healthy diet - I've found that maintaining a healthy vegan diet doesn't take any more time, energy or money than maintaining a healthy omni diet. Back before I gave up meat I was still having to read labels and make sure I was eating enough whole grains, vegetables, beans, nuts, etc. I actual find that it's a bit easier eating a healthy vegan diet because I don't have to worry about minimizing saturated fat or getting enough fiber.



2. Replacing all animal products - From what I understand, veganism is avoiding all animal products as as best as you can. It's impossible to be a 100% perfect vegan. If there are no good non-animal alternatives to your safety gear, no one is going to fault you for continuing to use the leather. It's the best you can do without compomising your safety. There are a lot of vegans here who continue to use the leather they had before they went vegan and just replace things as they wear out.



3. Land cleared for crops - More soybeans and grains are grown to feed farm animals than people.
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#4 Old 08-11-2008, 10:54 AM
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Shotgun, you might be interested in this thread. People that not only "survive" without meat but are even beating the meat-eaters. The ones with a * are vegan:





https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...ad.php?t=77739



One example of an anemic vegan:



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#5 Old 08-11-2008, 11:15 AM
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http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg...3_ENU_HTML.htm



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It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Approximately 2.5% of adults in the United States and 4% of adults in Canada follow vegetarian diets.



A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat, fish, or fowl. Interest in vegetarianism appears to be increasing, with many restaurants and college foodservices offering vegetarian meals routinely. Substantial growth in sales of foods attractive to vegetarians has occurred, and these foods appear in many supermarkets. This position paper reviews the current scientific data related to key nutrients for vegetarians, including protein, iron, zinc, calcium, vitamin D, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, vitamin A, n-3 fatty acids, and iodine.



A vegetarian, including vegan, diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, use of fortified foods or supplements can be helpful in meeting recommendations for individual nutrients. Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence.

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#6 Old 08-11-2008, 11:42 AM
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I'm not totally vegan yet



I like the sound of that...It means there is hope that it could happen.

"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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#7 Old 08-11-2008, 11:46 AM
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I've been vegan for three years and I'm honestly one of the healthiest people I know. I don't do it for that reason, but excellent health has been a wonderful side-effect!!!

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#8 Old 08-11-2008, 11:50 AM
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I like the sound of that...It means there is hope that it could happen.



Oh, it'll happen eventually. I'm just going the very gradual route.
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#9 Old 08-11-2008, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

You don't say clearly whether you are vegetarian or vegan or not -- if you are not you are not supposed to be on this forum. That's the rules.



I thought people who were looking into becoming vegetarians were welcomed to veggieboards.



Being vegan is certainly cheaper than eating meat everyday. Beans, nuts and tofu are cheaper than the cheapest meats. But to be fair, if someone doesn't know much about cooking and has to eat out and make a lot of frozen meals to survive, then yes, being vegan will be more expensive. Although if that's how you usually eat, you will have to worry about your health whether you are vegan or not!
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#10 Old 08-11-2008, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Shotgun Opera View Post

Also, how are you really minimizing your impact on the animal kingdom? To grow crops, land must be cleared and habitats destroyed. So it seems, to me, that you aren't really alleviating pressure on the natural world, just shifting it to a less visible spectrum.



Sorry to make this two post but I have to say:



This is my number one through ten reasons for being vegan!!!



We are destroying so much land, using so much water etc. to grow crops and crops of food so we can feed the animals that we eat. If we were to actually eat plant food, we would need to plant far fewer crops to produce the same amount of food that we now consume, like literally a tenth as many crops!



So I guess I'm mostly an environmental vegan. I worry that eating meat is terribly unsustainable and is wasting all of our resources, but you also make a good point. The habitats of animals are also destroyed by the need for more and more land to plant all this food.
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#11 Old 08-11-2008, 12:37 PM
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I thought people who were looking into becoming vegetarians were welcomed to veggieboards.



Good point. I should've said "if you are not veg*n and have no intention of becoming veg*n then you shouldn't be here."



Thanks for pointing that out.
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#12 Old 08-11-2008, 12:52 PM
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As for the nutrients you get from meat -- when push comes to shove, there aren't that many nutrients that are more abundant in meat than veggies.



Protein is the one people mostly focus on. Meat is definitely protein dense. But most Americans eat way more of it than they need; 50/60 g per day is good for most people. When I eat a varied plant diet, I find I get my 50 g pretty much by accident. If it worries you, make sure protein dense plant foods (beans, nuts, seeds, whole grains) show up a couple of times a day in your diet and you'll be golden.



B12 is the one you actually have to watch out for. It's not in plants; other animals get it from bacteria (which humans don't eat so much of these days). So you eat nutritional yeast, or fortified veg foods, or take a supplement for that.



Some minerals (iron, zinc, calcium) are easy to get in meat, but they're also pretty easy to get from plants. Greens and nuts especially will take care of these needs.



None of this is particularly hard or time consuming, except when you're new. When you started welding, you probably struggled and took a lot longer with jobs than you do now, yes? So if it feels as though you're spending a lot of time considering food at first, that really does naturally diminish as you get a good mental stockpile of tasty choices.



And if there are a couple of animal products you feel you can't do without, well... does it make a difference to a weight loss diet if the dieter cheats with one cookie or a whole bag? Heck yes! Start in with what you think you can do.
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#13 Old 08-11-2008, 12:58 PM
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None of this is particularly hard or time consuming, except when you're new. When you started welding, you probably struggled and took a lot longer with jobs than you do now, yes? So if it feels as though you're spending a lot of time considering food at first, that really does naturally diminish as you get a good mental stockpile of tasty choices.



That's an excellent analogy!



I wanted to post something about how we need to decide what we want to do and whether it's worth it -- if it is we'll work towards that goal. Becoming a good welder isn't something that happens overnight.



For me, I don't want to contribute to the needless suffering and death of animals so I do what I can to avoid that. I don't kick dogs, I don't drown rabbits, and I don't eat meat (or dairy or wear leather etc). No one can be perfect but we do should do what we can.
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#14 Old 08-11-2008, 03:06 PM
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That's an excellent analogy!



I wanted to post something about how we need to decide what we want to do and whether it's worth it -- if it is we'll work towards that goal. Becoming a good welder isn't something that happens overnight.



For me, I don't want to contribute to the needless suffering and death of animals so I do what I can to avoid that. I don't kick dogs, I don't drown rabbits, and I don't eat meat (or dairy or wear leather etc). No one can be perfect but we do should do what we can.





Well said





I've actually just recently switched to a vegan diet, and I keep that in mind. I'm doing what I can. It's a learning process, and as it was posted before, it takes time to learn. But taking the time to learn and following through is one of the most beneficial things you can do for yourself, the environment, and the animals.
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#15 Old 08-11-2008, 03:15 PM
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Good point. I should've said "if you are not veg*n and have no intention of becoming veg*n then you shouldn't be here."



Thanks for pointing that out.



Even that's not entirely true. We've had parents of young vegetarians coming here for help. If they are respectful, truly here to help their kids out and interested in vegetarianism they are welcome. We have a few older omnis that have been grandfathered in that do not fall into the "shouldn't be here" category, either.

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#16 Old 08-11-2008, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Shotgun Opera View Post

Ok, to get this out of the way this is not a pro-meat/pro-hunting post but is made in a genuine spirit of curiosity and desire for answers.



I've been told by a friend that I should try being Vegan, being a good friend I looked into it and I've come away with some confusion.



First, I dont fault people who are Vegan and make it work. However, from what I've seen, it seems that Veganism takes more time, energy, and money than most people are able/willing to devote to their diet to really follow it and stay healthy. How do you avoid nutritional deficiencies and other medical complications that can come from a lack of nutrients that meat provides?



Second, how can you totally replace all animal products with non-animal? I am a welder by trade and one of my key pieces of equipment is a leather jacket. Its made of thick treated leather that protects my skin from everything from UV damage to pieces of white hot steel falling on it. In the latter case it buys you a few seconds to get your arm out. Now there ARE plastics and treated cloths you can get for this purpose. But often they are extremely expensive and have a tendency to melt when exposed to high temperatures and also dont stand up to copious abuse well. In this case, leather really is the best and most cost effective material for the job.



Also, how are you really minimizing your impact on the animal kingdom? To grow crops, land must be cleared and habitats destroyed. So it seems, to me, that you aren't really alleviating pressure on the natural world, just shifting it to a less visible spectrum.



I really am interested in serious responses, thank you for your time



I eat vegan this is as far as I go. I said before on this blog that it is an unrealistic lifestyle.

I can only eat vegan because I can afford to. Organic is expensive and many veggie products even vegetables that are fresh.



On the taking up more energy,it does not for me since I only eat vegan. If my shampoo isnt tested on animals thats super but if I happen to have one which does not say I will still wash my hair.

I am not going to set unrealistic goals to be this ideal vegan because I would be bankrupt.

I just do what is within my means and thats it.



for some ppl a plant based diet is not realistic because or whatever...

you need that protective jacket and you would be a fool not to wear it until u can find a better alternative.



Some ppl honestly take veganism to this level that I myself cannot understand and it is almost obsessive and totally unrealistic and I am not being harsh I am being real and sometimes ppl write like if they live in a fantasy world where they would always have a job and money to afford these high priced things and that is not the case!



Do not get me wrong I love animals and I do not think that I should kill and animal to get a meal.

I find vegan food more delicious and better for my health.



I am against testing on animals but with all drugs and cures these things had to be tested on animals or ppl .

You just cannot put a product out there to kill ppl..but I do not agree with it being done on animals.

How do we get safe products out there without testing?

This is something I want answered.



I honestly believe that a plant based diet is the best diet for humans as cooked meat can cause a lot of complications and your body actually works harder to digest it.



If you ate raw rotting meat (forgetting abt the pathogens) it would do your body better as it is of a high nutritive value.

If you do some reading and plan your diet well you can get all the protein and nutrients you need.

I try to avoid tofu and stuff and I eat more peas and whole grains and veggies.

It is just adapting to this life.

It is not as hard as you think but some aspects are unrealistic and many of the ppl who write and say I avoid all animal products and I would never do this and never do that can only say never as they are not on the breadline as yet and lining up in soup kitchen.



If you had 6 kids and many bills to pay and you are a single parent. It is impossible to eat vegan and feed those 6 kids well.



Thats my take of this.

I do not call myself a vegan anymore I even plan to change that on my blog but I promote eating vegan and trying not to harm animals.
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#17 Old 08-11-2008, 03:48 PM
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If you had 6 kids and many bills to pay and you are a single parent. It is impossible to eat vegan and feed those 6 kids well.



I don't agree that that would always be the case. It may be your experience or that of someone you know, but it isn't always the case. In many parts of the world (certainly in many parts of America) it is often much cheaper to feed a big family an all vegan diet than an omni diet.

"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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#18 Old 08-11-2008, 03:51 PM
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Dried beans and rice is way cheaper than the cheapest meat.
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#19 Old 08-11-2008, 03:53 PM
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Yes, in most places that is the case. Someone living in a rural area with little non-animal farming may have a different experience, but that's not the majority of VB members at any rate.

"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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#20 Old 08-11-2008, 03:57 PM
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Even that's not entirely true. We've had parents of young vegetarians coming here for help. If they are respectful, truly here to help their kids out and interested in vegetarianism they are welcome. We have a few older omnis that have been grandfathered in that do not fall into the "shouldn't be here" category, either.



Good point. I should've said "if you're not veg*n or have no intention of being veg*n you should not be here unless you have children who are veg*n or who have the intention of being veg*n and you need some advice about those veg*n or intending to be veg*n children or if you're a non-veg*n who has been grandfathered/mothered in and you just changed your username with the approval of Michael or one of the mods".
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#21 Old 08-11-2008, 03:57 PM
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"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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#22 Old 08-11-2008, 04:57 PM
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However, from what I've seen, it seems that Veganism takes more time, energy, and money than most people are able/willing to devote to their diet to really follow it and stay healthy.

I've been experimenting with a mostly vegan diet and a leaning-toward-vegan lifestyle for the past six months, and I have certainly invested a lot of time, energy, and money in the endeavor. However, I feel that the time, energy, and money has been very well-spent, and at no point has it felt like work.



Part of what makes it fun for me is that I have some real-life friends who are not only vegan, but also new to it, so we've been able to explore it together. Some of these are my co-workers at the restaurant, so we share ideas for how to modify our free employee meals to come up with interesting new vegan combinations. One of my friends actually agreed to try a "half-vegan" diet with me; our original plan was for each of us to reduce our consumption of animal products by 50%, thereby making one whole vegan between the two of us. (Kind of silly, I know, but we were both caught between feeling like we had to do something and the fear that we just weren't up to going whole hog. Sorry, that was a terrible, unintentional pun.) To our surprise, we found it much easier and more exciting than we'd thought it would be, and we've both taken it much further than we'd planned. Every Tuesday night, we take a dance class together, then go back to one of our apartments to try out a new vegan recipe or two. We both can't get over how varied, tasty, and most notably, colorful our dinners have become! Since you're looking into this on the suggestion of a friend, you'll probably be able to enjoy a similar bonding ritual.



I was never much of a cook before, and I used to be pretty ignorant about nutrition in general, but I've enjoyed the learning process tremendously. I'm definitely eating better, and I have more energy than I used to. How much of this can be attributed to the vegan diet per se, I don't know, because I'm also eating a lot less processed food--I didn't just trade Cheetos for potato chips; I cut my chip consumption about 80% and filled the remaining 20% with things like homemade baked apple cider and sea salt kale chips, which I'm eating right now, as a matter of fact.

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How do you avoid nutritional deficiencies and other medical complications that can come from a lack of nutrients that meat provides?

I eat a wide variety of plants and fungi, and try to get some fruits, vegetables, grains, and legumes in my diet every day. I also take a B12 supplement once a week, when I remember. B12 deficiency can cause scary neurological problems, but you only need a few micrograms a day, and you don't need it every day--your liver can store several years' worth, so it's not an immediate danger. The one aspect of nutrition that probably taxes my attention the most is making sure I get enough calories. I'm one of those naturally slim gals, and within two or three weeks of giving up cheese, I'd lost five pounds on a frame that could maybe spare seven pounds before you can count my ribs. So I've had to really work on getting lots of nuts, avocados, coconut milk, olive oil, and other fatty vegan foods into my meals, plus lots of complex carbohydrates. This is one of those problems for which I get zero sympathy from my omnivore friends. ; )



Quote:
Second, how can you totally replace all animal products with non-animal? I am a welder by trade and one of my key pieces of equipment is a leather jacket. Its made of thick treated leather that protects my skin from everything from UV damage to pieces of white hot steel falling on it. In the latter case it buys you a few seconds to get your arm out. Now there ARE plastics and treated cloths you can get for this purpose. But often they are extremely expensive and have a tendency to melt when exposed to high temperatures and also dont stand up to copious abuse well. In this case, leather really is the best and most cost effective material for the job.

As others have said, no one is perfect. If you can't find a synthetic that will do this very important job as well as your leather jacket, I'll defend you against anyone who tries to take it away. I've drawn a similar line when it comes to testing on animals; I'm pretty sure I can find shampoo that didn't inflict any suffering in its research and development process, but if I ever need medicine that required the deaths of a few puppies, well, I'll feel bad, but I'm still going to take the medicine.



Quote:
Also, how are you really minimizing your impact on the animal kingdom? To grow crops, land must be cleared and habitats destroyed. So it seems, to me, that you aren't really alleviating pressure on the natural world, just shifting it to a less visible spectrum.

Others have said what I was first going to say, but I wanted to add that, again, no one is perfect; sometimes inflicting suffering and death is unavoidable. One can refuse to eat animal products, but by supporting industrial agriculture one still supports the clearing of land and the crushing of field mice. One can reject industrial agriculture and plant a backyard garden, but at some point other creatures are going to start competing for those plants, and you'll have to choose whether to let them devastate your harvest or do something to keep them from eating. Everyone draws a line somewhere between the suffering and death they feel is justified and/or necessary, and the suffereing and death they won't support. Some people like to imagine that theirs is the only legitimate place to draw the line, and that anyone who draws it more liberally is a cold-hearted killer while anyone who expects them to draw it more conservatively is being unrealistic. I think we all owe it to ourselves, our children, and the other creatures of this earth to examine our options with an open mind, and make the most compassionate and conservationist choices we reasonably feel we can. While that doesn't mean everyone's choices are above reproach, it does mean that reasonable people can disagree without either being objectively right or wrong.
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#23 Old 08-11-2008, 06:43 PM
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I think that in order to make sure you know what things you need to replace, from simple things like glycerine in soap and whether it is plant or animal-derived, to foods that one ate prior to going vegan, just do your best research. Key product names, like JASON, are an easy way to know for sure, or even going online to like vegan essentials could work.

I have been vegan for almost 5 years so things just seem so natural instinct rather than hastle for me. I don't remember not being vegan or vegetarian, or the memories I do have were neither better or worse than what I "have" to do know to ensure that my food, soap, lotions, clothing, etc are vegan.

As for health, if you are truly concerned, speak with an honest dietician or nutritionist. I say honest, because some are not well-versed in veganism as they might be in vegetarianism and might try to tell you it is not possible. I have just heard about situations like this and never personally experienced it, but they do occur. It is not hard really, and if you plan to go raw, there are just more things you should research before doing it.

I think the last comment about the environment, farmland is kind of ironic. If we eat lower or the food chain, then as vegans we are doing better for our environment than those eating higher up. And there were comments made about the acreage, which are both true and important.

If all else fails, read up on it. From _Vegan Freak_ a book to _Vegan With a Vengeance_ the cookbook, reading never hurts!
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#24 Old 08-11-2008, 06:46 PM
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o, and another thing, in terms of money, when i think about it i always say i don't smoke, i drink on occasion and i don't eat fast-food. I also take public transportation so in the end my food is not as much as those who eat out a lot, smoke, and the like.

in terms of your jacket, i live in maryland and about to move to dc, and although we have snow, i don't live in like minnesota or anyplace where blizzards are common-place. i keep warm, but leather is in no way necessary or wanted. so, i don't know what exactly you are looking for with that one...
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#25 Old 08-11-2008, 08:11 PM
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in terms of your jacket, i live in maryland and about to move to dc, and although we have snow, i don't live in like minnesota or anyplace where blizzards are common-place. i keep warm, but leather is in no way necessary or wanted. so, i don't know what exactly you are looking for with that one...



The jacket in question was for welding, not cold weather. It kept him safe from shards of metal, heat/sparks and the like.
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#26 Old 08-11-2008, 09:17 PM
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The jacket in question was for welding, not cold weather. It kept him safe from shards of metal, heat/sparks and the like.



Those jackets also keep omnis safe from vegans who are armed with shards of metal, heat/sparks and the like.
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#27 Old 08-11-2008, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

Those jackets also keep omnis safe from vegans who are armed with shards of metal, heat/sparks and the like.



Or just the wicked fires of righteous indignation and superiority.

"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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#28 Old 08-11-2008, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by *AHIMSA* View Post

Or just the wicked fires of righteous indignation and superiority.



Oh yes, I was metaphorically speaking of course.



The shards of an *Ahimsa* post.



The heat of Diana's anger.



The sparks of Sevenseas humor.



And the like of many of the other shard-sharp, heated, sparky vegans who have "the wicked fires of righteous indignation and superiority."



<----- metaphor
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#29 Old 08-11-2008, 09:37 PM
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"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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#30 Old 08-12-2008, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by *AHIMSA* View Post

I don't agree that that would always be the case. It may be your experience or that of someone you know, but it isn't always the case. In many parts of the world (certainly in many parts of America) it is often much cheaper to feed a big family an all vegan diet than an omni diet.



The case with me???? I do not even have kids...I feel a bit stereotyped here a tad and I am someone who never feels that way even in the worse of situations because I do not have that kind of mentality that I see some people have always calling the race card! I am a professional who has traveled all over the world. I am just making reference to the Caribbean which I know about than most places.

Yes there is a lot of food here like ground provisions but it cost more to produce than say South America.

Maybe I do not belong on this board as it is tailored for certain people and not for me from the Caribbean.

There is a lot of cheap meat in america selling like chicken but not here but people here feel more comfortable feeding their kids meat even if it more expensive. As for vegan products here it is more expensive to buy then say a subsidized can of corned beef so when you look at the lower class shopping cart and even some middle class they would opt for say corned beef as to a can of chick peas because it goes a longer way.People say to me all the time how can you afford to eat vegan all your life it is expensive and thats the plain truth. People who are working for minimum wage in the Caribbean can never thrive on this vegan diet unless they have their own stuff planted around them because you have ppl working for less than 100 usd per week in some islands. This is not the case with Barbados but even minimum wage it is unrealistic to feed your kids fruits all the time and veggies when the cost of those are sky high because they are not grown in the Caribbean. Even mangoes here are expensive and they grow here but ppl need to survive so they jack up the prices as the cost of living is going up.

It makes me very angry because it is foreign debt that has some countries in this situation and not making provisions for local farmers. Many countries end up in a situation where they have to open their market if they want the loan and take whatever price the larger countries are offering and it is unfortunate. If some of you really read the news you would understand that the Caribbean imports most things and the duty and taxes would be high on these specialty products that are produced in North America. Barbados and Trinidad make things but we still have to import from the states !Look at the situation with St Lucia and Chiquita bananas.

So AHIMSA you need to understand your ideas you are presenting to the board are not broad enough as your are speaking about America that has millions of ppl when other places have 200 thousand. If the demand is lower the price will go up. This is what I am trying to get across. It is more cheaper to buy 1 can veggies,macaroni, and a can of corned beef than to buy brown rice, chickpeas,salad,soymilk. I admit that ppl here live better than most places because of our advanced social security system and the fact that people here are highly educated but still even with a decent salary the average housewife will tell u that buying these veggies and fruits to support this vegan lifestyle will make them broke!

I am on this board and ppl speak like there is no world outside of the states so they dish out advice with a one size fits all mentality.

This one size fits all mentality is what has the world in the situation it is in. It pains me to see these types of messages here thats not the general case like you know how everyone in the world is living or the general price for a basket of goods.

The only way a vegan diet would work here and in the countries you label "third world" is if the person grows their own stuff and thats not the case. Many of you have enjoyed a fairly decent life and so have I but I am not going to sit here and say it is easy to do what I do here. No way!
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