Vegans and our animals - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 07-30-2008, 03:36 PM
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Sorry for all of the questions

It is just I do not know of any other vegans in Barbados but there are I know!

I just want to get some questions answered so please bear with me.



I know many of you have pets

I have 2 adorable dogs

In the past I saw many websites with vegetarians saying how their pets pref dogs are vegetarians.

If anyone has a dog like that how did you do it?

I guess from a pup right.

No dog is going to eat vegetables like that all their life

I really cannot imagine it. I am not being closed minded but lol

I know my dogs and I give then rice and carrots and stuff but a totally veggie dog.

That is one thing I never got vegetarianism on your pets.

I can understand kids but also leaving the door open for choice.

I do not want to force anyone to do anything just because I do it.
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#2 Old 07-30-2008, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bajanveggie83 View Post

Sorry for all of the questions

It is just I do not know of any other vegans in Barbados but there are I know!

I just want to get some questions answered so please bear with me.



I know many of you have pets

I have 2 adorable dogs

In the past I saw many websites with vegetarians saying how their pets pref dogs are vegetarians.

If anyone has a dog like that how did you do it?

I guess from a pup right.

No dog is going to eat vegetables like that all their life

I really cannot imagine it. I am not being closed minded but lol

I know my dogs and I give then rice and carrots and stuff but a totally veggie dog.

That is one thing I never got vegetarianism on your pets.

I can understand kids but also leaving the door open for choice.

I do not want to force anyone to do anything just because I do it.



It's an interesting topic isn't it?



I, myself, don't feed my dog a vegetarian diet because, mainly, I can't find vegetarian dog foods in my area and also, my mum is the one that buys the dog food for her (her name is Tawney! She's German Shepherd x Bull Mastiff x Rhodesian Ridgeback lol) and so I don't think I have a right to force my mum to buy it. It would have to be expensive and atm, we wouldn't be able to afford it. If I was the owner of my own dog, I'd probably feed it vegetarian dog food though.
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#3 Old 07-30-2008, 04:11 PM
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I've heard that dogs can do well on a vegan diet since dogs are omnivores. I used to have a coworker whose wife was a vet and he said that if your dog is a mutt, they'll probably do well on any kind of diet. He said that sometimes pure bred dogs can be prone to digestive problems (my mom's pappion has to have special hypoallergenic dog food.)
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#4 Old 07-30-2008, 04:50 PM
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i do not want to give my dog a vegan diet

I really find it unfair

maybe a vegetarian diet

Richie and Daniel love peanuts and cheese and some dairy products which they get as treats sometimes.

There are 5 years old and are mixed terriers and chihauhaus

is that the right spelling??

hmm

anyways

I gave Richie an apple last night for the first time and he ate it.

I was impressed because he has such expensive taste for a dog.

I def cannot give my dogs a vegan diet...

I am sorry who gets mad at me
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#5 Old 07-30-2008, 05:07 PM
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My dog is on Natural Balance vegetarian dog food which happens to just be vegan actually. He does fine on it. He used to eat kibbles and bits and we just chaged it about 5 months ago. The vet says its perfectly fine and a good brand too. Its good for dogs with allgeries too. Our dog is 3 years old and he still chews bones tho ad treats people give him. We have veg dog treats too name brand Old Mother Hubbard veg dog treats. The price I pay for a 15lbs pound dog food bag is 20$ at petco. It last about a month. My dog is 25lbs and he's a corgi sheltie mixed.

He loves to eat anything too and I mean anything he eats carrots, peas, rice, basically anything that fals on kitch floor while cooking.
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#6 Old 07-31-2008, 07:17 AM
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I have a cat, so there's no way I'd try to veganize her. However, I really have heard that dogs are omnivores and can thrive on a vegan diet.
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#7 Old 07-31-2008, 10:38 AM
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We have a dog. I don't think he would eat a vegan diet, just like my husband. He's definitely my husband's dog. BUT he does eat veggies. He loves cherry tomatoes, carrots, ect. He likes nuts, too. My husband shares his cheese with him, also.
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#8 Old 07-31-2008, 11:19 AM
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Dogs are carnivores and need a species appropriate diet to thrive. If you look at your dogs body then you should be able guess what his diet should mainly consist of. Plant matter in it's raw state cannot be processed by the dogs body and must be pulped or cooked to give any nutrition at all. Cooking alter the chemical make up of a food and there is evidence cooked grains (which are the base of most veggie dog foods) are responsable for the dramatic rise in canine cancer since the begining of this century. You wouldn't feed a cow a meat based diet so why feed a dog a plant based one?
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#9 Old 07-31-2008, 06:33 PM
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There's still a lot of controversy about vegan cat food, but I think most vegans agree that dogs have no problem on vegan diets. That is, diets that have been properly formulated to provide a complete nutritional profile.



Popular ones are V-dog, Evolution, and that one by Dick van Patten. Most people who try one of these foods are very happy with them, and even find that their dogs are much healthier and happier, often w/fewer allergies. The only difficulty I've heard of is that every once in a while, a dog might have digestive issues, in which case it's pretty obvious, and they just stop.



I've never heard of any dog who is successfully eating one of these diets becoming malnourished somehow. It's just that a lot of people don't want to try because they don't believe it's healthy. Just like with human beings.
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#10 Old 07-31-2008, 11:00 PM
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I don't believe a vegan diet is the optimal diet for dogs and cats, especially cats. So mine continue to eat meat and I continue to feel guilty when I buy their food.
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#11 Old 07-31-2008, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Glitterpixie View Post

Cooking alter the chemical make up of a food and there is evidence cooked grains (which are the base of most veggie dog foods) are responsable for the dramatic rise in canine cancer since the begining of this century.



I read much the same thing when I was researching what to feed my dog with lymphoma. Many "meat" dog foods available in grocery and discount stores are mostly grain as well and have been blamed, in part, for the increase in canine cancer, especially lymphoma.



Of course breed matters, too, but you can't ignore the diet link.
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#12 Old 08-01-2008, 01:41 AM
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Many "meat" dog foods available in grocery and discount stores are mostly grain as well and have been blamed, in part, for the increase in canine cancer, especially lymphoma.



That is why high grain foods, whether veggie and non veggie, should be avoided at all costs. Not many people are aware of the sheer amount of diesease that could be avoided by feeding a good diet.



Quote:
've never heard of any dog who is successfully eating one of these diets becoming malnourished somehow. It's just that a lot of people don't want to try because they don't believe it's healthy. Just like with human beings.



It's not about malnutrition, you can make paper nutrionally complete if you wanted to. It is the effect on the body that certain elements of the food have over time that can cause big problems in the long run.



How is it 'just like with human beings'? Compare the dentistry and digestive tract of a dog and human, they are very different and therefore need different diets.
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#13 Old 08-01-2008, 05:22 AM
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we do not buy those foods for our dogs from the store

maybe the dog biscuits

we cook meat a starch and vegatbles for them as a mixture

I do not think if the dog was wild he would go to the nearest garden to find something to eat.

Come on

It is not like they are eating what we have given them

I offered many times vegetables and dog safe fruits but they do not like them

they prefer meat

I will do some research on a digestive system of dogs and get back to u guys on that

Honestly I do not believe a vegan diet is a diet that dogs would enjoy

I understand that eating cooked meats is a predisposing factor to cancer saying this a raw diet including meat would be then optimal for dogs

It is not every grain a dog can eat and every fruit
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#14 Old 08-01-2008, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Glitterpixie View Post

It's not about malnutrition, you can make paper nutrionally complete if you wanted to. It is the effect on the body that certain elements of the food have over time that can cause big problems in the long run.



How is it 'just like with human beings'? Compare the dentistry and digestive tract of a dog and human, they are very different and therefore need different diets.



Most people don't seriously consider the possibility that a dog can thrive on a vegan diet. That's the concern that I was addressing w/the malnourishment comment - the popular conception that something is missing from a vegan diet. I think it's the same as the tremendous resistance that we STILL see regarding human vegan diets. People still believe it when they see claims that only animal products can provide essential nutrients for humans, too.



Of course dogs & humans need different diets. But we're both omnivores and can easily subsist on vegan diets. Those diets are different from each other, of course, but they can both be vegan. It may not be "natural" or traditional or even necessarily enjoyable, but we do it anyway. Is it "optimal"? In terms of both human and canine physiology, perhaps not. But I'd rather risk having some non-fatal health issue than deliberately choose to support the exploitation and abuse of any animals. And I would hope that many others would join me in that decision, and at the very least, everyone would respect it as a well-considered choice.



As far as preference goes, a lot of it is in how something is prepared, and how open we are to enjoying it. People have to experiment a lot before finding food their children will eat, so why do we refuse to experiment a little before giving up for dogs? If it's not fair to feed your dog a nutritionally complete and palatable vegan diet, how is it fair to feed your child a nutritionally complete and palatable vegan diet? Would you give up because he/she didn't like tofu? And for the record, every dog (and cat!) I've offered V-dog samples to has gobbled it up. My cat will "sit" to get a nugget of it.
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#15 Old 08-01-2008, 09:47 PM
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V-Dog's ingredients don't impress me all that much.



Ingredients:

Wheat, Whole Corn, Soybean Meal, Quinoa and Oats Wheat Middlings, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Oil, Beet Pulp, Pasta, Rice, Peas, Dicalcium Phosphate, Brewers Yeast, Whole Flaxseed, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Fructooligosaccharides, Rosemary, Parsley, Mineral Supplement (Iron sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite), Choline Chloride, Vitamin Supplement (Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Vitamin B12 supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D2 supplement, Folic Acid), Mixed Tocopherols



I'd pick a different brand, personally, like Natural Balance vegan formula.
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#16 Old 08-01-2008, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by panthera View Post

Most people don't seriously consider the possibility that a dog can thrive on a vegan diet. That's the concern that I was addressing w/the malnourishment comment - the popular conception that something is missing from a vegan diet. I think it's the same as the tremendous resistance that we STILL see regarding human vegan diets. People still believe it when they see claims that only animal products can provide essential nutrients for humans, too.



Of course dogs & humans need different diets. But we're both omnivores and can easily subsist on vegan diets. Those diets are different from each other, of course, but they can both be vegan. It may not be "natural" or traditional or even necessarily enjoyable, but we do it anyway. Is it "optimal"? In terms of both human and canine physiology, perhaps not. But I'd rather risk having some non-fatal health issue than deliberately choose to support the exploitation and abuse of any animals. And I would hope that many others would join me in that decision, and at the very least, everyone would respect it as a well-considered choice.



As far as preference goes, a lot of it is in how something is prepared, and how open we are to enjoying it. People have to experiment a lot before finding food their children will eat, so why do we refuse to experiment a little before giving up for dogs? If it's not fair to feed your dog a nutritionally complete and palatable vegan diet, how is it fair to feed your child a nutritionally complete and palatable vegan diet? Would you give up because he/she didn't like tofu? And for the record, every dog (and cat!) I've offered V-dog samples to has gobbled it up. My cat will "sit" to get a nugget of it.





Great post! Especially the bolded part. It's like in Obligate Carnivore when Jed Gillen says that if you won't switch your companion animal to a complete vegan diet then at least mix in some vegan foods to reduce the suffering. I always imagine the cow standing in front of me waiting to be slaughtered to become dog food. Not nice. But I do understand both sides of this discussion. I would like to see a lot more research go into vegan nutrition for dogs and cats (since companion animals will be with us for a long time to come).
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#17 Old 08-02-2008, 08:57 AM
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But we're both omnivores and can easily subsist on vegan diets.



That would be correct if dogs were omnivores and not carnivores http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html



Quote:
It may not be "natural" or traditional or even necessarily enjoyable, but we do it anyway. Is it "optimal"? In terms of both human and canine physiology



Humans evolved from apes that consumed a plant based diet while dogs evolved from a preditor and carrion scavanger. It is pointless comparing the two because there is very little to compare.



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But I'd rather risk having some non-fatal health issue than deliberately choose to support the exploitation and abuse of any animals



As far as I know cancer and organ failure brought on as a result of a bad diet can be very fatal.



Quote:
People have to experiment a lot before finding food their children will eat, so why do we refuse to experiment a little before giving up for dogs? If it's not fair to feed your dog a nutritionally complete and palatable vegan diet, how is it fair to feed your child a nutritionally complete and palatable vegan diet?



I would not feed a child something I knew was likely to directly bring about their death through preventable disease.



Quote:
And for the record, every dog (and cat!) I've offered V-dog samples to has gobbled it up. My cat will "sit" to get a nugget of it.



I have no doubt that my dogs would lap up any antifreeze I gave them, then they would drop dead.





Quote:
V-Dog's ingredients don't impress me all that much.



Ingredients:

Wheat, Whole Corn, Soybean Meal, Quinoa and Oats Wheat Middlings, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Oil, Beet Pulp, Pasta, Rice, Peas, Dicalcium Phosphate, Brewers Yeast, Whole Flaxseed, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Fructooligosaccharides, Rosemary, Parsley, Mineral Supplement (Iron sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite), Choline Chloride, Vitamin Supplement (Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Vitamin B12 supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D2 supplement, Folic Acid), Mixed Tocopherols



I'd pick a different brand, personally, like Natural Balance vegan formula.



Seriously panthera I would listen to wolfie and switch because I haven't seen much worse than that. Do some research into the effects of grain, soya and salt on dogs because you'll more than likely find that this food is gonna do some harm to your dogs.
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#18 Old 08-02-2008, 11:51 AM
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Glitterpixie, thanks for the omnivore myth link. I'll stop calling them "omnivores."



My central point, though, remains the same. Regardless of what we've eaten in the past, we are now capable of thriving on vegan diets. I'm really not an expert on specific brands, since I don't have any dogs in my care. Perhaps the Natural Balance vegan formula is the way to go.



My feline friend is eating half Vegecat pH and half Royal Canin SO formula because we haven't figured out how to be fully vegan w/o building up urinary crystals. But as the rawfood website says, dogs are extremely adaptable. Even non-vegetarian vets commonly find vegan diets acceptable for dogs.
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#19 Old 08-02-2008, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by panthera View Post


My feline friend is eating half Vegecat pH and half Royal Canin SO formula because we haven't figured out how to be fully vegan w/o building up urinary crystals. But as the rawfood website says, dogs are extremely adaptable. Even non-vegetarian vets commonly find vegan diets acceptable for dogs.



And how are you making sure your cat doesn't go blind?



http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/taurine.php
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#20 Old 08-02-2008, 12:22 PM
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I've never really thought of feeding my pets a vegetarian/vegan diet. It sounds a little outlandish.
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#21 Old 08-02-2008, 12:32 PM
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Some dogs seem to do quite well on a vegan diet:



http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0209...es/020918a.htm



That being said, we don't feed our dog a veg diet, and I would never even consider giving my cat a veg diet.
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#22 Old 08-02-2008, 12:37 PM
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My cat will have nothing to do with human food that isn't whipped-creamy, cream cheese-y, or tuna. But my dog likes apples



I can't imagine feeding my dog veg, but if it helps then hooray! I just think my dog enjoys his chicken treats too much.
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#23 Old 08-02-2008, 01:16 PM
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In the US there are commercially made vegetarian dog foods available that people can purchase for their dogs. That way there isn't so much concern about making sure their dogs are getting the right balance of nutrients. I would suspect this is not the kind of thing you would find in Barbatos! I would think that if whatever you're doing for your pets is keeping them happy and healthy -- keep doing it.

http://megatarian.blogspot.com
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#24 Old 08-02-2008, 02:12 PM
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Some dogs seem to do quite well on a vegan diet:



http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0209...es/020918a.htm







I don't think it's wise to decide that dogs thrive on a veggie diet because one website comes up with one unproven, unreplicated story. If we did based our diets on one case rather than real scientific fact then we should all be eating a diet of sausage and waffles http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...L&type=bondage
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#25 Old 08-02-2008, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Glitterpixie View Post

I don't think it's wise to decide that dogs thrive on a veggie diet because one website comes up with one unproven, unreplicated story. If we did based our diets on one case rather than real scientific fact then we should all be eating a diet of sausage and waffles http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...L&type=bondage



Please re-read my post. I never said all dogs would thrive on a vegan diet. Just pointing out an instance of one who seems to have.



How would one "prove" a story such as this? It was reported on in the media - and while the media can certainly not be relied upon to tell the whole truth about things, I wonder what they would gain in making up this story?



Here's another story of a dog that did quite well on a veg diet.



Of course it could be possible that these dogs benefited from eating homemade food as opposed to over-processed kibble. And it is possible that they would have lived long lives otherwise. But at the very least it shows that these dogs did well on the diet.



Whether or not dogs will thrive on a veg*n diet more so than on a meat based diet is a moot point. I think the question we should be asking is "will it/can it do them harm"?
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#26 Old 08-02-2008, 07:47 PM
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We have a cat and a rabbit. Well, the rabbit is the kids', and the cat was a stray we couldn't not feed. She now sleeps in my spot on the bed, so I guess she is "ours".



Rabbit is vegan, pellets, hay, and dried veggies, as well as garden prunings that are healthy foliage.



Cat is a carnivore. She is intended to be, she is a mouser, goes after birds, etc. In fact, she apparently felt the need to attack another cat, and broke a neighbor's screen to get to the other cat... so the poor thing is stuck inside now.



I think it would be cruel to take an animal that, in the wild, would live off the flesh of other animals after a hunt, and force that animal to eat veggie or vegan. It would be cruel to the animal you are feeding, and unhealthy. That being said, most pet foods are unhealthy too. It's all about finding a balance.
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#27 Old 08-03-2008, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DaraMarie View Post

And how are you making sure your cat doesn't go blind?



http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/taurine.php



I don't think very many people, let alone pet food companies, are not aware of the taurine issue! From

Vegecat for Vegan Cats



Quote:
Cats need dietary taurine, but significant quantities naturally occur only in animal tissues. A shortage causes blindness and heart disease. Most mammals biosynthesize vitamin A from the yellow pigment (carotene) found in vegetables. Cats lack this ability, making a dietary source of this vitamin, found naturally only in animal tissues, essential. Vitamin D is another essential vitamin, found naturally only in animal tissues as D3. The essential fatty acid arachidonate is rare in non-animal sources. Cats require it for numerous vital metabolic processes including reproduction. Vegecat products contain the rare nutrients mentioned above derived from non-animal sources, such as D2 from yeast. Recipes meet nutrient levels established by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) Cat Food Nutrient Profile for adult cats, without using any animal products.



The only peer-reviewed study of cats on nutritionally complete vegan diets found that blood levels of taurine and cobalamin were all w/in the reference range except a few who were not kept on the diet entirely, and these were still not actually deficient.





Is it cruel to feed a companion animal a diet that is not "natural"? If you think so, then the only things you should feed your cat are live rodents, birds, and insects. You should definitely stop feeding him or her conventional pet foods, which include
Quote:
include slaughterhouse waste products; 4-D meat (from dead, dying, diseased or disabled animals); old or spoiled supermarket meat; large numbers of rendered dogs and cats from animal shelters; old restaurant grease, complete with high concentrations of dangerous free radicals and trans fatty acids; damaged or spoiled fish, complete with dangerous levels of mercury, PCBs and other toxins; pathogenic bacteria, protozoa, viruses, fungi and prions, and their associated endotoxins and mycotoxins; hormone and antibiotic residues; and dangerous preservatives.

Vegepets Info - the facts about meat-based and vegetarian cat and dog diets Otherwise, stop demonizing vegan diets for being "unnatural." (*I'm not necessarily speaking to individual posters in this thread, at this point. I realize, for instance, that many of you are against conventional pet foods as well)



Most importantly for me is the fact that it's much crueler to force countless chickens, cows, pigs, salmon, etc. to live completely unnatural lives of unending torture and to die horrific deaths. If the cat I'm caring for seems to be in poor health, I can and will provide prompt veterinary care. In fact, I have adjusted her diet because of a medical condition. If I were being completely consistent, I would just let her deal with it, because she would still be suffering much much less than all those food animals, even the ones on less-inhumane farms.



I just don't see how people can criticize a nutritionally complete vegan diet more than a conventional pet food that everyone knows is full of unnatural, pathogen-ridden materials that directly require horrific suffering to manufacture.
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#28 Old 08-03-2008, 10:22 PM
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This is a really good article, by Andrew Knight BSc. (Vet. Biol.), BVMS, MRCVS. Funny intro!

Vegan Pet Food: Fishy Business?



Since this thread started out addressing mostly canine diets: here's a paper written by the same guy, but with lots more statistics and references

Vegetarian Canine Diets, which finds that

Quote:
· The longer a dog remains on a vegetarian or vegan diet, the greater the likelihood of overall good to excellent health.

· Veganism is more beneficial than vegetarianism.

· The longer a dog remains on a vegetarian or vegan diet, the less likely he or she is to get cancer, infections, hypothyroidism, or suffer from obesity.

· A vegetarian diet may increase urinary alkalinization, with its consequent potential for urinary stones, blockages and infections; hence regular urine pH monitoring and correction of alkalinization is important.

· The longer a dog remains on a vegetarian or vegan diet without supplementation of L-carnitine or taurine, the greater the likelihood of dilated cardiomyopathy or other cardiac disease.

· Nutritional yeast and garlic appear beneficial to overall health and coat condition.

· Dogs without soy foods in their diet appear healthier than those who eat soy.



*Dilated cardiomyopathy can be treated and should be prevented with supplementation of L-carnitine and taurine.





And finally, for some light-hearted reading, here are some personal stories: Case Histories of Veggie Dogs and Cats
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#29 Old 08-04-2008, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by fyvel View Post

Some dogs seem to do quite well on a vegan diet:



http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0209...es/020918a.htm



That being said, we don't feed our dog a veg diet, and I would never even consider giving my cat a veg diet.



You beat me to it I was just coming to post that story.



My dog is not vegetarian but I believe she'd be healthy and fine if she were. Healthy, monitored, vegetarian diets are fine for dogs. I'm still on the fence about cats but my cat isn't vegetarian either.



This has nothing to do with not wanting to "force my beliefs on others". I think that's silly as my beliefs are damn good ones lol. My children will be vegetarian from birth.
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#30 Old 08-04-2008, 03:46 AM
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Oh yeah, something else I noticed about the Natural Balance dog food: the company that makes it actually makes mostly meat-based foods, so it clearly is not trying to pick & choose facts that support a veggie diet. Those who are concerned that veggie dog foods are made by folks with an agenda that ignores the long-term health of the dogs involved would probably feel better about using that food.
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