Vegans and our animals - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 08-11-2008, 01:55 AM
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I'm not really sure what you mean by "natural". I think what you mean is that tuna is healthier than a vegan diet. It's not "natural" at all. Cats never, ever eat tuna in the wild. It's not "natural".



Since when have cats been wild? They are a domesticated species, to discover what is natural to them you have to look at the wild species from which they evolved and inherited their digestive tract. I believe this was a species of wildcat in egypt and I'm betting that they would have caught fish as part of their diet - some cats still do -http://www.vantasia.org/turk_folk.html

I personally would not feed tuna to a cat due to the high mercury levels.



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I can't dispute that. I know next to nothing about ferrets. I have read Obligate Carnivore and have some understanding of the issues involved with feeding cats and dogs a vegan diet. It's not all black and white.



Ferrets are one of the purest carnivores and must have an element of meat in their diet to live.



How mr sun would you have ferret-mommy feed her oblegate carnivores (snakes and ferrets)? They are on this earth now and there are millions more in rescue. Would you feed them a veggie diet and have them die? Would you feed them semi-veggie and have them die further down the line? Euthenise them to save more animals? Or feed them a completly meat based diet?
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#62 Old 08-11-2008, 06:42 AM
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I do what I can for all my animals. If I am to keep snakes, I have no option but to feed mice and rats to them. That comes with the package, I guess. So since I don't have an option on what to feed them, I try and make those destined to be their meals as comfortable as possible during their life.
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#63 Old 08-11-2008, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Glitterpixie View Post

Since when have cats been wild? They are a domesticated species, to discover what is natural to them you have to look at the wild species from which they evolved and inherited their digestive tract. I believe this was a species of wildcat in egypt and I'm betting that they would have caught fish as part of their diet - some cats still do -http://www.vantasia.org/turk_folk.html

I personally would not feed tuna to a cat due to the high mercury levels.



Perhaps they did catch some small species of river or lake fish. That is disputable. But that's like saying, hey my coyote catches and eats cats so I slaughter full grown lions from africa to feed my coyote because that's "natural". It's would NEVER happen in the wild so it's NOT "natural". These cats would NEVER catch tuna so it's NOT natural. And I would think that river fish would be even more different in its nutrional makeup (to look at the fish as a food-animal) than a domestic cat to a lion.







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How mr sun would you have ferret-mommy feed her oblegate carnivores (snakes and ferrets)? They are on this earth now and there are millions more in rescue. Would you feed them a veggie diet and have them die? Would you feed them semi-veggie and have them die further down the line? Euthenise them to save more animals? Or feed them a completly meat based diet?





The ones in rescue I would have euthanized. Why? Because I could never breed other animals continuously to feed one animal. It would be easier for me to just euthanize the one. And of course, the people who have ferrets in the rescue make the same distinction that Ferret_Mommy makes -- so they would never feed donate those ferrets to the hawk rescue to become prey. Just like in the SPCA they never feed cats and small dogs to the bigger dogs even though this mimicks one aspect of what happens in the wild.



With pets it is different because I understand the emotional attachment. But we aren't just talking about feeding pets -- we are talking about breeding more and more predators and then many, many more prey animals and pretending that this is natural. As I've said before, people who own pets don't want what's "natural" for their pets -- life in the wild is far too cruel.



But I've already said this Glitterpixie:



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Originally Posted by Mr. Sun View Post

I can understand someone feeding such a diet to pets that one currently has but to continue this on by breeding more predator animals... I just can't see that. I don't think you're horrible, lol, I just don't understand you.



But there is nothing here that is a pressing need:



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Originally Posted by Ferret_Mommy View Post

I love snakes and plan on breeding them.



That's just something that someone wants to do. And to me it seems very much out of touch with this:



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Originally Posted by Ferret_Mommy View Post

In the end, that does mean that rats and mice die. I never said I liked the idea of them meeting this end, but it is required for the well being of my animals.



It may be "required" for the well-being of her current animals but there is no requirement to breed more predator animals or to adopt more predator animals.
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#64 Old 08-11-2008, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Ferret_Mommy View Post

I do what I can for all my animals. If I am to keep snakes, I have no option but to feed mice and rats to them. That comes with the package, I guess. So since I don't have an option on what to feed them, I try and make those destined to be their meals as comfortable as possible during their life.



You do have an option on whether to breed more snakes or not. Just like one who breeds any animal could choose a different kind of animal to get -- the kind of animal that feeds on the ones that are currently the predators.



For instance, one who breeds dogs could decide to now breed hawks and take some puppies from the dog litters and leave them out for the hawk to catch.



But as I've said before: this all does not mimick nature. It only mimicks one aspect of life in the wild. People do not want all the aspects of life in the wild for their companion animals.
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#65 Old 08-11-2008, 02:41 PM
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Mr. Sun, you are awesome
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#66 Old 08-11-2008, 03:44 PM
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The ones in rescue I would have euthanized. Why? Because I could never breed other animals continuously to feed one animal. It would be easier for me to just euthanize the one.



It does disturb me that you would consider this the only way to deal with the moral issue that comes with feeding ferrets. Most of my ferrets diet comes from the huge numbers of mixy rabbits that die around here in the outbreaks. In the last mixy outbreak I found more dead rabbits than mine could ever eat in a year so the surplus went to friends and ferret rescue. The rest of my meat comes from the free wate products from the meat industry and as I can't see the vegan revolution coming any time soon then this remains a viable option for ferret keepers.



I would also like to see you go into a rescue filled with healthy, playful creatures so you can end their lives because their evolutionary past conflicts with your view of the world.
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#67 Old 08-11-2008, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by thalestral View Post

Mr. Sun, you are awesome



Thanks. Why don't others agree??? lol.



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Originally Posted by Glitterpixie View Post

It does disturb me that you would consider this the only way to deal with the moral issue that comes with feeding ferrets. Most of my ferrets diet comes from the huge numbers of mixy rabbits that die around here in the outbreaks. In the last mixy outbreak I found more dead rabbits than mine could ever eat in a year so the surplus went to friends and ferret rescue. The rest of my meat comes from the free wate products from the meat industry and as I can't see the vegan revolution coming any time soon then this remains a viable option for ferret keepers.



It disturbs you that I'm ignorant of the fact that you have dead animals that you can find to feed your ferrets? Wow. I'm ignorant about a lot of things so I hope you don't get more and more disturbed about what I don't know.





I'm not sure about the financial tie-ins with the waste from the meat industry. It's free? I thought they sold that stuff to pet food companies who resold it to whoever. If that's the case then I guess noone can really be faulted for killing the animals. One eat a piece of bacon, another buys a real pigskin football, another buys pig remnants from the slaughterhouse to feed the pets. Who's to blame? The meat industry is making money from it all (as far as I know -- once again I may be ignorant here to so please don't be too disturbed if I am).



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Edit: If you can make a case that no harm is brought to any animals by you having ferrets then I think that is a very good case. It seems you are making that case. The only tiny glitch I can see, and this is being picky, is that perhaps those wild dead rabbits would've been eaten by a different wild animal. And while your ferret is supplemented by the waste meat from the meat industry and is therefore protected from the "cruelty" of the wild, those wild scavengers are not so lucky and some of them will simply have to die due to lack of food. This is not something you'd accept for your ferret. But that is being picky, and once again, I'm rather ignorant of what goes on in the wild.

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I would also like to see you go into a rescue filled with healthy, playful creatures so you can end their lives because their evolutionary past conflicts with your view of the world.



I can assure you that if I went into play with one ferret and got to know that ferret and then I went into play with many, many mice and rats and then I was given the choice: feed the mice and rats over and over again to that ferret or inject the ferret once, I would choose to inject the ferret once. I'm not sure why you can't understand that. I don't think "nature" makes a distiction between one animal and another and in this case I can't either. So I choose the option that has the least killing.



You do make a distinction that "nature" doesn't make. You would never feed your ferrets to a hawk even though that is very "natural". So what should the hawk eat?



Breeding predator companion animals, imo, is wrong.



I can, as I've said a few times in this thread, understand why people feed meat to their companion animals but you simply cannot accept that someone (or a few of us) have a different perspective.
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#68 Old 08-11-2008, 04:25 PM
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I see that we are never going to see the point to each other's arguments and I'm pretty much done trying to discuss this with you. I want to breed my snakes and that is my decision.



Back to the discussion of vegan dog food and cat food. I don't believe it to be a very good idea. If we are going to use the argument that humans are meant to be herbivores based on our anatomy, then we cannot deny the fact that dogs and cats are meant to be carnivores based on their anatomy. The digestive tract of a dog is better suited for a meat-based diet. A cat, even more so. Some plant material is ok for dogs (not so much for cats) but it should not be the only ingredient in a dogs diet.
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#69 Old 08-11-2008, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferret_Mommy View Post

I see that we are never going to see the point to each other's arguments and I'm pretty much done trying to discuss this with you. I want to breed my snakes and that is my decision.



That's fine. It was just a discussion where we give our opinions.



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Back to the discussion of vegan dog food and cat food. I don't believe it to be a very good idea. If we are going to use the argument that humans are meant to be herbivores based on our anatomy, then we cannot deny the fact that dogs and cats are meant to be carnivores based on their anatomy. The digestive tract of a dog is better suited for a meat-based diet. A cat, even more so. Some plant material is ok for dogs (not so much for cats) but it should not be the only ingredient in a dogs diet.



I don't make the argument that humans are meant to be herbivores.



So for each animal (human or otherwise) I go by what diet is healthiest while causing the least harm. From what I've read, I think dogs can be healthy on a vegan diet and it causes the least harm so that's what I would feed a dog.



I wonder if anyone disagrees with me.
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#70 Old 08-11-2008, 06:07 PM
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It disturbs you that I'm ignorant of the fact that you have dead animals that you can find to feed your ferrets? Wow. I'm ignorant about a lot of things so I hope you don't get more and more disturbed about what I don't know.



I was disturbed by the fact that you reached for the big red kill the domestic carnivore button without seeming to consider that there could be any other options. Not only that but you specifically mentioned those 'in rescue', do they matter even less to you than other ferrets? I'm certainly not disturbed by your lack of knowlege but of the fact you could condemn a living, feeling creature so quickly without going to any lenths at all to consider alternatives.



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I'm not sure about the financial tie-ins with the waste from the meat industry. It's free? I thought they sold that stuff to pet food companies who resold it to whoever. If that's the case then I guess noone can really be faulted for killing the animals. One eat a piece of bacon, another buys a real pigskin football, another buys pig remnants from the slaughterhouse to feed the pets. Who's to blame? The meat industry is making money from it all (as far as I know -- once again I may be ignorant here to so please don't be too disturbed if I am).



I get all my meat for free. There is an enormous amount of waste from the meat industry and, as thin as their morals might be, if you chat up the right butcher or slaughterman then they are usually more than happy to give you any scraps that would otherwise go to waste. Most of the stuff that is wasted (bones, offal, meat scraps) Is just the sort of stuff that carnivores thrive on. I'm lucky that I live in a rural, farming area so I get more than my fair share of free byproducts but then I have more than my fair share of carnivores.



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Edit: If you can make a case that no harm is brought to any animals by you having ferrets then I think that is a very good case. It seems you are making that case. The only tiny glitch I can see, and this is being picky, is that perhaps those wild dead rabbits would've been eaten by a different wild animal. And while your ferret is supplemented by the waste meat from the meat industry and is therefore protected from the "cruelty" of the wild, those wild scavengers are not so lucky and some of them will simply have to die due to lack of food. This is not something you'd accept for your ferret. But that is being picky, and once again, I'm rather ignorant of what goes on in the wild.



Here rabbits are a non-native species and myxomatosis is not a natural diesease. The death toll when a bad outbreak of the diesease occurs is unreal, you can literally walk through a field and be tripping over dead and dying rabbits. Even without such outbreaks then the amount of carrion taken from the wild to feed a ferret is so small in the grand scheme of things that it is unlikely to make any real impact.



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I can assure you that if I went into play with one ferret and got to know that ferret and then I went into play with many, many mice and rats and then I was given the choice: feed the mice and rats over and over again to that ferret or inject the ferret once, I would choose to inject the ferret once. I'm not sure why you can't understand that. I don't think "nature" makes a distiction between one animal and another and in this case I can't either. So I choose the option that has the least killing.



But the world is not as simple as 1 ferret vs 20 mice. Animals do die naturally and one dead rabbit can feed a small critter like a ferret for a long time. We also have a meat industry, it's a fact of life. While there is byproducts from this industry that can be sourced free of charge then ferrets can be fed on them. Even if all slaughter stopped tommorow and the world went vegan then the animals remaining that die naturally could feed the world population of ferrets for a few hundred years.





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You do make a distinction that "nature" doesn't make. You would never feed your ferrets to a hawk even though that is very "natural". So what should the hawk eat?



The same things the ferrets eat.
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#71 Old 08-11-2008, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Glitterpixie View Post

I was disturbed by the fact that you reached for the big red kill the domestic carnivore button without seeming to consider that there could be any other options. Not only that but you specifically mentioned those 'in rescue', do they matter even less to you than other ferrets? I'm certainly not disturbed by your lack of knowlege but of the fact you could condemn a living, feeling creature so quickly without going to any lenths at all to consider alternatives.



Well, there is no big red kill button where I am so I actually didn't reach for it. Since this is a discussion the possibility is there that someone would see a flaw in my perspective. Seeing that flaw that someone might share. That someone did. I made the same statement about cats in another thread last year where there were people who seemed to know a lot about animals and the various options. Seeing as none of them offered the suggestion you gave it shouldn't be surprising that I would be unaware of that option and would conclude, at this time, that there simply are no other options.



If I had really been in that situation I would've certainly delved much more deeply into the issue to see what viable options there were. But if I had failed to find any I would've then pushed the big red kill button.







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I get all my meat for free. There is an enormous amount of waste from the meat industry and, as thin as their morals might be, if you chat up the right butcher or slaughterman then they are usually more than happy to give you any scraps that would otherwise go to waste. Most of the stuff that is wasted (bones, offal, meat scraps) Is just the sort of stuff that carnivores thrive on. I'm lucky that I live in a rural, farming area so I get more than my fair share of free byproducts but then I have more than my fair share of carnivores.



That's good to know. I hope others will at least consider this suggestion. VB Tom seems to be creative in looking for these kinds of options -- scraps from omni tables.







Quote:
Here rabbits are a non-native species and myxomatosis is not a natural diesease. The death toll when a bad outbreak of the diesease occurs is unreal, you can literally walk through a field and be tripping over dead and dying rabbits. Even without such outbreaks then the amount of carrion taken from the wild to feed a ferret is so small in the grand scheme of things that it is unlikely to make any real impact.



Instructing the ignorant is one of "The seven practices of Catholic charity toward our neighbors soul". You have done well.







Quote:
The same things the ferrets eat.



lol. In light of the rest of your answer my switcheroo on you doesn't work. But it does work for those who aren't as vigilant as you in looking for "less harmful" options. I still maintain that there are many people who have no problem contributing to harming other animals into the long future to feed their companion animals (and future companion animals) but would be horrified to offer their companions up for the same kind of feeding for a creature higher up in the food chain. I think it's good that they'd be horrified but then I would expect that they would see what changes they could make to be more consistent in how they treat all animals. No one can be perfect but we can at least recongnize inconsistencies and seek to put an end to those inconsistencies.



Good chatting with you Glitterpixie.
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#72 Old 08-16-2008, 09:48 AM
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Most people don't seriously consider the possibility that a dog can thrive on a vegan diet. That's the concern that I was addressing w/the malnourishment comment - the popular conception that something is missing from a vegan diet. I think it's the same as the tremendous resistance that we STILL see regarding human vegan diets. People still believe it when they see claims that only animal products can provide essential nutrients for humans, too.



I see your point, but the big difference here is that we are humans and they are dogs/cats. Our bodies and digestive systems are completely different. We have evolved to be able to thrive on a vegan/vegetarian diet. They have not. It doesnt get any plainer than that. Until I see solid scientific proof that dogs or cats can thrive on a vegan diet then I will not be imposing one upon my animals. When I adopted them I made a promise to myself to provide for them the best life possible. That is why they eat the highest quality food, with supplements, and a variety of add ins. I will not use my pets as "guinea pigs" to see if they will subsist on a vegan diet. I care more for them than that.



Do I care about all of the suffering that goes along with their diet? Yes. Am I aware of it? Yes. I hate that I am supporting that industry by making the choice to feed my companion animals the appropriate diet, but to me its neccesary. I am not a perfect vegan (by any means) and my goal is to lessen as much cruelty/suffering as possible. I do that by living a vegan lifestyle. I will never be able to say that I am not a part of the suffering of millions of animals unfortunately, because I do and always will have companion animals who require a meat based diet.



I do as much as I can, and I feel good about that. If I must continue to support an industry I abhore for the sake of my companion animals, then I shall. And when I see studies done that prove that dogs/cats can thrive on a vegan/vegetarian diet, then I will make the switch.
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#73 Old 08-16-2008, 11:14 AM
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Yea I always find this an interesting topic. I don't have any pets of my own yet, and often wonder when I do get one what I should do. Would it be unvegan of me to feed my animal a non-vegan diet? My boyfriend is not vegan or vegetarian and since it would be our dog, I just don't see it as an option. I would give them healthy snacks though. I have always wanted a snake, too, but then I don't know if I could handle the whole mice feeding!! That is a little too much for me I think.

I think children are different. I do not have any, but I think that can be more compromised as to what kind of diet/lifestyle the child would be raised with. Again, something I am WAITING to experience!
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#74 Old 08-17-2008, 06:56 AM
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I see your point, but the big difference here is that we are humans and they are dogs/cats. Our bodies and digestive systems are completely different. We have evolved to be able to thrive on a vegan/vegetarian diet. They have not. It doesnt get any plainer than that. Until I see solid scientific proof that dogs or cats can thrive on a vegan diet then I will not be imposing one upon my animals. When I adopted them I made a promise to myself to provide for them the best life possible. That is why they eat the highest quality food, with supplements, and a variety of add ins. I will not use my pets as "guinea pigs" to see if they will subsist on a vegan diet. I care more for them than that.



Do I care about all of the suffering that goes along with their diet? Yes. Am I aware of it? Yes. I hate that I am supporting that industry by making the choice to feed my companion animals the appropriate diet, but to me its neccesary. I am not a perfect vegan (by any means) and my goal is to lessen as much cruelty/suffering as possible. I do that by living a vegan lifestyle. I will never be able to say that I am not a part of the suffering of millions of animals unfortunately, because I do and always will have companion animals who require a meat based diet.



I do as much as I can, and I feel good about that. If I must continue to support an industry I abhore for the sake of my companion animals, then I shall. And when I see studies done that prove that dogs/cats can thrive on a vegan/vegetarian diet, then I will make the switch.



I agree with you...Even a few studies will not convince me to make the switch. You cannot compare a human to a dog and cat..Animals are smarter than us and they make the choice that is right for them and a vegan diet for dogs is for a lack of a better word crazy!

I feel a little sorry for dogs who go through that because it is not made for them.Humans are omi so we can eat either way. This is a simple biology lesson and dogs will always choose meat over plants because of the higher nutritive value and even if u make it balanced like how we eat our vegan meals it is still not enough..these animals are flesh eaters why do we want to play God here..it is a bit much..you should not mess with an animals natural diet like that ..even me feeding my dog now cooked staples like rice and cooked meat is messing with them as they in their natural habitat would prefer to eat raw flesh..we have domesticated dogs but to change their diet is a different thing...we say we want to do the best for animals but do not forget that there are many things dogs are allergic to in the plant world ...I am against feeding animals like dogs a vegan diet..yes I am contributing to the suffering of animals but in the wild as we speak there is predator and prey and no one is saying anything..
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#75 Old 08-17-2008, 09:29 AM
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I agree with you...Even a few studies will not convince me to make the switch. You cannot compare a human to a dog and cat..





Every creature is different and yet people keep putting dogs and cats into the same catagory. You cannot "compare" them or put them in the same catagory. People who have researched the matter with both dogs and cats say it's much easier to keep a dog healthy on a vegan diet than a cat.



Anyway, the comparison that panthera was making was this: for many years, and even up to today, there are so many people who insist that humans cannot be vegan and healthy. And yet when the issue is looked at more closely it is obvious that they can be. It's not about what chimps eat in the wild or other primates eat in the wild -- it's a health issue. Can humans be healthy on a vegan diet? Yes. This doesn't mean we can assume that other groups (felines and canines) of animals can be healthy on a vegan diet? No. It proves that we don't need to look at chimps, our closest dna match in the wild and see what they eat.



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I feel a little sorry for dogs who go through that because it is not made for them.Humans are omi so we can eat either way. This is a simple biology lesson and dogs will always choose meat over plants because of the higher nutritive value and even if u make it balanced like how we eat our vegan meals it is still not enough..these animals are flesh eaters why do we want to play God here..



And yet people do play God here. In the wild the predator animals often die of starvation because of the cyclical nature of the prey population. But humans step in and play God and say that the predator animal must not starve to death -- so most often the human financially supports the slaughter industry to make sure that doesn't happen.



The whole idea of we shouldn't "play God" or that we should "see what happens in the wild and mimic that" is only pulled out on this one issue.



Quote:
yes I am contributing to the suffering of animals but in the wild as we speak there is predator and prey and no one is saying anything..



Yes I am saying something: the life you see in the wild is NOT something you'd want for your pets.





If people conclude that feeding a vegan diet to dogs means that the dog will suffer then find a diet that you feel is appropriate. But don't pull out a bunch of silly arguements again and again.



This a health issue and a compassion issue. If one, after doing some research, feels that a vegan diet for dogs is appropriate and helps reduce the awful suffering of the animal-slaughter industry then that's fine.



If someone like Glitterpixie reads up on tuna and finds that it's inappropriate for cats due to the high mecury levels then that's a fair assessment. If another one concludes that tuna is ok then that's fine -- even though cats would never catch a tuna in the wild.



I can understand people debating the health issue and the compassion issue --- but the "in the wild" and the "playing God" parts of the debate don't have much relevance unless the animal is actually living in the wild.
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#76 Old 08-17-2008, 02:10 PM
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Every creature is different and yet people keep putting dogs and cats into the same catagory. You cannot "compare" them or put them in the same catagory. People who have researched the matter with both dogs and cats say it's much easier to keep a dog healthy on a vegan diet than a cat.



Anyway, the comparison that panthera was making was this: for many years, and even up to today, there are so many people who insist that humans cannot be vegan and healthy. And yet when the issue is looked at more closely it is obvious that they can be. It's not about what chimps eat in the wild or other primates eat in the wild -- it's a health issue. Can humans be healthy on a vegan diet? Yes. This doesn't mean we can assume that other groups (felines and canines) of animals can be healthy on a vegan diet? No. It proves that we don't need to look at chimps, our closest dna match in the wild and see what they eat.







And yet people do play God here. In the wild the predator animals often die of starvation because of the cyclical nature of the prey population. But humans step in and play God and say that the predator animal must not starve to death -- so most often the human financially supports the slaughter industry to make sure that doesn't happen.



The whole idea of we shouldn't "play God" or that we should "see what happens in the wild and mimic that" is only pulled out on this one issue.







Yes I am saying something: the life you see in the wild is NOT something you'd want for your pets.





If people conclude that feeding a vegan diet to dogs means that the dog will suffer then find a diet that you feel is appropriate. But don't pull out a bunch of silly arguements again and again.



This a health issue and a compassion issue. If one, after doing some research, feels that a vegan diet for dogs is appropriate and helps reduce the awful suffering of the animal-slaughter industry then that's fine.



If someone like Glitterpixie reads up on tuna and finds that it's inappropriate for cats due to the high mecury levels then that's a fair assessment. If another one concludes that tuna is ok then that's fine -- even though cats would never catch a tuna in the wild.



I can understand people debating the health issue and the compassion issue --- but the "in the wild" and the "playing God" parts of the debate don't have much relevance unless the animal is actually living in the wild.



Mr Sun

I must say I like your spunk...Your argument is sound in parts and some of what you said like cats never catch tuna in the wild was something I was thinking about. I said in my post that what we feed our dogs such as cooked poultry and rice is not natural either.

Did you not hear when I said that.. even the whole aspect of domestication can be argued that it is unnaturaL by some.

I will take the wild out of my argument then ...

I have not read all your post but you have a dog or cat?

What are your currently feeding them if that is not too personal.

I really do not mind a vegetarian diet for a dogs as they can have their eggs and cheese and veggies and whole grain but the vegan dishes..what can I prepare for my dog that is vegan that is safe for him to eat??

I read a few post where you speak about this commercial dog food is that what vegans are giving their animals??
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#77 Old 08-17-2008, 02:32 PM
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Mr Sun

I must say I like your spunk...Your argument is sound in parts and some of what you said like cats never catch tuna in the wild was something I was thinking about. I said in my post that what we feed our dogs such as cooked poultry and rice is not natural either.

Did you not hear when I said that.. even the whole aspect of domestication can be argued that it is unnaturaL by some.

I will take the wild out of my argument then ...



Right, you did say mention the "unnaturalness" of domestication and then went on to ignore your point. It's not like it is in the wild so let's put those arguments aside: that's all I'm saying. Let's focus on the health aspect and the compassion aspect of this issue. Lots of people have made points on health and "reducing suffering" in this thread and those points are to be considered. I'm not saying someone should agree with one perspective or another but just that we should quit talking about what animals eat and do in the wild.





Quote:

I have not read all your post but you have a dog or cat?



No. I live with a shelter-rescued rabbit.



Quote:

What are your currently feeding them if that is not too personal.



If I get a dog I feel that I'll feed him on a vegan diet. I've read Obligate Carnivore and I feel Jed makes some excellent points. But I'd like to read more from others before I'd get a dog and feed him a vegan diet.



Quote:

I really do not mind a vegetarian diet for a dogs as they can have their eggs and cheese and veggies and whole grain but the vegan dishes..what can I prepare for my dog that is vegan that is safe for him to eat??



I don't know. Panthera's posts (from what I remember) mention vegan dog foods. I also think that some of those here who are not feeding dogs a vegan diet have recommended a certain brand(s) of veg*n dog food that is better than others. They may not be convinced that those brands can keep a dog healthy but they are more convinced that certain brands should just not be used at all. (I hope I understand them correctly).



Anyway, Bajan, this is a decision you have to make. I really don't know enough about vegan diets for dogs to comment on that. I just like debates to focus on the real issues instead of being diverted into things like "chimps eat monkies so humans should eat cows" or "lions eat zebras so cats should eat tuna".



I'm really glad that you are taking the time to look into this issue so deeply. Whatever you decide to feed your dog(s) it cannot be said of you that you didn't consider the different options out there that address both the health and 'compassion towards all animals' issues that are faced by people who have dogs and/or cats. I like it when people struggle with this and I can say that I do appreciate the perspective of those who have put a lot of thought into what to feed their companion animals and who feed their companion animals other animals that have been slaughtered.



We don't have to agree but we should at least look closely at what others are saying to see if there is any merit there.
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THE CRAZY ANONYCAT and HER FEEBLE, MALNOURISHED SIDEKICKS

...dry nose (hers) and strung out look (mine) due to long day at beach.



My 7 yr old & 5 year old 100% vegan dogs are very healthy and happy.

Nobody can believe my 7 yr. old is as old, because she runs around, hops, and plays with the energy of a puppy (despite her monstrous size & elbow dysplasia common to her breed).



Must say... I'm a bit chafed by the implications that it is somehow abusive or negligent to nourish dogs with a well-balance, specially tailored vegan diet. My bulldog was abused before he came to me, and veterinarians and vet technicians have used that special buzzword that you all seem to like ("thrive"), when describing his health, now, under my care (and all on a vegan diet (~_^)b). He has been a vegan since he was about 8 mo. old. My 7 yr. old has been most of her life, too.



I have known several vegan dogs, in my life, (this includes a 15 yr. old golden retriever/collie mix, a 9 yr old lab, a 12 yr old beagle/lab mix, an 8 yr old mystery mix... to name a few) and none of them have ever had health problems, beyond the random ear infection or other minor thing.



My sister and her partner have a meat eating dog that just had her second operation to remove cancer and will be undergoing her second round of chemo.

I've gone to the canine oncology center a few times with them (very sad (-_-)) and met lots of really sick dogs.

Some of them were raw fed, none of them were vegan.

My sister had another dog that literally dropped dead mid sprint from heart failure. My parents dog died of cancer.



I do not give these examples to "prove" that a carnivorous/omnivorous diet is inferior, but to say, "where the hell is the examples of these malnourished, cancer riddled vegan dogs or even ones that are, somehow, not thriving quite as much as their omnivorous friends?" I've never read about or seen any. I am sure there are vegan dogs with cancer out there, but I do not believe it is directly caused by a lack of meat.



What makes some of you believe so vehemently that your dogs are healthier or "thrive" more on their diets? The shape of their teeth?

My dogs play with many others and there is NO difference in behaviors, energy levels, etc. that is not specific to their breed. Their former and new vets (we've moved) have always raved about their health... blood work and fecal analysis have always been good and balanced. (And these are NOT vegan or vegetarian vets. They both sell dog food with meat, but they also both see(n) vegan dogs that are happy and healthy (other than mine), so they don't come round wagging their fingers at me.)



I find it humorous that many of you keep regurgitating the "this is what's natural", "that is unnatural" line of prose. Your dogs are not in their natural environment.

As Mr. Sun repeatedly made a good case for, you are not replicating nature- you are subverting it (which is, ironically, the very thing you are using to look down your noses at those who choose a vegan diet for their dogs).

As pack leader, YOU choose the food your dog eats. But you do not go into nature and hunt down a life that has been allowed its freedom and health and sanity and chance for escape/survival. You pay people to manufacture life that is wasted, caged, neglected, and abused and then harvested, all for your convenience and your dog's benefit.



Deciphering the necessary nutrients for an organism to survive (and even thrive (~_^)b) is a science... the chemistry of nutrition. Canines evolved physical and behavioral characteristics that are similar to that of other omnivores, that were heavily dependent on meat, because that was the main source of certain necessary nutrients in their immediate environment.



Tell me even 1 way, in which, your meat-eating dogs are healthier or "thriving" better than mine or my vegan friends' companion animals.

I will bet my left tit that you cannot find even a negligible answer, such as shinier coat, much less one that would even come close to justifying the enslavement, abuse, suffering, and slaughter of other animals.
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#79 Old 08-17-2008, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by anonycat;2036534My 7 yr old & 5 year old 100% vegan dogs are very healthy and happy.

Nobody can believe my 7 yr. old is as old, because she runs around, hops, and plays with the energy of a puppy (despite her monstrous size & elbow dysplasia common to her breed).



Must say... I'm a bit chafed by the implications that it is somehow abusive or negligent to nourish dogs with a well-balance, specially tailored vegan diet. My bulldog was abused before he came to me, and veterinarians and vet technicians have used that special buzzword that you all seem to like ("thrive"), when describing his health, now, under my care (and all on a vegan diet (~_^)b). He has been a vegan since he was about 8 mo. old. My 7 yr. old has been most of her life, too.



I have known several vegan dogs, in my life, (this includes a 15 yr. old golden retriever/collie mix, a 9 yr old lab, a 12 yr old beagle/lab mix, an 8 yr old mystery mix... to name a few) and none of them have ever had health problems, beyond the random ear infection or other minor thing.



My sister and her partner have a meat eating dog that just had her second operation to remove cancer and will be undergoing her second round of chemo.

I've gone to the canine oncology center a few times with them (very sad (-_-)) and met lots of really sick dogs.

Some of them were raw fed, none of them were vegan.

My sister had another dog that literally dropped dead mid sprint from heart failure. My parents dog died of cancer.



I do not give these examples to "prove" that a carnivorous/omnivorous diet is inferior, but to say, "where the hell is the examples of these malnourished, cancer riddled vegan dogs or even ones that are, somehow, not thriving quite as much as their omnivorous friends?" I've never read about or seen any. I am sure there are vegan dogs with cancer out there, but I do not believe it is directly caused by a lack of meat.



What makes some of you believe so vehemently that your dogs are healthier or "thrive" more on their diets? The shape of their teeth?

My dogs play with many others and there is NO difference in behaviors, energy levels, etc. that is not specific to their breed. Their former and new vets (we've moved) have always raved about their health... blood work and fecal analysis have always been good and balanced. (And these are NOT vegan or vegetarian vets. They both sell dog food with meat, but they also both see(n) vegan dogs that are happy and healthy (other than mine), so they don't come round wagging their fingers at me.)



I find it humorous that many of you keep regurgitating the "this is what's natural", "that is unnatural" line of prose. Your dogs are not in their natural environment.

As Mr. Sun repeatedly made a good case for, you are not replicating nature- you are subverting it (which is, ironically, the very thing you are using to look down your noses at those who choose a vegan diet for their dogs).

As pack leader, YOU choose the food your dog eats. But you do not go into nature and hunt down a life that has been allowed its freedom and health and sanity [b
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and chance for escape/survival[/b]. You pay people to manufacture life that is wasted, caged, neglected, and abused and then harvested, all for your convenience and your dog's benefit.



Deciphering the necessary nutrients for an organism to survive (and even thrive (~_^)b) is a science... the chemistry of nutrition. Canines evolved physical and behavioral characteristics that are similar to that of other omnivores, that were heavily dependent on meat, because that was the main source of certain necessary nutrients in their immediate environment.



Tell me even 1 way, in which, your meat-eating dogs are healthier or "thriving" better than mine or my vegan friends' companion animals.

I will bet my left tit that you cannot find even a negligible answer, such as shinier coat, much less one that would even come close to justifying the enslavement, abuse, suffering, and slaughter of other animals.



Yeah, but tell us how you really feel...







lol
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#80 Old 08-18-2008, 08:10 AM
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Must say... I'm a bit chafed by the implications that it is somehow abusive or negligent to nourish dogs with a well-balance, specially tailored vegan diet. My bulldog was abused before he came to me, and veterinarians and vet technicians have used that special buzzword that you all seem to like ("thrive"), when describing his health, now, under my care (and all on a vegan diet (~_^)b). He has been a vegan since he was about 8 mo. old. My 7 yr. old has been most of her life, too.





I respect your choice to feed your dogs a vegan diet, just as I respect your choice to be a vegan yourself. I am sure your dogs are not malnourished or sick. But I personally dont believe that the ideal diet for dogs is a strictly vegan one. I think this arguement is one of pure personal belief. We choose to feed ourselves and our companions in a way in which we feel is best for us and for them. If you feel your dogs are healthy and thriving on a vegan diet, then thats great. I do not feel it is safe to try and feed my dog a diet based on grains, when thousands of years of evolution have had her ancestors eating a primarily meat based diet. Like I mentioned previously, if I saw some studies done that show clearly that putting my dog on a vegan diet would not be a danger to her health, then I will certainly make the switch. Although my cats will never be vegan.



Of course what we are feeding our animals is not "natural" (Im not even sure what that means). They are a domesticated animal, whom we have changed completely throughout the years. But their bodies are designed (more so than ours) for a meat based diet. Their teeth, their intestinal tract, are designed for eating meat. So ideally a diet that mimics one that their ancestors ate would be a raw diet. And even that is a stretch. Kibble and processed dog food is not natural, but its what is normal for our society. I have seriously considered feeding my dog a raw diet, as I believe this is an extremely healthy choice, but I just cant do it. I have always hated seeing and handling meat. So for now she stays on a dry food/wet food based diet.
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#81 Old 08-18-2008, 05:04 PM
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I respect your choice to feed your dogs a vegan diet, just as I respect your choice to be a vegan yourself. I am sure your dogs are not malnourished or sick. But I personally dont believe that the ideal diet for dogs is a strictly vegan one.



That's cool. I do disagree with you, but disagreement does /not/ bother me. I am all for healthy discussion or debate, and I can definitely handle it when others do not share or even completely oppose my beliefs. (Had a lifetime of practice. )

Insinuating that I do not have my pack's best interest at heart, or that I somehow abuse them, or deprive them nutrition, and should therefore not have them irritates me.

If it's not clear that these sentiments I've expressed were not directed at you, personally, I'll state that now. There is a reason I did not address it to anyone, in particular. I was not put off by anyone's opinion or post, as a whole. It was the expressed ideas (whether vague or more direct) limited to a sentence here and there, throughout, that left a bad taste in my mouth.



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Originally Posted by USFveggie View Post


If you feel your dogs are healthy and thriving on a vegan diet, then thats great. I do not feel it is safe to try and feed my dog a diet based on grains, when thousands of years of evolution have had her ancestors eating a primarily meat based diet. Like I mentioned previously, if I saw some studies done that show clearly that putting my dog on a vegan diet would not be a danger to her health, then I will certainly make the switch...

They are a domesticated animal, whom we have changed completely throughout the years. But their bodies are designed (more so than ours) for a meat based diet. Their teeth, their intestinal tract, are designed for eating meat. So ideally a diet that mimics one that their ancestors ate would be a raw diet. And even that is a stretch.



I choose to feed them based on observation (of my dogs and several others) and instruction from veterinarians and those well versed and educated in canine nutrition, rather than how they evolved, based on environment that they are no longer (under our care) dependent on.

That is why I said: "Canines evolved physical and behavioral characteristics that are similar to that of other omnivores, that were heavily dependent on meat, because that was the main source of certain necessary nutrients in their immediate environment."

I do not believe that this means meat is the only source that can provide them these nutrients. Every veterinarian I have spoken with about this has agreed.



I, of course, do not think a diet containing meat is bad or unhealthy or wrong for my dogs... I think the industry that supplies that meat is bad and unhealthy and wrong for the animals it turns into meat. That is at the core of why I am a vegan. If those who are actually educated on the matter and 15 years of experience tells me that canines can and are perfectly healthy and thriving on a vegan diet, then I can soundly bring canines into my home and care for them, while staying true to my convictions and not causing any unnecessary harm/suffering/death.



I was also just completely confused by this thread, because I do not understand how anyone who buys meat or animal products to feed their animal(s) is a vegan. (The title of this thread is "Vegans and our animals".) I understand that people cut out animal products for all sorts of reason (health/environment), not just AR, and I wholly support any reason one has and any extent they are willing to take it to.

But by it's very definition, veganism excludes those who use animals and their various parts and secretions for any reasons, even if it is more "natural", etc. Of course no one can be perfect (and no one should have that expectation), but it is a giant leap to cross the chasm between, say, paying to see a film (gelatin) and supporting institutionalized, speciesist cruelty.

That's all I'm saying.
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#82 Old 08-18-2008, 05:09 PM
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Yeah, but tell us how you really feel...







lol



(^_^)



I get all tangential when writing. I can't help but being a bit wordy.

Also,... maybe I shouldn't post when I'm feeling so... erm... heated.
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#83 Old 08-19-2008, 04:49 AM
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My 7 yr old & 5 year old 100% vegan dogs are very healthy and happy.

Nobody can believe my 7 yr. old is as old, because she runs around, hops, and plays with the energy of a puppy (despite her monstrous size & elbow dysplasia common to her breed).



Elbow dysplacia is genetic and does not occur because of diet. And size has little to do with how well a dog plays (unless you mean she is overweight)



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My sister and her partner have a meat eating dog that just had her second operation to remove cancer and will be undergoing her second round of chemo.



Is there any evidence that the cancer was diet related? Cancer can come about due to both genetic and enviromental factors. Feeding a good diet reduces the risk significantly but does not eliminate it. If you do not have any evidence that the cancer was related to meat eating then it's just scaremongering.



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What makes some of you believe so vehemently that your dogs are healthier or "thrive" more on their diets? The shape of their teeth?



Because they are carnivores, simple as that. Cows are herbivores, what do you think they thrive on?



Quote:
Their former and new vets (we've moved) have always raved about their health... blood work and fecal analysis have always been good and balanced. (And these are NOT vegan or vegetarian vets. They both sell dog food with meat, but they also both see(n) vegan dogs that are happy and healthy (other than mine), so they don't come round wagging their fingers at me.)



The problem is that vets are used to seeing dogs fed poor diets, the vast majority of dogs in the western world are fed poor diets. It is no coincidence that in the years since commercial pet food was first marketed then diesease among dogs and cats has increased beyond belief. I am not going to defend a commercial food just because it contains meat as they can contribute to the overall decline in canine health significantly, no doubt about it. The fact your vets sell commercial food (no doubt manufactured by purina and the like) to promote health suggests they're blinkered to this. Your dogs may be above 'normal' healthwise but 'normal' healthwise in dogs these days is far, far bellow what it should be.



Quote:
I find it humorous that many of you keep regurgitating the "this is what's natural", "that is unnatural" line of prose. Your dogs are not in their natural environment.



Being out of their natural enviroment does not change their biological makeup. Putting a cow in a shed does not change its biological makeup. Putting a human in a house does not change its biological makeup. I feed my dogs what is most biologically appropriate.



Quote:
As Mr. Sun repeatedly made a good case for, you are not replicating nature- you are subverting it (which is, ironically, the very thing you are using to look down your noses at those who choose a vegan diet for their dogs).



In nature my dogs would eat raw dead animals so my dogs eat raw dead animals. How the animals got there is a different matter.



Quote:
As pack leader, YOU choose the food your dog eats.



I do choose what they eat but I'm no pack leader. To be a pack leader I need to be a dog, since I am not a dog I prefer to describe myself as a human partner or companion. Sorry it's totally unrelated to the topic but I hate the term 'pack leader' when applied to a human.



Quote:
But you do not go into nature and hunt down a life that has been allowed its freedom and health and sanity and chance for escape/survival. You pay people to manufacture life that is wasted, caged, neglected, and abused and then harvested, all for your convenience and your dog's benefit.



I agree this is an issue but it is one that is easy to resolve by either not having a dog, hunting with your dog or feeding your dog the waste products of the human meat industry.



Quote:
Canines evolved physical and behavioral characteristics that are similar to that of other omnivores, that were heavily dependent on meat, because that was the main source of certain necessary nutrients in their immediate environment.



Dogs are CARNIVORES and not omnivores, there is no real evidence to suggest otherwise. The enviroment they evolved in was the same one as herbivores such as deer did, omnivores such as wild boar did and was the same one that humans evolved in too. You do know tthat dogs do not have the biological ability to digest unprocessed raw plant matter don't you? Even if all the necessary nurtients were available in the plant enviroment (which would have been an impossibility because dogs require certain elements that can ONLY be found in meat or produced sythetically) then dogs could simply not obtain them.





Quote:
Tell me even 1 way, in which, your meat-eating dogs are healthier or "thriving" better than mine or my vegan friends' companion animals.



Some of my dogs are among the top 100 fittest and most skilled dogs in my country, that is proven. Out of 6 dogs I have 3 champions, 2 of which hold them in multiple activities, and one supreme champion. The activities they compete in are working trials, agility, obedience and schutzhund. That may not mean much to you and I don't know your moral stance on working dogs but it shows that they can physically and mentally outdo many other working dogs and their strenth in these areas goes far beyond most pet dogs. Since moving to a raw diet none have visited the vet for anything other than a checkup apart from one with an on going genetic condition. I don't think they could have achived any of this without a great diet and I don't think any of them will be going veggie any time soon.
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#84 Old 08-19-2008, 05:15 AM
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I choose to feed them based on observation (of my dogs and several others) and instruction from veterinarians and those well versed and educated in canine nutrition



Can I ask where you can find these vets 'well versed in canine nutrition' because the last I heard was that nutrition makes up a very small part of a vetenary course. Add to that the fact that every single vetenary college in both the US and the UK has it's nutrition course sponsored by multi-national pet food companies that mostly base their food on grain then I don't think they would be that 'well versed'. I love my vet, he's done a great job helping me through one of my dogs hip condition, but even he admits that I probably know more about nutrition than he does.



Quote:
rather than how they evolved, based on environment that they are no longer (under our care) dependent on.



It doesn't really matter what enviroment they evolved in, they could of evolved on the moon for all I care. They are biologically designed to eat meat no matter where you put them.



Quote:
was also just completely confused by this thread, because I do not understand how anyone who buys meat or animal products to feed their animal(s) is a vegan. (The title of this thread is "Vegans and our animals".) I understand that people cut out animal products for all sorts of reason (health/environment), not just AR, and I wholly support any reason one has and any extent they are willing to take it to.

But by it's very definition, veganism excludes those who use animals and their various parts and secretions for any reasons, even if it is more "natural", etc. Of course no one can be perfect (and no one should have that expectation), but it is a giant leap to cross the chasm between, say, paying to see a film (gelatin) and supporting institutionalized, speciesist cruelty.

That's all I'm saying.



I don't buy my dogs meat and I don't support the meat industry. It is perfectly possible in the current world to do this. Even so I have a duty of care to the animals that rely on me and their health and wellbeing comes first. How could I justify my dogs suffering early organ failure then taking drugs that are the product of animal experimentation to control it - because I have fed a substandard diet? I couldn't.
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#85 Old 08-19-2008, 12:31 PM
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"where the hell is the examples of these malnourished, cancer riddled vegan dogs or even ones that are, somehow, not thriving quite as much as their omnivorous friends?" I've never read about or seen any. I am sure there are vegan dogs with cancer out there, but I do not believe it is directly caused by a lack of meat.



I knew 4 dogs that got dilated cardiomyopathy as a result of a vegan diet. Does that count as not thriving? They were doing great too as far as skin and coat condition, energy level, etc., until they got diagnosed with that pesky little heart condition.



Does that mean all vegan dogs will get DCM? Of course not. But it was enough to lead me to do even more research on the subject and I've come to my own, personal conclusion that vegan diets are not what's best for dogs.



Of course you're not going to see as many vegan dogs with cancer as meat-eating dogs, because there aren't that many vegan dogs out there. However, a diet high in cooked grain is believed to cause cancer in dogs and that's what a lot of vegan dog food is--grain. That is also what a lot of commercial, supposedly meat-based dog foods contain--mostly grain. My dogs don't eat what basically amounts to doggy junk food on the shelves of grocery and discount stores.



I'm glad your dogs are doing so well. They are adorable. I do hope you've looked into taurine and l-carnitine supplementation for them. And know that DCM is diagnosed through echocardiography, not blood tests or anything else. There are really no symptoms in the early stages.
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#86 Old 08-19-2008, 12:54 PM
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Okay...didn't expect this thread to be so much...



I have a cat. She eats cat food, with meat. She seems happy. She has no interest in a vegan diet. Since becoming a vegetarian, she doesn't like me so much. She has a habit of trying to eat everything we eat (while cooking) now she loses complete interest in my food.
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#87 Old 08-19-2008, 01:00 PM
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I am coming into this conversation a little late but here is my two cents worth. I had a little chihuahua which was diagnosed with the heart condition mentioned here, when she was very young and was eating a commercial "meat based" dog food. Heart conditions don't necessarily result only from vegan diets. Also, the dogs that were on vegan diets and got various diseases weren't necessarily on good vegan diets just like not all "commercial meat-inclusive" diets are good ones.



A home-made vegan diet would not be based on grain exclusively either. When I cook for my little guys it is beans and lentils based, with additional brown rice and quinoa and peanut butter for flavouring. Then I add various vitamins (taurine & carnitine, calcium, B12 and vitamin C), grated carrots, potatoes, swiss chard, apple pieces, bananas, flax seed meal, walnuts. That is basically what I do and they are doing really good on it. It sure isn't as convenient as a kibble though.
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#88 Old 08-19-2008, 03:28 PM
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I am coming into this conversation a little late but here is my two cents worth. I had a little chihuahua which was diagnosed with the heart condition mentioned here, when she was very young and was eating a commercial "meat based" dog food. Heart conditions don't necessarily result only from vegan diets. Also, the dogs that were on vegan diets and got various diseases weren't necessarily on good vegan diets just like not all "commercial meat-inclusive" diets are good ones.



I didn't say only vegan dogs get DCM. But in the case of my friends' dogs, it was directly related to their vegan diet, according to the veterinary cardiologist. And I'll take his word for it. They were also on the Vegedog recipes + supplement and my friends were told Vegedog had everything the dogs would need. It's not like they were just feeding the dogs leftovers from their own plates.



My dogs were also on Vegedog at that time. I went against my gut feeling and tried to turn them vegan. However, my dad thought I had lost my mind and would feed them meat when I wasn't around to object. I sent my dogs with my friends when they took their fourth, asymptomatic vegan dog for the echo. Their fourth dog had early DCM. Mine were fine.
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#89 Old 08-19-2008, 04:21 PM
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I didn't say only vegan dogs get DCM. But in the case of my friends' dogs, it was directly related to their vegan diet, according to the veterinary cardiologist. And I'll take his word for it. They were also on the Vegedog recipes + supplement and my friends were told Vegedog had everything the dogs would need. It's not like they were just feeding the dogs leftovers from their own plates.



My dogs were also on Vegedog at that time. I went against my gut feeling and tried to turn them vegan. However, my dad thought I had lost my mind and would feed them meat when I wasn't around to object. I sent my dogs with my friends when they took their fourth, asymptomatic vegan dog for the echo. Their fourth dog had early DCM. Mine were fine.







I'm just curious as to what breed your friends dogs are? Cause I know that chihuahua are prone to heart disease. Is there another breed that is susceptible too?
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#90 Old 08-19-2008, 08:31 PM
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Elbow dysplacia is genetic and does not occur because of diet.



Erm,.. correct.



Quote:
And size has little to do with how well a dog plays (unless you mean she is overweight)



She is kept at a lower weight to help ease the strain on her elbows. I don't know if you have any large breed dogs, but we are talking about a newfoundland here. They move differently than other breeds. Older large breed dogs are usually less spunky and fast and hop/pounce around less or for shorter periods of time than older dogs of other breeds. They grow very fast in puppyhood, which puts strains on their bones and joints that can catch up with them later in life. They also just, generally, have less in their energy reserve than a little yapping terrier, bouncing off the walls.



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Is there any evidence that the cancer was diet related? Cancer can come about due to both genetic and enviromental factors. Feeding a good diet reduces the risk significantly but does not eliminate it. If you do not have any evidence that the cancer was related to meat eating then it's just scaremongering.



I am not sure if you are being serious and just misread me, or if you are being intentionally controversial and argumentative.

You've conveniently left out this bit:
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I do not give these examples to "prove" that a carnivorous/omnivorous diet is inferior, but to say, "where the hell is the examples of these malnourished, cancer riddled vegan dogs or even ones that are, somehow, not thriving quite as much as their omnivorous friends?" I've never read about or seen any. I am sure there are vegan dogs with cancer out there, but I do not believe it is directly caused by a lack of meat.



I was clearly just pointing out that meat-eating canines get cancer, also. I never said there was a cause and effect that relates in any way to meat (or lack there of).



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Because they are carnivores, simple as that. Cows are herbivores, what do you think they thrive on?



Let's try this again: What is it about their behavior, appearance, health, examinations, longevity, etc. that makes some of you believe so vehemently that your dogs are healthier or "thrive" more on their diets? What observable proof is there? I was not looking for "because it should be so" again.



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The fact your vets sell commercial food (no doubt manufactured by purina and the like) to promote health suggests they're blinkered to this. Your dogs may be above 'normal' healthwise but 'normal' healthwise in dogs these days is far, far bellow what it should be.



What vet sells the kind of crap dog food manufactured by purina? (O_o)



Would you like to tell me what levels of health my dogs should measure up to? I say my dogs are very healthy. You want to find some way to dispute that by talking about lower standards of health, and you believe that you are somehow more qualified than my vets (or your own),.. so have at it.

Tell us, what standard our dogs should be living up to that we and our vets are too busy comparing to inferior health to see?

My offer is genuine. I'd really like to know.



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I do choose what they eat but I'm no pack leader. To be a pack leader I need to be a dog, since I am not a dog I prefer to describe myself as a human partner or companion. Sorry it's totally unrelated to the topic but I hate the term 'pack leader' when applied to a human.



Really?... you do like to argue, don't you. (^_^)

For one that references evolutionary nature so much, it is weird to me that you would be so bothered by me using this term.

I let my dogs be dogs, and we are a familial unit. Of course, they are absolutely my companions, but I provide their food, and shelter, and they wait for me to go through doors first (without ever having been asked to do so, because I could not care less) and other things that tell me that they see me as their pack leader, as well as a companion. That is the way they see it, and I like to take into account the canine perspective rather than trying to humanize them. This does not mean I see myself as one of them. I know I am human.

There is a hierarchy in every pack. (I'm sure you know that.) It is evolutionary psychology. I am glad they have always seen me as leader, because otherwise they would be fighting, with each other, for dominance. We have a very peaceful home.

There has been numerous examples of cross-species rearing (not just with humans involved), and canines perceive the one that takes care of them as their pack leader.

You = provider = pack leader.

That is why the term was used in the context of proving their food.



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I agree this is an issue but it is one that is easy to resolve by either not having a dog, hunting with your dog or feeding your dog the waste products of the human meat industry.



Ok, I am laughing at the idea of taking my dogs hunting. My dogs won't even eat a live insect. (^_^)

They will toy with them and hop around them. They will chase squirrels and birds in my yard, tails wagging,... they treat it as a game and always let them get away.

They killed a opossum that ran in my house one night, but it was strictly territorial. They could not have been less interested in eating it.



In fact, I came to discover this, because my huge 125 lb dog darted from my living room, down the hallway, and backed up against my bedroom door.

She sat there crying, terrified by what had just transpired. She is a big baby.



Of course, my dogs would eat whatever they could (including other animals, if they were starved. But if I took them on as hunting trip now (where? to hunt the neighborhood cats ), they would most likely chase some things for fun then start grazing on plant life, like they do now.



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Some of my dogs are among the top 100 fittest and most skilled dogs in my country, that is proven. Out of 6 dogs I have 3 champions, 2 of which hold them in multiple activities, and one supreme champion. The activities they compete in are working trials, agility, obedience and schutzhund. That may not mean much to you and I don't know your moral stance on working dogs but it shows that they can physically and mentally outdo many other working dogs and their strenth in these areas goes far beyond most pet dogs. Since moving to a raw diet none have visited the vet for anything other than a checkup apart from one with an on going genetic condition. I don't think they could have achived any of this without a great diet and I don't think any of them will be going veggie any time soon.



Ah... I see.

Well, you are right. That really means absolutely nothing to me.

If I really wanted to train my dogs to perform, I am sure they would do pretty well. But no, I do not believe in one having dogs to work or perform for them.

Basing your assertion that your dogs thrive above all others (that do not share your chosen diet) on metals or trophies they have won from these competitions does not resonate. I don't think it is a very sound argument. Not because of my personal feelings on the matter, but because you are just taking two things and connecting them to support your opinion. There is nothing to say one has anything, at all, to do with the other.
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