Is living vegetarian enough? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 06-19-2008, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by thefiddlerscall View Post

Personally I think any step is a good one. If your video would be able to convert far more people into vegetarianism than into veganism it might be a good start.

You could even have more than one video and alternate the focus and which you show depending on the target audience.



I think what you're doing is great though, the more aware people are of the suffering, the better!

Thanks for the message!

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Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

No. While humans indulge in the luxury of taking their time to make their transition easy and comfortable for themselves, animals are still suffering. If you are dealing with people who care about animals, why give them the impression that its ok for the animals if they take their time? What real difference does it make to the animals you are still eating, even if you are only eating one tenth as many as you did a year ago? That is like saying I am benefiting all the people I don't murder by reducing the number of people I do murder.

I doubt my audience, not just my family, but people in general really care about animals, though. That is why in the video I include references of how our food consumption plays a role in other places in the world and affects millions of humans. Since the majority of humans believe in anthrocentrism I hope this will affect a few more people, but it's hard to get people to care, especially when proposing such an "extreme" solution. But, I understand what others have said and I will try the "incremental veganism" by not explaining every detail. I will state that living vegan is the endeavor to eiliminate animal and animal product consumption for the benefit of humans, animals, and their own personal health.

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I'm not trying to ignore how difficult it can be for people to change. But even if their were only one cow left in the world who was still suffering in order to produce milk for the last few people who refuse to stop drinking it, that cow is still suffering 100% of the time.



I just don't think of animals as numbers and percentages. They are individuals who suffer from abuse, and this suffering isn't to be measured by how few are experiencing it.



I am also very dubious about the tendency of most humans to look for any reason not to do as much as they possibly can. A bunch of vegetarians saying "every little bit helps" is just giving people permission to feel good about what they are not willing to give up, rather than conveying the sense of urgency that what we are doing is still not enough.

You're saying "all or nothing" and I agree. I will do my best to get that message without actually saying those exact words and discouraging people.



Are we as vegans doing enough?



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Originally Posted by sybaritik View Post

Yes. Veganism is not just a change in diet, it's a big change in lifestyle from meat eating, and there's a lot to learn. Many people drop out because they find the change too overwhelming.



In general, people are more likely to stick with veganism if they do a slow adjustment rather than make a sudden jump.







It's obviously not as ideal as veganism, but if someone can't cope as a vegan and the alternative is a possible return to meat-eating, it certainly is good enough

I don't want to say "take it slow" or "transition on a time that works for you" to anyone again because when I first became a vegetarian one of my friends was interested and I told her to "take it easy" and she said she would do it. She's taking it very easy today and still eats animals on occasion, though she has tried with my help to cut back all together. When I learned that poor and starving people are affected I told her this, too, but people in general just don't really care. Most people would rather donate to their church to save their souls mor ethan anything. That's part of the reason I'm making a fourth video about Christianity and animals, also my family is Catholic, too. It's sort of a guilt trip. Not that honest, but it's a last resort to appeal to them.



I really don't think there's that much to learn about strict vegetarianism. All it takes is an understanding of why it is necessary, a guide of healthy vegetearian foods, maybe a little more time to do shopping, and having a good time learning new recipes. Anyone cna learn that quickly enough and that will give them a good base to start vegan. What drives someone to learn more is the most important part, I think.
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#32 Old 06-19-2008, 11:17 PM
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I've always figured that if you've gone ovo-lacto veggie, then veganism will practically be a breeze.



To be honest, with the help of Silk Soymilk and other faux-milks out there (not to mention eNergy Egg Substitute for baking!!), it's really not too tricky. The hardest part is finding quick things to whip together that aren't too processed or expensive (for example- Amy's line of easy vegetarian/vegan meals is a favorite of mine, but they're QUITE expensive to get on a regular basis so they are certainly not standbys), and then finding the time to cook something at all. There are quickies, but I myself have trouble finding the time to cook and clean up afterwards.



To be honest, I figure that marginally, there isn't a huge amount you can do whether you're fully veganized or not- and with vegetarianism, you're really getting to the root of the whole movement, the prevention of killing a ridiculously large amount of animals. Dairy and eggs might be at least MORE okay if there weren't so many animals suffering on behalf of them. But that's how the industry works.



Anyway. Ramble. It's all about what you're comfortable with. I was okay with vegetarianism for many years *Shrug*. Just have everything in moderation. And it definitely doesn't hurt to support areas with free-range chickens and well-treated cows (going local as opposed to buying from a chain is as good as you're going to get to knowing just what you're going to be putting on your plate, although I certainly know about the cost!!).
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#33 Old 06-20-2008, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElArte View Post

I doubt my audience, not just my family, but people in general really care about animals, though. […] but it's hard to get people to care, especially when proposing such an "extreme" solution. […] but people in general just don't really care. […] What drives someone to learn more is the most important part, I think.

Confidence and affirmation that learning is possible and worth the effort seem just as important to me though.



I can relate to where you’re coming from with the resignation between the lines, as it can be very difficult to get through, and the indifference or apathy of some can be just as frustrating as fierce opposition by others.



Nevertheless I think that in order to find good ways to reach and teach people, one actually has to believe in them and in their desire and ability to learn and develop and grow, and that one should rather not presuppose that most “don’t care” anyway or that they would not be able to understand or internalise a concept.



I tend to view this similarly like SomebodyElse described above in post #30.

If I could open up to learn and understand about veganism*, so can others. It is no less likely that someone who seems a complete stranger to the idea now, could one day be there, than it once was likely that I ever would (indeed there was “no secret magic formula” which enabled me more to get there than anybody else, it was rather a question of getting the right "impulses" at the right time). Therefore, I personally tend to view “non-vegans” as not-yet-vegans. (Not saying that I think going vegan works the same way for everybody, or that I expect a majority actually will go vegan any time soon - but such considerations should not affect the cause or importance of spreading it anyway).



*here’s the Vegan Society’s definition which cannot be mentioned often enough...

Quote:
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PneumaticJawz78 View Post

And it definitely doesn't hurt to support areas with free-range chickens and well-treated cows

… depending on who the “doesn’t hurt” refers to!
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#34 Old 06-20-2008, 03:17 PM
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Great video by the way.



I think for mainstream America getting them to "eat a plant based diet" is a good start....but the goal should be for us all to become vegans because overall vegan is better.



I think sending the message that you're not doing enough for the world if you're not vegan isn't necessarily going to win people over. Somehow giving the message that veganism is the ideal to strive for but starting with a "plant based diet" however someone defines that is the start and that everytime someone chooses to omit meat from a meal, it's the right choice.
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#35 Old 06-20-2008, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
is living vegetarian enough?



i think it can be enough for some people.

i don't think it's enough for the planet and the animals, though it certainly helps some.
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#36 Old 06-21-2008, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PneumaticJawz78 View Post

To be honest, I figure that marginally, there isn't a huge amount you can do whether you're fully veganized or not- and with vegetarianism, you're really getting to the root of the whole movement, the prevention of killing a ridiculously large amount of animals. Dairy and eggs might be at least MORE okay if there weren't so many animals suffering on behalf of them. But that's how the industry works.



Anyway. Ramble. It's all about what you're comfortable with. I was okay with vegetarianism for many years *Shrug*. Just have everything in moderation. And it definitely doesn't hurt to support areas with free-range chickens and well-treated cows (going local as opposed to buying from a chain is as good as you're going to get to knowing just what you're going to be putting on your plate, although I certainly know about the cost!!).



Hey, I agree with your first point that being vegan isn't really so hard- if you can do meatless, you can do vegan. What I disagree with, though, is vegetarianism (ovo lacto) getting to the root of the problem/preventing the killing of many animals. Being an omnivore who consumes plants, animal flesh and animal secretions (milk, eggs) OR being an omnivore who consumes plants and animal secretions (milk, eggs) but not flesh (i.e. being an ovo-lacto "vegetarian"), you still fund the mistreatment and slaughter of animals. Unless you go vegan/herbivore, you're still paying for animals to be killed. And, truly, in the "best" of farming situations ("free-range", local, "humane" and what have you), the things that happen to dairy and egg animals leading up to and including the ways they die are Anything But kind. Anything But something a person who really believes animals deserve compassion would have any business supporting. We're talking reproductive slavery, mutilations, forcibly tearing newborns and their mothers apart, mass killings of infant animals (via methods such as being ground alive, suffocated or stomped for all the male chicks at the hatchery before their sisters arrive- via being mailed in cardboard boxes no less- at these oh-so-"quaint" backyard egg farms (sometimes via feed stores) if they're "lucky" enough), etc, etc. to say nothing of the transport and slaughter process, which has the animals meeting a bloody blade on the kill floors of the same usda inspected slaughterhouses as every other (i.e. the "factory farmed") animal who are slaughtered -once they are no longer financial assets to the farmers, their lives are ended against the animals will. In fact the way the supposedly "best off", most "humanely raised" egg and dairy producing animals and their male counterparts are treated and disposed of would constitute felony animal cruelty in every U.S. state if done to a dog or cat. So, how can we condone it in the case of a chicken or a cow, especially if we have decided to be the ones to speak for and advocate for these beings who have no choice in the matter?



Anyone interested, check out the new website www.humanemyth.org for more info, including many words from people who know the industry quite intimately either from having been family (animal) farmers themselves, or from rescuing the tortured victims of family farmers.



these links are also good resources:

http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html

http://www.peacefulprairie.org/outre...nicDairy2.html
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#37 Old 06-21-2008, 07:10 AM
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To the OP, it seems like you expected everyone to agree with you? As I'm finding your posts comming off as very defensive, especially to SomebodyElse. I could be readiny you wrong though. While many people don't see animals in the same way vegans do, it doesn't mean you/we should advocate for their continued abuse, torture and death.



While I know people who have given up meat and continue to eat dairy/eggs, I cannot fully support them. I let them know frequently that it's a step in the right direction, but I will never condone it for being okay. Everytime you eat dairy/eggs, use animal by products, etc, you are participating and condoning murder. Do I say that to their face? Sometimes (especially when they realize that I'm not giving them great pats on the back for stuffing their face with cheese). Yes I did break and eat cheese for a few weeks, and everytime I did it, I knew I was condoning murder. I'm sick at myself about it, and it's not a good way to live.



How to I bring up veganism with others? First I talk about the health aspects. Then I bring in the lives of dairy cows and hens. Use of animal products for our benifit (leather, fur, gelitan, things that you wouldn't think contianing animal products) Then finally if we get to this point, the slaughter of animals. Why? As too much information can cause a person to stick their fingers in their ears and turn away. But getting info on how healthy veganism can be (because of that massive myth that vegans are all malnurished) can show some light.
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#38 Old 06-21-2008, 07:33 AM
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I just reread my original post in this thread and was amazed to see that I somehow edited out half my post - the half where I actually commented on the video! I'll try to rmemer what I sad... hmmmm... I remember there is a part where excuses appear and when the first one comes up, it doesn't really seem like an excuse is being presented for looking at, but more like a statement of how the presenter feels! If the excuses were to be presented like: Excuse #1: blah, blah -It would be more obvious that you were disappating an excuse. There were some slides that went too fast, and I coudn't read all of them. Try reading them outloud and see if you finish, because if you already know what they say, you don't realize you are finishing them because your brain already knows, so you can't tell others aren't able to read them all before they change. Veg*n may be a better term to use, and it would open up the chance to discuss the difference, and explain vegetarianism as a first step. I know it was covered, health issues, but I'd like to see more info on that. Even people who have no compassion at all, don't care about animals, don't care about the planet, would like to live longer. Showing animal fat statistics relating to heart attacks, strokes, and colon cancer and talking that up a whole lot more, seems a good idea to me. I liked the music.

I recently put together a bunch of scriptures on God's perfect plan for how life on earth was SUPPOSED to go, and the fall from that perfect plan, if you are interested, I can copy and paste it for you.
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