Do vegans dislike vegetarians? - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 07-07-2007, 07:09 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,641
Hi, Diana (I know you will be reading this). Our recent posts have made me wonder... I just want to get a consensus of what vegans think of vegetarians.



I never thought of this issue before. I always assumed vegetarians would be welcomed by vegans.
sleepydvdr is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 07-07-2007, 07:18 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepydvdr View Post

I just want to get a consensus of what vegans think of vegetarians.

Such a consensus is unlikely to be reached because, you know, vegans are individuals and not the Borg collective.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#3 Old 07-07-2007, 07:20 AM
Veggie Regular
 
rabid_child's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 12,282
I think there are many loud vegans who condemn vegetarians and while they are not the majority, they stick out more. I think we're all on the same team so why fight amongst ourselves.

http://megatarian.blogspot.com
rabid_child is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 07-07-2007, 07:53 AM
Vegan Police Officer
 
Diana's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,211
No, I don't think we're on the same team. Vegetarians oppose animal usage for their flesh, commonly known as "meat". Vegans oppose animal usage full stop.
Diana is offline  
#5 Old 07-07-2007, 08:07 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Lydia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 715
I don't dislike vegetarians... I used to be one! (And technically speaking, all vegans are vegetarians as well.)
Lydia is offline  
#6 Old 07-07-2007, 08:14 AM
Vegan Police Officer
 
Diana's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,211
I don't think the argument that someone was something once holds.



Imagine if a ex-Nazi said: "I don't dislike Nazis... I used to be one!". Or to take an example from animal rights, there are a number of ex-vivisectors fighting against vivisection. I have never heard one of them say "I don't dislike vivisectors... I used to be one!"
Diana is offline  
#7 Old 07-07-2007, 08:25 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Lydia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 715
Okay, okay. I get your point.
Lydia is offline  
#8 Old 07-07-2007, 08:32 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana View Post

No, I don't think we're on the same team. Vegetarians oppose animal usage for their flesh, commonly known as "meat". Vegans oppose animal usage full stop.

If there's a vegan team, I think we need a mascot. What could it be? (HINT: Pennywise the dancing clown. It has kid appeal.)

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#9 Old 07-07-2007, 08:45 AM
Beginner
 
Odalys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 105
Its not that I dislike them, they're doing a good thing by not eating meat. But I also thing they conveniently forget the fact that the dairy industry causes animal suffering... and that upsets me.



I'm sure we've all heard this before: "I'm a vegetarian, but I could never be vegan, I like cheese to much."

Hmm..... animals don't need your excuses...



Heheh, but no offense to vegetarians, many of them eventually become vegans! I was a vegetarian for 2-3 weeks
Odalys is offline  
#10 Old 07-07-2007, 09:13 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Isabelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

If there's a vegan team, I think we need a mascot. What could it be? (HINT: Pennywise the dancing clown. It has kid appeal.)



Isabelle is offline  
#11 Old 07-07-2007, 09:18 AM
Veggie Regular
 
1vegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabid_child View Post

I think there are many loud vegans who condemn vegetarians and while they are not the majority, they stick out more.



I see those loud vegans as people who are so blinded by what they see, regarding animals, that they get frustrated.



But because the "uber vegans" aren't completely vegan yet, they forget that humans are animals too, and human-animals deserve some compassion and understanding too.



Instead of understanding this, and stimulating people, they "choose" to work out their frustration on the vegetarians or new-vegans, by telling them it's never good enough. In stead of praising people for what they have changed so far, they scold people for what they haven't done yet, neglecting that veganism is about doing "as far as is practicably possible" and that practicably has different meanings depending on where you live and how much income one has.



Sad thing is that that kind of "frustrated veganism" is in the long run, accomplishing the opposite of what they want to see; some hardcore / frustrated vegans just chase people away from veganism.
1vegan is offline  
#12 Old 07-07-2007, 09:27 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Isabelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1vegan View Post

In stead of praising people for what they have changed so far, they scold people for what they haven't done yet, neglecting that veganism is about doing "as far as is practicably possible" and that practicably has different meanings depending on where you live and how much income one has.



Sad thing is that that kind of "frustrated veganism" is in the long run, accomplishing the opposite of what they want to see; some hardcore / frustrated vegans just chase people away from veganism.



Agreed.
Isabelle is offline  
#13 Old 07-07-2007, 09:58 AM
Veggie Regular
 
panthera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1vegan View Post

Instead of understanding this, and stimulating people, they "choose" to work out their frustration on the vegetarians or new-vegans, by telling them it's never good enough. In stead of praising people for what they have changed so far, they scold people for what they haven't done yet, neglecting that veganism is about doing "as far as is practicably possible" and that practicably has different meanings depending on where you live and how much income one has.

By far the majority of vegans accept and support OLVs. I haven't been vegan long, but when I first switched, I was astounded that vegans DID support OVL. It seemed to me quite illogical and rather hush-hush.



I'm one of your more militant vegans (see my sig) because OLV is equally exploitative and cruel as meat-eating. Every single cow & chicken is slaughtered, they just suffer more first. The number of animals remains the same or actually increases. The actual chewing of flesh is just displaced into further use of cheap meats & meat by-products, which get thrown into traditionally meat-free products. This we all know, right??



But you'll notice that I am being this frank inside of a vegan section of the forum. Elsewhere, I make clear that I honor the intentions and significant actions that vegetarians have taken, and encourage that they continue their efforts to choose a cruelty-free lifestyle. With a quick, helpful note about the facts, which should lead them logically to veganism.



OLV is a step in the right direction, and to be recognized as such. But it's purely symbolic, at least in modern agriculture. In terms of individual impact, "compassionate meat consumption" is preferable.



I'm still working on how I react when I find someone is OL in real life. It's easier for me to explain myself online. But there's a damn good reason for vegans to accept vegetarians but definitely not ovo-lacto-vegetarianism.
panthera is offline  
#14 Old 07-07-2007, 09:59 AM
Veggie Regular
 
beatricious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1vegan View Post

I see those loud vegans as people who are so blinded by what they see, regarding animals, that they get frustrated.



But because the "uber vegans" aren't completely vegan yet, they forget that humans are animals too, and human-animals deserve some compassion and understanding too.



Instead of understanding this, and stimulating people, they "choose" to work out their frustration on the vegetarians or new-vegans, by telling them it's never good enough. In stead of praising people for what they have changed so far, they scold people for what they haven't done yet, neglecting that veganism is about doing "as far as is practicably possible" and that practicably has different meanings depending on where you live and how much income one has.



Sad thing is that that kind of "frustrated veganism" is in the long run, accomplishing the opposite of what they want to see; some hardcore / frustrated vegans just chase people away from veganism.



I don't know. I've never heard a vegan "scold" a vegetarian, either here or anywhere else. It seems to me that whenever a vegan points out that vegetarians still cause unnecessary harm to animals (which they do), they are accused of being elitist and militant and "uber" and whatever, no matter how reasonably and respectfully they present their case. Personally, as I have said elsewhere on these forums, I think vegetarianism is good as a logical step towards veganism, but not as an end in itself. And I think certain organizations (cough, PETA) are reinforcing the idea that lacto-ovo vegetarianism is "good enough", and I think that's dangerous. We shouldn't be afraid of promoting veganism.



Vegetarians are doing better than most people, yes, but we shouldn't shy away from discussing the cruely inherent in the dairy and egg industries merely for fear of being divisive. JMO.
beatricious is offline  
#15 Old 07-07-2007, 10:05 AM
Veggie Regular
 
panthera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 486
besides which, if you're interested in respecting animals' rights, then it doesn't make sense to exploit them, does it?



again, it's not so much about condemning people, but rather some of their actions.
panthera is offline  
#16 Old 07-07-2007, 10:15 AM
Veggie Regular
 
panthera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by beatricious View Post

We shouldn't be afraid of promoting veganism.

I agree. At this point, I don't like supporting a "go veggie" message at all, because it's so misleading. It should be "go vegan."
panthera is offline  
#17 Old 07-07-2007, 10:22 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,641
I want to thank everyone for their responses. I'm sure there will be more...



I want to remind everyone that omnivores are turned off by the words "vegan" and "vegetarian". They really turn a cold shoulder when vegans get aggressive. As the old saying goes: "You attract more bees with honey than vinegar".



You cannot tell someone how they should live their life. It does not work. NEVER. You can only give them facts and let them make up their own mind. Veg*ans are growing in numbers. But the negative attitudes I have seen today will not help the cause. I started this topic and I see the consensus is split so far. I thought we were all friends here. What's going on?



Last thought to the *militant* vegans: you shouldn't oppose vegetarians who support you and are the best candidates for becoming vegan.
sleepydvdr is offline  
#18 Old 07-07-2007, 10:40 AM
Tom
Veggie Regular
 
Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthera View Post


I'm one of your more militant vegans (see my sig) because OLV is equally exploitative and cruel as meat-eating. Every single cow & chicken is slaughtered, they just suffer more first. The number of animals remains the same or actually increases. The actual chewing of flesh is just displaced into further use of cheap meats & meat by-products, which get thrown into traditionally meat-free products. This we all know, right??



....I make clear that I honor the intentions and significant actions that vegetarians have taken, and encourage that they continue their efforts to choose a cruelty-free lifestyle....



OLV is a step in the right direction, and to be recognized as such. But...In terms of individual impact, "compassionate meat consumption" is preferable.

Panthera, I haven't quoted your full post- just the parts I wanted to comment on.



Is the number of animals killed as a result of an ovo-lacto diet the same, or more? I certainly don't see the consumption of free-range or hunted animals as preferable to ovo-lacto-vegetarianism, as far as animal welfare is concerned.



A major reason it took me so long to start eliminating milk and eggs from my diet was that I only heard abstract arguments about how humans should not use animals. But I needed to be prodded with info about laying hens spending their miserable, short lives in tiny cages, and then being slaughtered anyway... male chicks being discarded... male dairy calves being eaten as veal... cows having their calves taken from them so that I could drink the milk that was supposed to be for her calf, and finally becomiong hamburger. Once I was facing these facts, I had to move toward veganism.



(Note: There's a reason I still don't call myself vegan. I say "move toward" and "start eliminating" because I'm not at the point where I rigorously avoid trace amounts of animal products in things, and because I still use leather shoes. For now.)

Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
Tom is offline  
#19 Old 07-07-2007, 10:54 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Something that is always really messed up about threads like this is the vagueness. There is this vague group called the "militant vegans", and they do this or that, but no one knows what they do exactly, except that they're just bad. People take turns in saying how bad the militant people are and how they themselves are not one of them, but during all of this, no specific references are made: who are the militant vegans, and what do they do exactly? I realize that the OP is in reference to Diana's post but surely this thread is meant to have a wider meaning than that.



It makes me feel really narky.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#20 Old 07-07-2007, 10:58 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepydvdr View Post


You cannot tell someone how they should live their life. It does not work. NEVER. You can only give them facts and let them make up their own mind.

I think it would be silly to demand that the AR movement, a political movement, would only stick to describing the facts of animal use. Surely the movement must also, in order to create some permanent change in society, advance norms, an ethical challenge to the prevalent view about non-humans?

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#21 Old 07-07-2007, 11:19 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,641
Quote:
no specific references are made: who are the militant vegans, and what do they do exactly?



I think the classic idea of a militant vegan would be ones throwing red paint on old women wearing fur and/or getting violent about it. That kind of stuff.



Because of some posts today, I have been forming a new (but milder) opinion of militant vegans: people who are vocal to claim that anyone less vegan than themselves is a bad person. This attitude immediately turns a people off. And it hurts the vegan's cause, I would think.



One disturbing thing I have noticed: the Hitler type attitude. The "my way or else" train of thought. The iron fist. In my opinion, that is a contradiction of ethics. Where's the compassion for people trying to be be compassionate, themselves?



I'm sure an omnivore would have an even dimmer view of militant vegans. How many of them will you win over to veganism?
sleepydvdr is offline  
#22 Old 07-07-2007, 11:23 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Ok I agree with you that throwing red paint is not a good idea, and I also agree that there's no need to call someone a bad person. The focus should be on actions, not on persons.



But what is your opinion about the view that being lacto-ovo is active participation in animal exploitation, and that a consistent commitment to animal rights entails a rejection of lacto-ovo-vegetarianism as an ethically acceptable diet?

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#23 Old 07-07-2007, 11:29 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Doktormartini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,456
Well, vegetarians could go the further step and switch to veganism. I hear people say stupid things like, "I just can't give up dairy I love it to much." That is what I said when I started. I wasn't even expecting to become a vegan and I eventually did.



I don't dislike vegetarians. Sure, I think that they could do more by going vegan but at least they are making a bigger difference than omnivores.

“May all sentient beings be free of pain and suffering.  May all sentient beings experience eternal joy and happiness.  gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhi svāhā.”
http://www.facebook.com/doktormartini
http://twitter.com/#!/MartyBaureis
http://doktormartini.tumblr.com

Doktormartini is offline  
#24 Old 07-07-2007, 11:37 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Shantih's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 963
I don't dislike vegetarians as a rule. The only time I get peeved is if it's clearly that they know the suffering caused by the egg/dairy industries and would be able to switch to a vegan diet easily (namely no real money concerns, health problems etc) and still can't be bothered. But that's more a dislike of the person themselves and their indifference.
Shantih is offline  
#25 Old 07-07-2007, 11:39 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,641
I think it is ok if someone is not actively participating in the advancement of animal rights if they are also not actively contributing to slaughter. If everyone in the world went vegetarian, what would happen? Forced breeding would end. Slaughter houses would disappear. And eventually, people would call for better treatment of the animals still being used.



And I do think it is ok to use animals for byproducts like milk and eggs as long as they are treated properly. I have a job. You have a job (i assume). Everyone has a job. A purpose in life. Why not put cow and chickens to work if it doesn't hurt them? Is this not possible? Not even in my fantasy world in my mind? This is what I would like to see happen someday.
sleepydvdr is offline  
#26 Old 07-07-2007, 11:46 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepydvdr View Post

I think it is ok if someone is not actively participating in the advancement of animal rights if they are also not actively contributing to slaughter.

But lacto-ovos are actively contributing to slaughter, the meat and dairy industries are intimately connected. Do you know what happens to male chicks as a result of egg production?



Quote:
If everyone in the world went vegetarian, what would happen?

Assuming they continued to use dairy and egg products: cows would be artificially inseminated and kept as milk machines, male chicks would be killed in gruesome ways, hens would be kept as egg-laying machines, etc.



Quote:
And I do think it is ok to use animals for byproducts like milk and eggs as long as they are treated properly. I have a job. You have a job (i assume). Everyone has a job. A purpose in life. Why not put cow and chickens to work if it doesn't hurt them? Is this not possible? Not even in my fantasy world in my mind? This is what I would like to see happen someday.

I must say that I find it very, very sad that you think the "purpose" (I don't really believe in purposes though, at least not external ones) of non-human animals is, or even could be, to serve our taste preferences



What seems to be going on here is not merely your disagreement with some extreme tactics and attitudes of some vegans -- on this I agree with your position -- but your disagreement with the basic message of the animal rights movement.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#27 Old 07-07-2007, 11:46 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Shantih's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 963
We're humans. They're animals. They don't have to get a job. They owe us nothing.



This used to annoy me even when I was a kid, when I used to attend a riding school. The owner would demand the horses work all day to earn their keep, when I don't recall the horse asking for the job in the first place.



I don't want to sound condescending sleepydvdr, but have you properly researched the dairy and egg industries? Overbreeding would still occur to an extend if people ate dairy and eggs (however ethically the animals are treated), because of the surplus male chicks from egg production (and there's not even anyone to eat them, since they don't eat meat), and surplus cows from cows who need to be impregnated to produce milk



In my opinion, as soon as you give an animal a "job" it's welfare becomes the second most important thing, because there is nearly always money involved somehow.
Shantih is offline  
#28 Old 07-07-2007, 11:47 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shantih View Post


it's


"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#29 Old 07-07-2007, 11:49 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Shantih's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 963
Oh, not that again.



Can we give the various hypothetical animals talked about on the board a name? I vote for David.
Shantih is offline  
#30 Old 07-07-2007, 11:51 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
I will agree to that only if the name used will be Dinsdale.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off