Do vegans dislike vegetarians? - Page 11 - VeggieBoards
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#301 Old 07-11-2007, 10:12 PM
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bof- thanks for the article link, it just so happens i live in tampa...



Ha! Now we're back on topic (kind of) with whether or not vegans like vegetarians.



My question is: what makes vegetarians NOT take the step towards veganism? It seems like the only logical step...

ESPECIALLY those long time vegetarians who know how the milk in their cereal came to be.



A few pages back someone commented on how difficult it is to be vegan. This is just speculation, but are most vegetarians under the impression that vegans depend heavily on faux meat, soy icecream, and veganaise?

We need to do something to change this myth!
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#302 Old 07-11-2007, 10:36 PM
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Some vegans don't GET it evidently. You're like those religious fanatics who keep knocking on my door regardless how many times I tell them I have READ their literature and their books and I choose not to join their church.



There are omnis AND vegetarians out there that KNOW everything you know and CHOOSE NOT TO CHANGE and nothing we can say will sway them. Simple as that.
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#303 Old 07-11-2007, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts View Post

Some vegans don't GET it evidently. You're like those religious fanatics who keep knocking on my door regardless how many times I tell them I have READ their literature and their books and I choose not to join their church.



There are omnis AND vegetarians out there that KNOW everything you know and CHOOSE NOT TO CHANGE and nothing we can say will sway them. Simple as that.



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#304 Old 07-11-2007, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts View Post

Some vegans don't GET it evidently. You're like those religious fanatics who keep knocking on my door regardless how many times I tell them I have READ their literature and their books and I choose not to join their church.



There are omnis AND vegetarians out there that KNOW everything you know and CHOOSE NOT TO CHANGE and nothing we can say will sway them. Simple as that.

It scares me that the there are those kinds of people in this world.
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#305 Old 07-11-2007, 10:59 PM
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Just because certain people choose not to eat dairy and eggs doesn't make them any better or worse than those who decide to do one or both. Nobody is perfect in this world, least of all vegans (or vegetarians for that matter). The important thing is that we've all taken a step in the right direction to helping to end animal suffering. Each one of us has to take our own paths. It's more than what one does or doesn't eat. It's becoming involved. And I don't mean in a Peta raiding animal labs sort of way. It's educating people and companies on the all around benefits of being vegetarian/vegan. It's not snubbing people for believing different. The other night I wrote an email to Aussie Hair care and asked them how in the heck they could sell out to Proctor and Gamble, the biggest culprit of animal testing when they used to tout that they didn't a few years ago. I told them they sold out and I was very disappointed in them. Have they replied back? Hell no! Don't expect them to either. I see myself going vegan again, but I'm doing it on my terms. Nobody else's. Like I always say, I wasn't put on this earth to please people. If you don't like the way I do things then tough. Deal with it.
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#306 Old 07-11-2007, 11:04 PM
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And I don't mean in a Peta raiding animal labs sort of way.

Since when did PETA raid laboratories that test on animals?
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#307 Old 07-11-2007, 11:19 PM
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Since when did PETA raid laboratories that test on animals?





The whole point of the post wasn't whether or not Peta directly or indirectly raids laboratories that test on animals. Ok? And besides that Peta is a whole other topic of discussion that would open up a can of worms worse than this one could ever dream of doing. Would love to stay up all night discussing this, but I have to work tomorrow. 4.5 hrs of sleep. Yippee.
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#308 Old 07-11-2007, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Marineluvr26 View Post

The whole point of the post wasn't whether or not Peta directly or indirectly raids laboratories that test on animals. Ok? Would love to stay up all night discussing this, but I have to work tomorrow. 4.5 hrs of sleep. Yippee. ::

I'm sorry.



It's just seeing as we are in the Land of the Free Facts, I thought I would try and counter some ignorance.
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#309 Old 07-11-2007, 11:27 PM
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I'm sorry.



It's just seeing as we are in the Land of the Free Facts, I thought I would try and counter some ignorance.



Misinformed not ignorant. Was relying on memory. Which sucks. I apologize for being a misinformed ignoramous.
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#310 Old 07-11-2007, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts View Post

Some vegans don't GET it evidently. You're like those religious fanatics who keep knocking on my door regardless how many times I tell them I have READ their literature and their books and I choose not to join their church.



There are omnis AND vegetarians out there that KNOW everything you know and CHOOSE NOT TO CHANGE and nothing we can say will sway them. Simple as that.



I don't know, I think everyone has things that they're fanatical about, or would be, if it were legal to _____. Even though religious fanatics bother me, I can respect the fact that they're mostly trying to get me to see the *light* and save me from going to hell. Some vegans try so hard to keep animals from going through hell that they act *rude*.



I sometimes wonder about Christians who believe in hell themselves, yet do nothing to prevent others from going there.
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#311 Old 07-11-2007, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by social_moth View Post

Since when did PETA raid laboratories that test on animals?

The president of PETA wrote a book about it called "Free The Animals". I actually found it to be a very interesting read, even if I don't support criminal activities.
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#312 Old 07-11-2007, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by delicious View Post

I don't know, I think everyone has things that they're fanatical about, or would be, if it were legal to _____. Even though religious fanatics bother me, I can respect the fact that they're mostly trying to get me to see the *light* and save me from going to hell. Some vegans try so hard to keep animals from going through hell that they act *rude*.



I sometimes wonder about Christians who believe in hell themselves, yet do nothing to prevent others from going there.



well said, delicious
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#313 Old 07-11-2007, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts View Post

Some vegans don't GET it evidently. You're like those religious fanatics who keep knocking on my door regardless how many times I tell them I have READ their literature and their books and I choose not to join their church.



There are omnis AND vegetarians out there that KNOW everything you know and CHOOSE NOT TO CHANGE and nothing we can say will sway them. Simple as that.

Once again, I find this to be a false comparison. The difference between religious activism and vegan activism is that you can choose not to join their church and still not torture and kill others. So if you've read their literature and don't join, they should move on. While I agree that if individuals have read our literature, we should probably stop pestering them individually, I still think it's necessary to keep the pressure on them collectively.



Should human rights advocates give up on people who already know about human rights violations, and just say, some people will never change, so let's stop bothering them about their choices, participating in torture and exploitation? Or would we have counseled slavery abolitionists to just accept the lifestyle choices of slave owners, since they were already aware of the issues involved?



Why can't people at the very very least accept that part of the movement is more focused on advocacy and stop judging THEM for what they do?
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#314 Old 07-11-2007, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Odalys View Post

My question is: what makes vegetarians NOT take the step towards veganism? It seems like the only logical step...

ESPECIALLY those long time vegetarians who know how the milk in their cereal came to be.



A few pages back someone commented on how difficult it is to be vegan. This is just speculation, but are most vegetarians under the impression that vegans depend heavily on faux meat, soy icecream, and veganaise?

We need to do something to change this myth!

Well, that's really a Whole Different Thread... I can only speak for myself, but I found veganism to be too difficult. I tried it, but it didn't work for me, so I found a middle ground that does work for me.
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#315 Old 07-11-2007, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by panthera View Post

Once again, I find this to be a false comparison. The difference between religious activism and vegan activism is that you can choose not to join their church and still not torture and kill others. So if you've read their literature and don't join, they should move on.

I can tell your not an evangelical Christian. If you're living in sin, not believing in God, you're doing worse than hurting animals, you're hurting our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who came to earth and suffered and died on a cross to save you of your sins. You need to stop hurting God and ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins and accept him into your heart.



.... in other words, you don't just have them read your literature and move on. You press on, keep praying for them to open their hearts, keep being there for them and telling them that God is still ready to take them back.
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#316 Old 07-11-2007, 11:45 PM
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I can only speak for myself, but I found veganism to be too difficult. I tried it, but it didn't work for me, so I found a middle ground that does work for me.

And I think even what you're doing is GREAT and should be celebrated, not treated as a "halfway point" but recognised and appreciated as someone who is still doing something to reduce suffering. You have to do what works for you, I'm OK with that, because in the big picture, I think it will convince more people to try reducing their consumption of animal products.
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#317 Old 07-11-2007, 11:48 PM
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Although I avoid dairy products now [mostly because of the animal suffering in the commercial dairy industry], I hold the belief that dairy products are not inherently bad.



Meat is inherently bad. An animal must be injured or killed to provide the meat. This is clear.



Dairy products are not inherently bad. It is not necessary for an animal to be injured or killed to provide the dairy product. (It may be common practice, but it is not necessary.) This is clear.



For instance...say I am walking along the roadside and I see a cow roaming free in the grassy field. The cow is pregnant (naturally). I pick an apple out of my backpack and offer it to the cow. The cows chomps it for a few minutes. Meanwhile, I sit down and help myself to a little fresh milk. (I have a cup in my backpack.) As long as the cow doesn't mind, there is nothing harmful about taking the milk. (However, if the cow minds, it is not good to take the milk. That would be assault, stealing, etc.)



In today's commercial market, the suffering is unavoidable. There may be a few small dairy farms that are kind to the animals, where the animal are very healthy and happy. However, since I cannot know for sure if the meal uses dairy from this farm or the cheaper commercial factories, I must remain on the safe side. I must avoid all dairy products in my life...for the sake of the animals who are not healthy and happy.



While dairy products are not inherently bad, I believe it is best to avoid dairy products for the above reason [among many other reasons].



At least...that is my opinion.



CJB

Since we end up at the same place with respect to dairy, this post is largely academic. Nevertheless...



I've done some checking, including talking to owners and spokespersons of dairy farms, and my tentative conclusion is that virtually every small commercial dairy operation engages in multiple cruelties, including separation of mother and calf, forcing unnatural amounts of milk out of the cows, and killing the cows at young ages.



You've drawn a good distinction between theoretical and real-world, so no argument there. However, let's look at the theoretical scenario a little more closely. Modern dairy cows are the result of intensive breeding over many decades if no centuries. They've been bred to suit human purposes, and they pay for it with their health and well-being, e.g., loss of calcium and high rates of osteoporosis. Cows' pristine ancestors give enough milk for their calves. Sometimes they may have a little extra, but it's not something you would count on. In a natural setting, the cow very well might not appreciate you getting underneath her and pulling on her teats. And the bull guarding her almost certainly would mind.



A more fundamental question that comes to mind as I read many of these posts is: Why the preoccupation, the desire to find some way, any way, to get milk out of cows so we can drink it? Why is there not an equivalent desire to get milk out of cats and pigs? Why is there no desire to build up a reserve of human milk, strictly from volunteers? That would almost certainly be healthier. I think one reason is that we're used to cows' milk. In fact it's ingrained into our society. It's one of the most heavily promoted products in history, intensely marketed toward children and parents. It's portrayed as essential even though it is not, and is linked to many diseases, and over half the world cannot digest it in its native form. There may be an emotional attachment to cows' milk, and in fact the casein in dairy products contains opium-like substances - most highly concentrated in cheese - that may cause an addiction. If no one had ever drunk cows' milk, the idea might seem preposterous. Or disgusting, just like the idea of eating chicken feet is disgusting to omnis in the West but not in China.
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#318 Old 07-11-2007, 11:51 PM
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Why is there not an equivalent desire to get milk out of cats and pigs? Why is there no desire to build up a reserve of human milk, strictly from volunteers?

Presumably cat's don't really produce enough milk to make it worth the trouble. Also, they have claws.
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#319 Old 07-12-2007, 12:41 AM
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.... in other words, you don't just have them read your literature and move on. You press on, keep praying for them to open their hearts, keep being there for them and telling them that God is still ready to take them back.

I don't recall from your earlier posts - are you OK with both evangelical Christians and evangelical vegans, then? Since they're both pressing for people to stop hurting others? Just trying to keep things straight, not challenging (yet).
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#320 Old 07-12-2007, 01:04 AM
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Some vegans don't GET it evidently. You're like those religious fanatics who keep knocking on my door regardless how many times I tell them I have READ their literature and their books and I choose not to join their church.



There are omnis AND vegetarians out there that KNOW everything you know and CHOOSE NOT TO CHANGE and nothing we can say will sway them. Simple as that.









Quote:
Originally Posted by delicious View Post

I don't know, I think everyone has things that they're fanatical about, or would be, if it were legal to _____. Even though religious fanatics bother me, I can respect the fact that they're mostly trying to get me to see the *light* and save me from going to hell. Some vegans try so hard to keep animals from going through hell that they act *rude*.



The point is they have NO right to get rude. Anyone who does lacks some basic respect for people. The fact that animals are dying is not an excuse to behave in a confrontational, aggressive or insulting way towards people. Maybe you tolerate people talking in a disrespectful way to you or about you, but I don't feel that I should have to. If someone acts that way with me, they can expect to be put back in their box.

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#321 Old 07-12-2007, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by vegzilla View Post

Since we end up at the same place with respect to dairy, this post is largely academic. Nevertheless...



I've done some checking, including talking to owners and spokespersons of dairy farms, and my tentative conclusion is that virtually every small commercial dairy operation engages in multiple cruelties, including separation of mother and calf, forcing unnatural amounts of milk out of the cows, and killing the cows at young ages.



You've drawn a good distinction between theoretical and real-world, so no argument there. However, let's look at the theoretical scenario a little more closely. Modern dairy cows are the result of intensive breeding over many decades if no centuries. They've been bred to suit human purposes, and they pay for it with their health and well-being, e.g., loss of calcium and high rates of osteoporosis. Cows' pristine ancestors give enough milk for their calves. Sometimes they may have a little extra, but it's not something you would count on. In a natural setting, the cow very well might not appreciate you getting underneath her and pulling on her teats. And the bull guarding her almost certainly would mind.

I heartily support everything vegzilla has said here. And as I've said elsewhere, (possibly getting more than a bit annoying about it but since it's important I do persist) this is also based on fairly thorough research into the matter (as an individual not as an institution, but an enthusiastic student with access to many resources)!
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#322 Old 07-12-2007, 02:20 AM
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The point is they have NO right to get rude. Anyone who does lacks some basic respect for people. The fact that animals are dying is not an excuse to behave in a confrontational, aggressive or insulting way towards people. Maybe you tolerate people talking in a disrespectful way to you or about you, but I don't feel that I should have to. If someone acts that way with me, they can expect to be put back in their box.



I think that they have every right to be rude... and even worse. The people who are participating willfully and gladly in the murder and exploitation and suffering of animals have no respect for those animals. And I have little or rather no respect for vegetarians who knowingly cause suffering and death just for the sake of their tastebuds. Just as I have no respect for those humans who exploit and cause suffering in other human beings (for instance, the big bosses Chinese shoe factories). Especially as veganism is so easy to follow. It's not like one is expecting a paraplegic to become a major league basketball player or something.





Those who knowingly cause suffering without any qualms I will be rude to any day or night.



New vegetarians... those who are only discovering and glimpsing the world of animal exploitation, I will give them all my time and patience and tolerance.
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#323 Old 07-12-2007, 02:29 AM
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How could a movement completely rejecting animal exploitation not treat active participation in animal exploitation as only a halfway point?

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#324 Old 07-12-2007, 02:44 AM
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A right to be rude? Yes. A right to damage my property or harass me? No. That's why it's a crime.
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#325 Old 07-12-2007, 03:07 AM
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Before I forget, thanks Diana for your detailed answer. I would be very interested to hear more from you about AR in Switzerland and Austria. Hopefully there will be a forum for CH in Other Countries on VB by then

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I am so incredibly upset. I don't understand how people can choose to be ignorant, I don't understand how they can put their palette over principles.

Thats all a question of perspective. There are many vegans too who only care about the store price of e. g. chocolate (and of course that the ingredients are animal-free), but do not give a **** about the origin of the cocoa, although it is not a secret that a large percentage of cocoa cultivation esp. in West Africa involves child and slave labour. So if someone knows about that and chooses to buy the cheapest non-fair trade chocolate, they accept that others are paying the real price for the product. Often we cannot really find out enough about the origins of products and the conditions under which they are made, but when we can, and esp. if the product is a luxury good (such as chocolate, coffee) which are not basic needs, I think a vegan would have to choose fair trade (and organic) when possible - but many dont seem to care. So theres chosen ignorance everywhere.



I cannot and do not want to hate omnis/vegetarians, neither for being omnis/vegetarians nor for not going vegan, and to me hating let alone personally attacking them would be contrary to my aim to live a compassionate life. Theres more to every individual than being omni/vegetarian or vegan, and someones moral principles show in many other aspects of life too.



There are vegans who are disrespectful even violent towards humans incl. other vegans (who obviously do not partipicipate in the killing of animals), and there are omnis who have saved dozens of strays, or take an omni veterinarian for example! Everyone must do what s/he is able to do and what s/he can account for before their maker and before the law in a democracy, where we can vote the people who make and protect the law. We have a right to speak up to change or improve the law, but if we act against it, thats a crime/terrorism.
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#326 Old 07-12-2007, 03:08 AM
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hmmm so by most of the aruments on this thread im just wasteing my time being a vegetarian and not vegan. So i might as well pack it in and have a big old steak?

I think maybe some people just need others to look down on. So they can say im better than everyone else. Im better than the omnis becasue they eat meat and meat is murder. Im also beter than the vegetarians because they arent dedicated enough. I dont eat eggs or drink milk but i do have a one year old that i reuse to risk his diet so he does get milk. Also Sorry i dont think bee's miss the honey. Becasue of this ill never be able to call myself vegan so ill alwasy be looked down on by some vegan even tho i do look at ingredient labels for hidden animal product. Oh well not that i care anyway.
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#327 Old 07-12-2007, 03:16 AM
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And I believe fruitarians are a step beyond vegans. If a fruitarian tells me that he thinks he's gone a step beyond me and that I'm not doing enough, I will NOT get offended and all upset and tell him he's being "rude" and "intolerant".



Why would I not get upset?



Because I know damn well he's right. There's no point in being in denial. Why lie to oneself?? What is the point????



Before I became a vegan, I ADMITTED I was being a hypocrite. No-one can EVER be perfect, but the vegetarians think that their "little" bit (and it's really "little") is such a GRAND thing and that they should receive ****ing medals or something.
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#328 Old 07-12-2007, 03:23 AM
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If a fruitarian tells me she has gone a step beyond vegans, I will disagree with her, given that I don't think plants have any kind of inherent moral value.

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#329 Old 07-12-2007, 03:24 AM
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And I believe fruitarians are a step beyond vegans. If a fruitarian tells me that he thinks he's gone a step beyond me and that I'm not doing enough, I will NOT get offended and all upset and tell him he's being "rude" and "intolerant".



Why would I not get upset?



Because I know damn well he's right. There's no point in being in denial. Why lie to oneself?? What is the point????

I agree with these points, since I can see where you're going with this. Also, I think people are more inclined to accuse someone of being rude if the detractor offers a fact that doesn't line up with their preconceived beliefs.
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#330 Old 07-12-2007, 03:26 AM
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I dont eat eggs or drink milk but i do have a one year old that i reuse to risk his diet so he does get milk. Oh well not that i care anyway.



Maybe you should care, and consider that you are harming your child's health by giving him cows milk.

There's plenty of research to this effect available but unfortunately the dairy industry has the advertising power to counteract it.
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