do all vegans here not consume any honey? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 09-14-2006, 04:16 PM
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because honestly, i tend to avoid it (i wouldn't add it if i had the choice) but if it happened to be in a food (say....Kashi go lean! cereal, i love that stuff) i tend to not mind. the reason i don't mind is because....well, do bees really suffer? how bad are their conditions that someone would want to refrain from eating honey? the main reason for my going vegan is the animal cruelty, and i just don't see how inhumane or cruel those bee farms (is that what they are called?) are, so i don't really mind eating honey.



honestly though, i'd really like to know more information on this, and hear your guys' opinions/thoughts..i'm kind of clueless on this one.



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#2 Old 09-14-2006, 04:28 PM
 
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A person who is a vegan, avoids honey, by definition. There will be arguing about it I'm sure, but it's really quite simple. If you claim to eat a vegan diet, you don't eat honey.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#3 Old 09-14-2006, 04:36 PM
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I think if you follow the technical definition of a vegan, you don't eat honey. It's still an animal product, regardless of whether the animal suffers or not.



I personally don't eat it because I disagree with humans keeping other animals in captivity against their will - including bees. For you though, since your reasons for being vegan are specifically animal cruelty, I would suggest doing a lot of research on the issue and decide for yourself if it's cruel or not.



I think it's pretty cruel to keep any animal in a tiny, confined space for his entire life, but your decision will depend on how you define "cruel."
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#4 Old 09-14-2006, 04:37 PM
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Well, there are a lot of threads on honey if you search on it, but I know not everyone thinks to do that. I certainly don't all the time.



Bees are killed in the process. Not an incredible amount - they do want to keep them alive - but they still are.



The main issue is that being a vegan is about not doing harm to animals. Raising bees in a hive and taking their honey is interfering and stealing their food. Plus, honey is basically bee-spit, so it's an animal product. Vegans don't consume animal products.



Do what's comfortable for you.
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#5 Old 09-14-2006, 04:38 PM
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I'm not vegan, so maybe I'm not qualified to express an opinion, but it seems to me quite simple that...



1. Veganism is about not eating or using animal products.

2. Honey is an animal product.



So if I were going to go vegan tomorrow, of course the honey would have to go.



Similarly, I question whether insects can suffer in any meaningful way myself, but you don't see me, a vegetarian, eating chocolate covered ants, do you? (You don't.) Because ants are animals, and vegetarians don't eat animals. (I won't be adding silkworms to my diet anytime soon, either.)
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#6 Old 09-14-2006, 04:39 PM
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I'm quite curious about it as well. I had been using honey without thought up until a couple of weeks ago when I began reading more about it on here...I don't have any particularly strong convictions about it, but I also have no idea what I am putting money towards when I buy honey(even if it is organic, and 365 Everyday Brand from Whole Foods), and I would like to. At this point, I'd rather just stop calling myself a vegan(I believe "apian" is the term for someone whose only animal product consumption is honey) and explain to people why eating honey makes me non-vegan, as opposed to saying I'm vegan and eating honey.



I'd like to research it more, though, as well, because the other day these words popped into my head - "Bee cum". I'd rather not eat something that comes from a process named by a word which I also use dirtily - "pollenation".



Sadly, the thought occurred to me only a few days after I bought a new bottle of honey. So I think I'm going to use this up so as not to be wasteful, then stop using honey in my cooking/baking/etc. Maybe I'll replace it with agave nectar...as for abstaining from products with honey as an ingredient, I'm still not sure.
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#7 Old 09-14-2006, 04:42 PM
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I avoid honey 100%.



It helps that I don't like it.



But at the same time, I can't honestly say I feel as strongly about honey as I do about eggs and milk. I guess I'm just a bad vegan that way.



Cheers!

TJ
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#8 Old 09-14-2006, 04:49 PM
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I'm not vegan either but honey is definitely an animal product so yeah, if I were to slap that vegan label on myself I would need to give up honey (and some other stuff.)
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#9 Old 09-14-2006, 04:53 PM
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On these boards, it depends on who you ask. I personally avoid honey.
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#10 Old 09-14-2006, 04:54 PM
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thanks guys for your responses. i searched and read some other threads (should've done that before i made this thread...tsk tsk) and i found plenty of good points to avoid honey. i will probably still continue to avoid it when i can...but i think i will probably finish up the box of cereal, and hopefully i can find another kashi cereal without honey.
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#11 Old 09-14-2006, 05:15 PM
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I am a vegan, therefore I do not consume honey.
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#12 Old 09-14-2006, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggiejanie View Post

I am a vegan, therefore I do not consume honey.







Yeah. Isn't that on page two of the vegan handbook?



Cheers!

TJ
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#13 Old 09-14-2006, 06:02 PM
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Nope, no honey for me, not on it's own or in products, I avoid it as I do any other animal ingredient.

"Through the centuries, we have projected onto the wolf the qualities we most despise and fear in ourselves." ~ Barry Lopez.
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#14 Old 09-14-2006, 06:14 PM
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I also avoid it just as I do any other animal product. While not a lot of bees die in the harvesting process, some bee farmers burn the hives at the end of the season to save money. The honey is also their food which is being stollen and replaced with sugar water.
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#15 Old 09-14-2006, 06:52 PM
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Bees are in phylum Arthropoda.



So are crustaceans.



Nothing like some honey covered lobster.
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#16 Old 09-14-2006, 07:09 PM
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I'm vegan and I don't eat honey. I have never consumed honey as a vegan, but I also gave in at one point...



when I had first switched to veganism, I was almost tempted to allow honey back into my diet. (many breads and cereals at school had honey on them)

I did some research online and I was still torn on the subject.

I decided that in the end, I could not consume honey and honestly still consider myself a complete dietary vegan. (I use that term, because some people complain about me having leather seats in my car, that I didn't even buy!)

It took some help from this board though...I almost gave in, but some of you guys convinced me not to. I'm glad that I had more time to think about it and got some opinions from you guys.



so yeah, I think honey is debatable, but in all honesty, I believe that to consider yourself a vegan, you can't eat honey. it is an animal product/byproduct and there is suffering that goes along with it.
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#17 Old 09-15-2006, 12:00 AM
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I became a vegan because I am against factory farming. Bees and honey have nothing to do with factory farming. I rarely eat honey, but if it is in bread or a granola bar or something I will eat it.
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#18 Old 09-15-2006, 04:00 AM
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I don't know about here on this board, but in real life there are vegans who consume honey.

http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

http://www.veganoutreach.org/starter...a.html#insects
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#19 Old 09-15-2006, 05:13 AM
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Bees make honey for their own needs. They do not think "hey... there are human beings who LOVE honey, so let's make lots and lots extra so that we can share it with them".



Eating money means you are STEALING from the bees and you force them to work harder to replace the honey you are stealing from them.



On top of it, the methods used in industrial honey making DO make the bees suffer. Just one example: when the bees sting the people who are stealing their honey (they are well covered so do not get hurt), the bees DIE. All bees die once they have stung.



Smoking out the bees is also a method that is used. Would any human enjoy being smoked out of their house so that some big Alien Giant can come and steal all their food and their property?



If one cannot find your cereal without honey... well then just make your OWN cereal, or if you're lazy, then just do without. It is possible to live quite comfortably without cereal.



Oh and as to the "some vegans do eat honey yadda yadda yadda yadda", that is nonsense. It's like those vegetarians who eat fish. They SWEAR they are vegetarians. They will shout and stamp and pout that they ARE vegetarians... but they are not.



VEGANS DO NOT EAT HONEY because it is an animal product. There is basically no difference between consuming milk and consuming honey. Both are produced by animals for their own use, and both creatures are being exploited WITHOUT THEIR WRITTEN CONSENT so that humans can satisfy their stupid egoistical gourmandise.
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#20 Old 09-15-2006, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana View Post

There is basically no difference between consuming milk and consuming honey.

Wow, you honestly believe there's no difference between consuming milk and consuming honey?



I guess that VeganOutreach article has a point. "Squashing flies with your car is the same as eating veal???"
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#21 Old 09-15-2006, 05:44 AM
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Well, now that you point it out, there is a difference between milk and honey. Milk is white and liquid. Honey is semi-liquid/solid and yellow.



Also, they taste different.



My bad.
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#22 Old 09-15-2006, 05:48 AM
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Thanks for clarifying!
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#23 Old 09-15-2006, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana View Post

Well, now that you point it out, there is a difference between milk and honey. Milk is white and liquid. Honey is semi-liquid/solid and yellow.



Also, they taste different.



My bad.







Also, I have never been stung by a cow.



Cheers!

TJ
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#24 Old 09-15-2006, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpickell View Post

I don't know about here on this board, but in real life there are vegans who consume honey.

http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

http://www.veganoutreach.org/starter...a.html#insects

I think the problem with at least the VeganOutreach approach is that it defines Veganism as something like "avoid cruelty". I, on the other hand, think veganism should be about "no animal products", which excludes honey. For the same reason, I don't consider all freegans vegan.



But this doesn't mean that I think only veganism can be ethical. Rather, I consider freeganism to be generally much more cruelty-free than veganism.

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#25 Old 09-15-2006, 06:55 AM
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why can't I delete this double post????
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#26 Old 09-15-2006, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObliqueRain View Post

I became a vegan because I am against factory farming. Bees and honey have nothing to do with factory farming. I rarely eat honey, but if it is in bread or a granola bar or something I will eat it.



I'm vegan because I am against veal. Pigs and chicken have nothing to do with veal. I rarely eat pork and chicken, but if its in stew, or pasta, or just cooked on my plate I will eat it.
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#27 Old 09-15-2006, 08:39 AM
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since other websites are being thrown around, here is the

Why Honey Is Not Vegan website.





Oh and vegetarians can eat fish, because some do, and I'm sure I could find some websites where vegetarians support the eating of fish.

Vegetarians don't eat fish, and Vegans don't eat honey.
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#28 Old 09-15-2006, 08:59 AM
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View on honey from the VEGAN SOCIETY ( you know... the people that coined the term "vegan". The people that created the phrase and philosophy to set us apart from plain ol' vegetarians. The group you pretty much claim to be a part of by calling youself vegan - sort of how calling yourself Lutheran makes the claim that you are part of the Lutherans)



http://www.vegansociety.com/html/ani...ation/bees.php



Quote:

Bees are manipulated worldwide to produce many products for human use: honey, beeswax, propolis, bee pollen, royal jelly and venom. They are intelligent insects with a complex communication system.



Because bees are seen flying free, they are also often considered free of the usual cruelties of the animal farming industry. However bees undergo treatments similar to those endured by other farmed animals. They go through routine examination and handling, artificial feeding regimes, drug and pesticide treatment, genetic manipulation, artificial insemination, transportation (by air, rail and road) and slaughter.



Quote:

When beekeepers manipulate combs many bees are crushed and killed. Hives have smoke puffed into them to calm bees down and make them easier to handle. Special excluders or devices that violate the bees' space are attached to hives to collect bee products from bees as they enter hives. Bees are separated from their hives by being shaken vigorously or jetted out with powerful streams of air. They may have their legs and wings clipped off. Clipping the wings of queen bees prevents them from swarming (flying off!).



Swarming is the natural way for reproduction, increase and survival of the species, at least in the wild. However, beekeepers are constantly trying to prevent this natural phenomenon and will use artificial pheromones, wing clipping and cage queens to keep their colony under control.







but of course... bees are small, and therefore not worthy of our compassion. What is the specific volume and/or mass required for an animal to be considered worthy of compassion? Are hummingbirds worthy? Shrimp?



If one claims size is not important, but cognitive levels, then what is the cut off point? Bees display a higher communication and community level then say hamsters.



So what is the cut off that makes bees unworthy of compassion?

They don't scream? They don't bleed red?

Their honey just tastes too good to bother about caring?
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#29 Old 09-15-2006, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troub View Post

View on honey from the VEGAN SOCIETY ( you know... the people that coined the term "vegan". The people that created the phrase and philosophy to set us apart from plain ol' vegetarians. The group you pretty much claim to be a part of by calling youself vegan - sort of how calling yourself Lutheran makes the claim that you are part of the Lutherans)

I'm not sure you want to make Vegan Societies an authority. I think some of them make it ambiguous whether veganism is a diet or a lifestyle.



Quote:
If one claims size is not important, but cognitive levels, then what is the cut off point? Bees display a higher communication and community level then say hamsters.

While I agree that honey is not vegan and that bees deserve moral consideration, I really don't think they display higher cognitive levels than hamsters.

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#30 Old 09-15-2006, 10:52 AM
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I do not eat honey but currently still use beeswax in my cosmetic making because I haven't found a good supplier of plant wax yet. I don't like it, but until I find a source of plant wax I will use it.

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