do all vegans here not consume any honey? - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 09-16-2006, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Marie View Post

These threads are funny because they're always the same.



These threads are funny because this is a non-issue.



honey = not vegan.









Someone should start a "why fish in vegetarian" thread again. As fish to vegetarians is the same as honey to vegans.
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#62 Old 09-16-2006, 05:28 PM
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The fish analogy doesn't work here. The reasons are too different. A comparison that would work is "vegans who eat honey are like vegetarians who eat gelatin."
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#63 Old 09-16-2006, 05:40 PM
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The fish analogy doesn't work here. The reasons are too different. A comparison that would work is "vegans who eat honey are like vegetarians who eat gelatin."



Wrong. Gelatin is a byproduct of an industry, while honey IS the industry. The bee is being directly exploited for its honey.
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#64 Old 09-16-2006, 05:49 PM
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vegetarians eat gelatin????
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#65 Old 09-16-2006, 06:00 PM
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Hey kpickell, I just wanted to let you know that you are not the only one who feels like you do. I have already been attacked on here for promoting similar views. Strange how on VB, the moderates are considered the extremists. Actually, I think there are more of us on here, but they have just been sufficiently cowed over time that they no longer speak up, or have begun towing the party line even when they don't necessarily practice it themselves.



I advocate rational intelligence over blind fanaticism. I long for a world that embraces vegetarianism and veganism, a world that sees these things common, healthy, and good. Maybe some of you are too close to the issue to realize this, but militant, fanatical positions against things like honey seem completely INSANE to the average person. They don't help convert people to veganism, they just make it seem irrational and it turns people away. It makes it easy for people to dismiss the entire animal rights cause as nothing but a bunch of idiots, diverting attention away from the TRUE horrors of slaughterhouses and factory farms. Bees have NOTHING on the meat industry and anyone that tries to equate the two is delusional.



I would rather see thousands of people reduce their meat intake considerably, even if they don't even become vegetarians, that see a small handful turn into full fledged vegans. On the grand scale of horrors occurring right now in this world, the plight of honey bees falls far, far down on my list.



I also don't believe that we should be living lives of fear and guilt over what we are eating. I think that all vegetarians and vegans, no matter how far they take it, should celebrate the positive impacts of our lives. I won't name names because its rather obvious, but I find the venom spewed by some of the vegans in this thread and others to quite saddening.
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#66 Old 09-16-2006, 06:34 PM
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Maybe some of you are too close to the issue to realize this, but militant, fanatical positions against things like honey seem completely INSANE to the average person. They don't help convert people to veganism, they just make it seem irrational and it turns people away



Ending animal exploitation is one issue you can never be "too close" to.



Embracing all animal life as worthy of compassion is irrational?



It's reverse for me. If veganism didn't promote the end to bee exploitation then it would be just as wishy washy as flexitarianism. If I was the "average person" and was reading a vegan article saying something to the effect of "we think bees are plants and support mass killing of them for nothing but human desire" then I would think that was INSANE to a cause supporting the end to animal exploitation.





Saying "No animal products" and "compassion to end suffering for all animals" and then sticking in an "except bees" clause makes just as much sense as someone saying "i love animals" while eating a steak.





again, Apis Vegans make just as much sense as Pescatarians.
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#67 Old 09-16-2006, 06:37 PM
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Um, yeah if I saw an article wherein someone said "we think bees are plants and support mass killing of them for nothing but human desire" then I'd also think that author was rather nutty. I've yet to see anyone say a bee is a plant though. If you could show me where Vegan Outreach said that, I'd have to rethink my position!
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#68 Old 09-16-2006, 06:38 PM
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also.



this is talking about honey to a group of people who already went vegan.



of course the primary desires of veganism is to end the suffering of higher mammals. But once your at the level of vegan - giving up honey is a nobrainer.



If one still sees animal products as fine ( be it milk, eggs, or honey) then maybe they should take a step back and be a vegetarian.
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#69 Old 09-16-2006, 06:45 PM
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Vegans don't eat honey.



I quit calling myself vegan because I prefer to use local honey as a sweetener. It is ethically and environmentally superior to most other sweeteners. I'll take logic over dogma any day.
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#70 Old 09-16-2006, 07:07 PM
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Alright, I'm not Vegan (feel free to throw things at me). I stir honey into my tea, use free-ranged eggs and some dairy.

I plan to be vegan one day, when I'm living on my own, and no, I won't use honey for all the reasons mentioned in this thread.

That's fine, dandy and whatnot.

However to critisize somebody who has already given up meat, eggs and dairy and tell them that they might as well eat cheese omlettes seems a little counterproductive, does it not?

I was talking to a friend of mine the week I ate vegan [It was a challenge from my omni friend: she'd be veggie if I'd be vegan for a week], and we were talking about breakfast:

Me: "Bleh. I had to have oatmeal two days in a row because I just found out my regular cereal's got honey in it."

Him: "HONEY? Honey. Right. Now THAT'S not a little crazy...."

It should be mentioned that this friend is usually really supportive of my vegetarianism and thought my flirting with veganism was great. He even promised me that he would cut back on his family's meat consumption. But honey was indeed the line where vegans are nutcases, and in this case it might have been a little counterproductive.

(Please don't kill me...)
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#71 Old 09-16-2006, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue Plastic Straw View Post

Vegans don't eat honey.



I quit calling myself vegan because I prefer to use local honey as a sweetener. It is ethically and environmentally superior to most other sweeteners. I'll take logic over dogma any day.



ethically superior to most other sweeteners?



...heh. k.
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#72 Old 09-17-2006, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by kpickell View Post

pointing out that some vegans do consume honey (like it or not)

That's just not true.. VEGANs do not consume honey. A person consuming honey= NOT a vegan.



I just don't understand the need some people have to call themselves something they're not.
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#73 Old 09-17-2006, 05:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by troub View Post

ethically superior to most other sweeteners?



...heh. k.



Sure. I think you might be able to make that argument. Many folks live in places where locally farmed sugar is not available. The farming of sugar uses more soil/water than does honey. I don't think most folks who use honey buy local farmed stuff from folks who don't kill their bees, but it's possible.



Honey's not a particularly important issue to me. It's not vegan though, despite what VO says. They are attempting to rewrite the commonly accepted defintion of vegan which is something like "a person who refrains from using animal products", maybe with a "to the best of their ability" proviso in there.

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#74 Old 09-17-2006, 05:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Diana View Post

You know, I've learned something today. ( http://www.spscriptorium.com/SPinfo/SPlessons.htm )



And that is that kpickell doesn't give a f*** about bees.



I had learned some time ago that he also thinks that it's okay to eat eggs if they are Happy Eggs. (For any newcomers to VeggieBoards, Happy Eggs are a VeggieBoard fantasy that some members believe in, insofar that Eggs can be cruelty free.)



So methinks that kpickell does not quite grasp the vegan philosophy.



Does kp call himself a vegan?

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#75 Old 09-17-2006, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by kpickell View Post

If people don't understand why you're wanting them to avoid honey or sponges, they aren't going to be able to buy into veganism.



Oh, when I explain it to people, they understand very well.



It's like troub said, it's not like rocket science. It's very easy to understand.



I think people who don't understand don't give a shi* about bees, that's all. They have no empathy for them because they are not cuddly and cute and you can't kiss them on the nose.
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#76 Old 09-17-2006, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by *Cringe* View Post

Alright, I'm not Vegan (feel free to throw things at me). I stir honey into my tea, use free-ranged eggs and some dairy.

I plan to be vegan one day, when I'm living on my own, and no, I won't use honey for all the reasons mentioned in this thread.

That's fine, dandy and whatnot.

However to critisize somebody who has already given up meat, eggs and dairy and tell them that they might as well eat cheese omlettes seems a little counterproductive, does it not?

I was talking to a friend of mine the week I ate vegan [It was a challenge from my omni friend: she'd be veggie if I'd be vegan for a week], and we were talking about breakfast:

Me: "Bleh. I had to have oatmeal two days in a row because I just found out my regular cereal's got honey in it."

Him: "HONEY? Honey. Right. Now THAT'S not a little crazy...."

It should be mentioned that this friend is usually really supportive of my vegetarianism and thought my flirting with veganism was great. He even promised me that he would cut back on his family's meat consumption. But honey was indeed the line where vegans are nutcases, and in this case it might have been a little counterproductive.

(Please don't kill me...)



I generally agree with you, but I do think omnivores categorizing vegans as nutcases is a little rich. I personally think the actions of most omnivores are incredibly bizarre and nuts.



Most of the more open-minded omnivores who I have discussed veganism with in general terms, even if they don't change their lifestyles, tell me they believe that veganism makes a hell of a lot more sense than the track the rest of the world is on. Although, I generally avoid getting in to talk about honey. Do I avoid it? Yes. Do I empathize with bees? Yes. Do I think it's an issue that's going to engage people and be what draws them to veganism? No way.



I agree that it is pretty self-defeating to say if someone isn't willing to go "all the way" that they should just eat meat or cheese omelettes or whatever. That serves no purpose, and causes harm to animals. People should be applauded for the moves they make towards a less cruel lifestyle, and I would never argue that if they're not vegan yet they should just eat a hamburger.



But they also shouldn't expect sugar-coating either. For example, if you read Ludi's posts about chickens and eggs, you'll see it's pretty much impossible to buy "cruelty-free" or "free-range" eggs, except perhaps from rescued hens (which comprise roughly 0.0000000000000001% of egg production). So while I think it's wonderful that you've done so much already, I DON'T think it falls into the same category as saying you should just go eat a steak because you're not vegan, to gently remind you (or others) about things.



It's a continual process for everyone though. I know I personally am looking at other aspects of my life and how I can minimize harm there, now that I have conquered many of the "biggies." Nobody's perfect yet.
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#77 Old 09-17-2006, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Diana View Post

you can't kiss them on the nose.



you COULD... although... you might end up with a red nose...
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#78 Old 09-17-2006, 09:20 AM
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story time:



The other day when I was walking by the wildflowers near my apartment - A bee "buzzed me" and I walked a little faster to get away, but it landed on me and started to sting, I went to woosh it away, but got pricked. Luckly the stinger didn't get stuck.



I was happier that the bee didn't die from losing its stinger then upset that i got stung. And yes I was also happy that it was just a prick and not a full sting lol.







story time 2:



walked around the wildflowers again a few days later and a fwe butterflys flew around me in a circle - which was completely awesome. saw another deer last night too. man i love living here lol.





anyway back to bee's and honey!
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#79 Old 09-17-2006, 09:30 AM
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Sure. I think you might be able to make that argument. Many folks live in places where locally farmed sugar is not available.



If no stevia/agave nectar/maple syrup is available and honey was the only local grown sweetener available it still wouldnt be 'ethically' superior, Thats like saying local dairy is more ethical then ricemilk that has to be shipped in.

I could see a case being made that it was environmentaly superior then the others, but no sweetener at all would be even MORE environmentally and ethically superior. whats wrong with no sweetener at all? why is everyone addicted to sugar.
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#80 Old 09-17-2006, 10:06 AM
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I also don't understand this addiction to sugar. It is surely not healthy. And it's fattening.



And why this obsession with HONEY??? We are not BEARS!!!!!!!!



http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pud...hBearHoney.jpg



It's almost as bad as the obsession with Eggs.



http://www.cen.ulaval.ca/bylot/images/photo_S02-3.jpg
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#81 Old 09-17-2006, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by troub View Post

ethically superior to most other sweeteners?



...heh. k.



Of course. How many insects die on the front of the trucks that are shipping your sugarcane from Florida? How many insects die in the process of harvesting? How many mammals, reptiles and amphibians are killed in the process of sugar cane, sugar beet, rice harvesting? What is the environmental impact of growing agave, processing it, and shipping it to most of North America?



I've watched the honey I buy being harvested. I know that this small hobbyist bee-keeper over-winters his bees. This may not be the situation for everyone who consumes honey, but for me, this is by far the most ethical choice.



Sure, I could toe the party line, but making environmentally and ethically sound choices is more important to me than any label. However, anyone who tries to tell me that the honey that I buy is no different from milk and eggs is flat out ignorant.
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#82 Old 09-17-2006, 12:24 PM
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I also don't understand this addiction to sugar. It is surely not healthy. And it's fattening.

I think anyone with properly plugged-in tastebuds can agree that sweet flavours are palate-pleasing. I don't see why it's used in such voluminous amounts in some desserts(I do prefer more mildly sweet things sometimes), but come on. A little maple syrup/agave nectar/molasses/etc. drizzled over oatmeal, smoothie, toast...whatever, it tastes good.
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#83 Old 09-17-2006, 12:34 PM
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I think anyone with properly plugged-in tastebuds can agree that sweet flavours are palate-pleasing. I don't see why it's used in such voluminous amounts in some desserts(I do prefer more mildly sweet things sometimes), but come on. A little maple syrup/agave nectar/molasses/etc. drizzled over oatmeal, smoothie, toast...whatever, it tastes good.

Well I dunno.. I've never used honey, except in some rare circumstances, and I don't use syrup or those other things either. I use sugar, certainly, but that's about it.

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#84 Old 09-17-2006, 12:51 PM
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Diana never said it didn't taste good. Just that it wasn't healthy, and it was fattening. :-p
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#85 Old 09-17-2006, 12:55 PM
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Sevenseas, I'm interested on your viewpoint of those articles I posted about the cognitive level of bees. What are your thoughts? I just read them myself before I posted them and still thinking about it all.
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#86 Old 09-17-2006, 01:15 PM
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I find it amusing how people get so into the idea of being part of a larger group and needing to be defined in some way as if that makes up who you are. I eat vegan almost all of the time, but I don't call myself vegan or identify with that. I simply try to eat and live that way... at best I call myself a vegetarian only to specify to people that I don't eat meat. I just don't get this need to identify with a group so much. Sure, I love vegan cooking, I watch vegan cooking shows, I collect vegan cookbooks, etc., but I don't feel such a need to be pigeon-holed into a category just to part of a larger group.



But that's just me.



As far as honey goes. Typically, no, I don't eat honey. However, I can get honey from someone I know locally who has some hives and produces organic honey. Her bees are NOT ever hurt, the hive is never emptied. It is a tiny endeavor and serves mostly friends and family. She does it because she loves bees and loves honey. Do I not eat that honey just because if I do it will ruin my precious title of "vegan"? No. I eat it on occassion and appreciate how it is gotten. I don't eat it often as I do try to avoid simple sugars in abundance since I am diabetic, but I honestly do not see the ethical issue in this case.



I also have a friend who has some chickens on her farm. She's vegetarian and raises the chickens for eggs and as pets. It's a labor of love. I'll eat those eggs any day. She also has goats and cows for milk, but.. yuck.. I just can't do that. Milk grosses me out.



Like I said, I'm a vegetarian who often eats vegan, but I'm not going to try to label myself and act according to the label... I eat ethically according to my own conscience and that's good enough for me.



I just don't think any issue is so black and white. But as for buying honey at a store... it's just bad business.



And yeah, if you want to be a "vegan" then no honey. Period. But that's just a label anyway.



Flame away.
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#87 Old 09-17-2006, 02:00 PM
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Sevenseas, I'm interested on your viewpoint of those articles I posted about the cognitive level of bees. What are your thoughts? I just read them myself before I posted them and still thinking about it all.

I think the capability to learn and to recognize concepts was convincingly established. The question would focus more on the question (mentioned by the articles in question) of whether it's innate ("instict") or genuinely cognitive. For example, next to one part you emphasized, that

The main difference is that honey bees are much quicker at deciphering what the experimenter wants than are pigeons and other standard laboratory animals.,

the article stated: Another difference is that the researchers testing honey bees chose to interpret their results as indicating an innate sense of symmetry in bees, and thus a noncognitive basis for their results (Giurfa et al. 1996).



I guess there are at least strong physiological reasons (the level of the nervous system) for assuming that mammals, birds et al have a higher level of cognition (probably including a higher level of communication), and that cognitive performance of insects implying the contrary could be innate. But in any case, I agree with you that "Bees are much more then we make them out to be(e)."

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#88 Old 09-17-2006, 09:40 PM
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I find it amusing how people get so into the idea of being part of a larger group and needing to be defined in some way as if that makes up who you are. I eat vegan almost all of the time, but I don't call myself vegan or identify with that. I simply try to eat and live that way... at best I call myself a vegetarian only to specify to people that I don't eat meat. I just don't get this need to identify with a group so much. Sure, I love vegan cooking, I watch vegan cooking shows, I collect vegan cookbooks, etc., but I don't feel such a need to be pigeon-holed into a category just to part of a larger group.



But that's just me.



As far as honey goes. Typically, no, I don't eat honey. However, I can get honey from someone I know locally who has some hives and produces organic honey. Her bees are NOT ever hurt, the hive is never emptied. It is a tiny endeavor and serves mostly friends and family. She does it because she loves bees and loves honey. Do I not eat that honey just because if I do it will ruin my precious title of "vegan"? No. I eat it on occassion and appreciate how it is gotten. I don't eat it often as I do try to avoid simple sugars in abundance since I am diabetic, but I honestly do not see the ethical issue in this case.



I also have a friend who has some chickens on her farm. She's vegetarian and raises the chickens for eggs and as pets. It's a labor of love. I'll eat those eggs any day. She also has goats and cows for milk, but.. yuck.. I just can't do that. Milk grosses me out.



Like I said, I'm a vegetarian who often eats vegan, but I'm not going to try to label myself and act according to the label... I eat ethically according to my own conscience and that's good enough for me.



I just don't think any issue is so black and white. But as for buying honey at a store... it's just bad business.



And yeah, if you want to be a "vegan" then no honey. Period. But that's just a label anyway.



Flame away.

That was a nice post.
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#89 Old 09-17-2006, 11:01 PM
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I find it amusing how people get so into the idea of being part of a larger group and needing to be defined in some way as if that makes up who you are. Like I said, I'm a vegetarian who often eats vegan, but I'm not going to try to label myself and act according to the label...

You seem to wish yourself outside of the box. Yet you label yourself a vegetarian. Labels, names, adjectives, etc., are all part of life. They define who and what we are. Groups are also not negitive by nature, ie: race, color, creed, culture, club, tribe, family. Some labels are chosen, some are thrust upon us at birth. To be undefined is to be nonexistent
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#90 Old 09-18-2006, 07:13 AM
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You seem to wish yourself outside of the box. Yet you label yourself a vegetarian. Labels, names, adjectives, etc., are all part of life. They define who and what we are. Groups are also not negitive by nature, ie: race, color, creed, culture, club, tribe, family. Some labels are chosen, some are thrust upon us at birth. To be undefined is to be nonexistent





Agreed, but I am talking more so about it in an extreme sense. Obviously I have labels.. we all do, but I suppose I was referring more to chasing labels... if that makes sense.
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