do all vegans here not consume any honey? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 09-15-2006, 10:53 AM
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I meant in forms of communication, but perhaps I did get a little overzealous in that post.



Here is an article on a cognitive study of bees, specificly Apis mellifera. It's an interesting read.



Quote:

"(In the past) many researchers thought that this kind of learning -- learning of an abstract rule, which is independent of the stimuli used -- can only be possible in primates and human beings. Here (in this experiment) we show that this is not true. Abstract rules can also be mastered by the mini brain of a honeybee."



"It is an exciting discovery," said a leading bee authority, Professor Michael S. Engel, curator of the division of entomology at the University of Kansas. "Early in the last century, (zoologist Karl) von Frisch shattered our concept of insect cognitive capacities by demonstrating that honeybees communicated by an abstract language -- that is, via the famous 'waggle dance. ' This eventually won him the Nobel Prize.



If not surpassing hamsters, they still show a cognitive level of more then just acting soley on external stimuli as is a venus flytrap for example.



If the bee's could recognise (ie> remember) the marked path as the one with sugar, then they should be respected in the same way we respect other low-level animals with similar levels of thought.







I also believe dolphins should be given rights near equal to that of humans, ie. Right to life, liberty, and territory. Because of their very very high end cognitive level, but thats another argument entirely.
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#32 Old 09-15-2006, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by troub View Post

So what is the cut off that makes bees unworthy of compassion?

They don't scream? They don't bleed red?

Their honey just tastes too good to bother about caring?



Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head. They don't scream nor bleed.



And also they are not CUDDLY.
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#33 Old 09-15-2006, 11:03 AM
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Can Honey Bees Create "Cognitive Maps"?

James L. Gould

http://grimpeur.tamu.edu/~colin/TCA/...ould-final.rtf



Quote:

The evidence that honey bees can perform tasks that are considered to require cognitive powers when displayed by higher vertebrates suggests at least three possibilities. One is that cognition is a capacity that has evolved as needed among animals, independent of size, number of legs, or whether the creature has an external or internal skeleton. As such, cognitive differences between phyla would be quantitative rather than qualitative (Gould and Gould 1994).



Another (not mutually exclusive) possibility suggested by these observations is that behaviors that require cognition in humans may be innate in "lower" species. Thus it could be that map formation and use by bees is hardwired, using the kind of fill-in-the-blanks strategy so evident in their learning (Gould and Towne 1987); in rodents and primates, on the other hand, the ability is genuinely cognitive -- that is, it is not a consequence of innate preparation.



A third alternative is that the human capacities we commonly label as cognitive have, at least in part, an unappreciated innate basis (Gould and Gould 1994). The animal kingdom is filled with examples of innately directed learning, including no less an achievement than human language (Gould and Marler 1984). This possibility, for which there is considerable suggestive evidence in the form of species-specific "cognitive" abilities (Shettleworth 1998), brings us back to the basic definition of cognition: by the strictest standards, perhaps there is no genuine cognition in any species, our own included. To the extent that cognition is a product of evolution, we should not be surprised if natural selection has provided a rich set of adaptive biases that help shape cognitive performance.

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#34 Old 09-15-2006, 11:06 AM
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Concepts are abstractions that make it possible for animals to solve novel choice problems without prior experience of the specific exemplars offered. For instance, pigeons can learn such concepts as tree, fish, or human (Herrnstein 1984). Alex the parrot can identify the color, material, number, and other characteristics of an object or object set without having seen the object(s) before (Pepperberg 1990). The animals in these tests depend instead on an abstract property or (in the case of pigeons, set of properties of probabilistic value) that is independent of the exemplar.



Preliminary tests showed that honey bees could learn to recognize and distinguish human letters independent of size, color, position, or font (Gould and Gould 1988). Recent work has focussed on more specific concept-related questions. In one set of tests, foragers were taught that symmetrical targets offered food while asymmetrical ones did not (Giurfa et al. 1996); in another set they were taught the opposite lesson. By the seventh visit, the bees could chose the correct novel stimulus over the incorrect one.



The learning curve is different from that of more standard tests, in which bees are taught that a particular odor, color, or shape is always rewarded: during concept learning there is no evident improvement over chance performance until about the fifth or sixth test, whereas in normal learning there is incremental improvement beginning with the first test. This delay is characteristic of what has been called "learning how to learn," which is interpreted as a kind of "ah-ha" point at which the animal figures out the task (Schwartz 1984).



The main difference is that honey bees are much quicker at deciphering what the experimenter wants than are pigeons and other standard laboratory animals. Another difference is that the researchers testing honey bees chose to interpret their results as indicating an innate sense of symmetry in bees, and thus a noncognitive basis for their results (Giurfa et al. 1996). Of course, on the one hand there is good evidence that human infants prefer symmetrical visual stimuli (Grammer and Thornhill 1994) (which would argue that symmetry is not entirely a learned concept for humans either), while on the other we are still left to wonder what sort of mental leap allowed these bees to understand that this particular concept was the one that the experimenters wanted them to key in on.

emphasis mine.





Bees are much more then we make them out to be(e).
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#35 Old 09-15-2006, 11:37 AM
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As a vegan I do not use honey or any bee products. As already stated honey is an animal product and vegans abstain from using animal products. Quite simple. When I first became vegan I didn't know about the honey industry and never thougt about it. But after I was vegan for a couple of months I saw a program on the Home and Garden channel (therefor non-biased) about honey production. The bee keeper was introducing a new queen to the hive because the hive wasn't producing enough honey. I saw him take a putty knife and cut the old queen in half and then quarters. I couldn't believe my eyes. And his attitude about it was awful. He said something to the effect that she wasn't making him enough money so she had to go. At that point I gave up honey and have researched to support that desicion. I am sure there are bee keepers who do not mistreat their bees, but how can you tell? So I just avoid it completely. Plus the thought of eating bee vomit doesn't appeal to me.
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#36 Old 09-15-2006, 11:38 AM
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sorry double post
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#37 Old 09-16-2006, 12:20 AM
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I dont eat honey. Agave nectar is just as good.
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#38 Old 09-16-2006, 12:31 AM
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I avoid Honey.
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#39 Old 09-16-2006, 12:36 AM
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Not all "vegans" avoid honey but those who don't aren't going to make it widly known on these boards, since it might exclude them from the 'cool vegans clubhouse'.
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#40 Old 09-16-2006, 12:50 AM
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If vegans eat honey, then vegetarians can eat fish.



And I plan to make it widely known in vegetarian club house.



No, actually I won't. Because vegetarians do not eat fish, anymore than vegans eat honey.



If you DO eat honey, then you're a vegetarian.



Vegans do NOT consume products that come from an animal. Why is that so difficult for people to understand? Nor do they wear silk, nor wool.



Honey = Animal Products.

Vegan = Does not eat animal products.



Jesus bloody Christ. Why is HONEY not considered an animal product by some people??? Do they have neurones in their brains that are not connected or something????
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#41 Old 09-16-2006, 01:22 AM
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eh, some always seem to be a bit confused about these titles. A lot of people don't realize that bugs are animals.



One member in this thread used the term dietary vegan and I appreciate that.
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#42 Old 09-16-2006, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaya View Post


One member in this thread used the term dietary vegan and I appreciate that.

About honey-eating? Honey isn't appropriate for "dietary vegans" any more than vegans, IMO.

-

Something that I find additionally problematic in Michael Greger's approach (in the previous link to a Satya article) is that he's not only saying that vegans can eat honey but that honey itself is vegan. I don't want products with honey in them to get the Vegan symbol, so that I couldn't rely on that symbol anymore.

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#43 Old 09-16-2006, 07:36 AM
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I've been various version of veg*n since the age of 11 and I've fallen into the habbit of taking my veganism for granted and not questioning things any more. I didn't think that any harm or suffering was done to bees, so I ate honey without a problem. But I was wrong.



Recently a young friend of mine informed me about how honey is farmed, and I no longer eat it.



I do feel stupid though. Imagine accepting unquestioningly for all those years that bees produce honey for human consumption alone and are happy to share it with us!! Its as bad as believing that cows produce milk all their lives just so humans can enjoy it.
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#44 Old 09-16-2006, 07:36 AM
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Delete.
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#45 Old 09-16-2006, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I think the problem with at least the VeganOutreach approach is that it defines Veganism as something like "avoid cruelty". I, on the other hand, think veganism should be about "no animal products", which excludes honey. For the same reason, I don't consider all freegans vegan.



But this doesn't mean that I think only veganism can be ethical. Rather, I consider freeganism to be generally much more cruelty-free than veganism.

You're correct here, however I believe in and support Vegan Outreach's definition that "vegans choose to avoid animal products which cause suffering". I don't like the dogmatic "no animal product" definition that most people go by, as it's just makes veganism look stupid avoiding products for no reason except that they happen to fall into an arbitrary kingdom classification (think sponges).
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#46 Old 09-16-2006, 08:28 AM
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i eat honey. i guess my stage of veganism right now is avoiding milk and egg, and obviously processed foods that include them. keep in mind that ive become a vegan a month ago. but, i still consider myself a vegan, just not a strict one. i mean, taking out milk and eggs and meat seems like i'm doing enough help to satisfy myself. eating honey does not bother me, then again i have not done research yet. eh please no one think i'm ignorant!
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#47 Old 09-16-2006, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpickell View Post

"vegans choose to avoid animal products which cause suffering".



honey causes suffering to bees, therefore honey would match this definition. Thats like saying that since sometimes dairy doesn't cause suffering, or sometimes eggs don't cause suffering, then those are vegan too.



however eating roadkill does not cause suffering at all, but if you ate roadkill you are not vegan. A gunshot to the head doesn't really cause much suffering either, pretty much insta-death, so anything killed via a gunshot to the head is ok to eat then? since they didn't suffer?



the definition above would be more akin to freeganism. Ethical? Sure. Vegan? No.



Oh, I also do not eat sponges or sponge products, and am not aware of any vegans that do.





Besides, there is already an... easier form of veganism to attract people - its called vegetarianism. It lets you eat dairy and eggs and honey and sometimes fish too. It's very easy to do and still reduces suffering, and lets you still eat omlets for breakfest and have honey in your tea, and wear wool and leather.

Veganism is extreme by definition: No. Animal. Products.

A place like Vegan Outreach should call themselves Vegetarian Outreach if they are so concerned about looking attractive and "seeker-freindly". Veganism isn't about being 'seeker-friendly' and making the most friends - it's about the welfare of animalkind, the welfare of humankind, and the welfare of this very planet.
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#48 Old 09-16-2006, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

About honey-eating? Honey isn't appropriate for "dietary vegans" any more than vegans, IMO.

Never said honey was appropriate for vegans. One of the definitions for vegans is

"A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather."



Granted, leather, silk, wool, and fur are never on my shopping list but I know that I use products derived from animals i.e., health care, my car...foam...it's every where. eta: I ran across some info a few years ago mentioning how animal products are used in certain plastics. So, I like "dietary vegan" because it's a bit more accurate imo.
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#49 Old 09-16-2006, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by nutella View Post




Recently a young friend of mine informed me about how honey is farmed, and I no longer eat it.





Your young friend sounds very wise indeed.
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#50 Old 09-16-2006, 10:41 AM
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I'm a vegan and don't eat honey. To me, it would be like eat eggs or dairy, because the bees are almost always killed off when winter comes because it is cheaper to buy new bees than care for them over the winter.
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#51 Old 09-16-2006, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpickell View Post

I don't like the dogmatic "no animal product" definition that most people go by, as it's just makes veganism look stupid avoiding products for no reason except that they happen to fall into an arbitrary kingdom classification (think sponges).



It's not for "no reason," and it's not "arbitrary."
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#52 Old 09-16-2006, 12:17 PM
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You know, I've learned something today. ( http://www.spscriptorium.com/SPinfo/SPlessons.htm )



And that is that kpickell doesn't give a f*** about bees.



I had learned some time ago that he also thinks that it's okay to eat eggs if they are Happy Eggs. (For any newcomers to VeggieBoards, Happy Eggs are a VeggieBoard fantasy that some members believe in, insofar that Eggs can be cruelty free.)



So methinks that kpickell does not quite grasp the vegan philosophy.
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#53 Old 09-16-2006, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpickell View Post

You're correct here, however I believe in and support Vegan Outreach's definition that "vegans choose to avoid animal products which cause suffering". I don't like the dogmatic "no animal product" definition that most people go by, as it's just makes veganism look stupid avoiding products for no reason except that they happen to fall into an arbitrary kingdom classification (think sponges).

Well it isn't a dogmatic definition to me, simply a practical one, in the sense that it draws a rather clear line and doesn't involve ethical questions about what harm is justified etc. In this sense, I am advocating a kind of separation of veganism and ethics. What is ethically right is one thing. What fits the technical definition of 'vegan' is another thing.



But it's true that this strict definition may make veganism more difficult to approach for some people, so I dunno.

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#54 Old 09-16-2006, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpickell View Post

I don't like the dogmatic "no animal product" definition that most people go by, as it's just makes veganism look stupid avoiding products for no reason except that they happen to fall into an arbitrary kingdom classification (think sponges).



I assure you there is a good reason for everything vegans avoid.



You don't have to like it or agree with it. But what do you gain from disagreeing with it? That's what I don't get.



Why do you even care how the world views vegans or veganism?



And frankly if, as a vegan, I look like a dogmatic nutjob for not eating honey then you know what? I don't give a rat's arse what people think of me or what I do.



Honestly, I don't think there's a single person here who undermines veg*nism as much as kpickell.



As for honey, I don't know if bees feel pain. But I don't know that they don't either. And since giving up honey is no hardship whatsoever I give it up. I'm giving bees the benefit of the doubt here.



What is so great about honey that people find so hard to abstain from it? Why is this even a topic of discussion for crying out loud???



Cheers!

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#55 Old 09-16-2006, 04:12 PM
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I take it you guys (troub, jeezy and diane) did not read the links I posted (veganoutreach). Otherwise you'd already know the answers to the questions you're asking me, and you'd know why there are vegans who do not actively support avoiding honey. Ultimately you're driving people away from veganism which causes them to consume more meat and dairy. So it's not that I don't give a **** about bees, as Diane says, it's that I care more about cows and pigs than I do about bees and I'd rather people give veganism a chance than dismiss it is as nonsensical. If people don't understand why you're wanting them to avoid honey or sponges, they aren't going to be able to buy into veganism.



Sevenseas, I can appreciate your viewpoint and I actually think you are correct. I just have trouble seperating veganism from ethics, because I fail to see the point of veganism if ethics are not the motivation.
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#56 Old 09-16-2006, 04:59 PM
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People aren't exactly lining up around the block to become vegans and I would think that out of meat, eggs, dairy, leather, etc, that honey and sponges would be pretty low on the list of things that make people question being vegan.



Really. You think it's the honey and sponges that turn people off and get them eating meat, milk and eggs?



I doubt for many people it's ever come down to: "Weeeeell, I really wanted to be vegan, but I can't eat honey, so I guess it's off to the steakhouse I go. Too bad. If it wasn't for that one single honey thing, they so would have had me. Please pass the milk."



They might not become vegans but if they're at all on that path then there's always vegetarianism.



Nothing to stop them from adopting that middleground. Vegetarians can eat honey. They can use sponges. They can wear leather. Etc.



In all honesty I care more about cows and pigs than bees too. But I still care about bees. You know?



Cheers!

TJ
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#57 Old 09-16-2006, 05:05 PM
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These threads are funny because they're always the same.
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#58 Old 09-16-2006, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpickell View Post

If people don't understand why you're wanting them to avoid honey or sponges, they aren't going to be able to buy into veganism.

It's not rocket science.

It's not hard to understand.





* Veganism is a belief that advocates animal welfare and/or animal rights - Vegans do not participate in the explotation and use of animal products to the best of their abilities.



* Bees are animals in phylum arthropoda.



* Honey is a bee product, and therefore an animal product.



* As a vegan, one does not participate in the explotation of an animal for no just reason other then "HonAY TASSYTTS GUUDE LOLo1l1!1"





* Conclusion: A vegan shouldn't participate in consuming honey, as it is unnecessary exploitation of an animal with no real benifit except ones own cravings. With viable 'substitues' honey is probably the easiest animal product to quit using.







Further ethical points:



* Bees have at least some sort of shape recognition and memory recall which could mean a form of cogniscience. In tests they 'learned' quicker then pigeons. (from previous links posted)



* As an animal in the same phylum as lobsters, and the chance they maintain a form of cogniscience, we can conclude they may actualy feel pain and may actualy suffer.



* If for no reason but the chance they could suffer, one with a compassion heart would quit supporting their explotation.









Honestly - If a vegan already gives up dairy, eggs, pork, beef, chicken, seafood, gelatin, shellac, lanolin, wool, leather, and silk - honey is the EASIEST animal product to quit using.



If a "vegan" doesn't understand the reasoning behind giving up honey, or a vegan-seeker throws it all aside and grabs a burger for no other reason then that they don't understand why being a vegan means no-honey then perhaps they would be suited better with lacto-ovo'ism, pescatarianism, or flexitarianism.







Or if someone has no problem giving up shellac or gelatin or eggs or dairy or silk or wool, but honey turns them away from the whole belief, then maybe that person would be better suited stacking alphabet blocks in kindergarden.
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#59 Old 09-16-2006, 05:18 PM
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#60 Old 09-16-2006, 05:21 PM
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Eh, Vegan Outreach said it better than I'll be able to, so I'll leave it with what was said. I was only answering the OPs question and pointing out that some vegans do consume honey (like it or not) and they believe in Vegan Outreach's approach to the issue.
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