What is the Vegan Society trademark even worth? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 03-17-2018, 07:09 AM
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What is the Vegan Society trademark even worth?

From what I gather the Vegan Society don't send investigators around to examine every part of the production process of every single thing that is used in the making of the product that the vegan society logo is being attempted to be registered for. Meaning essentially all that we have is the Vegan Society's word, that they have the product manufacturers word, that the product is actually vegan. Which can be no better than the manufacturer themselves describing their product as vegan on the packaging; and I suspect is much worse in fact, because I suspect it enables a manufacturer to claim that they never advertised their product as vegan themselves if all they've done is put someone else's trademark on the product, in the event that the product is found out to be unsuitable for vegans. Note how several companies do this whole being careful not to claim any of their products as being vegan anywhere on the packaging themselves, but are happy to put the Vegan Society's trademark on all of them.

The same things I've said here could apply to The Vegetarian Society's or anyone elses trademarks, regarding the respective group each trademark is alluding to a product being suitable for.
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#2 Old 03-17-2018, 01:08 PM
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From what I gather the Vegan Society don't send investigators around to examine every part of the production process of every single thing that is used in the making of the product that the vegan society logo is being attempted to be registered for. Meaning essentially all that we have is the Vegan Society's word, that they have the product manufacturers word, that the product is actually vegan.
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The same things I've said here could apply to The Vegetarian Society's or anyone elses trademarks, regarding the respective group each trademark is alluding to a product being suitable for.
Not sure which country you reside in unjustifiable existence but I'll presume it's the UK.

Please tell me who you think should/would pay the Vegan Society (UK) to "send investigators around to examine every part of the production process of every single thing that is used in the making of the product that the vegan society logo is being attempted for"?

Also what is to stop a company from changing a product so that it's no longer suitable for vegans, a week after being authorised to use the Vegan Society (UK) trademark logo? Do you think that these companies should be visited on a frequent basis? If so, again who pays?

As I understand from googling, the Vegan Society (UK) usually receives less than half its yearly income from logo trademark charges. Of course companies can save themselves from paying this money, and they often do, by using their own "vegan logo". So who should police these companies to ensure that they are being truthful in using the logo?

The membership of the Vegan Society (UK) is still only around 5k with the number of vegans in the UK estimated to be in excess of 300k. Perhaps if more people joined the Society, so contributing to it financially, the Society could aim to be more ambitious in what it does?

(I'm sure similar comments could be made about the Vegetarian Society UK and its trademark logo. As a matter of interest, I've been a member of each society for 21 years (Vegan) and 27 years (Vegetarian).

Lv

(IF you're not in the UK, the general points I'm making still stand.)

Last edited by leedsveg; 03-17-2018 at 01:13 PM.
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#3 Old 03-17-2018, 02:24 PM
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At least in part due to the dramatic increase in awareness of and impact of allergies, there are pretty rigorous standards in the UK for food manufacture and labelling.
Unless there is some evidence of the misuse of the Vegan Society label, I doubt there's much to be suspicious about.
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#4 Old 03-17-2018, 07:12 PM
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From what I gather the Vegan Society don't send investigators around to examine every part of the production process of every single thing that is used in the making of the product that the vegan society logo is being attempted to be registered for. Meaning essentially all that we have is the Vegan Society's word, that they have the product manufacturers word, that the product is actually vegan. Which can be no better than the manufacturer themselves describing their product as vegan on the packaging; and I suspect is much worse in fact, because I suspect it enables a manufacturer to claim that they never advertised their product as vegan themselves if all they've done is put someone else's trademark on the product, in the event that the product is found out to be unsuitable for vegans. Note how several companies do this whole being careful not to claim any of their products as being vegan anywhere on the packaging themselves, but are happy to put the Vegan Society's trademark on all of them.

The same things I've said here could apply to The Vegetarian Society's or anyone elses trademarks, regarding the respective group each trademark is alluding to a product being suitable for.

I supposed that these things are possible. Without proof, however, this is just conspiracy theorizing.

Here's something that I do know: My bowl of fruit - contaminated or no - contains much, much less meat than a hamburger.

Veganism serves to minimize violence. It's worth it. I've been doing it for 27 years.
.
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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
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http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 03-17-2018 at 07:20 PM.
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#5 Old 03-18-2018, 06:20 AM
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I supposed that these things are possible. Without proof, however, this is just conspiracy theorizing.
I agree David3.

The idea that companies which have the Vegan Society (UK) logo on their products are not really claiming that their products are suitable for vegans, seems a bit bizarre to me. As I understand it, before a product can display the VS logo, the company goes through the ingredients and processes used in making the product, with the VS. Why either the VS or the manufacturer would want to "cheat" with VS logo certification, I have no idea because to do so would risk receiving a whole load of devastating negative publicity.

Lv

Last edited by leedsveg; 03-18-2018 at 07:58 AM. Reason: Spelling error
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#6 Old 03-19-2018, 06:16 AM
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What do you mean by processes ? Clarification of a juice ? Using animal glue in shoes , books etc. ? I am pretty sure that many vegetarians and even vegans are drinking juice clarified by gelatine without knowing it , gelatine is not mentioned in ingredients , in many countries vegan societies are not very active but that does not mean you should drink milk or eat meat . Probably better not to share such facts with non-vegans as they may use it as a excuse or push people who are ready to exclude animal products from their lives .
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#7 Old 03-19-2018, 06:20 AM
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Do you mean by processes a clarification of juice ?
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#8 Old 03-19-2018, 08:12 AM
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What do you mean by processes ? Clarification of a juice ? Using animal glue in shoes , books etc. ?.



Whoa - here is another set of myths that we need to avoid perpetuating.

It has been decades since animal glue has been used in shoes and books. Animal glues are vastly inferior to the many modern, affordable, synthetic adhesives - epoxy, polyurethane, silicone, methacrylate, cyanoacrylate, polyvinyl acetate etc.! Animal glues are used for certain historical restoration projects, to maintain the history authenticity of the item. They are also sometimes used for items that don't need to last very long (like junk mail booklets). I will provide more information, and weblinks, this evening.

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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/
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#9 Old 03-19-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Vlady View Post
What do you mean by processes ? Clarification of a juice ? Using animal glue in shoes , books etc. ? I am pretty sure that many vegetarians and even vegans are drinking juice clarified by gelatine without knowing it , gelatine is not mentioned in ingredients , in many countries vegan societies are not very active but that does not mean you should drink milk or eat meat . Probably better not to share such facts with non-vegans as they may use it as a excuse or push people who are ready to exclude animal products from their lives .
Clarification can be one of the processes in the manufacture of a beverage. For instance traditionally and until recently, all Guinness products were not suitable for vegans because clarification involved using isinglass (fish bladders). The isinglass wouldn't have been mentioned in the ingredients because it was not in the end product. I understand that some Guinness products now have a different clarification method not involving animals (nor their byproducts) and these products are now advertised as being suitable for vegans.

I'd prefer facts such as these about food manufacturing to be as clear and open as possible because until we know the full facts, we're most likely unaware that we need to prod manufacturers into making changes. I'm not really sure that us knowing the facts but refusing to pass them on to non-vegans, would show the integrity of vegans in a very good light.

Lv
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#10 Old 03-19-2018, 10:55 AM
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Thank you but why would than exist companies like ,, Vegetarian shoes " if all textile or plastic shoes are vegan ?
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#11 Old 03-19-2018, 11:24 AM
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I agree about carmine because the bugs are killed just because of the colouring and choosing beetroot colouring can save many lives but there is no point on telling them about juice since they consume gelatine in candies . Non-vegan people often use anti-venom or tyres like the reasons why they eat animal products . If the people are willing to stop using animal products but still far from vegan yet telling them about juices may make them feel frustrated .
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#12 Old 03-19-2018, 12:19 PM
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I agree about carmine because the bugs are killed just because of the colouring and choosing beetroot colouring can save many lives but there is no point on telling them about juice since they consume gelatine in candies . Non-vegan people often use anti-venom or tyres like the reasons why they eat animal products . If the people are willing to stop using animal products but still far from vegan yet telling them about juices may make them feel frustrated .
I understand what you're saying but I think we have to be honest with people if we have a hope of encouraging them to our way of thinking

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Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
This is the Vegan Society's defintion of veganism.

I appreciate that "as far as is possible and practicable" is in practice going to have a slightly different meaning for each individual because every individual's circumstances are going to be different. Going by its definition, the Vegan Society obviously accepts that 100% veganism is impossible and that being so, we're all going to have to make accommodations to get through life.

Now for me, I'll ride on a vehicle with something nonvegan in the tyres and I'll also use nonvegan anti-venom because in both instances, to choose to do otherwise can have very serious/problematic consequences. When it comes to consuming candies or drinks containing gelatine etc I would choose to eat and drink other things which ARE suitable for vegans and easily obtainable. If I'm not prepared to choose alternative vegan items when those alternatives are so easy to come by, then others, especially nonvegans are going to question my principles.

Can't think of anything I could add so I'm out.

Lv

Last edited by leedsveg; 03-19-2018 at 12:22 PM. Reason: spelling
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#13 Old 03-19-2018, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Spudulika View Post
At least in part due to the dramatic increase in awareness of and impact of allergies, there are pretty rigorous standards in the UK for food manufacture and labelling.
Unless there is some evidence of the misuse of the Vegan Society label, I doubt there's much to be suspicious about.
Things can be non-vegan and not contain allergens though
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#14 Old 03-19-2018, 12:27 PM
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Things can be non-vegan and not contain allergens though

Speculation and doubt don't prove a hypothesis.

Please present your evidence.
.

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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/
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#15 Old 03-19-2018, 01:00 PM
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Thank you but why would than exist companies like ,, Vegetarian shoes " if all textile or plastic shoes are vegan ?

For the same reason that the Post breakfast cereal company pays to have the "Non-GMO Project" label on its Shredded Wheat cereal. Certain members of the public are afraid that all crops are GMO. Actually, all 100% whole wheat cereals are non-GMO, because there are no commercially-grown GMO wheat crops. The only current commercially-grown GMO crops are alfalfa, canola, corn (except popcorn), cotton, papaya, soy, sugar beet, and zucchini/yellow squash: https://www.nongmoproject.org/gmo-facts/high-risk/ . (Other GMO crops are in the process of being introduced - such as the non-browning "Arctic" apple).


The same is true of shoes. Except for certain "historical-reenactment-type" shoes, no modern shoes are made with animal-derived glues. Why? Animal-derived glues dissolve in water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue#Modern_uses and https://www.3riversarchery.com/bow-b...hide-glue.html . Few people would choose a pair of shoes that falls apart after the rainy season. Animal glues are also biodegradable, meaning that they are vulnerable to rotting. Animal glues are inferior glues - they have been replaced by low-cost, durable, synthetic glues (I will post more tonight on this).


Look on page 8 of this year 2009 adhesives and sealants marketing report - it shows the worldwide consumption of different types of glues: https://ihsmarkit.com/pdf/2009-SCUP-...0913060132.pdf . All of the listed adhesives are synthetics - epoxy, polyurethane, modified acrylic, cyanoacrylate, silicone, etc. The old animal-derived adhesives - made from animal hide, gelatin, and casein - don't even make the list.


However, many vegans are not aware that animal glues have become obsolete in shoe-manufacturing. Many vegans believe that there are significant amounts of animal products hidden in everything (partly because people keep repeating this misinformation on forums like this). The "Vegetarian Shoe Company", and other companies like it, offer reassurance to vegan consumers who haven't educated themselves regarding modern adhesives and consumer product materials.
.

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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 03-19-2018 at 01:14 PM.
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#16 Old 03-20-2018, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by unjustifiable existence View Post
Things can be non-vegan and not contain allergens though

Speculation and doubt don't prove a hypothesis.

Please present your evidence.
.
Alcoholic drinks clarified with isinglass I'm pretty sure don't have to have an allergy warning because of it. Sugar processed with bone char, the same. Fruits waxed with shellac, and milk derivatives that contain no allergens, I would imagine also.

These are just ways I know food or drink is non-vegan and believe it not to require an allergy warning for the reason it is-non vegan. I don't know the entire production process of every product on the planet. If I did I'm sure I'd know a million ways products are non-vegan and non-allergenic.
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#17 Old 03-20-2018, 12:56 PM
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Alcoholic drinks clarified with isinglass I'm pretty sure don't have to have an allergy warning because of it. Sugar processed with bone char, the same. Fruits waxed with shellac, and milk derivatives that contain no allergens, I would imagine also.

These are just ways I know food or drink is non-vegan and believe it not to require an allergy warning for the reason it is-non vegan. I don't know the entire production process of every product on the planet. If I did I'm sure I'd know a million ways products are non-vegan and non-allergenic.



Yes, and crops are grown in soil that is partly composed of decomposed worms and insects. There's no such thing as 100.0% vegan. Veganism is a diet that minimizes, as far as possible and practicable, the consumption and exploitation of animals. When you start doing the "nothing is 100% vegan" rant (which we've all heard dozens of times before), you discourage people from eliminating animal foods from their diets, and from doing their best to prevent animal suffering. Is that your goal?
.
.

_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 03-20-2018 at 01:14 PM.
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