"Plants have feelings" - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 05-29-2017, 09:22 AM
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"Plants have feelings"

I just had to make this thread because I want to let the thought out somewhere, and I suppose this might be the only place where I won't be completely ridiculed, though maybe a little (since I myself also find this silly). Not sure if I picked the right place to post it, sorry if it was wrong.

I've always felt really connected to plants, almost as much as I connect to animals. I hate killing them, I treat them as if they got feelings etc. Sometimes I get slightly sad about the fact that the type of plant food I eat killed a plant that had lived and grown.
I'm not really sure what to do about these feelings. As it is now I just try to brush them off as silly, which usually works.

Can anyone relate? I don't think I would ever aim to be a fruitarian, but I understand why some might if they feel like I do.
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#2 Old 05-29-2017, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Maara View Post
I just had to make this thread because I want to let the thought out somewhere, and I suppose this might be the only place where I won't be completely ridiculed, though maybe a little (since I myself also find this silly). Not sure if I picked the right place to post it, sorry if it was wrong.

I've always felt really connected to plants, almost as much as I connect to animals. I hate killing them, I treat them as if they got feelings etc. Sometimes I get slightly sad about the fact that the type of plant food I eat killed a plant that had lived and grown.
I'm not really sure what to do about these feelings. As it is now I just try to brush them off as silly, which usually works.

Can anyone relate? I don't think I would ever aim to be a fruitarian, but I understand why some might if they feel like I do.

It's good that you feel close to plants, but no peer-reviewed biology or botany studies have shown that plants feel pain (although plenty of popular websites - especially pro-meat websites - claim otherwise).

Pain is only a useful response if an organism has the ability to reduce that pain (that is, prevent or avoid an injury that causes pain). Plants are immobile, so there is no evolutionary advantage for them to develop neural systems for pain.
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_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 05-29-2017 at 09:50 AM.
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#3 Old 05-29-2017, 10:09 AM
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Here is a website which claims that plants feel pain: http://www.viewzone.com/plants.html

The website claims that a botanist, Bill Williams of the Helvetica Institute, has stated that plants feel pain. Several other websites reference this claim. However, if you actually try to find the Helvetica Institute on the internet, you'll see that it doesn't even exist. The whole claim is an urban myth.

The website also claims that Michigan State University researchers found that plants feel pain. However, the names of the researchers and their study aren't named, which makes this claim very difficulty to verify. I have not found any such study anywhere on Michigan State University's websites.

The bias of the viewzone.com webpage's author becomes very clear when he says, "Vegetarians would do well to investigate this data before claiming to be superior to those of us who do not subscribe to the idea that eating meat is morally wrong.".


It's good that you continue to respect the ecological importance of plants. However, it's a bad idea for vegans to avoid eating the roots and leaves of plants, as you may be considering doing. Certain dark green leafy vegetables (kale, mustard green, collard greens, among others) are important sources of dietary calcium. Sweet potatoes (roots) are important sources of vitamin A.
.
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_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 05-29-2017 at 10:49 AM.
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#4 Old 05-29-2017, 10:19 AM
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Thank you both for your answers I have read and seen tv documentaries about the plant-feeling thing myself as well. From what I remember some plants can signal to other plants if they get "injured", as if to warn other plants (what good that would do i don't know, since they can't protect themselves), I don't remember how, but I found the documentary very interesting (I don't have time to read the link you gave me atm, but I'll check later because it is interesting).

It is however not that that makes me feel this way. Even if they don't feel pain, they are living beings, maybe not living in the same way as me or a bug, but it's alive, and I kill it. I will keep eating, don't worry! I just think it's sad that I have to kill or harm something to live.
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#5 Old 05-29-2017, 10:24 AM
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It is however not that that makes me feel this way. Even if they don't feel pain, they are living beings, maybe not living in the same way as me or a bug, but it's alive, and I kill it. I will keep eating, don't worry! I just think it's sad that I have to kill or harm something to live.

All living beings must eat. Yes, plants live on solar energy (photosynthesis energy) alone, but their caloric requirements are much, much lower than those of animals. Plants do not have to move (quickly), nor do they have to maintain a warm body temperature. As mammals, we must do both. Anyway, we can't perform photosynthesis in our bodies, so please don't try injecting yourself with chlorophyll.

And, for gods sake, please do not believe any of the "breatharian" websites claiming that people can live without consuming physical food. Those frauds should be imprisoned. I have personally met people who have tried breatharianism - all of them returned to consuming food, of course.
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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 05-29-2017 at 10:37 AM.
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#6 Old 05-29-2017, 10:36 AM
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All living beings must eat. Yes, plants live on solar energy (photosynthesis energy) alone, but their caloric requirements are much, much lower than those of animals. Plants do not have to move (quickly), nor do they have to maintain a warm body temperature. As mammals, we must do both.

And, for gods sake, please do not believe any of the "breatharian" websites claiming that people can live without consuming physical food. Those fraud artists should be thrown in prison.
.
Haha, don't worry, I'm not that stupid I will keep eating my beloved plants and pretend that is their purpose and/or that they don't mind. Plants get nutrition from the soil as well though, but I get what you mean, they're interesting beings (do you call plants "beings"?
maybe they don't qualify).
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#7 Old 05-29-2017, 11:00 AM
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Plants get nutrition from the soil as well though, but I get what you mean, ).
Yes, plants get nitrogen and minerals from the soil. However, they obtain their calories from sunlight energy through photosynthesis.

Unfortunately, television is not a good source for accurate science instruction. Where I live (United States), the televised "Science Channel" is showing programs about crop circles and UFOs, with lots of innuendo and eerie music, and very little solid fact.

If you are interested in learning more about plant physiology, I would purchase an academic textbook on the subject. You can also read the studies published in peer-reviewed botany journals, such as these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_botany_journals
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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/
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#8 Old 05-29-2017, 11:19 AM
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Yes, plants get nitrogen and minerals from the soil. However, they obtain their calories from sunlight energy through photosynthesis.

Unfortunately, television is not a good source for accurate science instruction. Where I live (United States), the televised "Science Channel" is showing programs about crop circles and UFOs, with lots of innuendo and eerie music, and very little solid fact.

If you are interested in learning more about plant physiology, I would purchase an academic textbook on the subject. You can also read the studies published in peer-reviewed botany journals, such as these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_botany_journals
I've had plenty of plant knowledge thrown at me in school and uni, so no need for those books, I already have some The show was a documentary-type show (no aliens or big music), and it was quite clear in it that it was a new find and that they didn't completely understand it, it was not aimed to make people not eat plants or to feel sorry for plants, it was just showing finds.
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#9 Old 05-29-2017, 12:19 PM
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Maybe the title of the thread was confusing, I did not mean for it to be. I just didn't know what to name it, so I took something people sometimes say. I did not take it because I agree, I took it because I on some level act/feel like plants got lives worth cherishing as well.
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#10 Old 05-29-2017, 01:23 PM
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The good news is eating a plant based diet vastly reduces the need for plants. Think how much plant food it takes to raise an animal- as well as water, and the increase in methane. All just to meaninglessly kill it, for meals we don't need.
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#11 Old 05-29-2017, 01:43 PM
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The good news is eating a plant based diet vastly reduces the need for plants. Think how much plant food it takes to raise an animal- as well as water, and the increase in methane. All just to meaninglessly kill it, for meals we don't need.
That's true. I mainly went vegan for the environmental reasons, so I could have that in my mind as well. Less animals and plants killed if I just directly go for the plants
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#12 Old 05-29-2017, 03:04 PM
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The way plants "communicate" or protect themselves suggests something more along the lines of a greater universal intelligence than plants individually feeling pain. Even rivers "want" to follow a certain path, and they're abiotic. Please don't confuse the larger systemic order of the earth (carbon and nitrogen cycles, weather, climate, hydrologic activity, and plant defense mechanisms) with "sentience."

While there's no good reason to wantonly destroy plants for no reason (I mean, we need them for supporting larger ecosystems, food and oxygen, and so do other animals) feeling guilty about eating a non-sentient element of nature is just masochistic.

In fact there's no evidence that sessile animals (sponges, hydra) are sentient or feel pain, and for a long long time they were thought to be plants or fungi, until we understood more about genetics. And just to give you an idea of how far down this goes, life on earth is now speculated to have begun out of chemical volcanic vents on the ocean floor, which are unspeakably hot and toxic, and we literally have nothing in common with the organisms who live there, who love hellish heat, pitch black darkness, enormous crushing pressure and thrive on poisons like arsenic and sulfur instead of the sun...or its just the gate to Hell, but whatever.

ANYWAY, sentience is only found in deuterostomes, especially chordata, because of their/our brain and nervous system. However, even invertebrates like cephalopods and bees show a type of intelligence which suggests they at least feel pain.

Plants don't even have neurons. I'm glad you value all life. But it's incorrect to assume that plants feel pain as we understand it.
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#13 Old 05-29-2017, 03:23 PM
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Here is a website which claims that plants feel pain: http://www.viewzone.com/plants.html

The website claims that a botanist, Bill Williams of the Helvetica Institute, has stated that plants feel pain. Several other websites reference this claim. However, if you actually try to find the Helvetica Institute on the internet, you'll see that it doesn't even exist. The whole claim is an urban myth.

The website also claims that Michigan State University researchers found that plants feel pain. However, the names of the researchers and their study aren't named, which makes this claim very difficulty to verify. I have not found any such study anywhere on Michigan State University's websites.

The bias of the viewzone.com webpage's author becomes very clear when he says, "Vegetarians would do well to investigate this data before claiming to be superior to those of us who do not subscribe to the idea that eating meat is morally wrong.".


It's good that you continue to respect the ecological importance of plants. However, it's a bad idea for vegans to avoid eating the roots and leaves of plants, as you may be considering doing. Certain dark green leafy vegetables (kale, mustard green, collard greens, among others) are important sources of dietary calcium. Sweet potatoes (roots) are important sources of vitamin A.
.
She may be thinking of something along the lines of this:

https://www.ted.com/talks/suzanne_si..._to_each_other
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#14 Old 05-29-2017, 04:18 PM
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I just had to make this thread because I want to let the thought out somewhere, and I suppose this might be the only place where I won't be completely ridiculed, though maybe a little (since I myself also find this silly). Not sure if I picked the right place to post it, sorry if it was wrong.

I've always felt really connected to plants, almost as much as I connect to animals. I hate killing them, I treat them as if they got feelings etc. Sometimes I get slightly sad about the fact that the type of plant food I eat killed a plant that had lived and grown.
I'm not really sure what to do about these feelings. As it is now I just try to brush them off as silly, which usually works.

Can anyone relate? I don't think I would ever aim to be a fruitarian, but I understand why some might if they feel like I do.
I can relate. While it's true that there's no evidence that plants are sentient and it seems unlikely that they are (and would require some rather significant changes to science which would seem hard to swallow) that doesn't mean we can be 100% sure. Plants may have some spiritual value that science cannot yet perceive.

An interesting question is whether we would feel more upset about someone vandalizing a giant redwood tree or vandalizing a sculpture made out of rock, assuming that both were of equal beauty to the human eye and of equal size?

But also, plants do support animals and work together in an ecosystem. When we cut down trees or cut the grass, insects and bees and maybe even some animals will die as a result of habitat loss. So, indirectly, plants also have value in supporting animals.
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#15 Old 05-29-2017, 04:23 PM
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I did a thread on another forum that discussed something loosely relevant to this topic:
https://philosophicalvegan.com/viewt...hp?f=17&t=3106
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#16 Old 05-29-2017, 05:24 PM
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Thank you all for the responses, even if I feel like some of you along the way might've misunderstood me (I never said that I think plants feel pain, for example), the topic is very interesting, though. My view on plants is probably more spiritual than logical.

That link, Thalassa, does sound like what I've watched! I don't know what it was called, what I saw, but it wasn't the same, so I'll watch that ted talk later. ^.^

Thank you for the link, Jamie, I've not thought about it from that perspective, but ofc insects and other creatures also get affected for how we treat plants and trees, our gardens etc. I will probably grow own fruit, berries, herbs and vegetables once I get my own garden, and I've thought about trying to make it a nice place for bees (planting things they "like for example), but more than that I haven't thought about.

I do feel pretty upset when I see someone "attacking" a tree, I remember periods already as a child when my father would ask me to break off some of the twigs from the tree so that they wouldn't scrape the car, and I refused to do it because it was pointless and not nice (+ he could choose to just park that car somewhere else). He ended up doing that himself.
I do feel a bit closer to trees than other plants, maybe also a weird thing? Thankfully I don't feel weird around wood furniture and such, that would've been annoying to deal with.
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#17 Old 05-30-2017, 01:39 AM
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I can relate, Maara,

I hate weeding or cutting down trees or any of those things because feeling or not it is still a living thing not the same as an animal but still a living thing and I can't help feeling "bad" about taking a life. I have always said I would be a Jain Ascetic if I could but ahiṃsā would be impossible unless you lived in a temple.

I hate seeing the unnecessary destruction of any living thing but that's life. It is just the way it is.

An aside:
There was a book published on this subject in the seventies, The Secret Life of Plants. The writer had done experiments on philodendrons. He believed plants could feel even though they have no discernible nervous system.

Peace Love and vegetable rights, man.
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#18 Old 05-31-2017, 12:25 PM
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I can relate, Maara,

I hate weeding or cutting down trees or any of those things because feeling or not it is still a living thing not the same as an animal but still a living thing and I can't help feeling "bad" about taking a life. I have always said I would be a Jain Ascetic if I could but ahiṃsā would be impossible unless you lived in a temple.

I hate seeing the unnecessary destruction of any living thing but that's life. It is just the way it is.

An aside:
There was a book published on this subject in the seventies, The Secret Life of Plants. The writer had done experiments on philodendrons. He believed plants could feel even though they have no discernible nervous system.

Peace Love and vegetable rights, man.
Thank you for your answer and the book title, I think I will look it up and read it since I like that kinds of things

So I'm not completely alone then, that's nice to know!!
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#19 Old 05-31-2017, 12:34 PM
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An aside:
There was a book published on this subject in the seventies, The Secret Life of Plants. The writer had done experiments on philodendrons. He believed plants could feel even though they have no discernible nervous system.

.

A summary of this book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Plants



One of the authors, Peter Tompkins, has also written a book about communicating with elves, gnomes, and spirits: https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-06-250847-8


No comment.

.
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http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

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#20 Old 05-31-2017, 03:14 PM
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A summary of this book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Plants



One of the authors, Peter Tompkins, has also written a book about communicating with elves, gnomes, and spirits: https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-06-250847-8


No comment.

.
Haha, I didn't say that I was going to believe it :P I just find it interesting.

It is interesting to read about things someone believes in, I don't start believing in fairies because I read about it, but it's interesting that someone did.
Just like the bible, I guess, interesting to read, but not because I believe in it.
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#21 Old 05-31-2017, 08:07 PM
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Thank you for the link, Jamie, I've not thought about it from that perspective, but ofc insects and other creatures also get affected for how we treat plants and trees, our gardens etc. I will probably grow own fruit, berries, herbs and vegetables once I get my own garden, and I've thought about trying to make it a nice place for bees (planting things they "like for example), but more than that I haven't thought about.

I do feel pretty upset when I see someone "attacking" a tree, I remember periods already as a child when my father would ask me to break off some of the twigs from the tree so that they wouldn't scrape the car, and I refused to do it because it was pointless and not nice (+ he could choose to just park that car somewhere else). He ended up doing that himself.
Your own garden sounds interesting.

Now that you mention it, a year or two ago, in a previous house, a tree had grown too much and was making it difficult to drive a car through our gate and into our garden to park, and it was annoying for visitors. I did hack back the branches to make things better.
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#22 Old 05-31-2017, 08:08 PM
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How to people feel when they see someone pick a flower? It bugs me slightly and I sort of want to tell them not to....

Do people like receiving flowers as a gift, or should they be left in the ground?

I buy flowers for my wife occassionally but I am not altogether comfortable with it.
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#23 Old 05-31-2017, 10:12 PM
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A summary of this book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Plants



One of the authors, Peter Tompkins, has also written a book about communicating with elves, gnomes, and spirits: https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-06-250847-8


No comment.

.

That doesn't surprise me at all. (elves etc)

Have you ever seen the English comedy The Young Ones ?

The character Neil (a hippie) is a vegetarian but is also always saying "vegetable rights" or "vegetables have rights too"

So - Peace love and vegetable rights, man. Was meant to indicate My opinion of the book. Also why I said it was an aside.

Sorry if it was a bit esoteric.

Should have put a wink next to it.

I ment the other stuff about not liking to kill anything even plants. My "garden" is a jungle.
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#24 Old 05-31-2017, 11:40 PM
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I think the point is that if you feel sad doing something that you have to do to stay alive, you need a way to overcome the feeling, or be doomed to a life of sadness. Sadness is useful only if it helps us become better people by treating others better, not if it traps us as long as we live. Seriously, if people needed to eat animals to stay alive, veganism wouldn’t be a thing. There would be no compelling argument in its favor if veganism was a sure path to species (our species) extinction. Veganism is possible only because living in good health without using animal products is possible. If a depressed person stops eating foods that require plant death, that person might start obsessing over cell death and seed death in the fruits they ate instead. As someone who makes juice out of fruits and vegetables nearly every day, I can almost guarantee that living off fruits (and supplements?) exclusively would land you in the hospital with crippling diarrhea. People have been known to subsist on Romaine lettuce and figs, but that Romaine’s gotta die. That’s the thing about depression: It will find a way to keep eating at a person no matter what the person does to keep it at bay. At least until the root cause of the depression is addressed.

Deciding that a persistent feeling doesn't come from a rational place might be helpful for getting over that one thing, but nobody likes being tagged as irrational. So that’s a problem. It's a little bit possible that somewhere along the line you got the idea that feeling bad for plants makes you a better person, that you would become a coarser, desensitized person if you were able to leave that feeling behind. But whether plants have feelings just depends on how you define feelings, right? Is a knee-jerk reaction a feeling, or just an automatic reaction?

A plant that has an insect chewing holes in its leaves will sometimes emit chemicals that are borne on the wind, to other plants of its kind, which in turn stimulates the others to produce a toxin to repel or kill an insect that chews on their leaves. It’s all kind of impressive and automatic at the same time. It doesn't choose whether to or not, it just does it if it has the capacity to. That’s the kind of thing that some people choose to point at and label “feelings.” Usually it’s brought up to neutralize the idea that eating animals is a crappy, crappy deal for the animals involved. The thing about those cows and pigs and sheep and chickens: we know they experience fear and pain, there’s no guesswork in that conclusion because those are the emotions they exhibit when stressed. But choosing to call what a plant does evidence of feelings, that just muddies the waters of understanding. There’s no “Ow! Ow! Ow!” moment in any of that, no “We’re all gonna die!” terror. They don’t have what it takes to experience pain or terror. As David said, there would be no point for them to have any of that. They do what they do for species survival because of the way they developed over time, the way we sneeze when we take in particulates through the nose, or cough when we take in particulates through the mouth. If we're special sentient sapient beings, it isn't because we sneeze and cough.
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#25 Old 06-03-2017, 05:02 AM
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As I said, the title wasn't to reflect the content really, I didn't know what to write. I don't think plants have feelings that can ever be compared to what animals feel, they're different.
I "give" them feelings by just considering them as alive and feeling compassion, doesn't mean that I think they actually care or feel anything, it's just me feeling that they deserve to be alive.

Thank you all for answering in this thread. I don't feel that I need to overcome these emotions I have towards plants, they don't stop me from eating the plants and they don't make me weep or feel depressed. It's just a slight feeling of wasting a life, I wish they all were like trees, where you can take the fruit without damaging the tree, but they're not. It's not a crippling emotion at all.
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#26 Old 06-03-2017, 11:10 PM
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I think the point is that if you feel sad doing something that you have to do to stay alive, you need a way to overcome the feeling, or be doomed to a life of sadness. Sadness is useful only if it helps us become better people by treating others better, not if it traps us as long as we live. Seriously, if people needed to eat animals to stay alive, veganism wouldn’t be a thing. There would be no compelling argument in its favor if veganism was a sure path to species (our species) extinction. Veganism is possible only because living in good health without using animal products is possible. If a depressed person stops eating foods that require plant death, that person might start obsessing over cell death and seed death in the fruits they ate instead. As someone who makes juice out of fruits and vegetables nearly every day, I can almost guarantee that living off fruits (and supplements?) exclusively would land you in the hospital with crippling diarrhea. People have been known to subsist on Romaine lettuce and figs, but that Romaine’s gotta die. That’s the thing about depression: It will find a way to keep eating at a person no matter what the person does to keep it at bay. At least until the root cause of the depression is addressed.

Deciding that a persistent feeling doesn't come from a rational place might be helpful for getting over that one thing, but nobody likes being tagged as irrational. So that’s a problem. It's a little bit possible that somewhere along the line you got the idea that feeling bad for plants makes you a better person, that you would become a coarser, desensitized person if you were able to leave that feeling behind. But whether plants have feelings just depends on how you define feelings, right? Is a knee-jerk reaction a feeling, or just an automatic reaction?

A plant that has an insect chewing holes in its leaves will sometimes emit chemicals that are borne on the wind, to other plants of its kind, which in turn stimulates the others to produce a toxin to repel or kill an insect that chews on their leaves. It’s all kind of impressive and automatic at the same time. It doesn't choose whether to or not, it just does it if it has the capacity to. That’s the kind of thing that some people choose to point at and label “feelings.” Usually it’s brought up to neutralize the idea that eating animals is a crappy, crappy deal for the animals involved. The thing about those cows and pigs and sheep and chickens: we know they experience fear and pain, there’s no guesswork in that conclusion because those are the emotions they exhibit when stressed. But choosing to call what a plant does evidence of feelings, that just muddies the waters of understanding. There’s no “Ow! Ow! Ow!” moment in any of that, no “We’re all gonna die!” terror. They don’t have what it takes to experience pain or terror. As David said, there would be no point for them to have any of that. They do what they do for species survival because of the way they developed over time, the way we sneeze when we take in particulates through the nose, or cough when we take in particulates through the mouth. If we're special sentient sapient beings, it isn't because we sneeze and cough.

Not unnecessarily hurting plants has nothing to do with whether they have feelings the same as ours, it is about them being alive not about them feeling pain. Pruning, deadheading, controlled grazing etc is actually good for plants. Pulling them out by the roots isn't.

Of course you can live without killing plants other wise there would be no Jains in the world because they would all have stared to death a looong time ago. Veganism and vegetarianism have been around for a long time we just have more choice in what we eat in modern times.

There are many,many foods that can be harvested from plants without killing the plant. I have never known an apple tree to I grew beans on the same lot of plants for nearly a year once and then let the plants die naturally, (this was before the possums discovered I was growing things) the same can be done with a whole lot of plants and vegetables. I grew lettuce for ages too and just took what I needed until the plant went to seed and died. You would just have to give up root vegetables because pulling them up - especially with mechanised farming - kills many small creatures.

Should vegans eat root vegetables considering how many deaths are caused during the farming and harvesting or does it just not matter because "they don't feel pain" or is it because they are just not cute enough to matter ? We don't eat honey because bees are harmed during bee farming.

As you seem to think that anyone who cares about (caring about is not the same as feeling guilty about) the environment and the vegetable life in it must be mentally ill,depressed , guilt ridden, obsesive maybe you should tell me which university you got your medical degree from and where you qualified to practice psychiatry.


David3

I don't see how anyone can prove whether or not a life form so different from ours as plants can feel. I don't think that plants can feel but I certainly can't prove it. One wouldn't even know where to start looking for a nervous system in a plant it is just completely alien to us physically.

Remember when crabs couldn't feel, when lobsters couldn't feel (just through them into the boiling water alive), when animals that were experimented on didn't have emotions and only had a rudimentary sense of pain, so don't worry about it ?

If bacteria can learn, and it has recently been proved that some can ( I will ask my husband if he can remember where he read about the research ) how can you be so sure about what plants can and can't do.

I am not criticing veganism. I think it is the only right way too live.

However caring about plant LIFE does not mean that the one is depressed or guilt ridden. It just means they care.
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"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men." - Leonardo Da Vinci, Italian Painter, Sculptor, Architect, Musician, Engineer, and Scientist

When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. ~Ingrid Newkirk
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#27 Old 06-04-2017, 07:22 AM
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David3

I don't see how anyone can prove whether or not a life form so different from ours as plants can feel. I don't think that plants can feel but I certainly can't prove it. One wouldn't even know where to start looking for a nervous system in a plant it is just completely alien to us physically.

Remember when crabs couldn't feel, when lobsters couldn't feel (just through them into the boiling water alive), when animals that were experimented on didn't have emotions and only had a rudimentary sense of pain, so don't worry about it ?

If bacteria can learn, and it has recently been proved that some can ( I will ask my husband if he can remember where he read about the research ) how can you be so sure about what plants can and can't do.

I am not criticing veganism. I think it is the only right way too live.

However caring about plant LIFE does not mean that the one is depressed or guilt ridden. It just means they care.

Very good points. I'm not trying to be callous on the topic. I'm just encouraging people to stay rational. When the thread turned towards "The Secret Life of Plants" book, things were becoming way too New Age.
.
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_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/
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#28 Old 06-04-2017, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueMts View Post
Of course you can live without killing plants other wise there would be no Jains in the world because they would all have stared to death a looong time ago. Veganism and vegetarianism have been around for a long time we just have more choice in what we eat in modern times.

There are many,many foods that can be harvested from plants without killing the plant. I have never known an apple tree to I grew beans on the same lot of plants for nearly a year once and then let the plants die naturally, (this was before the possums discovered I was growing things) the same can be done with a whole lot of plants and vegetables. I grew lettuce for ages too and just took what I needed until the plant went to seed and died. You would just have to give up root vegetables because pulling them up - especially with mechanised farming - kills many small creatures.

Should vegans eat root vegetables considering how many deaths are caused during the farming and harvesting or does it just not matter because "they don't feel pain" or is it because they are just not cute enough to matter ? We don't eat honey because bees are harmed during bee farming.

As you seem to think that anyone who cares about (caring about is not the same as feeling guilty about) the environment and the vegetable life in it must be mentally ill,depressed , guilt ridden, obsesive maybe you should tell me which university you got your medical degree from and where you qualified to practice psychiatry.
Depression is a common human condition. Most people have either experienced it for themselves or lived with its effects in a close family member. I responded to a thread called “Plants have feelings” from Maara, who said she hates killing plants, is sad to be responsible for their deaths, and doesn't know what to do with her feelings about this. I responded with reasons why prevailing evidence is that plants do not suffer or feel, as we define suffering and feelings. And wrote about the futility of letting one’s mind go to sadness over something they have little choice but to participate in. Jains might not eat root vegetables but they do eat other foods from plants that die in the harvesting. Grains, industry-grown leafy greens, industry-grown beans are all legitimate Jain fare.

I have no idea whether you, Maara, or any other specific individual here suffers from depression unless they've said so, but odds are that at least some of the people reading this thread do. Not because of the subject matter, and not because of anything they’ve written here, but because of the prevalence of this ailment in our culture. You can voice an opinion about the design of a bridge without an engineering degree, about slaughterhouse conditions without working in one, and about police shootings of unarmed civilians without ever having served on a police force. So I'm not sure where the snark is coming from. The funny part of it is that whenever a bona fide board-certified psychiatrist ever does speak up to tag a public figure with a mental illness, that psychiatrist gets reamed for diagnosing someone they’ve never examined. Which is ironic as well, because if they ever had examined that person, they’d be barred from comment on the grounds of doctor/patient confidentiality.
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Last edited by Joan Kennedy; 06-04-2017 at 02:24 PM.
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#29 Old 06-04-2017, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by David3 View Post
Very good points. I'm not trying to be callous on the topic. I'm just encouraging people to stay rational. When the thread turned towards "The Secret Life of Plants" book, things were becoming way too New Age.
.
https://www.newscientist.com/article...n-you-thought/

He just said that that link may not be the right one but it is interesting anyway gives you an idea what the other was like. Same source. you might like to search for it if interested
Off topic but I said I would ask him where he read it.

You sometimes do come across as callous but then who doesn't.

Bye

"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men." - Leonardo Da Vinci, Italian Painter, Sculptor, Architect, Musician, Engineer, and Scientist

When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. ~Ingrid Newkirk

Last edited by BlueMts; 06-04-2017 at 10:38 PM. Reason: to add info.
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#30 Old 06-05-2017, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by David3 View Post
It's good that you feel close to plants, but no peer-reviewed biology or botany studies have shown that plants feel pain (although plenty of popular websites - especially pro-meat websites - claim otherwise).

Pain is only a useful response if an organism has the ability to reduce that pain (that is, prevent or avoid an injury that causes pain). Plants are immobile, so there is no evolutionary advantage for them to develop neural systems for pain.
.
Sometimes when I read your posts, it feels like I'm reading a professional scientific study, haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David3 View Post
And, for gods sake, please do not believe any of the "breatharian" websites claiming that people can live without consuming physical food. Those frauds should be imprisoned. I have personally met people who have tried breatharianism - all of them returned to consuming food, of course.
.
Wait, what? I thought breatharianism was a joke. The reason I never tried it though is because of these pesky little side effects known as death, and even worse, deficiencies (my priorities are great).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
She may be thinking of something along the lines of this:

https://www.ted.com/talks/suzanne_si..._to_each_other
There's something similar. He convinced me to live off of dirt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David3 View Post
One of the authors, Peter Tompkins, has also written a book about communicating with elves, gnomes, and spirits: https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-06-250847-8
B-but I'm an elf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maara View Post
I do feel pretty upset when I see someone "attacking" a tree, I remember periods already as a child when my father would ask me to break off some of the twigs from the tree so that they wouldn't scrape the car, and I refused to do it because it was pointless and not nice (+ he could choose to just park that car somewhere else). He ended up doing that himself. I do feel a bit closer to trees than other plants, maybe also a weird thing? Thankfully I don't feel weird around wood furniture and such, that would've been annoying to deal with.
I have siblings. I remember when I was really young, a tree was leaning towards our house, and would probably have fallen on it. My parents hired people to cut it down. My siblings and I didn't like it, so we dug a hole around the tree hoping the lumberjacks would fall in it and not be able to cut down the tree. It wasn't for the same reasons you are saying though; we were kids haha.
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