How not to JUDGE meat eaters? - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
 19Likes
  • 4 Post By Knowtions In Motion
  • 2 Post By BlueMts
  • 2 Post By acephale
  • 1 Post By BlueMts
  • 1 Post By Symondezyn
  • 2 Post By Poppy
  • 2 Post By David3
  • 1 Post By Thalassa
  • 1 Post By Joan Kennedy
  • 1 Post By leedsveg
  • 2 Post By Joan Kennedy
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 05-28-2017, 10:32 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 16
How not to JUDGE meat eaters?

So ever since I became a vegan, everytime I am in public, at a grocery store, shopping mall, even where I work, I started to see people as indecent human beings because I know most of the population is a meat eater. I try to stop myself from thinking that way and try to understand that maybe they are just unaware but then I start blaming and ask why can't these people take the initiative to get educated. But I say to myself that I am not perfect either. My question for you all, how do you train your mind not to judge people who are supporting the holocaust of sentient beings?
RealisticOptimist is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 05-28-2017, 10:59 AM
Vegan, Mostly WFPB
 
Knowtions In Motion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: In My Heart
Posts: 276
I get back in touch with the part of me that also used to be them. The one who was raised from birth then also later educated in higher institutions of learning that animal products were not only okay, but a very expected requirement to survive.

Then I remember how angry I used to feel when vegan consumers would aggressively try to tell me how wrong I was while I was trying to wrestle with the inner guilt I felt as they presented me with so many facts I could no longer ignore, although I made it a point to ignore it in their presence more often than not hoping they'd back off. Impressions were made and I began to pay more attention.

Then I remember the only reason I made the drastic change overnight when I did was because I was catapulted into it via a medical emergency leaving me little choice if I wished to improve the quality of my life. It was at that point I finally started paying even more attention to the quality of life for the beings that I used to consume, and then it hit me like a ton of bricks and my heart, nor my digestive system, will ever knowingly allow animal products into or on my body again.

I had to make the connection within on my own. I wouldn't suggest waiting for an ER visit to do so, but am grateful it finally helped me. No one can make a conscious connection for another, but we can kindly and compassionately plant seeds along the way all the while continuing to be a good example in our actions, not an angry defensive one.

"Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught falsehoods in school. And the person that dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and a fool." ~Plato
Knowtions In Motion is offline  
#3 Old 05-29-2017, 07:03 AM
person
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: gone
Posts: 679
Quote:
Originally Posted by RealisticOptimist View Post
So ever since I became a vegan, everytime I am in public, at a grocery store, shopping mall, even where I work, I started to see people as indecent human beings because I know most of the population is a meat eater. I try to stop myself from thinking that way and try to understand that maybe they are just unaware but then I start blaming and ask why can't these people take the initiative to get educated. But I say to myself that I am not perfect either. My question for you all, how do you train your mind not to judge people who are supporting the holocaust of sentient beings?
I can't. I think some very unfriendly, unpleasant things about meat eaters animal farmers and people who kill insects and spiders (unless they are actually deadly) even after all these years. I'm sick to death of Kill Kill Kill.

I've just learned to keep my mouth shut (mostly). Try never to preach and only talk about it to people I know are not unreceptive
Thalassa and Gen2394 like this.

"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men." - Leonardo Da Vinci, Italian Painter, Sculptor, Architect, Musician, Engineer, and Scientist

When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. ~Ingrid Newkirk
BlueMts is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 05-29-2017, 04:42 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by RealisticOptimist View Post
My question for you all, how do you train your mind not to judge people who are supporting the holocaust of sentient beings?
Consider the following excerpt from Yuval N. Harari's Homo Deus:

"He [professor Leif Andersson from the University of Uppsala] specializes in the genetic enhancement of farm animals, in order to create faster-growing pigs, dairy cows that produce more milk, and chickens with extra meat on their bones. In an interview for the newspaper Haaretz, reporter Naomi Darom confronted Andersson with the fact that such genetic manipulations might cause much suffering to the animals. Already today 'enhanced' dairy cows have such heavy udders that they can barely walk, while 'upgraded' chickens cannot even stand up. Professor Andersson had a firm answer: 'Everything comes back to the individual customer and to the question how much the customer is willing to pay for meat . . . we must remember that it would be impossible to maintain current levels of global meat consumption without the [enhanced] modern chicken . . . if customers ask us only for the cheapest meat possible--that's what the customers will get. . . . Customers need to decide what is most important to them--price, or something else.'"

In short, as long as we remain unable to value animal life as other than ambulatory protein, we'll be stuck in that very same consumerist nightmare. It may work fine for the ignorant and the disaffected, but we who know better shouldn't settle for less. Changing course will ultimately require the imposition of legislation, which takes leadership and vision--and the courage to challenge mainstream opinion.

Therefore, be sure to stay on course when facing people who support the status quo.
Thalassa and BlueMts like this.
acephale is offline  
#5 Old 05-31-2017, 12:31 AM
person
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: gone
Posts: 679
Quote:
Originally Posted by acephale View Post
Consider the following excerpt from Yuval N. Harari's Homo Deus:

"He [professor Leif Andersson from the University of Uppsala] specializes in the genetic enhancement of farm animals, in order to create faster-growing pigs, dairy cows that produce more milk, and chickens with extra meat on their bones. In an interview for the newspaper Haaretz, reporter Naomi Darom confronted Andersson with the fact that such genetic manipulations might cause much suffering to the animals. Already today 'enhanced' dairy cows have such heavy udders that they can barely walk, while 'upgraded' chickens cannot even stand up. Professor Andersson had a firm answer: 'Everything comes back to the individual customer and to the question how much the customer is willing to pay for meat . . . we must remember that it would be impossible to maintain current levels of global meat consumption without the [enhanced] modern chicken . . . if customers ask us only for the cheapest meat possible--that's what the customers will get. . . . Customers need to decide what is most important to them--price, or something else.'"

In short, as long as we remain unable to value animal life as other than ambulatory protein, we'll be stuck in that very same consumerist nightmare. It may work fine for the ignorant and the disaffected, but we who know better shouldn't settle for less. Changing course will ultimately require the imposition of legislation, which takes leadership and vision--and the courage to challenge mainstream opinion.

Therefore, be sure to stay on course when facing people who support the status quo.

If they bring it up in an unfriendly manner or a one eyed meat, meat, meat manner I am happy to have a piece of them and tell them what I think. I just think gently gently is the way to convert open minded people.
Thalassa likes this.

"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men." - Leonardo Da Vinci, Italian Painter, Sculptor, Architect, Musician, Engineer, and Scientist

When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. ~Ingrid Newkirk
BlueMts is offline  
#6 Old 05-31-2017, 11:04 AM
Plant Powered
 
Symondezyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 439
Because I came to veganism through the practice of ahimsa, for me it helps to think of (coming to veg*ism) as a stage of enlightenment. Not everyone reaches the same stage, and if they do, not everyone comes to it the same way or at the same time. I don't mean to say that if you aren't veg*n you aren't enlightened - simply that everyone's story is different, as are their pathways in life. It isn't fair to judge another person, particularly if at one point, you were at the stage they are currently at ^_^ Practice compassion for your fellow humans, as they are animals too
Symondezyn is offline  
#7 Old 06-02-2017, 12:01 PM
Newbie
 
ForestFaery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 12
I also sympathize with meat-eaters a bit when it comes to veganism; With how so many vegans approach them, fingers pointing, blame getting tossed around, I doubt that makes anyone want to switch. If anything it makes them angry.
In fact, such vegans were one of main reasons I personally disliked and almost hated the thought of veganism initially( Other reasons being I grew up eating meat, so at the time I didn't see the issue). Why am I getting blamed for something I didn't do personally or even know about? Why are they talking down to people? Of course, I know now that all vegans aren't like that but they are still off-putting and are usually the loudest ones advocating.
But that's besides the point, to answer your question: I just view it as a choice. They have the choice of researching veganism just as we did and if they don't, its fine. It's their choice, it's their life. Blaming people and writing them off as horrible people is never the way to go.
ForestFaery is offline  
#8 Old 06-03-2017, 05:25 PM
Ankle Biter
 
Poppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Central Virginia, USA
Posts: 9,332
Since the vast majority of members on this forum ate meat at one time, and since a large proportion of them will likely eat meat in the future (our recidivism rate is shockingly high), it's best not to get too self-richeous about those around us who eat meat. The best approach, imho, is to make veg*nism look easy, delicious and healthy - because it is!
Purp and oldmanveggie like this.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
Poppy is offline  
#9 Old 06-03-2017, 07:31 PM
Bandit
 
Thalassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 544
I think it's a normal response, to be perfectly honest. Other aspects of my life, from distancing myself from corporate America and neoconservatives, racists, and gay bashers I grew up around in the South elicited the same feeling in me. So has being aware of the reality of global warming and taking my part in responsibility for it. Also, I tried to be tolerant or "meet in the middle" with alt right types back in the day only to be dismayed at what pieces of **** most of them in reality.

The Biblical verse "do not judge lest ye be judged" does NOT mean lack judgment or discernment, it means don't be a hypocrite and hold others to a higher standard than you hold your self.

So honestly I think it's perfectly normal identity and ethics forming.

However, I tend to classify meat eaters by "levels" from the simply ignorant but empathetic, all the way down to bacon trolls, and treat each level differently. I return the respect given by meat eating associates who remember I'm vegan and eat vegan meals or snacks with me, while being extremely rude to bacon trolls, and shades of gray in between.

I also try to consider "strategy" ...for example some vegans condemn shock tactics, but they're unrealistic about how often shock tactics do work on certain kinds of people. Everyone isn't nice. Everyone isn't ignorant. Some people really are dead alive, or are *******s.

So accept your feelings but try to ruminate over the span of reactions you actually are having to different types of people in your life. You may even need to isolate yourself for a while to establish your own identity firmly before trying to interact meaningfully with meat eaters.

"Thinkers may prepare revolutions, but bandits must carry them out"~
Ingrid Newkirk
Thalassa is offline  
#10 Old 06-03-2017, 08:08 PM
Bandit
 
Thalassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by acephale View Post
Consider the following excerpt from Yuval N. Harari's Homo Deus:

"He [professor Leif Andersson from the University of Uppsala] specializes in the genetic enhancement of farm animals, in order to create faster-growing pigs, dairy cows that produce more milk, and chickens with extra meat on their bones. In an interview for the newspaper Haaretz, reporter Naomi Darom confronted Andersson with the fact that such genetic manipulations might cause much suffering to the animals. Already today 'enhanced' dairy cows have such heavy udders that they can barely walk, while 'upgraded' chickens cannot even stand up. Professor Andersson had a firm answer: 'Everything comes back to the individual customer and to the question how much the customer is willing to pay for meat . . . we must remember that it would be impossible to maintain current levels of global meat consumption without the [enhanced] modern chicken . . . if customers ask us only for the cheapest meat possible--that's what the customers will get. . . . Customers need to decide what is most important to them--price, or something else.'"

In short, as long as we remain unable to value animal life as other than ambulatory protein, we'll be stuck in that very same consumerist nightmare. It may work fine for the ignorant and the disaffected, but we who know better shouldn't settle for less. Changing course will ultimately require the imposition of legislation, which takes leadership and vision--and the courage to challenge mainstream opinion.

Therefore, be sure to stay on course when facing people who support the status quo.

Yeah I mean, I can't imagine a civil rights activist being like "oh slave owners really are doing their best and while slave owning isn't right for me, it's ok for them to do it since they're not enlightened. " Or a feminist being like "well, since X culture thinks it's OK to mutilate the clitorises of baby girls, I should not force my views on them."

I appreciate nice, kind, naive and idealistic vegans - because they clearly presume everyone is secretly as nice as they are or would be if only educated - but as a realist and an intellectual I know it's a load of horse****. Culturally speaking we are living in a bizarre nihilistic limbo, and that nihilistic limbo allowed a sociopathic madman to be the US President ...Americans are largely lazy and entitled people and we should behave accordingly.

I of course am polite and respectful to respectful, curious or anxious meat eaters, but I do not operate under the assumption that if I only act like a martyr, everyone on earth will eventually join me. We don't have time for that.

"Thinkers may prepare revolutions, but bandits must carry them out"~
Ingrid Newkirk
Thalassa is offline  
#11 Old 06-04-2017, 09:49 AM
Vegan since 1991
 
David3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by RealisticOptimist View Post
So ever since I became a vegan, everytime I am in public, at a grocery store, shopping mall, even where I work, I started to see people as indecent human beings because I know most of the population is a meat eater. I try to stop myself from thinking that way and try to understand that maybe they are just unaware but then I start blaming and ask why can't these people take the initiative to get educated. But I say to myself that I am not perfect either. My question for you all, how do you train your mind not to judge people who are supporting the holocaust of sentient beings?

Prior to becoming vegan, you ate meat, didn't you? Were you an evil monster? No.
.
Purp and Spudulika like this.

_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/
David3 is offline  
#12 Old 06-04-2017, 10:24 PM
Beginner
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Being surrounded by meat eaters at work and pretty much everywhere else I go, I really don't judge them any differently than I did before.

It's not my place to start preaching to my co-workers about how much they are contributing to the suffering of animals (even though they are). Some are curious as to why I have switched to veganism, but none have treated me with any sort of disrespect because of it. Shouldn't I extend the same courtesy?

It is up to each individual to take all the available information and make their own choices, good or bad.

My original decision to go vegan overnight had nothing to do with concern for animal welfare. But now after doing more research, I realize how much animals and the environment suffer because of the widespread consumption of meat and dairy products. So I suppose it was an added benefit to know that I am doing my part.
oldmanveggie is offline  
#13 Old 06-09-2017, 01:04 AM
Bandit
 
Thalassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 544
Question

Let's put this another way, with a concrete example:

Recently Alicia Silverstone did an interview with People magazine. She calls feeding her son a vegan diet a "no brainer." She talks about how non-judgmental she is. She uses words like "duh" even though she's 40 years old. She says if people don't like her information it's "all love and peace."



I think she sounds like a complete moron, and surely many meat eaters feel the same. This is where the stereotype of the flaky, airheaded vegan comes from, whom omnis don't take seriously.

You may disagree but I'm pointing this out to show you that the "non judgmental" approach doesn't necessarily win more people over. It's really a different approach to a completely different type of person.

I thought Alicia Silverstone seemed weak, insecure, unsure of herself, and maybe not even fully informed, so I can't imagine how a beligerent omni feels....likely making jokes at her expense, and equating all vegans with immature-acting Hollywood moms, who can't even clean their own house and never went to college.

Admittedly, it really doesn't help that she used to chew up food, and feed it to her son from her mouth, and felt compelled to share it with the world. It makes her seem like an LSD casualty, or a cult member...you know, as in the vegan cult?

I don't have a lot of respect for Gwenyth Paltrow either. I don't like famous women who make vegan women seem like vain, self absorbed idiots.

This is the extreme of "non judgmental" of course, but it backfires too. I was at NARD the other day and cringing at the yuppie white woman scolding people about being "angry vegans."

Even when I'm on Twitter, and people are artificially positive about anything, not just veganism, I suspect they're trying to sell me something, presume they're a shallow empty person or that something is amiss, like they're not confident in their opinions.

I respect confident, informed people.

A lot (A LOT) of meat eaters are authoritarian, and they definitely only respond to confident leaders, even strictness.

There is no one way to vegan. It's fine to be loving and care about others, but being non-judgmental in general is not an end unto itself. It's not the highest or only virtue.
BlueMts likes this.

"Thinkers may prepare revolutions, but bandits must carry them out"~
Ingrid Newkirk

Last edited by Thalassa; 06-09-2017 at 02:15 AM. Reason: Clarity
Thalassa is offline  
#14 Old 06-10-2017, 02:13 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Joan Kennedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Lovettsville, VA and Portland, OR
Posts: 1,982
Alicia Silverstone might talk juvenile for her age, but she is not young for her brand. People still identify her with her younger screen roles, especially people who are seeing films like Clueless for the first time now, and she's usually specialized in playing ditzy blondes. She is a working actor. Seeming younger than you are keeps you eligible for playing parts younger than your calendar age. I wouldn't conflate talking young for your age with being nonjudgmental toward meat-eaters. Those are two different things, sometimes occurring in the same person, but not necessarily connected. It's like someone might be a Christian Scientist and also a Democrat. If you have issues with the Democratic Party, one of those issues shouldn't be Christian Science. Criticizing one facet of a person is not usually a valid argument against a different and unrelated facet.

I think when vegetarians or vegans judge meat eaters, they think meat eaters are being consciously selfish. I agree with Dave and Nowtions that a good countermeasure is to remember what we were like when we used to eat meat. My attitude was never "I know I really shouldn't, but I love the taste and I can't help it." I didn't have an attitude about meat eating, it was just something I did, like wearing clothes, earning a living, and paying taxes. If you had asked me about vegetarians back then, I would've replied that I had taken a couple of stabs at it a couple of times, but gave it up when my hair started falling out. When I thought about meat at all, I associated it with quality protein and good health. What it did not feel like was indulging a vice or abetting cruelty or accelerating climate change. It's not that people disregard acknowledged truths about meat, it's usually that meat is pretty much not on their radar. And the eating of it is usually reinforced by everyone around them. They're the normal ones, we're the outliers.

Not exploiting animals is one aspect of ethical living; it's not everything. Many people who do eat meat are conscientious about things that are not on my radar. They might wonder why I keep a car, don't donate more money to causes I believe in, don't donate blood more often, am not more politically active. Maybe they are judging me for those things, but I believe if they are good people they don't. People who judge are usually judgmental, and judgmental people are obnoxious. People become concerned about different issues in different order and on different timetables for different reasons. And none of us do everything we possibly can about every issue we hear about. We prioritize the ones that resonate most strongly with us personally.
silva likes this.

Last edited by Joan Kennedy; 06-10-2017 at 02:47 PM.
Joan Kennedy is offline  
#15 Old 06-10-2017, 03:46 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joan Kennedy View Post
Not exploiting animals is one aspect of ethical living; it's not everything. Many people who do eat meat are conscientious about things that are not on my radar. They might wonder why I keep a car, don't donate more money to causes I believe in, don't donate blood more often, am not more politically active. Maybe they are judging me for those things, but I believe if they are good people they don't. People who judge are usually judgmental, and judgmental people are obnoxious. People become concerned about different issues in different order and on different timetables for different reasons. And none of us do everything we possibly can about every issue we hear about. We prioritize the ones that resonate most strongly with us personally.
Brilliant! Many thanks for putting this point so clearly and succinctly JK. I'll use this the next time a vegan says for example that "all omnis are as bad as, if not worse than, Hitler" etc.

Lv
Purp likes this.

Last edited by leedsveg; 06-11-2017 at 02:30 AM.
leedsveg is offline  
#16 Old 06-10-2017, 09:42 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Joan Kennedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Lovettsville, VA and Portland, OR
Posts: 1,982
Thank you for that, Ian. Coming from you that means a lot.
Purp and leedsveg like this.
Joan Kennedy is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off