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#31 Old 12-18-2016, 11:17 AM
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Junk food is very much an issue of ethics.
Veg*nism is only one component of a mature ethical system.
Harming yourself is unethical, harming your children is unethical, poisoning your genes when still of child bearing age is unethical, all the increased industrial pollution consequent to junk food production and transport is unethical, and imposing the burden of avoidable disease and disability on society is unethical.
I'm 10% disabled because my mother was raised as a crapatarian. It caused physical and epigenetic changes in her that manifested in her children, each one being worse off than the last and I was #3. Its no mystery why childhood disorders essentially unknown in nearly vegan virtually whole food societies are plagues of the western world. Junk food doesnt just cause atherosclerosis, strokes, and heart attacks it poisons the gene pool for generations and thats unethical.
Veg*nism isnt the beginning and end of ethics. My ethics list is something like this...
Ethics:
--- Stuff
--- Other stuff
--- Veganism
--- More stuff
--- Odds and ends
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#32 Old 12-18-2016, 11:29 AM
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Junk food is very much an issue of ethics.
Veg*nism is only one component of a mature ethical system.
Harming yourself is unethical, harming your children is unethical, poisoning your genes when still of child bearing age is unethical, all the increased industrial pollution consequent to junk food production and transport is unethical, and imposing the burden of avoidable disease and disability on society is unethical.


As I've said, I don't believe any of this. "Whole plant food" veganism is mostly a fad, with no health benefits that I'm aware of. Eating what you call "junk food" generally does not harm one's body, that I'm aware of.

For example, this morning I ate half a can of refried beans, and a bagel with vegan cream cheese, for breakfast. I'm going to eat oatmeal with soy milk, blueberries, and an artificial sweetener for lunch. For dinner, I'm going to eat angel hair pasta with marinara sauce and Gardein Meatless Meatballs simmered in veggie broth with a side of salad in vinagrette dressing.

Notice that, first, everything mentioned above is vegan and, second, it all tastes good (no bland quinoa and kale) and, third, there is some "processed" food among other "whole plant foods." The "processed" food is the vegan cream cheese (on the bagel), the artificial sweetener (in the oatmeal) and the meatless meatballs (with the pasta and marinara). The meatballs, by the way, are composed of mostly natural ingredients, but the bulk of their composition is of soy protein concentrate and wheat gluten. No problem with any of that stuff, and with six meatballs, that's 30 grams protein, on top of the rest of the protein from the meal, so a nice protein boost. Plus, they taste delicious.

I don't consider any of this to be "junk food." It's a very healthy breakfast, lunch, and dinner, as far as I'm concerned. The dinner in particular is a Mediterranean diet type of meal, and that should promote longevity. Moreover, the soy milk (from lunch) and soy protein concentrate (from the meatballs) has plenty of phytonutrients.

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#33 Old 12-18-2016, 04:45 PM
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I think it's fair to say that there are some ethical issues attached to junk food, though, whether it's on the production side, or giving bad health to your children. I'm sorry about your experiences auxin.
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#34 Old 12-18-2016, 04:48 PM
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"Whole plant food" veganism is mostly a fad, with no health benefits that I'm aware of. Eating what you call "junk food" generally does not harm one's body, that I'm aware of.
I don't agree with this, although mostly a gut feeling, I don't have the data to back this up. I guess it depends on exactly what type of junk food, and how much of it, however.

Saying that there are no health benefits of eating 100% whole plant foods vs 80% and 20% junk/processed might likely be true, but 100% plant food I suspect is better than 100% junk/processed.

There is some specific reasoning behind that in that specific parts of specific plants like whole grains and phytochemicals are lost in processing. Not trying to lecture you here as it sounds like you know as much or more as I do and probably know this already, but just contributing to the thread in general.
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#35 Old 12-19-2016, 04:29 AM
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Saying that there are no health benefits of eating 100% whole plant foods vs 80% and 20% junk/processed might likely be true, but 100% plant food I suspect is better than 100% junk/processed.
Hi JiC. I suspect that VB may have had as many, if not more, posters suffering from the illness orthorexia, than posters suffering the bad effects of a 100% junk/processed diet. I do try to eat a reasonably balanced, nutritious total plant food diet (which includes an element of processed food) but I'd like to bet that despite this, and as with meat chomping omnis, I'm gonna die at some time in the future. It's so unfair!

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#36 Old 12-19-2016, 08:27 AM
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I think it's fair to say that there are some ethical issues attached to junk food, though, whether it's on the production side, or giving bad health to your children. I'm sorry about your experiences auxin.
So people with bad health shouldn't have children? Even if their illness or disability is there through no action of their own?

This is indeed a big ethics question, and a scary one too. It reminds me of eugenics.

I am a disabled person and I don't want children, but I do feel I should have the choice if I wanted to. Just how far does ''bad health'' go? Is being overweight enough to ban people from having children etc? I think you're making quite the statement here.

Junk food, when eaten in moderation, is nothing to worry about as long as it doesn't harm anyone but yourself. You have a right to your body and no one else has a right to tell you what to do with it.

Harming others like animals and children IS a problem, but the latter definitely should be about actively harming children while conciously aware and not for example about a genetic risk for a disability.
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#37 Old 12-19-2016, 08:43 AM
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I think there are ethical issues with people feeding their children a junk food diet, and the mainstream culture promoting it e.g. junk foods being advertised on TV and available everywhere.

I never said anything about people not having children, you've twisted my words or misinterpreted what I've said.
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#38 Old 12-19-2016, 10:03 AM
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So people with bad health shouldn't have children? Even if their illness or disability is there through no action of their own?
The best definition of child abuse I can think of is Any willful act that will predictably cause harm to a child.
People of child bearing age have the choice of what they eat. Parents have the choice of what to feed their kids. Parents dont have to buy cigarettes for 13 year olds like mine did, or give them drugs, etc.
If, for some reason, someones health is such that potential children will likely suffer they should, as responsible adults, consider adopting or not having kids. Theres nothing wrong with adopted children.

Heres an incident that left an impression on me. I knew this girl, she was kind, friendly, and smart. She had a genetic disease, it condemned her to a lifetime of pain and suffering and death by the age of 45. The nature of the disease was such that if she had a girl she would be a carrier for the disease, if she had a boy it was 100% certain he would have the disease. To my total bewilderment she adamantly wanted a child of her 'own blood', absolutely not an adopted one. It took her years but she got one, a boy, a nice young boy in constant pain for the rest of his life slowly being crippled by a disease that would cut his lifespan in half. I never could wrap my head around that one but it always struck me as wildly unethical and a singular example of the dangers of unrestrained ego and greed.
Cheeseburgering an 8 year old half to death is a milder form of the same mental derangement.
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#39 Old 12-19-2016, 11:34 AM
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I believe that children are very resilient and robust and can handle a variety of different types of diets and come out okay. Most Americans of my generation, born in the 1960s, ate a diet in which most meals consisted of meat with a side of starch (potatoes or rice) and, usually, another side of some type of green vegetable like spinach or green peas. Most people grew up fine and have chosen whatever diet they want later in life. Children can grow up fine vegan as well. I don't have children, but if I did, subject to whatever my wife wanted, I'd advocate a vegan diet, with plenty of both whole plant foods, for micronutrients, and processed foods including faux meats, for protein and flavor.

The bottom line is that children are resilient. Same with young adults, whose bodies can handle all manner of foods, other substances, and other types of stress and abuse. This is called homeostasis, which is the ability of the body to maintain a static state regardless of what's put into it or what's going on around it. Homeostasis starts to decrease as one leaves young adulthood and moves into middle age. Here is a random link I found on the decline of homeostasis with age:

http://classroom.synonym.com/aging-a...sis-22809.html

So, I think it's with people in their late thirties and up where diet really starts to make a significant difference when it comes to maintaining health. Before that, you can get away with almost anything, I think. That being said, I wouldn't want to go overboard. I suspect that raising a child on fast food several times a week would probably cause some health problems.
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#40 Old 12-19-2016, 01:23 PM
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I agree that children can handle a more unhealthy diet as long as it's not very bad however there may be an argument that you should not do so since it's taking an unnecessary chance.

There may be an argument that children should be bought up on a very unhealthy diet to set their future habits for the rest of their life. This may be the most important reason to feed children a healthy diet, along with education as to the reason you are doing it. Your kids' favourite junk foods may become favourite nostalgia foods as an adult. I'm not sure how strong this line or argument is but it's worth considering.

It's probably true that you can get away with an unhealthy diet until about you 50s but why risk it. Probably in your 20s and 30s you only need a good diet for improved athletic performance.

For myself I ate a fairly unhealthy diet in my 20s, and a fairly healthy one now (36) and will probably later in life go more and more cautious, according to the research of the time.
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#41 Old 12-19-2016, 01:28 PM
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...The nature of the disease was such that if she had a girl she would be a carrier for the disease, if she had a boy it was 100% certain he would have the disease. To my total bewilderment she adamantly wanted a child of her 'own blood', absolutely not an adopted one. It took her years but she got one, a boy, a nice young boy in constant pain for the rest of his life slowly being crippled by a disease that would cut his lifespan in half. I never could wrap my head around that one but it always struck me as wildly unethical and a singular example of the dangers of unrestrained ego and greed. ...
.
I agree with you that it is morally questionable to have a child in this situation but perhaps not as blatantly unethical as you think.
It must be tough to be in such a position.
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#42 Old 12-19-2016, 03:14 PM
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I believe that children are very resilient and robust and can handle a variety of different types of diets and come out okay.
To a degree thats true, but only to a degree. For example diabetes, they had to rename diabetes types because of all the 8 year olds getting 'adult onset' diabetes these days. A few generations back that was unheard of.

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It's probably true that you can get away with an unhealthy diet until about you 50s but why risk it. Probably in your 20s and 30s you only need a good diet for improved athletic performance.
Lots of men are now having heart attacks and strokes in their 30's. I know two who had strokes just in the last year. Erectile dysfunction caused by relatively advanced atherosclerosis is also now hitting guys in their 30's. I pay attention to these things, I'm 37, lol
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#43 Old 12-19-2016, 09:07 PM
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I agree with you that it is morally questionable to have a child in this situation but perhaps not as blatantly unethical as you think.
It must be tough to be in such a position.
Of course. I was saying, where do you draw the line?

''Giving a child bad health'' is a pretty broad brush to paint with, giving a child a 100% chance of a life full of pain is different.

Those cases are exceptions though, speaking as a disabled person I get quite upset if healthy people think that my life isn't worthwhile because I was born this way.

I love my life, and I am pretty sure most people who were born disabled do.

Giving a child a 100% fast food diet that will harm it's health is a conscious act of callousness and shouldn't be ok.
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#44 Old 12-19-2016, 11:33 PM
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Some vegans have orthorexia. It's not synonymous with veganism, but it is an issue with some individuals. Many faux meats contain organic ingredients and few preservatives, while yes others are less wholesome - I think to automatically label them all junk food is missing the point entirely, some veggie burgers for example have excellent ingredients plus the bonus of extra B12 or calcium. ..Gardein fishless filets are a little more on the processed side, but have lots of Omega 3s, so if you serve them on sour dough or whole grain bread with homemade tartar sauce and raw spinach, or pair them with steamed peas and a romaine salad, you're still getting a nutritious meal.

Again, some things are junkier than others, I don't rate smart dogs or daiya highly when speaking of health foods - but a smart dog is better than a pig butt hot dog, and daiya goes well on a pizza fortified with vegetables on top.

It's all about balance. I don't recommend anyone live off processed faux meats (that would get expensive anyway) but to call them all junk food is an exaggeration.
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#45 Old 12-19-2016, 11:35 PM
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To a degree thats true, but only to a degree. For example diabetes, they had to rename diabetes types because of all the 8 year olds getting 'adult onset' diabetes these days. A few generations back that was unheard of.

Lots of men are now having heart attacks and strokes in their 30's. I know two who had strokes just in the last year. Erectile dysfunction caused by relatively advanced atherosclerosis is also now hitting guys in their 30's. I pay attention to these things, I'm 37, lol
Probably because they eat a ton of meat, no vegetables except pickles and iceberg lettuce, and overindulge in fast food. I doubt very seriously it's because they're eating a veggie burger made out of mushrooms, nuts and grains.
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#46 Old 12-19-2016, 11:47 PM
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My whole food plant based diet is absolutely wonderful, I eat all the delicious food that I want. I would be hard pressed to call that asceticism.
As for puritanism, the Puritans aimed to rid themselves of immorality and corruption and to get themselves educated enough to study and evaluate situations for themselves. I dont see how Puritan became a derogatory term. I guess I'm a buddhist puritan


The same thing turned me off when I was 14. I went to a vegan families house for dinner and it was a horrible 1990's mock meat dinner with very little flavor or variety. Soy patties on white bread buns with vegan mayo, that sort of thing. Vegan junk food. I was 30 before I would even consider going vegan. Had that introduction to vegan cuisine been home made chilli or curry or something I would have had a vastly different impression of veganism for those 16 years.

People consider most factory processed vegan food as junk food because it is junk food.
Junk food is food which is predictably conductive to harm. Most factory processed vegan foods are high in salt, fat, and sugar, low in fiber, phytonutrients, and naturally occurring vitamins, containing advanced glycation end products, oxidized and rancidifying fats, and even cancer causing polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and acrylates, endocrine disrupting bisplenols, and a vast assortment of food additives. Even the term 'natural flavoring' includes synthetic, factory produced, chemicals known to cause disease, this includes banned chemical solvents like benzene and ingredients of superglue that gives the glue those friendly labels like 'avoid contact, may cause cancer'.
Vegan junk food is vegan because it doesnt hurt cows or chickens, and thats cool, but what about the harm to yourself and your children. Or future children?

Edit: Just a thought for those of the 'I dont have time to cook' camp. I bet you find time to watch TV to relax. I have a stereo in the kitchen so I can relax listening to music and cooking.
Uh it sounds like you're describing some of the 7th day adventist faux meats that still come in cans and actually don't know a lot about all of the more wholesome and nutritious vegan products on the market now, literally it sounds like to haven't been to a grocery store in 10 years.

Also your other post about children having type 2 diabetes - you know that's primarily from candy, soda, ice cream, entire families being obese and having fast food diets with nary a vegetable in sight, right?

I'm really happy you enjoy your diet, but you're exaggerating, and you need to be called on it.
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#47 Old 12-20-2016, 12:00 AM
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People consider most factory processed vegan food as junk food because it is junk food. Junk food is food which is predictably conductive to harm. Most factory processed vegan foods are high in salt, fat, and sugar, low in fiber, phytonutrients, and naturally occurring vitamins, containing advanced glycation end products, oxidized and rancidifying fats, and even cancer causing polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and acrylates, endocrine disrupting bisplenols, and a vast assortment of food additives

I disagree. Regarding your assertion of processed vegan foods being high in salt, there is a little bit more than ideal, true, but honestly, sodium is an overblown concern in most peoples' diet. Also, I eat a lot of processed vegan foods and average only around 2000 or 2500 mg of sodium per day. Despite the USDA being around 2500, studies have shown that most of the real harm comes in when average 3500 or above. I'm middle aged and have perfect blood pressure. No, I'm not worried about sodium. Plus, salt tastes good.

Regarding fat, there is actually nothing whatsoever wrong with this macronutrient, except for trans fat and, in large quantities, saturated fat. Almost all of the fat in processed vegan foods is monounsaturated and polyunsaturated. Zero harm there.

Regarding your assertion of sugar, I'm really curious what processed vegan foods you believe are high in sugar? Certainly not faux meats, which typically have none at all.

Regarding the rest of your parade of horribles (not enough fiber, phytonutrients, naturally occurring vitamins, etc.), this is honestly a red herring. Eating faux meats doesn't stop anyone from getting all of that other stuff from the whole foods that one eats alongside the faux meats. Eating, for example, a faux burger on a bun with a side of refried beans and brown rice, you'd get plenty of fiber from the beans alone. Regarding phytonutrients, most vegans get toward the high end of this and, if anything, too much. I'm a vegetarian who eats vegan nearly all the time (exception is very occasional cheese in social situations). From a nutritional standpoint (as opposed to an ethical standpoint), my diet is effectively vegan. The amount of phytonutrients I get in soy milk and tempeh alone pushes me to the high end from health standpoint. Also, I wouldn't want any more fiber in my diet. I already average up around 40 grams per day. And, regarding vitamins, there is plenty in the whole foods that the average vegan eats alongside the faux meats.

No, I think your arguments against processed foods are not very well founded and, I suspect, are essentially a form of asceticism. Faux meats are a nice flavor and protein boost when consumed in a normal diet that also includes whole foods. Besides which, I find a plate full of green stuff--kale, broccoli, whatever--to be not really all that appetizing. I think this is rather common for humans, which is why only 3% of the population is vegetarian, and only 0.5% of the population is vegan, with a subset of that being whole plant food vegan. It's also why wpf vegan is such a tough sell, and why "processed" vegan food should be the type used to try to convince omnis to explore a less animal-based diet.

I agree with the majority of your post, except your comment about humans not liking plates full of green stuff...one of my favorite foods now is kale sautéed with garlic on toast slathered in hummus, with salt pepper and crushed red pepper on top. I've always loved spinach, even when I was little I liked it with acv, and I love it in lentil or other bean soups. I sometimes eat raw kale straight from the bag, and eat a lot of hearts of romaine salads with Italian or ****ake mushroom dressing. I also like split pea soup, and could eat a full cup of plain steamed peas. I know a guy who has been vegetarian since before he was born (ha ha) and one of his favorite foods from early childhood on is broccoli. I also love broccoli both raw and cooked. My grandparents grew most of our vegetables when I was a kid, and I think people who don't like vegetables were either never offered them regularly as children or were only given things like canned corn and ****ty canned vegetable soup.

Sorry for the rant, but I agree with you on the other 90% of your post.
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#48 Old 12-20-2016, 09:25 AM
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I agree with the majority of your post, except your comment about humans not liking plates full of green stuff.

Yes, I probably went too far with that statement. Put it this way, though. You almost never have to convince a child to eat an apple pie or a cheeseburger, but you do often (usually) have to convince a child to eat kale. I know some might say it's all a matter of what the child is used to and what they're raised on, and that's true to some extent, but I believe that there is more to it. The human taste buds probably developed to reward the consumption of scarce items in the early human diet. Scarce items means high calorie, high protein, high fat, and high salt foods. So sweet flavors (sugar) and umami flavors (the glutamine receptor i.e. protein which often meant meat in the early human diet), as well as salty and fatty (high calorie) foods are the most rewarded by the taste buds, again probably because they were important but scarce in early human diets. Green leafy vegetables can be much more easily be foraged (I could go out and pick them in my back yard now if it weren't covered by snow), so there was no need for taste buds to evolve to give much reward from eating them.

On the other hand, while a believe there is much truth to that theory, it's an oversimplification. For one thing, some green vegetables are in fact savory, meaning they trip the umami receptor on the tongue and signal glutamine, a marker for protein. My favorite green vegetable, spinach, is a prime example of this, and note that it's a high protein food on a protein as a percent of energy basis (though not on a protein as a percent of bulk basis). This makes sense, as the human taste buds give an umami reward for eating this type of veggie. I'd add broccoli to the list, which is savory and relatively high protein, though I personally am rather lukewarm when it comes to the taste of broccoli. Someone mentioned pea soup as a green vegetable that tastes good. I love pea soup, but it's not really a green vegetable in the traditional sense. It's a legume, and thus more a protein dish, and is savory (umami-laden) and typically salty. Another savory/umami vegetable which I and most people like is tomatoes, though of course they're not green. But some other things, like kale, aren't particularly savory imo, and it's rather difficult to get most children to eat them. Of course, it's possible to load it up with olive oil, salt, etc. and that can change.

Please note that I'm not advocating for eating a high "processed food" diet, and I'm certainly not advocating for eating meat. What I'm saying, though, is that it's important to understand humans and what makes us tick, and also understand health and nutrition, as we advocate for the reduction and/or elimination of animal products in human diets.
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#49 Old 12-20-2016, 11:58 AM
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I agree with the majority of your post, except your comment about humans not liking plates full of green stuff.

Yes, I probably went too far with that statement. Put it this way, though. You almost never have to convince a child to eat an apple pie or a cheeseburger, but you do often (usually) have to convince a child to eat kale. I know some might say it's all a matter of what the child is used to and what they're raised on, and that's true to some extent, but I believe that there is more to it. The human taste buds probably developed to reward the consumption of scarce items in the early human diet. Scarce items means high calorie, high protein, high fat, and high salt foods. So sweet flavors (sugar) and umami flavors (the glutamine receptor i.e. protein which often meant meat in the early human diet), as well as salty and fatty (high calorie) foods are the most rewarded by the taste buds, again probably because they were important but scarce in early human diets. Green leafy vegetables can be much more easily be foraged (I could go out and pick them in my back yard now if it weren't covered by snow), so there was no need for taste buds to evolve to give much reward from eating them.

On the other hand, while a believe there is much truth to that theory, it's an oversimplification. For one thing, some green vegetables are in fact savory, meaning they trip the umami receptor on the tongue and signal glutamine, a marker for protein. My favorite green vegetable, spinach, is a prime example of this, and note that it's a high protein food on a protein as a percent of energy basis (though not on a protein as a percent of bulk basis). This makes sense, as the human taste buds give an umami reward for eating this type of veggie. I'd add broccoli to the list, which is savory and relatively high protein, though I personally am rather lukewarm when it comes to the taste of broccoli. Someone mentioned pea soup as a green vegetable that tastes good. I love pea soup, but it's not really a green vegetable in the traditional sense. It's a legume, and thus more a protein dish, and is savory (umami-laden) and typically salty. Another savory/umami vegetable which I and most people like is tomatoes, though of course they're not green. But some other things, like kale, aren't particularly savory imo, and it's rather difficult to get most children to eat them. Of course, it's possible to load it up with olive oil, salt, etc. and that can change.

Please note that I'm not advocating for eating a high "processed food" diet, and I'm certainly not advocating for eating meat. What I'm saying, though, is that it's important to understand humans and what makes us tick, and also understand health and nutrition, as we advocate for the reduction and/or elimination of animal products in human diets.
I agree with you on most of what you said and I totally understand your response here (though I hated cheeseburgers, chicken legs and ham as a child and mostly liked tuna sandwiches or shreds of chicken disguised in thick gravy and pastry puffs of chicken and dumplings as a child, and I go the opposite of you, I believe children have to be coerced to eat meat in funny shapes like nuggets - another favorite of mine which is why I now like vegan chkn fingers with buffalo and ranch) ...I know it's easier to get children to eat cheese toast instead of Brussel sprouts, but that's only because children haven't developed complex receptors for bitter or sour foods and have sensitive tongues which protect them (hopefully) from randomly eating poisonous plants or cleaning solvent or drinking their parents wine.

I think honestly dislike of veggies is cultural for the most part, because in the Mediterranean and Far East Asia diets are like 80% veggie traditionally and are 100 percent vegetarian in parts of India (though not vegan).

My family gave me a lot of fruits and vegetables as a child and I feel very grateful for that, I actually wished they would have skipped the meat conditioning though - although my breakfasts and lunches were lacto vegetarian about six days per week and at least one dinner per week was beans and cornbread, I really had to be taught to eat meat and by middle school was ordering my own pizzas with tomatoes, mushrooms and olives. ..I used to eat raw cabbage and turnips out of the fridge all summer, because it was there, I used to eat so much cabbage around age ten or so I was looked on as the cabbage theif, lol.

But I get what you are saying. People do like umami flavors, familiar seeming foods and comfort foods.
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#50 Old 12-20-2016, 12:01 PM
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Probably because they eat a ton of meat, no vegetables except pickles and iceberg lettuce, and overindulge in fast food. I doubt very seriously it's because they're eating a veggie burger made out of mushrooms, nuts and grains.
I'm sure your mostly, if not entirely, correct. [Add fat to your list tho.]
But many vegans eat far too few vegetables and no whole grains too. The difference may just be a matter of degree.

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Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
Uh it sounds like you...actually don't know a lot about all of the more wholesome and nutritious vegan products on the market now, literally it sounds like to haven't been to a grocery store in 10 years
In one of my posts on this thread I did say that not all fake meats, etc, are junk food and in that context I said junk food is bad. I could go to the kitchen and make fake meat from scratch right now and it would be healthy and I'll believe you when you say some store bought stuff is fine too. Your right, I havent evaluated many of them.
Of course I go to the grocery store, I just dont shop in that section or buy those products because it would literally double my food bill [all my food and drink combined is $4 USD per day on a 2,600 Calorie diet], and because its just not worked its way into my culinary style- my food is absolutely delicious so I havent seen the need to double my food bill. I'm going into my yearly cooking creativity mania phase right now and perhaps I will try out the 'faux meats' but rather than just paying $4+ a pound for them I'll make them for $0.14 a pound, its more fun that way anyway.

So to anyone thinking I'm a fanatical extremist that just grazes on his lawn and eats tree bark:
No, not all food processing is bad
Yes, some prepared veg*n products are healthy
No, I'm not dressed in a loin cloth made from local grasses
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#51 Old 12-20-2016, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Auxin View Post
I'm sure your mostly, if not entirely, correct. [Add fat to your list tho.]
But many vegans eat far too few vegetables and no whole grains too. The difference may just be a matter of degree.

In one of my posts on this thread I did say that not all fake meats, etc, are junk food and in that context I said junk food is bad. I could go to the kitchen and make fake meat from scratch right now and it would be healthy and I'll believe you when you say some store bought stuff is fine too. Your right, I havent evaluated many of them.
Of course I go to the grocery store, I just dont shop in that section or buy those products because it would literally double my food bill [all my food and drink combined is $4 USD per day on a 2,600 Calorie diet], and because its just not worked its way into my culinary style- my food is absolutely delicious so I havent seen the need to double my food bill. I'm going into my yearly cooking creativity mania phase right now and perhaps I will try out the 'faux meats' but rather than just paying $4+ a pound for them I'll make them for $0.14 a pound, its more fun that way anyway.

So to anyone thinking I'm a fanatical extremist that just grazes on his lawn and eats tree bark:
No, not all food processing is bad
Yes, some prepared veg*n products are healthy
No, I'm not dressed in a loin cloth made from local grasses
OK cool. Except that I'm not sure "many" vegans eat far too few vegetables but "some." I know there really are junk food vegans who won't eat vegetables because their diet was so awful before they became vegan that they subsist on "cheez" pizza and cereal, and those people need as much help as a meat eater, or lacto-vegetarian who lacks diversity in their diet. I honestly think the better analogs help those people get more nutrients and fiber, though. Mock methyl cellulose all you want, but it's safe enough to use in eye drops and KY jelly and can get fiber into these people. ..products like veggie burgers may sneak more veggies and whole grains into their day, and some noodles (like Annie Chung noodle bowls or Daiya mac n cheez) have vegetables in them plus are fortified with things like iron and calcium...there is pasta and pizza sauce now that has greens and yams hidden in the mix to increase vegetable intake, so it's not all bad.

Some people don't have the time or the skill to make their own faux meats, and brands like Amys, or Gardein, are better than these people eating Oreos or potato chips for calories...people who are obese have actually died from malnutrition and not because they're vegan, either, these are omnis, who just ate almost nothing of nutritional value. At least many (though not all) vegan analogs provide nutrients and fiber, unlike a McDonald's big n nasty. McDonald's nuggets are far more disgusting and unhealthy than Gardein nuggets, and not just because of the meat but because of the other chemicals often not even looked at by Western omnis from certain backgrounds. At least Tofurky is mostly organic and doesn't contain melted plastic.
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#52 Old 12-20-2016, 01:14 PM
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Some people don't have the time or the skill to make their own faux meats, and brands like Amys, or Gardein, are better than these people eating Oreos or potato chips for calories...people who are obese have actually died from malnutrition and not because they're vegan, either, these are omnis, who just ate almost nothing of nutritional value.

With all due respect, this is patronizing. First, "these people," myself included, are not choosing between Gardein products and Oreos, potato chips, etc. I believe that Gardein, etc. faux meats are actually good for human health, not only tasty. You seem to be implying that what you would probably call "junk food vegans" or whatever might as well eat, e.g. Gardein because, hey, it's better than potato chips. I think this is asceticism, with an undertone of Puritanism. In fact, a small to moderate amount of faux meat (or flesh-based meat, except for the harm it causes to animals) is probably a good thing in the human diet, because it adds some extra highly-concentrated protein, and as humans age, getting only the bare minimum of protein, as many, many vegans get, will probably result in reduced muscle mass and more likelihood of being injured in falls, etc. (There are several recent studies on the benefit of getting double the recommended protein amount over the age of 50.) There are probably other subtle benefits in getting above the bare minimum recommended amount of protein. Faux meats help with this, without harming animals. At my height and weight, for example (I'm tall), the bare minimum of protein per day would be around 75 mg, but I get usually around 100 mg. This is probably better for my long-term health. (See also, by the way, the online blogs by Jack Norris, vegan nutritionist, who talks about the benefits for getting a bit above the bare minimum of protein.)

Second, it's not that people don't have "time or the skill" to make their own faux meats, it's that: why would we make our own? I don't bake my own bread, ferment my own tempeh, or squeeze my own carrot juice. Nor do I sew my own clothes. Why would I want to mess around with making faux meats? I'd never be able to get them tasting as good, and with as much of a protein boost, as Gardein. And it would take a lot of time out of my day.

Last edited by Dilettante; 12-20-2016 at 02:02 PM.
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#53 Old 12-20-2016, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post

. ..Gardein fishless filets are a little more on the processed side, but have lots of Omega 3s, ....
They even have the DHA form of Omega 3 according to an ingredient list I just looked up, which isn't in any whole plant foods. Worth considering just for that.
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#54 Old 12-20-2016, 03:40 PM
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The Gardein fishless fillets are okay tasting, but imo just okay. I haven't tried them with a vegan tartar sauce yest but plan to do so at some point. I suspect they'd be better that way. (And yes, the DHA is a nice bonus.) As far as I'm concerned, the best Gardein products are Meatless Meatballs and Seven Grain Crispy Tenders. The Meatless Meatballs, in particular, are the perfect complement to pasta and marinara sauce, and the Seven Grain Crispy Tenders go well with pasta and olive oil.

Gardein had announced it was coming out with some "skillet meals," which were to be Gardein faux meats pre-mixed with some frozen starches and veggies. However, after making a big splash about it last year, they put it on hold and said the skillet meals won't be coming out for a while. Not sure why, but I was looking forward to that.

Last edited by Dilettante; 12-20-2016 at 03:43 PM.
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#55 Old 12-20-2016, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jamie in Chile View Post
They even have the DHA form of Omega 3 according to an ingredient list I just looked up, which isn't in any whole plant foods. Worth considering just for that.
Algae, algae has omega DHA

I've seen more foods including algae dha

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
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#56 Old 12-20-2016, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
...Some people don't have the... skill to make their own faux meats...
I think this touches on a major, and largely ignored, problem in the western world which is helping to drive unhealthy diets. Kids are not taught to cook! With very basic cooking skills and youtube anyone could make mock meats
My school didnt have home economics, there were no cooking classes available, my grandmother didnt cook, my mother didnt cook anything beyond hamburger helper, and when she 'taught me to cook' it consisted of telling me how to microwave a frozen burrito... in the plastic wrapper! Everything I know of cooking has been self taught.
Granted, many kids get a bit more- they learn mac and cheese and cookies, perhaps cake. Some schools do have home ec but enrollment is never mandatory except perhaps for girls in rural districts.
To get a society to eat better they need the skills, as well as the materials. We've all heard of 'food deserts', what about 'skill deserts'?
If I ever have kids I'll make cooking a family activity starting when they are quite young.
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#57 Old 12-20-2016, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
Some people don't have the time or the skill to make their own faux meats, and brands like Amys, or Gardein, are better than these people eating Oreos or potato chips for calories...people who are obese have actually died from malnutrition and not because they're vegan, either, these are omnis, who just ate almost nothing of nutritional value.

With all due respect, this is patronizing. First, "these people," myself included, are not choosing between Gardein products and Oreos, potato chips, etc. I believe that Gardein, etc. faux meats are actually good for human health, not only tasty. You seem to be implying that what you would probably call "junk food vegans" or whatever might as well eat, e.g. Gardein because, hey, it's better than potato chips. I think this is asceticism, with an undertone of Puritanism. In fact, a small to moderate amount of faux meat (or flesh-based meat, except for the harm it causes to animals) is probably a good thing in the human diet, because it adds some extra highly-concentrated protein, and as humans age, getting only the bare minimum of protein, as many, many vegans get, will probably result in reduced muscle mass and more likelihood of being injured in falls, etc. (There are several recent studies on the benefit of getting double the recommended protein amount over the age of 50.) There are probably other subtle benefits in getting above the bare minimum recommended amount of protein. Faux meats help with this, without harming animals. At my height and weight, for example (I'm tall), the bare minimum of protein per day would be around 75 mg, but I get usually around 100 mg. This is probably better for my long-term health. (See also, by the way, the online blogs by Jack Norris, vegan nutritionist, who talks about the benefits for getting a bit above the bare minimum of protein.)

Second, it's not that people don't have "time or the skill" to make their own faux meats, it's that: why would we make our own? I don't bake my own bread, ferment my own tempeh, or squeeze my own carrot juice. Nor do I sew my own clothes. Why would I want to mess around with making faux meats? I'd never be able to get them tasting as good, and with as much of a protein boost, as Gardein. And it would take a lot of time out of my day.
With all due respect, I think you're getting confused about whom you're talking to. I'm the one who agrees with you, I'm the one that eats Gardein fishless sticks from time to time, who puts Follow Your Heart mozzarella on my grilled eggplant with pasta marinara. I don't eat analogues every single day, but I do go through phases where I do eat them every day for three or four days. Then I might start going back to beans or lentils for a time, because I get sick of the analogues, or I mix them up with regular tofu or setein. I'm the one who said it's cool to eat a veggie burger as long as you also eat fruits and vegetables.

BUT THERE ARE JUNK FOOD VEGANS. That isn't "patronizing"...I was actually correcting his assumption that "many" vegans don't get enough veggies and said it's only some...and yeah SOME VEGANS don't eat beans, pulses, fresh fruits or many veggies, they literally try to survive on analogues alone, and while it's not what most people would call healthy or balanced, it's still better than McDonald's or Oreos and potato chips.

Some people don't have the time or skill to make faux meats - he does. He said he'd make them cheaper and possibly healthier than the store brands, but well, some vegans don't know how to cook or have time for that.

I don't know why you're being so defensive towards me, I'm the middle man (woman) here!
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#58 Old 12-20-2016, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Auxin View Post
I think this touches on a major, and largely ignored, problem in the western world which is helping to drive unhealthy diets. Kids are not taught to cook! With very basic cooking skills and youtube anyone could make mock meats
My school didnt have home economics, there were no cooking classes available, my grandmother didnt cook, my mother didnt cook anything beyond hamburger helper, and when she 'taught me to cook' it consisted of telling me how to microwave a frozen burrito... in the plastic wrapper! Everything I know of cooking has been self taught.
Granted, many kids get a bit more- they learn mac and cheese and cookies, perhaps cake. Some schools do have home ec but enrollment is never mandatory except perhaps for girls in rural districts.
To get a society to eat better they need the skills, as well as the materials. We've all heard of 'food deserts', what about 'skill deserts'?
If I ever have kids I'll make cooking a family activity starting when they are quite young.
I started learning to cook when I was seven. My mother is a good cook. I'm originally from the South, so that may factor into it (just like my family members literally growing their own food and making their own jelly/jam)...so I do collect and try whole foods vegan recipes, and it certainly made my transition that much easier, particularly through times when I was broke for a few days to a week and couldn't afford analogues...but could afford to make delicious split pea soup with carrots, garlic and rosemary. I put together pasta sauce from avacado, nutritional yeast and vegan mayo once. I aspire to make my own seitan and nut milks, I'm moving next year and hopefully will enjoy a slower paced life amongst many more like minded people in Northern California.

But yes we have a problem with people who have no clue where food comes from or how to prepare it without a microwave. Those poor people don't even know how to prepare a Tofurky roast so that it's delicious not only to vegans but to their friends and family who are meat eaters...even analogues sometimes are that much better with basic cooking/combining skills.

I'm just saying I wouldn't go as far as to say "most" vegans don't eat enough vegetables - I'd suggest that more often true among lacto-ovo vegetarians, but not always and they still live longer than omnis, on average.
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