Responding to seemingly practical arguments against veganism? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 06-03-2016, 06:23 PM
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Angry Responding to seemingly practical arguments against veganism?

So, my husband (omnivore) and I got into a pretty heated debate about my going vegan. Among many arguments I made, I explained the idea of the carbon footprint, and how veganism greatly diminishes it. (He also believes I'm greatly reducing my own quality of life for the quality of life for "just cows"... gah). I explained that when I see animals being so horrifically abused for meat/feathers/leather/fur, etc, I can't help but see my own dog, whom I love dearly, being put through all the same horrifying things. If I would feel so sick for her, why not others? Anyway, I digress (as always). He argued that the carbon footprint idea was entirely false, because it assumes that the meat/feather/leather/fur, etc. industry is able to evaluate their demand down to the single person. In reality, they produce more than enough for consumers. In other words, if I (one person) stops eating meat, the meat factories will still make the same amount of meat, and therefore my "carbon footprint" won't really diminish, because they aren't capable of adjusting how many animals are slaughtered based on just one person.

Now, his argument might be correct; or it may not be. I wasn't really sure what to say to the argument. I've seen tons of data that explains why vegans' carbon footprints' are greatly reduced, but his argument really put a damper on my feelings. Could someone explain how the carbon footprint theory holds up to the actuality of marketing and production?

Also... what other arguments have you heard that might sound correct, but aren't (by your understanding)?
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#2 Old 06-03-2016, 06:44 PM
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He argued that the carbon footprint idea was entirely false, because it assumes that the meat/feather/leather/fur, etc. industry is able to evaluate their demand down to the single person. In reality, they produce more than enough for consumers. In other words, if I (one person) stops eating meat, the meat factories will still make the same amount of meat, and therefore my "carbon footprint" won't really diminish, because they aren't capable of adjusting how many animals are slaughtered based on just one person.

Now, his argument might be correct; or it may not be. I wasn't really sure what to say to the argument. I've seen tons of data that explains why vegans' carbon footprints' are greatly reduced, but his argument really put a damper on my feelings. Could someone explain how the carbon footprint theory holds up to the actuality of marketing and production?
Tackling Climate Change Through Livestock, 2013:
Livestock farming is responsible for "14.5 percent of all anthropogenic GHG emissions"

Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change:
The transportation sector is responsible for 11% of all anthropogenic (man-made) greenhouse gas emissions

Therefore: Livestock farming is responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than the entire transportation sector (every car, bus, train, jet, motorcycle, etc. in the world combined).

Second, his argument has a critical fallacy: it's all about supply and demand; there is growing interest in vegetarianism/veganism. As you, your husband, as we as a civilization start doing the right thing, demand for meat goes down, and thus so does supply.
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#3 Old 06-03-2016, 06:54 PM
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I know I am turning into the cranky old lady because I just want to say to the husband: Grow Up, Young Man, and eat your vegetables.

And get off my lawn!
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#4 Old 06-03-2016, 07:22 PM
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My life has greatly improved living vegan. I feel better, I live simpler, I spend less.
I've found more food than I ever thought about before, and easy ways to prepare it deliciously.
My mind thinks vegan, so when I see someone eating something it assumes veg. When it occurs to me it's dead flesh it shakes me, probably like if the person eating it found out it were human
More people are eating veg'n every day. Large corporations are realizing they need to turn to plant based products to compete.
Of course it reduces supply. There's no money in waste. It's like how tobacco companies are turning to vapor things

Everything is built on individuals, change starts with one
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#5 Old 06-03-2016, 07:54 PM
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Many years ago, in December 1955, there was this black woman named Rosa Parks. She was seated on a bus, and refused to give up her seat to a white man. At that time, a lot of people would have just given up their seat because they knew it was a lost cause, that they were powerless to segregation, laws, racism. But Rosa stood up for herself and asserted her human rights. It was more important to her than the consequences she was going to face for her actions. She may not have made a huge difference for civil rights that day, but she started a domino effect. Doing the right thing will always make a positive difference.
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#6 Old 06-03-2016, 08:05 PM
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Many years ago, in December 1955, there was this black woman named Rosa Parks. She was seated on a bus, and refused to give up her seat to a white man. At that time, a lot of people would have just given up their seat because they knew it was a lost cause, that they were powerless to segregation, laws, racism. But Rosa stood up for herself and asserted her human rights. It was more important to her than the consequences she was going to face for her actions. She may not have made a huge difference for civil rights that day, but she started a domino effect. Doing the right thing will always make a positive difference.
I love this.
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#7 Old 06-03-2016, 10:30 PM
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Hi Nietscha,

You can rest assured that you're doing the right thing by being vegan.

It probably won't do any good to argue with your husband, or to respond to his arguments. He's been taken by surprise! Becoming vegan is like adopting a radically new religion, and it's something that he never saw coming. He's trying to adjust. If you try to change him, it's just going to make it harder.

As a fellow vegan, I really wish you the best with this situation. Just remember that your husband will never truly appreciate veganism unless he feels inwardly inspired to do it. Arguments won't bring out this inspiration.

.

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#8 Old 06-03-2016, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nietzscha View Post
In other words, if I (one person) stops eating meat, the meat factories will still make the same amount of meat, and therefore my "carbon footprint" won't really diminish, because they aren't capable of adjusting how many animals are slaughtered based on just one person.

1. - There are millions of vegetarians/vegans. Are the meat factories still making meat for them? (That would be stupid).

2. - So you HAVE(!!!) to eat meat because the factories are producing it specialy for you?

3. - If you don't eat meat, there is more meat for your husband. Has he already an appointment with the hospital?

4. - Economics is: Supply and demand

5. - You are not only ONE person. You are not the only vegan on earth. And if it was, you are the one who is thinking. The one with good ideas.
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My usual answer: I have never heard a convincing reason to eat meat.
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#9 Old 06-05-2016, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Nietzscha View Post
So, my husband (omnivore) and I got into a pretty heated debate about my going vegan. Among many arguments I made, I explained the idea of the carbon footprint, and how veganism greatly diminishes it. (He also believes I'm greatly reducing my own quality of life for the quality of life for "just cows"... gah). I explained that when I see animals being so horrifically abused for meat/feathers/leather/fur, etc, I can't help but see my own dog, whom I love dearly, being put through all the same horrifying things. If I would feel so sick for her, why not others? Anyway, I digress (as always). He argued that the carbon footprint idea was entirely false, because it assumes that the meat/feather/leather/fur, etc. industry is able to evaluate their demand down to the single person. In reality, they produce more than enough for consumers. In other words, if I (one person) stops eating meat, the meat factories will still make the same amount of meat, and therefore my "carbon footprint" won't really diminish, because they aren't capable of adjusting how many animals are slaughtered based on just one person.

Now, his argument might be correct; or it may not be. I wasn't really sure what to say to the argument. I've seen tons of data that explains why vegans' carbon footprints' are greatly reduced, but his argument really put a damper on my feelings. Could someone explain how the carbon footprint theory holds up to the actuality of marketing and production?

Also... what other arguments have you heard that might sound correct, but aren't (by your understanding)?
Your husband's argument isn't really an argument, its an excuse... which lead me to believe that he isn't ready to accept the environmental factor as a valid reason to go vegan. Even though you think it is (and I agree with you) maybe you should consider a different approach with him. Have you considered approaching the health aspects of veganism, like maybe watch a documentary like Forks over Knives (on netflix) with him? My partner isn't swayed by environmental or ethical arguments as much as he is the health aspect- with the scientific evidence, its something he can relate to. And while he's not 100% vegan himself, he eats vegan with me and allows our home to be a vegan environment.
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#10 Old 06-05-2016, 12:54 PM
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Your husband's argument isn't really an argument, its an excuse... which lead me to believe that he isn't ready to accept the environmental factor as a valid reason to go vegan. Even though you think it is (and I agree with you) maybe you should consider a different approach with him. Have you considered approaching the health aspects of veganism, like maybe watch a documentary like Forks over Knives (on netflix) with him? My partner isn't swayed by environmental or ethical arguments as much as he is the health aspect- with the scientific evidence, its something he can relate to. And while he's not 100% vegan himself, he eats vegan with me and allows our home to be a vegan environment.
I totally agree with this. My husband isn't vegan either, and while I would love him to eventually join me, I assured him right from the start that I did not expect him to confirm to MY life decision... however, in leading by example (and sharing some documentaries with him, like Cowspiracy), it has prompted him to rethink some of his own choices and as a result, he chooses meat less and less often ^_^ Despite his love for dairy, is even choosing that less and less! (It helps when I make him yummy meals, smoothies, and desserts, so he can see how delicious vegan food can be! ^_^)
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#11 Old 06-05-2016, 01:52 PM
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I totally agree with this. My husband isn't vegan either, and while I would love him to eventually join me, I assured him right from the start that I did not expect him to confirm to MY life decision... however, in leading by example (and sharing some documentaries with him, like Cowspiracy), it has prompted him to rethink some of his own choices and as a result, he chooses meat less and less often ^_^ Despite his love for dairy, is even choosing that less and less! (It helps when I make him yummy meals, smoothies, and desserts, so he can see how delicious vegan food can be! ^_^)
Yes, this is a good attitude imo. Years ago, Vegan Cupcakes Take Over The World helped people realize I wasn't only nibbling on carrots. I made dozens of kinds of cupcakes
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#12 Old 06-05-2016, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nietzscha View Post
So, my husband (omnivore) and I got into a pretty heated debate about my going vegan. Among many arguments I made, I explained the idea of the carbon footprint, and how veganism greatly diminishes it. (He also believes I'm greatly reducing my own quality of life for the quality of life for "just cows"... gah). I explained that when I see animals being so horrifically abused for meat/feathers/leather/fur, etc, I can't help but see my own dog, whom I love dearly, being put through all the same horrifying things. If I would feel so sick for her, why not others? Anyway, I digress (as always). He argued that the carbon footprint idea was entirely false, because it assumes that the meat/feather/leather/fur, etc. industry is able to evaluate their demand down to the single person. In reality, they produce more than enough for consumers. In other words, if I (one person) stops eating meat, the meat factories will still make the same amount of meat, and therefore my "carbon footprint" won't really diminish, because they aren't capable of adjusting how many animals are slaughtered based on just one person.

Now, his argument might be correct; or it may not be. I wasn't really sure what to say to the argument. I've seen tons of data that explains why vegans' carbon footprints' are greatly reduced, but his argument really put a damper on my feelings. Could someone explain how the carbon footprint theory holds up to the actuality of marketing and production?

Also... what other arguments have you heard that might sound correct, but aren't (by your understanding)?
His argument about demand may have been true 5-10 years ago, but as a former manager for a deli counter who often had to order through our meat department for roasting chickens, I can tell you that the monitoring systems of MOST modern day big-box grocers are down to the day and demand from the last year, right down to the individual steak. Quite a bit gets wasted due to minor amounts of overstock in order to keep things "in stock," but the estimates are based on the previous year's demand and detailed research from companies like Nielson. They even know where your eyes are in some stores like Kroger! So one person eating vegan, particularly in a store that has a loyalty program that tracks purchases (because that's what loyalty programs are for on the stores's end) DOES make a difference. I wrote a post about this on my blog not too long ago, it goes into this a little bit while framing it around survey and ratings companies.

As far as reasonable arguments, even NBC argues that widespread veganism will help the planet. So there's some material and personal experience to help you out.

As for quality of life, this is entirely subjective, but I've found that by living my life entirely in accordance with my principles and ethics, that I've had a better quality of life and an easier time getting to sleep at night. I don't have to question as much if the decisions I'm making are right if I know that I'm living, every day, with every bite and every purchase, exactly what I believe in to the best of my ability. That reduced stress coupled with better nutrition has improved my health in measurable ways, from clean blood work to better blood pressure, even reduced weight and better body image, though I wasn't trying to lose weight. Being a part of the vegan movement has been a spiritual and social journey for me as well, and the kinship that I feel with the Tumblr community and the community here on Veggieboards is well worth every barbeque that I've had to bring my own veggie burgers to or every waiter I've annoyed with special requirements for my food allergies, intolerances, and preferences. So he can sit on that and think a while if he wants.
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#13 Old 06-05-2016, 07:38 PM
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What everyone else has said, especially Naturebound and Silva.
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#14 Old 06-05-2016, 09:16 PM
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Yes, this is a good attitude imo. Years ago, Vegan Cupcakes Take Over The World helped people realize I wasn't only nibbling on carrots. I made dozens of kinds of cupcakes
YAY! I just bought that book, for exactly that reason! Make cupcakes, not war!
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#15 Old 06-06-2016, 05:51 AM
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...if I (one person) stops eating meat, the meat factories will still make the same amount of meat, and therefore my "carbon footprint" won't really diminish, because they aren't capable of adjusting how many animals are slaughtered based on just one person.
Ghandi's "be the change you wish to see in the world" is a perfect quote of what I wanted to say.

As for arguments against veganism, they're all selfish. If, by any means, he gets to change your mind into thinking that it's somewhat okay to exploit animals, go for it, but remember to look at yourself in a mirror then. Are you really a person who's willing to give their own earned money to people who kill living beings, and then eat a part of the corpse afterwards for their own sake? And what sake is there? There's more bad than good even for one's own sake.
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#16 Old 06-06-2016, 01:50 PM
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His argument about demand may have been true 5-10 years ago, but as a former manager for a deli counter who often had to order through our meat department for roasting chickens, I can tell you that the monitoring systems of MOST modern day big-box grocers are down to the day and demand from the last year, right down to the individual steak. Quite a bit gets wasted due to minor amounts of overstock in order to keep things "in stock," but the estimates are based on the previous year's demand and detailed research from companies like Nielson. They even know where your eyes are in some stores like Kroger! So one person eating vegan, particularly in a store that has a loyalty program that tracks purchases (because that's what loyalty programs are for on the stores's end) DOES make a difference. I wrote a post about this on my blog not too long ago[/url], it goes into this a little bit while framing it around survey and ratings companies.


As for quality of life, this is entirely subjective, but I've found that by living my life entirely in accordance with my principles and ethics, that I've had a better quality of life and an easier time getting to sleep at night. I don't have to question as much if the decisions I'm making are right if I know that I'm living, every day, with every bite and every purchase, exactly what I believe in to the best of my ability. That reduced stress coupled with better nutrition has improved my health in measurable ways, from clean blood work to better blood pressure, even reduced weight and better body image, though I wasn't trying to lose weight. Being a part of the vegan movement has been a spiritual and social journey for me as well, and the kinship that I feel with the Tumblr community and the community here on Veggieboards is well worth every barbeque that I've had to bring my own veggie burgers to or every waiter I've annoyed with special requirements for my food allergies, intolerances, and preferences. So he can sit on that and think a while if he wants.

Wow, thanks for your insight. It's good to know that one person really can make a difference! I'm hoping to feel better as well. I've become accustomed to doing 4 days a week vegan (Monday through Thursday), and I always feel a difference mid-week. It's one of the many reasons I'm wanting to switch over completely. I've mentioned in another thread that I'm struggling with depression, and I find that I just feel a lot better when I've been vegan for days at a time, and that feeling of "better" is irreplaceable!

Sadly, the hubby won't respond to health arguments, at least not now. (And I'm not really trying to convert him anyway, just trying to show him that my way of living won't impede his too much; that's really what he's frustrated at!). He's one of those people who'd "rather be fat and happy" than "worry about what [he] eats all the time." The problem is, I know that "fat and happy" doesn't exist. I was there. I was once 50lbs heavier and was miserable (I'm still about 20 lbs overweight). My father has battled diabetes, two heart surgeries, and multiple issues with his intestines. He is NOT fat AND happy.

As far as cost... I find that I'm spending way more? Especially since everything I consume is fast to spoil, so I can't buy one of something and keep it forever! Considering I was already spending lots on veggies and fruits, now I'm subsidizing cheese and eggs with miso, nut cheeses, and nutritional yeast, which are all pretty pricey. Oh, and I loooove nuts, and make macadamia nut Cream Cheeze, which costs about twice as much as dairy cream cheese! I still don't eat a lot of grains (maybe one or two servings a day if any), so it's possible that's why my money isn't going further .
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#17 Old 06-06-2016, 05:00 PM
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Buy things like miso, tofu, etc. at your local Asian market - much cheaper than at the grocery store.

This is my favorite nutritional yeast: http://smile.amazon.com/Frontier-Nut...rch_detailpage I use it very generously, and end up ordering it every 4-6 months. I would think that, for the average vegan who is cooking for one, it would last close to a year.
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#18 Old 06-06-2016, 05:17 PM
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As far as cost... I find that I'm spending way more? Especially since everything I consume is fast to spoil, so I can't buy one of something and keep it forever! Considering I was already spending lots on veggies and fruits, now I'm subsidizing cheese and eggs with miso, nut cheeses, and nutritional yeast, which are all pretty pricey. Oh, and I loooove nuts, and make macadamia nut Cream Cheeze, which costs about twice as much as dairy cream cheese! I still don't eat a lot of grains (maybe one or two servings a day if any), so it's possible that's why my money isn't going further .

Asian and Hispanic markets have very good prices on fresh produce.

Definitely true - nuts, miso and nutritional yeast can be pricey. Because nuts and miso are very high in fat and salt, respectively, it's a good idea to use them in small amounts anyway.

For sandwiches and burgers, using mustard really curbed my cheese cravings. Mustard is my favorite condiment. I even use it as a dip for raw carrots sometimes.

For pizza, tangy toppings (like marinated green olives or artichoke hearts) can help to satisfy cheese cravings. These can also be pricey, but they're so intensely flavored that you don't need that many.

Instead of cream cheese dip, you might enjoy hummus. Hummus is so popular with vegans that it has become a point of humor. You can find very inexpensive hummus at Trader Joe's.

You're right on about grains. Beans and grains are what make vegan diets so affordable. http://www.mercyforanimals.org/files/VSG.pdf





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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

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#19 Old 06-06-2016, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Nietzscha View Post
Wow, thanks for your insight. It's good to know that one person really can make a difference! I'm hoping to feel better as well. I've become accustomed to doing 4 days a week vegan (Monday through Thursday), and I always feel a difference mid-week. It's one of the many reasons I'm wanting to switch over completely. I've mentioned in another thread that I'm struggling with depression, and I find that I just feel a lot better when I've been vegan for days at a time, and that feeling of "better" is irreplaceable!

Sadly, the hubby won't respond to health arguments, at least not now. (And I'm not really trying to convert him anyway, just trying to show him that my way of living won't impede his too much; that's really what he's frustrated at!). He's one of those people who'd "rather be fat and happy" than "worry about what [he] eats all the time." The problem is, I know that "fat and happy" doesn't exist. I was there. I was once 50lbs heavier and was miserable (I'm still about 20 lbs overweight). My father has battled diabetes, two heart surgeries, and multiple issues with his intestines. He is NOT fat AND happy.

As far as cost... I find that I'm spending way more? Especially since everything I consume is fast to spoil, so I can't buy one of something and keep it forever! Considering I was already spending lots on veggies and fruits, now I'm subsidizing cheese and eggs with miso, nut cheeses, and nutritional yeast, which are all pretty pricey. Oh, and I loooove nuts, and make macadamia nut Cream Cheeze, which costs about twice as much as dairy cream cheese! I still don't eat a lot of grains (maybe one or two servings a day if any), so it's possible that's why my money isn't going further .
You might find that you spend more INITIALLY as you end up using commercial substitutes for a lot of things, but after a while experimenting with vegan food that isn't meant to represent anything, you might find that you don't crave things as much. Also, as far as cream cheeze, macadamia nuts are ridiculously expensive and cashews might be a less expensive alternative to look into.

Grains are definitely important to a vegan diet! There is a reason they're staples around the world, they provide a needed source of calories, carbohydrates, fibre, and trace minerals, as well as some of the b-complex vitamins. If you eat a decent amount of grains throughout the day, they can help make up your protein needs as well.
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#20 Old 06-06-2016, 09:32 PM
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You might find that you spend more INITIALLY as you end up using commercial substitutes for a lot of things, but after a while experimenting with vegan food that isn't meant to represent anything, you might find that you don't crave things as much. Also, as far as cream cheeze, macadamia nuts are ridiculously expensive and cashews might be a less expensive alternative to look into.
Agree with all of this ^^ Initially too, you have probably been replacing pantry staples, so that could be part of the cost factor - I know it was for us. Since those items tend to last a long time though, the grocery bills are a bit more manageable ^_^
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#21 Old 06-07-2016, 09:00 AM
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Why is your food intake even on the table for debate? That was rhetorical; you share a kitchen. Between the two of you, are you the cook, or mostly the cook?

You’ve just pulled a switcheroo on the man who married you. Am I right that he married a woman who would broil him a steak any time he wanted, and that now he’s married to someone who doesn’t even want animal products in the home the two of you share? Is he afraid that if you’re vegan he has to be vegan too?

Figure out what you’re okay with that gives him the ability to live as he wants, and he can figure out if he’s okay doing most of his own food shopping and cooking from here on out. If living as he wants means having you cook meat for him, life as he knew it is over. If that’s the real fear, that’s the part you need to address.
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#22 Old 06-07-2016, 03:59 PM
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For a time, my signature on VB was a quote from Stanislaw Lec: "Every snowflake in an avalanche pleads, 'Not Guilty'. "

I think vegan convenience foods are very tasty, but you're right- they are expensive. It sometimes takes a bit of fussing to make grains and beans taste good, but they are usually both cheaper and healthier than those convenience foods.
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#23 Old 06-07-2016, 05:23 PM
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Why is your food intake even on the table for debate? That was rhetorical; you share a kitchen. Between the two of you, are you the cook, or mostly the cook?

You’ve just pulled a switcheroo on the man who married you. Am I right that he married a woman who would broil him a steak any time he wanted, and that now he’s married to someone who doesn’t even want animal products in the home the two of you share? Is he afraid that if you’re vegan he has to be vegan too?

Figure out what you’re okay with that gives him the ability to live as he wants, and he can figure out if he’s okay doing most of his own food shopping and cooking from here on out. If living as he wants means having you cook meat for him, life as he knew it is over. If that’s the real fear, that’s the part you need to address.
Actually, he's always been the cook in the family, I always considered myself horrible at it (although since I went vegetarian I've gotten much better). Since we don't have kids, we've always pretty much eaten whatever we felt like for dinner. Now he finds he no longer has the fun of cooking us gourmet meals that we can both enjoy. Cooking used to be a big hobby of his, but he says he's not really that interested in learning vegan cooking (although he's come up with quite a few nice things for me). He has also lost the desire to cook for himself, since if it has animal products in it, I can't enjoy it with him. He's actually been pretty supportive of my vegetarianism, and even alright with my veganism until this argument came out of nowhere (and actually hasn't come up since). I just didn't know how to respond to it! He was so sincere about feeling like we're both losing quality of life over this decision (and I can understand his point of view!)

As for the expensive stuff, I think Symondezyn hit the nail on the head. I think I'm buying what I consider to be staples. Once that dies down I'll figure out what I use regularly, and replace only those things (Also, I've tried cashew cream sauces/cheezes and their not very good to me. Some of the cooked ones are alright, but Macadamia nuts make such delicious dishes!!). I only eat a serving or two of nuts a day, but they dwindle fast! Most of what I cook is pretty simplistic. Fruits in the morning, big salad and homemade oil-free dressing for lunch, an apple for snack, nuts for snacks, and then a small meal for dinner that sometimes involves real cooking (but usually something quick like tonight's microwaved baked potato with hearts of palm, couple teaspoons of miso, and red peppers that I roasted over the weekend)!
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#24 Old 06-07-2016, 05:58 PM
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The thing about viewing veganism as diminished quality of life is that your husband doesn’t get to define your experience for you. If you miss animal products so much it makes you miserable, yes your quality of life takes a hit and you either cave to it or deal with it. As it would be for your husband if he were the one doing it, which he’s not. But if the thought of using animal products makes you unhappy, the only way back from that grief is to step off them. If you feel as well nourished as you did before, and it’s no longer on your conscience that animals are getting screwed-over in your name, that would deliver an elevated quality of life.

He might not get this or believe it now, but a gourmet who becomes vegan doesn’t stop being a gourmet. The gourmet just focuses on an altered set of ingredients, using the same herbs, spices, vegetables, grains and oils as before. Meats are bland until they’ve cooked in flavorful spices or sauces. That’s why they say everything tastes like chicken. Chicken tastes like whatever it just marinated in. So does whatever you’ll be eating instead now.

On Saturday, my daughter (an omnivore) cooked me two of the most fragrant, flavorful, well textured burgers I’ve ever had in my life, and they were made from black beans and grains and onions and spices. Held together as well as beef ever did, and she didn’t need an egg binder to make it happen. You work with different stuff, you get the same kick out of the results.
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#25 Old 06-07-2016, 06:23 PM
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Regarding the point about sacrificing your quality of life just for the cows, you might point out that there is no sacrifice whatsoever. With the cornucopia of varied and delicious and super healthy vegan foods, he is the one making a sacrifice by eating animal foods day in and day out.
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#26 Old 06-08-2016, 07:44 AM
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Regarding the point about sacrificing your quality of life just for the cows, you might point out that there is no sacrifice whatsoever. With the cornucopia of varied and delicious and super healthy vegan foods, he is the one making a sacrifice by eating animal foods day in and day out.
That's so true! I almost feel like a whole new person (in a good way!). AND cows/goats/pigs/chickens etc. aren't sacrificing their lives for my entertainment! Win Win by my book! X-D
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#27 Old 06-08-2016, 08:31 AM
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That's so true! I almost feel like a whole new person (in a good way!). AND cows/goats/pigs/chickens etc. aren't sacrificing their lives for my entertainment! Win Win by my book! X-D


Doesn't it seem to you that this topic will ultimately need to be discussed completely and calmly with your husband (maybe even with a relationship therapist)? Your husband now knows that you deeply disapprove of what he eats - a very personal thing. If he wants to eat meat, he feels like he has to hide it. As a vegan, I agree with your beliefs, but this must be hard on you two. Shared meals should be relaxing and intimate, and now they've become a point of conflict.


.
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_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/
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#28 Old 06-08-2016, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Nietzscha View Post
Actually, he's always been the cook in the family, I always considered myself horrible at it (although since I went vegetarian I've gotten much better). Since we don't have kids, we've always pretty much eaten whatever we felt like for dinner. Now he finds he no longer has the fun of cooking us gourmet meals that we can both enjoy. Cooking used to be a big hobby of his, but he says he's not really that interested in learning vegan cooking (although he's come up with quite a few nice things for me). He has also lost the desire to cook for himself, since if it has animal products in it, I can't enjoy it with him. He's actually been pretty supportive of my vegetarianism, and even alright with my veganism until this argument came out of nowhere (and actually hasn't come up since). I just didn't know how to respond to it! He was so sincere about feeling like we're both losing quality of life over this decision (and I can understand his point of view!)

As for the expensive stuff, I think Symondezyn hit the nail on the head. I think I'm buying what I consider to be staples. Once that dies down I'll figure out what I use regularly, and replace only those things (Also, I've tried cashew cream sauces/cheezes and their not very good to me. Some of the cooked ones are alright, but Macadamia nuts make such delicious dishes!!). I only eat a serving or two of nuts a day, but they dwindle fast! Most of what I cook is pretty simplistic. Fruits in the morning, big salad and homemade oil-free dressing for lunch, an apple for snack, nuts for snacks, and then a small meal for dinner that sometimes involves real cooking (but usually something quick like tonight's microwaved baked potato with hearts of palm, couple teaspoons of miso, and red peppers that I roasted over the weekend)!
Speaking from the cook's POV, since becoming vegan, I actually find i enjoy cooking MORE!! It's all about your perspective - I see it as a creative challenge: where animal products used to be I've replaced them with so many other interesting things... vegan food can absolutely be colourful, flavourful and exciting with playful textures and spices; it's just a matter of being open minded towards trying new things... and vegan baking and ice cream is the bomb!

If your hubby is the main cook, may I humbly suggest trying out some vegan cookbooks together? I'm the solo cook in our home, but my omni husband LOVES the recipes from Thug Kitchen, and loves going through it and picking out stuff for me to try making. It might be a fun way to bring you closer together, trying out some vegan cooking as a couple ^_^
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#29 Old 06-08-2016, 10:18 AM
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In other words, if I (one person) stops eating meat, the meat factories will still make the same amount of meat, and therefore my "carbon footprint" won't really diminish, because they aren't capable of adjusting how many animals are slaughtered based on just one person.
For the sake of argument, let's assume that your husband is correct in this argument. However, even he has to admit that, at some number of veg*ns, there is in fact a reduction in the number of animals who are slaughtered.

The problem with his argument is that, if everyone used his reasoning, that number of veg*ns is never reached, because no one goes veg*n.

For example, I guess I could argue that I might as well buy child porn; after all, that's not going to affect the child porn industry sufficiently to make a difference as to whether or not child porn is produced, or how much of it is produced.

See the problem with that reasoning? It's twofold. Firstly, it ignores the cumulative effect that X number of individuals have. Secondly, it ignores the underlying ethical choice(s) with which each of us are faced.
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Last edited by Beautiful Joe; 06-08-2016 at 08:38 PM.
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#30 Old 06-08-2016, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nietzscha View Post
Actually, he's always been the cook in the family, I always considered myself horrible at it (although since I went vegetarian I've gotten much better). Since we don't have kids, we've always pretty much eaten whatever we felt like for dinner. Now he finds he no longer has the fun of cooking us gourmet meals that we can both enjoy. Cooking used to be a big hobby of his, but he says he's not really that interested in learning vegan cooking (although he's come up with quite a few nice things for me). He has also lost the desire to cook for himself, since if it has animal products in it, I can't enjoy it with him. He's actually been pretty supportive of my vegetarianism, and even alright with my veganism until this argument came out of nowhere (and actually hasn't come up since). I just didn't know how to respond to it! He was so sincere about feeling like we're both losing quality of life over this decision (and I can understand his point of view!)

As for the expensive stuff, I think Symondezyn hit the nail on the head. I think I'm buying what I consider to be staples. Once that dies down I'll figure out what I use regularly, and replace only those things (Also, I've tried cashew cream sauces/cheezes and their not very good to me. Some of the cooked ones are alright, but Macadamia nuts make such delicious dishes!!). I only eat a serving or two of nuts a day, but they dwindle fast! Most of what I cook is pretty simplistic. Fruits in the morning, big salad and homemade oil-free dressing for lunch, an apple for snack, nuts for snacks, and then a small meal for dinner that sometimes involves real cooking (but usually something quick like tonight's microwaved baked potato with hearts of palm, couple teaspoons of miso, and red peppers that I roasted over the weekend)!
If he's a gourmand, consider this (coming from a vegan one):

There are only so many ways to flavor animal products, generally a gourmand only reaches for a limited number of animal milks, meats, and flavorings. Diverting into game and less-common fish is incredibly expensive, and often the taste differences aren't major enough to warrant the expense.

However, as a vegan, there are literally HUNDREDS of varietals of tomatoes alone, tons of different strains of barley for beermaking or wheat for baking, thousands of different strains of beans, each with a totally unique flavor. Working with these combinations, whether you order from seed catalogues and grow them or buy them at farmers markets and organic grocers, can yield incredibly satisfying results. Even when talking about vegan proteins, there are more recipes for seitan out there than I can count if you aren't gluten free, and if you are, the entire cuisines of Japan, China, and Korea have a rich history of Buddhist vegetarian cuisine to draw from for tofu and tempeh, and that's just the traditional recipe set.

I highly recommend checking out Artisan Vegan Pantry, Artisan Vegan Cheese, and The Now and Zen Epicure (the link is to her website, which has a bunch of recipes on it as well), all three of which are by Miyoko Schinner. I met her in person, and between her voice in her cookbooks and her almost religious zeal in person over taste and tradition, there is no one I would recommend more to introduce your hubby to the joys of haute vegan cuisine. There are also blogs like Minimalist Baker, The Vegan Gourmet, Hell Yeah It's Vegan, and Veggie and the Beast to introduce him to free recipes that are absolutely fantastic. The Complete Guide to Vegan Food Substitutions can teach him all about how to make his old favorite recipes using new ingredients, and if you check out the link to my blog in my signature, I have a guide to vegan milks and what to use them for in cooking. There's also The Vegetarian Flavor Bible, both of the authors are vegan and focus almost entirely on vegan ingredients, with cautions on milk, eggs, and honey that the authors are providing taste profiles under protest.

It's a new set of skills, but if you both look forward to it as an adventure and use kitchen time as bonding time, I'm sure you can get through this. I'm sure he'd be more willing to cook if you cooked with him and used the time to learn as well! My hubby was really reluctant to even consider Vegetarianism, but I lured him into the kitchen with the fantastic smells and array of tastes with my food, and the rest is history.
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