Invalid arguments for veganism - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 03-27-2016, 01:15 PM
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Arrow Invalid arguments for veganism

I've tried to spread veganism on some other forums and I've made some arguments they've shown me to be invalid. So, don't make the same mistakes in your discussions.

1) If everyone had to kill to eat meat, everyone would be a vegetarian.
This might seem valid to vegans and vegetarians, but it's not. Think of it this way: there are people who hunt as a hobby, there are still some people who do the animal sacrifices…

2) Try telling that to a cow at a slaughterhouse. (or, as I tried to explain it later, food-animals can be considered judges on how ethical a society is since they are the most vulnerable members of the society)
This one will more than likely get you ridiculed. I got what I think is a perfectly valid response: "So, cows have somehow become greater experts in ethics than any philosopher saying that eating meat is morally justifiable? Come on!"

3) You really make me cry when you say something like that (like, saying that animals don't even have a right to live according to the law).
"That only proves that you are stupid."

4) You can get Vitamin D from mushrooms.
Actually, if you are deficient, you have to take about 2000 IU a day. White button mushrooms have only 536 UI in 100g. That means that you would have to eat 400 g of them a day. This is not a good advice, right? So, before making such claims, actually do some research, please!

5) And where do you think the herbivorous animals get that (Vitamin B12, calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, protein…)
"I guess from grass, and we can't eat grass, you idiot."

6) Cambridge declaration on animal consciousness.
They have countless arguments to the contrary, and, trust me, you will just seem uneducated about philosophy and that won't get you anywhere.

7) Linking to the experts favoring your position.
They are going to claim they are also a part of the conspiracy.

8) Plants you eat don't try to defend themselves, but animals do.
I wouldn't have written this if I had spent only a few seconds of thinking. Roses and nettles are used to make tea, yet it is hard to argue it's immoral, right?

9) Using the words like "holocaust", "rape" or"murder" when describing what happens to the food-animals.
They are just not going to take you seriously, trust me.

10) Look, I realize that some animals, unfortunately, have to eat meat to be healthy, but we don't have to!
When people you are debating with think we actually have to…

11) Vegan body builders.
Again, they are going to claim they are also a part of the conspiracy.

12) Saying that consequences to the sentient beings are the only thing that matters when judging how ethical something is.
Be ready to give a sensical response to questions such as: "Why is then it wrong to destroy the cultural heritage?"

13) Being very wordy when explaining why some their argument is invalid.
You are simply going to be cited as "blah blah blah" and be accused of being a part of the conspiracy.

And I guess there are many more such only seemingly-valid arguments for veganism. Do you know any?
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#2 Old 03-27-2016, 05:53 PM
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A stupid one I hear a lot is "People don't like the taste of meat, they only like it because of the seasonings that are added to it".
Believe me, I used to actually like the taste of meat when I ate it, and the only thing I added to it was a little salt. I'm sure there are others who are the same.

"We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form." - William Ralphe Inge

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#3 Old 03-27-2016, 08:50 PM
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You can't argue with conspiracy theorists - it's a waste of time. I think it's better to spend our time offering support and education to people who are already interested in becoming vegetarian, or who are having trouble with their vegetarianism.

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#4 Old 03-27-2016, 11:48 PM
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When you try to spread veganism on forums, there will always be conspiracy theorists.

And if you say that veganism is going to solve the worlds hunger, be sure to be able to give a coherent response to: "How exactly is elliminating farmed animals going to make the food any cheaper for the poor?" I think that a correct response is that the plant food is given to those who offer more money for it. Today those are, well, rich people who raise a lot of animals. But when you eliminate them, then the poor will be ones offering the most money for that food. What do you think?

Last edited by Teo123; 03-27-2016 at 11:49 PM. Reason: spelling
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#5 Old 03-28-2016, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teo123 View Post
When you try to spread veganism on forums, there will always be conspiracy theorists.

And if you say that veganism is going to solve the worlds hunger, be sure to be able to give a coherent response to: "How exactly is elliminating farmed animals going to make the food any cheaper for the poor?" I think that a correct response is that the plant food is given to those who offer more money for it. Today those are, well, rich people who raise a lot of animals. But when you eliminate them, then the poor will be ones offering the most money for that food. What do you think?
It takes a lot more crops to feed the animals than if the crops had just been fed to the humans who need food.

Even way back in '97 they knew this...


http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/...-livestock-eat

"If all the grain currently fed to livestock in the United States were consumed directly by people, the number of people who could be fed would be nearly 800 million," David Pimentel, professor of ecology in Cornell University's College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, reported at the July 24-26 meeting of the Canadian Society of Animal Science in Montreal. Or, if those grains were exported, it would boost the U.S. trade balance by $80 billion a year, Pimentel estimated."
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#6 Old 03-28-2016, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Teo123 View Post
When you try to spread veganism on forums, there will always be conspiracy theorists.

And if you say that veganism is going to solve the worlds hunger, be sure to be able to give a coherent response to: "How exactly is elliminating farmed animals going to make the food any cheaper for the poor?" I think that a correct response is that the plant food is given to those who offer more money for it. Today those are, well, rich people who raise a lot of animals. But when you eliminate them, then the poor will be ones offering the most money for that food. What do you think?
Farm animals raised for food also require shelter, veterinary care (or at the least someone who can administer antibiotics, hormones, or deliver babies etc), breeding, food, water, and space. Growing plants requires far less water and space, and while plants have needs of their own, they are nowhere near as intensive as raising an animal.

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#7 Old 03-28-2016, 05:19 AM
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I know all of that, but I was debating with people who have been told that the reason there are starving people in the world is not because there is not enough food but because the poor people don't have enough money to buy food.

Yeah, I started a thread about veganism on some other forum and behaved like a complete idiot. Now I feel so bad about it. I have probably turned some people away from veganism by that. Could you please join that discussion to show people that not all vegans are like that?
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/f...0#.VvkSv-l31Ec
My nickname there is FlatEarthDenial. Feel free to criticize me.

Last edited by Teo123; 03-28-2016 at 05:21 AM.
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#8 Old 03-28-2016, 07:19 AM
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Flatearthsociety? Are you really serious??????????
The first time someone I clicked a link to that site I laughed my head off thinking it was from the Onion- a very well done parody site. When I realized it was a serious site I went cold.
Kinda like when you think you're listening to Tina Fey, then look up and find it's actually Sarah Palin
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#9 Old 03-28-2016, 07:31 AM
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Well, I guess there are serious people there. And just by convincing one person to go vegan, we will probably save at least thousand animals. An average meat-eater eats 5000 animals in their lifetime.

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#10 Old 03-28-2016, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Teo123 View Post
I know all of that, but I was debating with people who have been told that the reason there are starving people in the world is not because there is not enough food but because the poor people don't have enough money to buy food.

Yeah, I started a thread about veganism on some other forum and behaved like a complete idiot. Now I feel so bad about it. I have probably turned some people away from veganism by that. Could you please join that discussion to show people that not all vegans are like that?
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/f...0#.VvkSv-l31Ec
My nickname there is FlatEarthDenial. Feel free to criticize me.
Please stay away from there, you can't educate those who oppose education.
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#11 Old 03-28-2016, 07:45 AM
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But most of them aren't flat-earthers. They don't oppose education. They simply strongly believe what their society has been telling them about the nutrition. And since I behaved like an idiot there, their belief is now even stronger.

Last edited by Teo123; 03-28-2016 at 07:48 AM.
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#12 Old 03-28-2016, 09:53 AM
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I'm sorry to hear this, Ted! I hope you don't think it's your fault- judging from their responses, clearly most of them were just jerks anyway!
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#13 Old 03-28-2016, 01:04 PM
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Look at my older posts there. I claimed to be a flat earther and rejected every single of their arguments either with straw-mans or with dishonest rhetorics. Of course they now have a very bad opinion about me and about veganism in general. Please, show them that not all vegans are like that.
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#14 Old 03-28-2016, 03:36 PM
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Look at my older posts there. I claimed to be a flat earther and rejected every single of their arguments either with straw-mans or with dishonest rhetorics. Of course they now have a very bad opinion about me and about veganism in general. Please, show them that not all vegans are like that.
Why do you expect others to clean up a mess you made?
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#15 Old 03-28-2016, 04:31 PM
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look at my older posts there. I claimed to be a flat earther and rejected every single of their arguments either with straw-mans or with dishonest rhetorics. Of course they now have a very bad opinion about me and about veganism in general. Please, show them that not all vegans are like that.
stay outta there!!!
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#16 Old 03-28-2016, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jessandreia View Post
A stupid one I hear a lot is "People don't like the taste of meat, they only like it because of the seasonings that are added to it".
Believe me, I used to actually like the taste of meat when I ate it, and the only thing I added to it was a little salt. I'm sure there are others who are the same.
I had some fish tacos about 2 months after becoming veg*n.....just to check it out.

I tasted the spices, and the fish tasted like cardboard.

There are 1000 reasons not to eat veg*n or vegan. Just ask the meat eaters....they'll tell ya!

All animals should be respected & should have the ability to lead a natural & enjoyable life. This means not eating them, or abusing them in any way.
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#17 Old 03-28-2016, 07:58 PM
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I know all of that, but I was debating with people who have been told that the reason there are starving people in the world is not because there is not enough food but because the poor people don't have enough money to buy food.
.
The hunger situation is sad. According to the United Nations World Food Programme, the world already produces enough food to feed everyone. The primary causes of hunger are (1) poverty, (2) lack of investment in agriculture, (3) climate and weather, (4) war and displacement, (5) unstable markets, and (6) food wastage: https://www.wfp.org/hunger/causes

In capitalism, products (including food) are preferentially sold to those who can pay the most money. If I'm a large landowner in Colombia, and I have the choice to (1) grow and sell rice to local people, who can only afford to pay 10 cents per pound, or (2) grow and sell coffee to Americans, who are willing to pay 10 DOLLARS per pound, what am I likely to do?

Hunger and starvation are caused by human greed and negligence, not by lack of food.
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http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 03-28-2016 at 08:24 PM.
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#18 Old 03-28-2016, 08:12 PM
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Ted,

As a fellow vegan, I have experienced this kind of opposition.

According to Faunalytics (formerly the Humane Research Council), 84% of people who try to be vegetarian end up abandoning it: https://faunalytics.org/a-summary-of-faunalytics-study-of-current-and-former-vegetarians-and-vegans/

If we can help more of those people to STAY vegetarian, then we could make an enormous difference. That's a primary function of VeggieBoards and other vegetarian forums. We vegetarians need well-substantiated information about vegetarian nutrition, and we need good social support.

You will have better success if you help people who are already receptive to being vegetarian. You could try spending time on animal compassion websites, or on dog / cat rescue websites, or on Eastern spirituality websites. Many people are against animal cruelty, at least in principle. If you casually mention that you are vegetarian (and leave it at that), you may find that people come to YOU, asking for help. Be sure to be ready with links to reputable vegetarian nutrition websites.

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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 03-28-2016 at 08:21 PM.
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#19 Old 03-28-2016, 08:16 PM
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Valid arguments:

Factory farming

Human disease/food poisoning

Environmental concerns (direct pollution, land loss, global warming)

Human starvation (the problem of solving it - veganism much more accessible and affordable than recent GMO projects)

Pesticide ingestion gets lower as you eat lower on the food chain

Health (yes you have to share experts for this, but people will listen to doctors and scientists before they will ethical philosophers)

Also share delicious recipes, don't call people names or use words like genocide, and show encouragement to people who try/reduce.
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#20 Old 03-29-2016, 12:18 PM
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So, you show them your arguments. I can't. If I do it, they won't take it seriously because I've always been behaving like an idiot there. Seriously, I am one of the few on that forum who have an entire thread against them.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/f...0#.VvrGWOl31Ec
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#21 Old 03-29-2016, 12:39 PM
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So, you show them your arguments. I can't. If I do it, they won't take it seriously because I've always been behaving like an idiot there. Seriously, I am one of the few on that forum who have an entire thread against them.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/f...0#.VvrGWOl31Ec
Again, if you intentionally acted badly, why on earth (flat or otherwise!) would you expect anyone to bail you out?

Further, IMO you are taking yourself far too seriously.
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#22 Old 03-29-2016, 02:02 PM
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It's not like I intentionally acted badly, I just simply wasn't thinking about what I could do to the perception of veganism of those people.
How do you mean I am taking myself far too seriously? I am probably the only contact with veganism these people have ever had. Why don't you be another and a better one?
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#23 Old 03-29-2016, 03:34 PM
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It's not like I intentionally acted badly, I just simply wasn't thinking about what I could do to the perception of veganism of those people.
How do you mean I am taking myself far too seriously? I am probably the only contact with veganism these people have ever had. Why don't you be another and a better one?

This isn't a good use of your time, or anyone else's time. It futile to reason with people who are irrational and paranoid.


It's a much better use of everyone's time to help people who are receptive to vegetarianism.

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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
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http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 03-29-2016 at 06:22 PM.
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#24 Old 03-29-2016, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Teo123 View Post
It's not like I intentionally acted badly, I just simply wasn't thinking about what I could do to the perception of veganism of those people.
How do you mean I am taking myself far too seriously? I am probably the only contact with veganism these people have ever had. Why don't you be another and a better one?
Why would you choose to post in that crazy forum?
The only thing you did wrong was to try and educate the wrong crowd.

I understand you're from Croatia, and don't know much about life there, but I'm sure you can find more pleasant people.

You couldn't pay me enough to go to that wacky forum (although I'm open to offers )

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#25 Old 03-29-2016, 06:16 PM
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Hi Teo,

I wouldn't worry about it. It's not like you were speaking to the United Nations or something. You were speaking to a very small group of people that nobody takes seriously anyway. I would just forget about it and move on.


.

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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 03-29-2016 at 06:21 PM.
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#26 Old 03-30-2016, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Teo123 View Post
It's not like I intentionally acted badly, I just simply wasn't thinking about what I could do to the perception of veganism of those people.
How do you mean I am taking myself far too seriously? I am probably the only contact with veganism these people have ever had. Why don't you be another and a better one?
I wouldn't bother because it's a forum that believes the earth is flat. If you're that concerned, just make another identity on there as a different vegan.
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#27 Old 03-31-2016, 08:46 AM
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It's not like I intentionally acted badly, I just simply wasn't thinking about what I could do to the perception of veganism of those people.
How do you mean I am taking myself far too seriously? I am probably the only contact with veganism these people have ever had. Why don't you be another and a better one?
I think you are taking yourself far too seriously if you think you can go on a flat earth discussion board and sway them eithr to or away from vaganism by your posts there. It's simply not going to happen. And as for the thread wanting you banned from that board - I saw just one member advocating for that, with the few other posts in that thread disagreeing.

IMO, we all have a responsibility to use well reasoned and factually correct statements when discussing vegetarianism and/or veganism, but you've now learned that lesson.

I doubt that anyone on here wants to go to the flat earth discussion board to advocate for veganism - it would be a total waste of time and effort.
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#28 Old 04-05-2016, 07:46 AM
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I think you are taking yourself far too seriously if you think you can go on a flat earth discussion board and sway them eithr to or away from vaganism by your posts there. It's simply not going to happen. And as for the thread wanting you banned from that board - I saw just one member advocating for that, with the few other posts in that thread disagreeing.
Look, I posted most of those idiotic and insulting things AstronomyMaster complained about in the thread about veganism. Don't you think it has turned some people away from veganism?
Quote:
IMO, we all have a responsibility to use well reasoned and factually correct statements when discussing vegetarianism and/or veganism, but you've now learned that lesson.
Yeah. At least I didn't do it on Youtube.
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I doubt that anyone on here wants to go to the flat earth discussion board to advocate for veganism - it would be a total waste of time and effort.
Let's wait. At least that forum is very funny, right? I mean, it is a part of The Flat Earth Society.
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#29 Old 04-05-2016, 04:06 PM
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Look, I posted most of those idiotic and insulting things AstronomyMaster complained about in the thread about veganism. Don't you think it has turned some people away from veganism?
Flat earth is full of idiocy and insults. You simply provided troll food.

Why,why, why did you go there? that's the thing that bothers me, not that you didn't represent vegans
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Let's wait. At least that forum is very funny, right? I mean, it is a part of The Flat Earth Society.
No, it's not funny at all. I clicked on a link thinking it was funny, but that was because I thought it was a satire site. when I realized they were dead serious i was quite shaken up.
It's disgusting. You can't reason with people like that.
You need to find places where people are more open minded, intellectual. Don't try and change minds, just offer rational ideas and tips
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#30 Old 04-06-2016, 07:16 AM
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Why,why, why did you go there?
Because it was fun. I was once a Flat Earther myself and I wanted to talk with other Flat Earthers about things that interest me. But when I became a Round Earhter again (by being shown that their arguments for the Earth being flat were wrong), I felt guilty for what I was doing (that I've turned some people away from veganism). But now I don't think that's such a big deal. I mean, there are vegans who behave idiotic on Youtube, and that's far worse, right?
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