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#61 Old 03-20-2016, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Thalassa4 View Post
I'm sorry but I don't share your world view.
I hope it's all right that I re-formatted your posts. Breaking up the paragraphs a bit at a time just made it much easier for to address some of your comments. If I took anything out of context by re-editing the way it was originally written it wasn't intentional.

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Donald Watson created the term vegan to mean dietary restrictions as a "non dairy vegetarian" so again I don't see the problem with it being used in the dietary sense to succinct.
Watson started with diet; the realization that along with meat, the dairy and egg industry was also cruel. Thus blossomed the word "Vegan". After which, he realized there was much more too the cruelty of animals than simply what was being eaten. It ended with changing his lifestyle, and this was the definition he promoted.

Of course, what you eat is the obvious place for many people to start, but we're talking about a man who gave the word its very meaning, and this man wanted peace for everything that lived, not just what was on his plate.

The problem with saying dietary vegan for convenience is that there is a more accurate word for it: plant-based. I think, possibly the root of this dilemma is that you are using vegan as an adjective to describe the way someone eats. Which is fine I describe things as vegan all the time. But in this context, I use it as a noun. I'm speaking of the idea, the philosophy, the person. Eating a vegan soup doesn't make a vegan person, essentially.

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Yes there definitely should be basic perameters for the word vegan (for example vegans don't eat fish or drink cows milk) but being a dietary vegan covers huge ground in terms of preventing animal cruelty and promoting environmental sustainability...I'm a results minded person, rather than a philosophical purist. I would see one of the main problems with a dietary vegan is if they still went out and bought leather. But vegans can still eat honey or sugar or drink alcohol (I personally think honey isn't ok, for environmental reasons).
Definite basic perimeters of vegan doesn't stop with food. Let's take this into a hypothetical situation for a moment. All humans have no desire to eat animal products. In fact, let's say for a moment that eating meat is about as easy as eating genuine leather and any liquids taste like sulfur smells. So we, as a species, don't do it anymore essentially making everyone in the world a plant-based, dietary vegan; a genuine herbivore. In that aspect we have taken away the need to use vegan as an adjective in relation to foods. There would no label on foods, basically. How many people, would still be vegans?

How many animal products are used while the meat is left unused? For example, animal products in "fashion": fur, pelts, leather, wool, silk, feathers. There is still mandatory animal testing. Animals still get exploited for entertainment, dog fighting, elephants, zoos, aquariums, hunting. Not to mention the small industries that might still breed specifically for the byproducts we currently get from the food industry because there are so many 'convenient' uses for bones, fur, hides, fat, and even the meat--regardless of if humans eat meat, plenty of other animals still would.

I never said that omitting (or even reducing) animal products didn't help. In fact, I've consistently said the opposite, but those results only take you so far. And this still doesn't even cover the fact that, in my original post, the people I initially mentioned are not even 'dietary vegans'. They simply eat like a vegan person would, mostly... or sometimes. Hence, yes eating a cheeseburger does not make you vegan. Plant-based, possibly.

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the truth is the vast majority of vegans are probably about 99% vegan, because no one is perfect, whether it's through accidentally buying a grooming product or eating sugar processed with bone fragments
Of course it's not possible to be perfect and I'm not advocating perfect. I know fair and well that it's not obtainable, but all of the aforementioned non-food items aren't essential to survive. We can live without animal fashion, animal testing, and the exploitation of animal entertainment. It's not a question of accidentally buying a product. It's the knowledge that there is animal products in an item, and still buying it. Which is the same exact example I've used from the very beginning of my first post to this one now.

That is the difference between someone caring (vegan) and someone who doesn't care (not vegan) which is NOT the same as someone who is careless (a vegan making a mistake or many mistakes).

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I don't see the problem with calling someone a "dietary vegan" and no I don't think they're a hypocrite.
What is the difference between beef and leather? There isn't one they are both dead cow. What is the difference between cheese and paint with casein? They have both caused a demand for milk which has harmful consequences. But what is the difference between a foundation that is vegan and cruelty free and a foundation that has animal products and tests on animals? It goes without explanation.

A person is incorrect to say they're a pacifist while going hunting.
A person is incorrect to say they're environmentalists while littering on the street.
A person is incorrect to say they're celibate when they're still having intercourse.
A person is incorrect to say they're a vegan when they still contribute to the cruelty of animals.

A person who is incorrect but does not know it is ignorant. They simply do not have the knowledge, and should be educated. That message is in all of my posts no matter how I re-word it, it hasn't changed at any point. A person who says they are 'whatever-noun-best-fits-here' but already knows they are incorrect and does nothing to change their actions is a hypocrite. They are walking contradictions and we cannot rewrite that definition for convenience. What they say and what they do are not compatible. Hypocrisy and Hypocrite are both nouns, not adjectives. I used it because it fit in my original post.

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I honestly think people with your mindset push people away from veganism, or plant based diets. I think it would be counterproductive and cruel to be technical about it, again as I said in my other post, pushing people away from the effort they are making.
It's counterproductive on both ends depending from what prospective you approach the subject. It's all in a matter of approach and the response depends on a their personality. There are people out there who are rude and aggressive and who do create negative controversy causing people want to avoid veganism and all that has to do with it. There are also people who view the aggression and blunt rudeness as passion, and those people sometimes respond well to that kind of thing.

But not everything has to be an aggressive confrontation, particularly since this is a rather delicate subject to many people.

Educate not berate. If someone lacks knowledge, I'm willing to share what I do know, and if I don't know something I encourage people to seek out the knowledge for themselves if they like. I've never been rude or ugly. I've never called someone nasty words or used foul language. And I've never met a person who has been offended by being reminded of something. I've been humbled myself when starting out vegan and because of it it has helped me maintain a clear view of how I want and need to live. While sometimes the truth hurts, truth is essential to be honest.

To my omnivore friends who have no wishes to become vegan then I have no need to push and prod at them. I let them be. I can not make anyone feel or do anything, however; when they come to me and proudly say that they cooked a vegan soup, or found out their favourite shampoo is cruelty free, of course I praise them. I never say "that's a start, now do better". BUT if a person came to me and said "I'm going to be a vegan now" only to turn around and ask me "Wanna go to McDonalds", isn't it better to speak up? If people are never educated, reminded, humbled, pushed... where would we be?
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#62 Old 03-20-2016, 11:49 AM
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The problem with saying dietary vegan for convenience is that there is a more accurate word for it: plant-based.

Sorry to be a nerd. But "plant-based" is probably more flexible than "dietary vegan"; the word "based" implies foundations but not totalities, thus "plant-based" eaters can have "cheat days" and still correctly refer to themselves as "plant based"

The much older (but sadly underused) term "strict vegetarian" (a diet which excludes all kinds of flesh, dairy and eggs) exactly and accurately describes what those who use the term "dietary vegan" actually mean.
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#63 Old 03-20-2016, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Spudulika View Post
The problem with saying dietary vegan for convenience is that there is a more accurate word for it: plant-based.

Sorry to be a nerd. But "plant-based" is probably more flexible than "dietary vegan"; the word "based" implies foundations but not totalities, thus "plant-based" eaters can have "cheat days" and still correctly refer to themselves as "plant based"
That was my point.

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The much older (but sadly underused) term "strict vegetarian" (a diet which excludes all kinds of flesh, dairy and eggs) exactly and accurately describes what those who use the term "dietary vegan" actually mean.
True, but I was mostly trying to make a distinction from a person who wishes to live as a vegan vs. a person who only wants to eat like vegans do and how they aren't actually the same. Strict-vegan works as well, but it's not something I hear very often (or ever really have before this forum). I also wonder if plant-based wouldn't be a broader term since inevitably since strict vegetarian would be implied and doesn't have the same kind of ethical weight, if you will, but that's just my thinking through text. Interesting food for thought, though!
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#64 Old 03-20-2016, 02:21 PM
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It seems we're all relating to what we've been accustomed to. In Cleveland it's common to hear plant based diet, for health reasons. Unfortunatly, I've been in painful discussions where doctors use the term vegan incorrectly, causing strife for those who are vegan.
I've had argue that I wasn't vegan if I ate sugar (not because of bone char either), white flour or any processed foods. Vegans don't eat anything but whole plant foods. Attempts of educating on what being vegan means did not help. Leather, silk, wool, testing were all inconsequential and all that was about peta, and animal rights groups.

what is wrong with saying plant based? it is a vegetarian diet, and while some strictly adhere to plants only, most I've come across will have on occasion fish, and not think to exclude by products. they have no reason not to consume gelatin, honey, fish oil, or D3

In fact I remember the old thread we had that started with someone (?) saying it wasn't vegan to eat processed foods. That vegan was about being healthy as you can be. Well, no, it's not. If you're going to criticize a vegan for eating oreos it better be because they might have bone char processed sugar and not because they junk food.

Dr Neal Barnard, Dr. Furhman and others refer to plant based more often than vegan diets, but at least they do refer to plant based eating as dietary
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#65 Old 03-20-2016, 02:23 PM
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I started this thread primarily because I want to be as accurate as possible when writing As you guys have pointed out, the general public isn't all that picky, but lord forbid someone from ecorazzi catch you using the wrong term!

I suppose I may have upset some on this forum because I just realized I'd probably be considered more of an animal rights vegan (I certainly don't claim to have a zero carbon footprint, etc., so perhaps that means I shouldn't call myself an ethical vegan. I merely meant that my veganism is based on ethical beliefs concerning the equality of animals). Funny thing is, I actually don't even like animals that much! (I certainly don't go gaga over photos of cute kittens). I simply believe they have a clear right to live without humans murdering them and exploiting them.
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- Gary L. Francione
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#66 Old 03-20-2016, 02:35 PM
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To me, plant-based doesn't necessarily mean "only plants", just primarily plants, plants "most of the time."

Labels have limited use, in actuality. I have a friend who I've heard say on more than one occasion, "I'm vegan, except I eat fish."

I would suggest people not attach so much value to the label, but to the life. Walk the walk, friends.
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It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore

Last edited by Poppy; 03-20-2016 at 02:38 PM.
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#67 Old 03-21-2016, 01:40 AM
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In fact I remember the old thread we had that started with someone (?) saying it wasn't vegan to eat processed foods.
That was a painful thread. Especially when read together with the thread that argued that meat substitutes/analogs/look-alikes/whatever weren't actually vegan.

I was thinking about those threads myself the other day. I don't see WHY the whole food plant only diet people would want to appropriate the word vegan, since ultraprocessed, sugary foods packed with trans fats and bursting with refined grains (thus simple carbohydrates) can fully qualify as 'vegan', and a vegan can eat them, even gorge on them.

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#68 Old 03-21-2016, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in MPLS View Post
That was a painful thread. Especially when read together with the thread that argued that meat substitutes/analogs/look-alikes/whatever weren't actually vegan.

I was thinking about those threads myself the other day. I don't see WHY the whole food plant only diet people would want to appropriate the word vegan, since ultraprocessed, sugary foods packed with trans fats and bursting with refined grains (thus simple carbohydrates) can fully qualify as 'vegan', and a vegan can eat them, even gorge on them.
What I come across more often than "potential" vegans are the health based whole foodies who identify themselves, and their diet, as vegan. Look up some vegan cookbooks on amazon and you find one star reviews, saying they're not vegan because they use some unhealthy, though truly vegan, ingredients. Even Deva vitamins have been accused as non vegan because of something added (vegan)
It's not the title but the meaning I fear getting lost. I have to fight more ignorance about my diet because of the wfpb fad than i've ever had to say 'I don't eat fish". More people feel vegans now don't eat sweets, wheat, any processed food, processed foods, carbs---but there's no issue with trace ingredients like meat broth, or by products in foods as long they come under the scrutiny of healthy.
In my opinion, it's vegans being pushed around.

And how many here have been just fine with "killing cats to help the native species"? Huh? Or Beyonce eating vegan while wearing skins?

What the heck is so bad about saying your eat plant based, or vegetarian? Why demean the word vegan to a diet that excludes so many foods that are vegan?
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#69 Old 03-21-2016, 09:36 AM
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The thing is that vegans in the real world are all over the map on this one. Vegans tend to be nonconformists and cultural outliers, and trying to get all vegans to agree on semantics is like trying to coordinate an International Council of Cats. I don't identify as vegan, but my practices are far closer to meeting the definitions than most people I meet who do identify as vegan. Like Poppy's friend who's "vegan but eats fish." My favorite personal example is the couple who stayed with us and said "We're vegan, but we're on vacation." Sometimes people's eating habits haven't gelled (and maybe never will) into going completely off animal products, or even completely off meat. I think one important reason for this is that dairy, egg, and slaughterhouse byproducts find their way into more familiar processed foods than the person dreamed of when first deciding to stop buying milk and eggs. And of course people find they get horribly hungry between meals when they haven't gotten used to life without their calorie-dense comfort foods.

Also, Gary Francione has written and said on numerous occasions that the threshold for being considered vegan is to follow a vegan diet. I understand that veganism goes far beyond diet to him, which he says every time he writes or speaks. But in his blog he also writes this:

"Veganism" means at the very least not eating any flesh, dairy, or other animal products. In this sense, "vegan"means "vegan diet."

http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/.../#.Vu_qYce_slI

I'm quoting Francione not because I agree with very much of what he writes (I blame him for the term "ethical vegan"), but because many view him as the public face of abolitionist veganism, which makes him a credible source on this point. I completely understand that he sees a hierarchy among vegans, his fellow abolitionists with him at the top, that he sees the leather-wearing slackers on the bottommost rung of veganism, and that he wants them to start climbing. But if they want to call themselves vegans, this hard-nosed "going vegan is incredibly easy" abolitionist vegan writer is apparently okay with that.

Last edited by Joan Kennedy; 03-21-2016 at 12:55 PM.
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#70 Old 03-26-2016, 08:57 AM
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I have let go of the titles. I have used vegan and plant-based. As long as I don't consume animal products, purchase items that were made from animals I'm good. We all should just take pride in the choice we made and that it is doing great things for the environment and the animals. Share our message, those who are open will listen and maybe they will follow our lead.

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#71 Old 03-29-2016, 09:02 PM
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I call myself vegan because I feel it better explains what I do, as some people do call themselves plant *based* but still eat other foods. And maybe I'm crazy, but I feel like "vegan" does better imply that I do it out of a care for animals- which is true.
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