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#31 Old 03-10-2016, 09:21 PM
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I think I understand where Enthios is coming from...to take that label away from people who put so much effort into it could make them feel like their identity is stripped from them, or at least that's how I would feel. It's an identity thing for some of us. I identify with the vegan philosophy, and aim to live the lifestyle, but maybe I'll be perpetually 'in transition to vegan' because I'm always learning more about it.
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#32 Old 03-11-2016, 12:57 AM
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Vegan or plant-based

I'm not sure I'm following. If someone says, "I follow a vegan diet" or "I eat a plant based diet", that's not the same thing? The vegan diet person is not saying "they are a vegan", just that their diet is. It seems like it would be the same thing with the exception of their reasons for doing so. I would take it to mean the vegan diet person might be doing it for more ethical reasons whereas the plant based diet person is more for health reasons. Would this be accurate?


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#33 Old 03-11-2016, 04:25 AM
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Like many have said it's only a label, I hate the fact we're called vegans based on the fact that we DONT do something. Seems crazy, however, I think using the word vegan as much as possible is helpful in terms of activism. If people keep hearing about it or see it appearing in their social media then it's only going to develop interest and curiosity.
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#34 Old 03-11-2016, 05:15 AM
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I hate, hate, hate it when people describe themselves as "ethical vegans" when they mean they are animal rights vegans as distinct from health vegans or environmental vegans or strict vegetarians or slacker lapse-prone vegetarians.

I don't often cross-post, but I've gone into some detail in other posts about how the ethics of following a vegan diet encompass many, many other things besides animal rights:

There is the reduction of your carbon footprint, there's giving a break to whichever watershed would have been receiving the manure of the chickens and hogs and cattle that aren't being raised for you. There's the health of everyone you cook for if you're calling the shots in your kitchen, and the health of everyone within your sphere of influence. And if you're a health food writer, your sphere of influence can be extremely wide. There's not overtaxing your health care system and disability payment system with all your preventable chronic conditions. There's healing your own heart and getting off the transplant list, as a man in South Bend recently did, saving not only yourself but the patient who gets the heart you would've needed. There's the ethic of eating simply and wasting less so there will be more food to go around, an ethical countermeasure to global food shortage. Applying ethical principles to your food choices impacts not just the animals in the food industry, but everyone and everything on Earth. Good-hearted, intelligent animal rights vegans would never dream of bogarting the "ethical vegan" tiara.

If you combined all the animals used, hurt and killed in the fur trade, zoos, rodeos, puppy mills, military combat, police work, cart pulling, big game hunting, dogfighting rings, circuses, racing circuits and research laboratories, they would be a drop in the ocean of animals bred and fished for slaughter. Animal agriculture is hands-down the mother lode of animal abuse. Cutting out consumption of meat, dairy and eggs does 99 percent as much good as that plus taking on the rest of the vegan lifestyle. Health vegans and environmental vegans are ethical vegans too, no matter what they're wearing on their feet.

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#35 Old 03-11-2016, 08:04 AM
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Who is to say what someone else means when they use vegan as an adjective to describe their diet? I think we over think these word choices. We think if we use just the right words to describe ourselves, other people will instantly get us, but I don't think that's the case. If you want someone to know what kind of vegan you are, just tell them in sentences. On the other hand, if you are just trying to communicate to a food server what your food preferences are, using vegan as an adjective (i.e. do you have any vegan entrees) works just fine.
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#36 Old 03-11-2016, 09:32 AM
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I think there are some interesting points being made here. With reference to possibly alienating those who may feel they've made a great change and could be motivated to do more if they felt 'included' as a part of the vegan community rather than 'rejected' I guess it's worth considering what really matters?

Is it effective advocacy to 'exclude' those who may have adopted a 'plant based diet' but not yet caught on with the philosophy of veganism, or is it more effective to embrace them and welcome them as fellow vegans at an initial stage of veganism? Bearing in mind these people will be Googling for 'vegan' and exposing themselves to so much more information than if they were just searching for 'plant based'.

There's something I vaguely recall from possibly some relationship counselling type advice, and that's "would you rather be right or happy?" - the idea being would you rather prove that you're in the right but antagonise and alienate your OH in the process or would you rather let go some of the details and work on friendlier forms of relating to one another that strengthen your relationship and bonds and bring you into greater harmony as a couple?
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#37 Old 03-11-2016, 11:38 AM
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Is it effective advocacy to 'exclude' those who may have adopted a 'plant based diet' but not yet caught on with the philosophy of veganism, or is it more effective to embrace them and welcome them as fellow vegans at an initial stage of veganism? Bearing in mind these people will be Googling for 'vegan' and exposing themselves to so much more information than if they were just searching for 'plant based'.

There's something I vaguely recall from possibly some relationship counselling type advice, and that's "would you rather be right or happy?" - the idea being would you rather prove that you're in the right but antagonise and alienate your OH in the process or would you rather let go some of the details and work on friendlier forms of relating to one another that strengthen your relationship and bonds and bring you into greater harmony as a couple?
This is an important point, well said.
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#38 Old 03-13-2016, 05:56 AM
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Labels labels everywhere but does does the wider world really care?

There seems to be a need for the application of a label that defines you. I struggle with this. Before globalisation mixed us all up, there were people out there who were vegetarian but never considered themselves as such. They were just following what their section of society considered a normal diet. It wasn't ethical, moral, social or dietary, it was just what you did.

I turned vegetarian a number of years ago because I felt it was wrong to kill to sustain yourself. Did this make me an ethical vegetarian? When people asked my why, I told them that I don't want to kill or be a part in killing. My perspectives on this changed when I got married. I stuck to the vegetarian diet but I also felt that it was a personal decision I made and not something I felt right forcing on my wife (or even my kids when they came along). So how strong was my moral stance? Funnily enough, no one cared, they just knew I didn't eat meat.

I then cut out the eggs and milk after spending time on this board - mainly for health reasons but I also feel that the level of cruelty in the dairy/egg industry is practically worse than killing animals for food. Now I had a new set of explaining to do and given that I have lived in 3 different countries since adopting a "vegan diet" the labels are different every time. Some people understand the term vegan, others do not so I still often have to tell them that vegans do not eat fish. It seems that outside of the vegan community, no one cares if you are a "real" vegan or not.

Plant based is yet another label which even fewer people recognize than the vegan one. Oh how I wish I could just eat what I want to eat without having to apply a label or explain why I do what I do. Unfortunately, that's not the world we live in...
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#39 Old 03-13-2016, 07:20 AM
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"Plant-based" doesn't help me in ordering meals. Waiters might perceive that it's about plants, and that maybe I'm asking for a dish that's mostly focused on vegetables, but not that I'm asking for a dish that has nothing at all in it that comes from animals. If I spell that out, they'll ask, "Oh, you're saying you want a vegan dish?" Like they're teaching me a new word.
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#40 Old 03-14-2016, 07:24 PM
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A close friend of mine has been vegetarian for almost her entire life, but defends the Canadian seal hunt as an ecological necessity (also coyote fur!!!). She believes in these things because she knows many people who rely on the hunt for income. It's obviously wrong, but her emotions clearly cloud her judgement. She wears leather, of course, and thinks I'm slightly insane for not eating honey.
The way I like to respond to that sort of argument is follow the money. Who's profiting? Look into it a little deeper, and the animals aren't the only ones being exploited. We should look at the big picture. Unfortunately, animal advocates (and especially prominent vegan activists and organizations) do a really cruddy job at building intermovement alliances. Our would-be allies are quite justified when they ask 'where the heck were you when we needed you?'.

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#41 Old 03-15-2016, 06:50 AM
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The way I like to respond to that sort of argument is follow the money. Who's profiting? Look into it a little deeper, and the animals aren't the only ones being exploited. We should look at the big picture. Unfortunately, animal advocates (and especially prominent vegan activists and organizations) do a really cruddy job at building intermovement alliances. Our would-be allies are quite justified when they ask 'where the heck were you when we needed you?'.
Very true! Here in Canada, most seal hunters are fishermen who are trying to supplement their income. If there were a safety net to support them in the off season, it wouldn't be necessary. Instead, they are stuck slaughtering seals and trying to find a market for the pelts (even the Russians and Chinese don't want them). The flesh is turned into Omega 3 oil (yuck). Of course, if they stopped fishing and found another line of work, it would be even better, but that would require a lot of job training that I doubt the government would be willing to provide.
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#42 Old 03-16-2016, 11:36 AM
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I think you've made an excellent point, Modvegan.
This dissociation vegans often practice between what they are doing (right..) and what omnivores trapped in occupations that make it tempting to abuse animals to supplement their income because no appropriate safety net is available ( wrong..) is as negative for us as vegans as for omnivores. I see the direct dilemma in rural Canada, and I think it's similar in rural France, where isolated communities have few or no income-generating work options. A case in point is the "foie gras" industry in SW France, where groups of rural and option-poor workers get involved to make a little money. We as vegans condemn the industry, but cannot hope to offer those involved any prospect of alternative work options (and the National or regional govt. administrations don't feel the need to, being omnivore-minded), and meanwhile the unemployment rate is stagnating or rising... I consider myself chastened by your reminder. At least I hope one can say vegans try to avoid hypocrisy if they can.
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#43 Old 03-18-2016, 10:31 AM
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Plant-based, from my understanding, is strictly related to diet and has nothing to do with a person's ethical standpoint. I think the term came after vegans wanted people to know that ''Veganism is not a diet!'', especially after quite a few celebrities went plant-based to lose weight and received mass media coverage from it; Beyonce and Adam Richman being the two most well known for being non-vegans on a "vegan diet!". Immediately after their weight loss, they did go back to consuming animal products which left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. I've noticed that a lot of people on a plant-based diet still have 'cheat' days where they'll eat either/or animal foods and junk. Of course, as we all know there is no such thing as a vegan cheat day. You're either all it or you're not in at all.

I can see how someone would say they're vegan even if they're only in it for the diet. It's hugely hypocritical, yes, but I get it. If I describe my diet (typically HCLF) with "I'm plant-based" my friends/family just look at me blankly until I finish up with... "Vegan". Then I get nods.

So, to answer your question if you say plant-based I will probably assume you are not vegan (to me there is no ethically or not, there's just vegan). If you say you're plant-based vegan then I know both your type of diet AND that you're ethically vegan. And as far as pre-vegan (not sure if that had anything to do with your question), but yes, I'd still consider you vegan because everyone has lingering shampoos, laundry detergents, makeup products, what-have-you that they just haven't replaced yet.
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#44 Old 03-18-2016, 11:33 AM
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Well, not everyone. I think that after this many years, our stuff is all as vegan and cruelty-free as I can find.
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#45 Old 03-18-2016, 12:50 PM
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Well, not everyone. I think that after this many years, our stuff is all as vegan and cruelty-free as I can find.
End goals!

I feel like every time I clean I come across something else that needs to go (then again, I'm still a relatively new vegan).
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#46 Old 03-18-2016, 12:57 PM
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End goals!

I feel like every time I clean I come across something else that needs to go (then again, I'm still a relatively new vegan).
I think most vegans are probably new vegans, and are as a consequence going through the process of becoming vegan.

That's both a good thing (the vegan movement has attracted a lot of interest and a lot of new members in recent years) and a bad thing (most new vegans, sadly don't make it to long-term vegans..)
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#47 Old 03-18-2016, 02:17 PM
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Plant-based, from my understanding, is strictly related to diet and has nothing to do with a person's ethical standpoint. I think the term came after vegans wanted people to know that ''Veganism is not a diet!'', especially after quite a few celebrities went plant-based to lose weight and received mass media coverage from it; Beyonce and Adam Richman being the two most well known for being non-vegans on a "vegan diet!". Immediately after their weight loss, they did go back to consuming animal products which left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. I've noticed that a lot of people on a plant-based diet still have 'cheat' days where they'll eat either/or animal foods and junk. Of course, as we all know there is no such thing as a vegan cheat day. You're either all it or you're not in at all.

I can see how someone would say they're vegan even if they're only in it for the diet. It's hugely hypocritical, yes, but I get it. If I describe my diet (typically HCLF) with "I'm plant-based" my friends/family just look at me blankly until I finish up with... "Vegan". Then I get nods.

So, to answer your question if you say plant-based I will probably assume you are not vegan (to me there is no ethically or not, there's just vegan). If you say you're plant-based vegan then I know both your type of diet AND that you're ethically vegan. And as far as pre-vegan (not sure if that had anything to do with your question), but yes, I'd still consider you vegan because everyone has lingering shampoos, laundry detergents, makeup products, what-have-you that they just haven't replaced yet.
I have a good friend who eats vegan because of some serious health problems. And he calls himself a vegan. The AR conversation isn't something he thinks about one way or the other. Should I think of him as a hypocrite who is "only it for the the diet." I don't think so. That seems really harsh to me.
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#48 Old 03-18-2016, 02:39 PM
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I have a good friend who eats vegan because of some serious health problems. And he calls himself a vegan. The AR conversation isn't something he thinks about one way or the other. Should I think of him as a hypocrite who is "only it for the the diet." I don't think so. That seems really harsh to me.
Whatever reasons he's personally in it for, it doesn't really matter now you "think of" your friend (it won't affect him or what he does after all), so you should probably think of him in whatever way works for you both.

Whether it's his core motivation or not (and from what you say he has adopted 'veganism' just for the diet) you obviously also don't want to "think of him" as an "only in the diet" kind of "vegan" because that has negative "hypocrite" connotations for you.

In case you think so, there's nothing hypocritical about people adopting a plant-based "vegan" diet for themselves. There's nothing hypocritical about being "in the diet, just for yourself" rather than because of the animals who are spared as a consequence of your dietary choice. A lot of people come to this place because they are seeking answers to health problems. It's all good.

As such - and as has been suggested on this thread - maybe it would be more productive for you to think of him as a "beginner vegan" who's on a journey into veganism? I can't speak for others, but I'd probably go that route myself.

There's no reason why you couldn't introduce him to the fuller side of the vegan perspective (animals/environment), once he's begun to understand and fully embrace the personal benefits to himself. There's absolutely nothing "harsh" about honest, friendly education and engagement.
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#49 Old 03-18-2016, 03:16 PM
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I have a good friend who eats vegan because of some serious health problems. And he calls himself a vegan. The AR conversation isn't something he thinks about one way or the other. Should I think of him as a hypocrite who is "only it for the the diet." I don't think so. That seems really harsh to me.
You wouldn't need to think of him as anything. Maybe, you confuse me calling someone a hypocrite with a judgement (of character, possibly?) which isn't the case. If he says, "I'm vegan" but knows he isn't, that means his actions don't match the essential rules of being vegan. That is, by definition, a hypocrite. I did also say that I fully understood why a person would say they're vegan knowing their not. Hand in hand with forum topic, he's plant-based not vegan. It's not meant to be harsh and I don't think it should be taken as harsh. It's more like "Hey, there's untruth to that statement."

EDIT: Adding on after reading the above reply. I'm not saying this applies to people who are giving it a good effort in transitioning. I'm speaking strictly of people who don't eat animals but don't really care about anything else, nor do they want to put effort in changing anything else.
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#50 Old 03-18-2016, 04:40 PM
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You wouldn't need to think of him as anything. Maybe, you confuse me calling someone a hypocrite with a judgement (of character, possibly?) which isn't the case. If he says, "I'm vegan" but knows he isn't, that means his actions don't match the essential rules of being vegan. That is, by definition, a hypocrite. I did also say that I fully understood why a person would say they're vegan knowing their not. Hand in hand with forum topic, he's plant-based not vegan. It's not meant to be harsh and I don't think it should be taken as harsh. It's more like "Hey, there's untruth to that statement."

EDIT: Adding on after reading the above reply. I'm not saying this applies to people who are giving it a good effort in transitioning. I'm speaking strictly of people who don't eat animals but don't really care about anything else, nor do they want to put effort in changing anything else.
Agreed. T.Colin Campbell, who eats a "plant-based" diet, has repeatedly said that he is not a vegan, because that entails commitments to animal welfare that aren't really part of his worldview. Interesting. At the same time, I think he has done a great deal to reduce animal suffering by pointing out the pointlessness and downright harm of eating meat.

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#51 Old 03-18-2016, 07:51 PM
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You wouldn't need to think of him as anything. Maybe, you confuse me calling someone a hypocrite with a judgement (of character, possibly?) which isn't the case. If he says, "I'm vegan" but knows he isn't, that means his actions don't match the essential rules of being vegan. That is, by definition, a hypocrite. I did also say that I fully understood why a person would say they're vegan knowing their not. Hand in hand with forum topic, he's plant-based not vegan. It's not meant to be harsh and I don't think it should be taken as harsh. It's more like "Hey, there's untruth to that statement."

EDIT: Adding on after reading the above reply. I'm not saying this applies to people who are giving it a good effort in transitioning. I'm speaking strictly of people who don't eat animals but don't really care about anything else, nor do they want to put effort in changing anything else.
I don't agree with your definition of a hypocrite. In my book, a hypocrite is a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she knowingly does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives. I don't assume dietary vegans know they are not real vegans, as you assume. But I understand your definition, and I can see how from your perspective, calling people hypocrites isn't meant to be harsh. So I won't take it that way. Thank you for the clarification.
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#52 Old 03-18-2016, 11:08 PM
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I have seen plant based interpreted different ways.

One way is a vegan who only eats whole foods, like indicating they don't do anything processed.

The second is a dietary vegan who does not live an ethical vegan lifestyle.

Third is some one who is "mostly vegan" and eats whole foods but still might eat some cheese or eggs moderately. I've even seen such people be pescetarian.
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#53 Old 03-18-2016, 11:21 PM
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Plant-based, from my understanding, is strictly related to diet and has nothing to do with a person's ethical standpoint. I think the term came after vegans wanted people to know that ''Veganism is not a diet!'', especially after quite a few celebrities went plant-based to lose weight and received mass media coverage from it; Beyonce and Adam Richman being the two most well known for being non-vegans on a "vegan diet!". Immediately after their weight loss, they did go back to consuming animal products which left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. I've noticed that a lot of people on a plant-based diet still have 'cheat' days where they'll eat either/or animal foods and junk. Of course, as we all know there is no such thing as a vegan cheat day. You're either all it or you're not in at all.

I can see how someone would say they're vegan even if they're only in it for the diet. It's hugely hypocritical, yes, but I get it. If I describe my diet (typically HCLF) with "I'm plant-based" my friends/family just look at me blankly until I finish up with... "Vegan". Then I get nods.

So, to answer your question if you say plant-based I will probably assume you are not vegan (to me there is no ethically or not, there's just vegan). If you say you're plant-based vegan then I know both your type of diet AND that you're ethically vegan. And as far as pre-vegan (not sure if that had anything to do with your question), but yes, I'd still consider you vegan because everyone has lingering shampoos, laundry detergents, makeup products, what-have-you that they just haven't replaced yet.


The word hypocrite indicates to me "do as I say, not as I do." Like a religious hypocrite would publicly shame others and have a good image at church, but have a secret lifestyle. ..these are the sort of people Jesus referred to as the Pharisees, who prayed loudly on street corners or made a huge show of religious legalism, but in their hearts and in private knew they were only doing it to be thought well of, or in order to have power over others. There are a lot of people like this in the politically motivated "religious right" who are also sometimes called "cultural Christians" or "Constantine Christians" whose faith and spirituality don't seem sincere.

In terms of that line of thought, a hypocritical vegan wouldn't actually believe what they said. Like someone who pretended to be vegan in yoga class or something equally stupid. Or Anne Hathaway, she makes me mad, she was a very preachy celebrity vegan who dropped it like a hot potato for paleo...didn't even bother trying to be lacto-ovo or something still vegetarian.

A dietary or health vegan isn't a hypocrite, then. They practice what they preach. ..what they preach is diet or health. Not animal rights. No hypocrisy there.
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#54 Old 03-19-2016, 05:00 AM
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I don't agree with your definition of a hypocrite. In my book, a hypocrite is a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she knowingly does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives. I don't assume dietary vegans know they are not real vegans, as you assume. But I understand your definition, and I can see how from your perspective, calling people hypocrites isn't meant to be harsh. So I won't take it that way. Thank you for the clarification.
I don't assume dietary vegans know they're not real vegans, not all of them at least. No one knows it all when they start out vegan, I'm still learning, and ignorance is part of the process. I was speaking of the other people who know that diet doesn't equal vegan. I re-edited my reply but it might've been missed.

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The word hypocrite indicates to me "do as I say, not as I do." Like a religious hypocrite would publicly shame others and have a good image at church, but have a secret lifestyle. ..these are the sort of people Jesus referred to as the Pharisees, who prayed loudly on street corners or made a huge show of religious legalism, but in their hearts and in private knew they were only doing it to be thought well of, or in order to have power over others. There are a lot of people like this in the politically motivated "religious right" who are also sometimes called "cultural Christians" or "Constantine Christians" whose faith and spirituality don't seem sincere.

In terms of that line of thought, a hypocritical vegan wouldn't actually believe what they said. Like someone who pretended to be vegan in yoga class or something equally stupid. Or Anne Hathaway, she makes me mad, she was a very preachy celebrity vegan who dropped it like a hot potato for paleo...didn't even bother trying to be lacto-ovo or something still vegetarian.

A dietary or health vegan isn't a hypocrite, then. They practice what they preach. ..what they preach is diet or health. Not animal rights. No hypocrisy there.
Is dietary vegan really a thing? Do you really get to pick and choose which parts of vegan you want to be?

"A man goes into the grocery store. He buys a leather wallet and sticky glue mouse traps along with his clearly labeled vegan meats. To which the cashier asks, 'Oh, are you vegetarian?' The man then smiles and replies, 'I'm vegan, actually.' before walking away."

To avoid being a giant ass (which isn't my intention, I promise) I find it incredibly difficult to agree with that statement and it surely doesn't seem sincere to me. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I know I would certainly be taken aback. Would I think him a bad person? I don't know him, so why would I? But I would call him out on it, and in the case that he's simply ignorant, then I would feel obligated to educate him so that he at least has the knowledge that what he's doing isn't correct. Just as I would want someone to do for me.

Now, if he replied with something like, 'I know it's bad... but..'

No buts. He is doing nothing more than clearly stating, "I'm entitling myself to this very label and all that goes with it, despite what I know it actually means." He is still a hypocrite because he knows vegans do not kill mice and buy leather wallets. If Veganism has re-written it's definition to allow for this, then I apologize and will cease the debate.

I will say that this very topic is exactly why I think we need to use plant-based at appropriate times so that the line doesn't become blurred. To echo my original post a little, people, young people especially, are coming into Veganism on this hype train from what they see on youtube largely thinking that it's a diet and they're going to lose weight while maybe helping out the planet at the same time. Great for them, truly, but some never further educate them or don't really feel like educating themselves. It's important to call these people out. Not to be mean or rude or insulting, but merely to inform them that what they're doing isn't right/correct/accurate.

What would happen if everyone who decided they'd go vegan just stopped somewhere in the middle and said 'all right, this is good enough'. Would it make a difference? For a while, definitely, but I'm not sure how sustainable that is long term.

I suppose what I was trying to say in all of my posts was that to my knowledge there was only one type vegan, different diets, sure. But ultimately it's under one central belief/moral standard. Saying you are something you are not, regardless of if you preach it or not, under whatever adjective you wish, it's still inaccurate. Neither of your definitions of a hypocrite are incorrect, but neither was mine.

Perhaps the definition has changed suddenly and vegan no longer means simply 'vegan'...
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#55 Old 03-19-2016, 05:22 AM
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I'm just happy when people stop eating meat. Triply happy if they don't eat dairy or chicken eggs.

They can call themselves anything they want. There's a learning curve to anything, and new dietary vegans will discover the animal products in the rest of the things in stores as time goes on.

The vast majority of the animals saved will be from people not eating meat.
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#56 Old 03-19-2016, 07:02 AM
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Not long ago I ran across the following blog post which I think is relevant here. I offer it as food for thought...

Quote:
Don’t you dare call yourself a vegan!

FEBRUARY 1, 2016 ~ TOBIAS LEENAERT

I felt I needed to write a response to an article on Ecorazzi called “If you are on a plant based diet, stop calling yourself vegan!”

The title, and especially the exclamation mark, made me almost physically unwell (I’m only exaggerating a little bit here). As far as titles go, it kind of says it all. Probably the author has the best intentions (though they may be unpure, like with all of us), but this way of thinking and communicating is so unproductive and so damaging, I just don’t know where to start.

The author believes that the health vegans – which obviously she doesn’t want to call vegans but rather plant-based people or something – are “hijacking” the vegan movement. She wants to kind of forbid health vegans to call themselves vegan. Apart from the fact that telling people not to use a word is kind of annoying and nasty, it is also very unproductive to ostracize health vegans from “our club”....
Continue reading at http://veganstrategist.org/2016/02/0...rself-a-vegan/
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#57 Old 03-19-2016, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terra biped View Post
Not long ago I ran across the following blog post which I think is relevant here. I offer it as food for thought...



Continue reading at http://veganstrategist.org/2016/02/0...rself-a-vegan/
Well worth the read, and thanks for posting. I do very much agree with a lot of the points, but also a select few in the original post as well. It's seems to be a matter of intent where I get lost or have trouble conveying my feelings, and perhaps we're talking about different people:

- The girl who has watched the documentaries, says she's vegan and that it's helping her lose weight while buying a brand new fur coat.
- The family member who has heard all of the facts you have to share, and makes a stir fry only to say, "It's pretty much vegan, it just has a little bit of meat in it."
- The spouse who lets you plan the meals and buy the ''nice'' household products only to say, "I know you're upset that I made steak for dinner last night, but at least I'm vegan today."

These are the example of people I'm specifically talking bout. They all follow a plant-based diet but aren't strict vegan. They have no intention of becoming so which is completely different than someone who is starting with health and is curious about the other aspects of veganism while gradually transitioning their lifestyle. That being said, There's a point to having limits/lines/concrete definitions, I think. There is a definite need for there to be a clarification between "I'm in it for the diet." and "I'm in it for the environment, my health, my mind of peace, the animals, ect." While I wouldn't ever yell "NOT VEGAN! YOU. ARE. NOT. VEGAN!" at someone who said they were plant-based, nor would I pull out my netbook to set up a 30 minute powerpoint presentation, I would eventually ask about the other aspects of their life and maybe, just maybe I could suggest a few things for them to try.

Since what I'm hoping to say doesn't get translated very well, I guess I'll concede. But I would never undermine someone who is curious about veganism or just starting out at the very beginning of the journey, nor would I ever say that someone who only cut meat consumption isn't helping to reduce suffering. If what I said in any of my posts came across in that way then I do apologize.
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#58 Old 03-19-2016, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackBoxed View Post
I don't assume dietary vegans know they're not real vegans, not all of them at least. No one knows it all when they start out vegan, I'm still learning, and ignorance is part of the process. I was speaking of the other people who know that diet doesn't equal vegan. I re-edited my reply but it might've been missed.



Is dietary vegan really a thing? Do you really get to pick and choose which parts of vegan you want to be?

"A man goes into the grocery store. He buys a leather wallet and sticky glue mouse traps along with his clearly labeled vegan meats. To which the cashier asks, 'Oh, are you vegetarian?' The man then smiles and replies, 'I'm vegan, actually.' before walking away."

To avoid being a giant ass (which isn't my intention, I promise) I find it incredibly difficult to agree with that statement and it surely doesn't seem sincere to me. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I know I would certainly be taken aback. Would I think him a bad person? I don't know him, so why would I? But I would call him out on it, and in the case that he's simply ignorant, then I would feel obligated to educate him so that he at least has the knowledge that what he's doing isn't correct. Just as I would want someone to do for me.

Now, if he replied with something like, 'I know it's bad... but..'

No buts. He is doing nothing more than clearly stating, "I'm entitling myself to this very label and all that goes with it, despite what I know it actually means." He is still a hypocrite because he knows vegans do not kill mice and buy leather wallets. If Veganism has re-written it's definition to allow for this, then I apologize and will cease the debate.

I will say that this very topic is exactly why I think we need to use plant-based at appropriate times so that the line doesn't become blurred. To echo my original post a little, people, young people especially, are coming into Veganism on this hype train from what they see on youtube largely thinking that it's a diet and they're going to lose weight while maybe helping out the planet at the same time. Great for them, truly, but some never further educate them or don't really feel like educating themselves. It's important to call these people out. Not to be mean or rude or insulting, but merely to inform them that what they're doing isn't right/correct/accurate.

What would happen if everyone who decided they'd go vegan just stopped somewhere in the middle and said 'all right, this is good enough'. Would it make a difference? For a while, definitely, but I'm not sure how sustainable that is long term.

I suppose what I was trying to say in all of my posts was that to my knowledge there was only one type vegan, different diets, sure. But ultimately it's under one central belief/moral standard. Saying you are something you are not, regardless of if you preach it or not, under whatever adjective you wish, it's still inaccurate. Neither of your definitions of a hypocrite are incorrect, but neither was mine.

Perhaps the definition has changed suddenly and vegan no longer means simply 'vegan'...
I'm sorry but I don't share your world view. Yes there definitely should be basic perameters for the word vegan (for example vegans don't eat fish or drink cows milk) but being a dietary vegan covers huge ground in terms of preventing animal cruelty and promoting environmental sustainability...I'm a results minded person, rather than a philosophical purist.

I don't see the problem with calling someone a "dietary vegan" and no I don't think they're a hypocrite. I honestly think people with your mindset push people away from veganism, or plant based diets.

I would see one of the main problems with a dietary vegan is if they still went out and bought leather.

But vegans can still eat honey or sugar or drink alcohol (I personally think honey isn't ok, for environmental reasons) ..the truth is the vast majority of vegans are probably about 99% vegan, because no one is perfect, whether it's through accidentally buying a grooming product or eating sugar processed with bone fragments.
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#59 Old 03-19-2016, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackBoxed View Post
Well worth the read, and thanks for posting. I do very much agree with a lot of the points, but also a select few in the original post as well. It's seems to be a matter of intent where I get lost or have trouble conveying my feelings, and perhaps we're talking about different people:

- The girl who has watched the documentaries, says she's vegan and that it's helping her lose weight while buying a brand new fur coat.
- The family member who has heard all of the facts you have to share, and makes a stir fry only to say, "It's pretty much vegan, it just has a little bit of meat in it."
- The spouse who lets you plan the meals and buy the ''nice'' household products only to say, "I know you're upset that I made steak for dinner last night, but at least I'm vegan today."

These are the example of people I'm specifically talking bout. They all follow a plant-based diet but aren't strict vegan. They have no intention of becoming so which is completely different than someone who is starting with health and is curious about the other aspects of veganism while gradually transitioning their lifestyle. That being said, There's a point to having limits/lines/concrete definitions, I think. There is a definite need for there to be a clarification between "I'm in it for the diet." and "I'm in it for the environment, my health, my mind of peace, the animals, ect." While I wouldn't ever yell "NOT VEGAN! YOU. ARE. NOT. VEGAN!" at someone who said they were plant-based, nor would I pull out my netbook to set up a 30 minute powerpoint presentation, I would eventually ask about the other aspects of their life and maybe, just maybe I could suggest a few things for them to try.

Since what I'm hoping to say doesn't get translated very well, I guess I'll concede. But I would never undermine someone who is curious about veganism or just starting out at the very beginning of the journey, nor would I ever say that someone who only cut meat consumption isn't helping to reduce suffering. If what I said in any of my posts came across in that way then I do apologize.

Donald Watson created the term vegan to mean dietary restrictions as a "non dairy vegetarian" so again I don't see the problem with it being used in the dietary sense to succinct, though your fur coat example is definitely annoying and unsettling, I don't have a problem with someone who is making an effort to call themselves "mostly vegan" or "eating vegan meals every other day" ...my mom has used the term to pledge to me her effort to consume less animal products, I think it would be counterproductive and cruel to be technical about it, again as I said in my other post, pushing people away from the effort they are making.

I put transitioning to vegan on my profile out of respect towards purists, but I certainly don't expect this out of the average American. I think it's self-defeating to do so.
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#60 Old 03-20-2016, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Donald Watson created the term vegan to mean dietary restrictions
Read Vegan News #1. It's the first mention of the word 'vegan', and probably the most accurate expression of his thinking at the time.

Here's how he described the 'health' argument for a vegan diet: "we consider the time perhaps premature to make any great claims for the physiological superiority of our diet". He considered the timing premature because "we are still without much data concerning the merits of diets free from animal food".

Still, he does seem to mention dietary restriction a lot. To understand why, we have to examine the context of Watson's writings, particularly who he was addressing. He explicitly addresses his audience by name in the second paragraph (emphasis mine): "For years many of us accepted, as lacto-vegetarians". He was talking to vegetarians. A strong argument can be made that these were ethical vegetarians. Things like not wearing animal skins were shared opinions. The only point of contention was whether or not certain animal products that were not direct products of slaughter should be consumed. Of course that's what he'd talk about! Why argue for a point that your audience already agrees with?

That's a really brief summary of an argument. Watson's words are often read out of context and effectively (often without malicious intent) misrepresented.

But read for yourself. Here's a link. Scroll down to see the text.

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