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-   -   Leather Shoes...Moral or Monster? (https://www.veggieboards.com/forum/60-vegan-support-forum/196937-leather-shoes-moral-monster.html)

Pixie the Cat 12-13-2015 08:51 AM

Leather Shoes...Moral or Monster?
 
Hi there, guys.

I am a vegan and have been for many years. I decided to go vegan for ethical reasons, but having become a fitness-freak over the last couple of years, I can also attest to its brilliant health benefits!
However, I am also autistic, which means that I suffer from physical sensitivity, balance issues and low muscle tone - all of which add up to one thing: I need good shoes.
I wear Puma trainers for my weightlifting and other exercise, and during the day I live in my beat-up grey Converse, but having been born with slightly mishapen feet (bummer!) I now have really sore toes and calloused skin. What I need is a pair of New Balance trainers for everyday wear. The problem is, the ones that are best for my tootsies happen to be...yes. Suede. Dead cow's butt. What can I do?
Having my disability means that I am sensitive to a lot of textures, and it is nightmare city trying to find a suitable pair of shoes - but these New Balance ones fit all the bills. They are quite simply perfect. But...dead cow's ass. It breaks my heart.
Should I compromise my ethics to help my disability? I have searched all of the vegan shoe options and they do not suit my needs at all. So, to conclude, is it OK to compromise footwear ethics when you have autism and special needs? Or does that make me a hypocritical monster? Advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks a lot, guys!
Pixie xxx

BobJustBob 12-13-2015 09:08 AM

Pixie:

I don't consider you a monster if your physical condition means that you require leather shoes. The way I look at it, the fact that you are a dietary vegan means that many hundreds of animals won't be slaughtered because of your food choices. Don't beat yourself up because of this. Think of how much animal suffering would be avoided if everyone on the planet followed your lead!

Poppy 12-13-2015 09:32 AM

If you are 100% convinced that you have explored every possible option and the only possible shoe for you is one with suede, then so be it. I'm concerned, though, that once you buy them you will dread wearing them, so do be sure you've done your homework and examined every possible alternative. You may even want to send an email to the company and ask if they make this style in other man-made materials. Good luck!

Wolf_Whistle 12-13-2015 10:48 AM

Well, there are alternatives out there, but they tend to be rather expensive, however you'll feel it's worth every cent, since it won't be animal skin. Usually you do contribute to animal friendly shops as well, so it's a win-win for everyone.
Another option is to buy all you need on second hand stores. All the leather I've bought is second hand. Now that I'm a vegan, I'm trying to save up for synthetic alternatives that look and feel like leather, while wearing my old stuff until that day. Doesn't make me happy to wear it, but at least I did not contributed to the killing of another cow, which it would have been the case if I had got my jacket on a regular shop.

I think it's always a compromise when you are at the beginning.

silva 12-13-2015 11:36 AM

I'm another who feels that buying things that really have an impact on how you feel and perform, as well as last for years, isn't a disqualifier for being vegan. When I tore a ligament in my ankle I went crazy trying to find shoes I could walk in properly-I came back to the original leather sauconys I'd tried because they were far superior to my gait. I continued to look and try and correct my problems, but in the meantime being without pain and the ability to walk unimpared was priceless. Same with vitamin D. WHen I found I was very deficient despite taking D2, I got D3 to get me to the level I needed. Now I now I can look to vegan D3 to sustain a good level.
I would look to second hand shops which aren't consignment shops. Stores like Goodwill that donate to charitable causes.

Your comments on physical sensitivities interest me because I've felt I'm on the autistic spectrum since Ive heard of it. From childhood and teens I was diagnosed as schizophrenic, but have gone beyond that from my 20's on. I'm extremely --xenophobic? just don't feel part of anything. certainly not social, and have learned to "pattern" behavior so I get along just fine. Better with people I don't know, because I never want the kinds of closeness most 'friendships' require. I never feel anyone gets me. Anyway, I'm also very sensitive to clothing, tempertures, my hair, itchiness..... it's been getting really bad lately. Shoes are a big problem, and while I now wear Saucony that aren't leather, I can feel what its like to want comfort.

New Balance is known for making non-leather shoes. If you know which style is right, I suggest calling the companies number and asking for help selecting a similair style in non leather

Naturebound 12-13-2015 11:36 AM

In case you haven't searched the following site yet, try it out!

http://vegan8.me/vegan-athletic-shoe...ic-shoes-2015/


VERY comprehensive list of vegan shoes from all around the world. All of my vegan hiking and cycling shoes I had to order online because I needed something very specific and I am fortunate they all fit on my first go. I have had them for anywhere from 3 to 5 years now and all are very nice quality and still going strong. One of them I bought through Amazon.com for half the normal price and paid very little for. If you can find a specific brand of shoe that will work, see if they have it on Amazon.com and watch it on your wish list for prices to go down. Or try Ebay or something along those lines.

I do understand it can be a huge effort to find high quality not too expensive vegan shoes that fit correctly. For my Wicked Hemps and Kiowas, I did have to buy a shoe insert because I have very high arches (along with wide feet with a narrow heel) and didn't feel they provided enough arch support, but with the simple shoe inserts they work very well. I already have a few high top hikers on my wanted list from that list above. I just have to wait for that tax return. :) Best of luck!

Mojo 12-13-2015 07:06 PM

I relate to your question and am trying to find new vegan shoes as well right now. I don't have a car and walk 2500-3000 miles a year. I need a 9.5 extra wide walking shoe and had been using New Balance 812, but those are now discontinued. Those didn't have leather, though they probably had animal glue (New Balance couldn't verify). They've replaced it with the 813, which does have leather. Sneakers, basketball shoes, running shoes.... are all designed for different uses. If I use a shoe that isn't designed for walking, or doesn't fit correctly, my feet will blister and walking becomes very difficult.

Finding a replacement high-quality extra-wide walking shoe has been tough. I'm going to try New Balance 665 because it doesn't have leather (though it probably has animal glue). It costs almost half as much as the 812's did, so I worry about inferior quality. If that doesn't work, then I'm not sure what my back up plan is, other than hope some other company puts out the type of shoe I need. I may need to get the 813's even though I hate the idea.

I don't expect to live a perfect vegan life. I try to live a better life, making vegan decisions where I can. There are lots of choices when it comes to something like food, but very few when it comes to something like shoes in specific sizes for specific purposes.

Pixie the Cat 12-15-2015 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobJustBob (Post 3844977)
Pixie:

I don't consider you a monster if your physical condition means that you require leather shoes. The way I look at it, the fact that you are a dietary vegan means that many hundreds of animals won't be slaughtered because of your food choices. Don't beat yourself up because of this. Think of how much animal suffering would be avoided if everyone on the planet followed your lead!

Thank you for commenting! And thanks awfully for your advice. I think it's true that I am avoiding a great deal of animal suffering, and besides - if they have my shoe of choice in store already (which they do, I checked) then it will only be given to another buyer anyway. And besides - most shoes are glued with animal by-products. It must be nigh on impossible to get a totally vegan shoe!

Pixie the Cat 12-15-2015 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturebound (Post 3845097)
In case you haven't searched the following site yet, try it out!

http://vegan8.me/vegan-athletic-shoe...ic-shoes-2015/


VERY comprehensive list of vegan shoes from all around the world. All of my vegan hiking and cycling shoes I had to order online because I needed something very specific and I am fortunate they all fit on my first go. I have had them for anywhere from 3 to 5 years now and all are very nice quality and still going strong. One of them I bought through Amazon.com for half the normal price and paid very little for. If you can find a specific brand of shoe that will work, see if they have it on Amazon.com and watch it on your wish list for prices to go down. Or try Ebay or something along those lines.

I do understand it can be a huge effort to find high quality not too expensive vegan shoes that fit correctly. For my Wicked Hemps and Kiowas, I did have to buy a shoe insert because I have very high arches (along with wide feet with a narrow heel) and didn't feel they provided enough arch support, but with the simple shoe inserts they work very well. I already have a few high top hikers on my wanted list from that list above. I just have to wait for that tax return. https://www.veggieboards.com/forum/im...face_smile.png Best of luck!

Wow! Thanks so much for your in depth reply - much appreciated! I checked out the site you suggested, but unfortunately most of the stuff on there looks unsuitable and is also way out of my price range (I'm just a poor student at the moment, haha!). It looks as if I'm going to have to make a sad compromise. It sucks having the disability I do, because it makes wearing anything but 'perfect' footwear completely out of the question.

Pixie the Cat 12-15-2015 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppy (Post 3844993)
If you are 100% convinced that you have explored every possible option and the only possible shoe for you is one with suede, then so be it. I'm concerned, though, that once you buy them you will dread wearing them, so do be sure you've done your homework and examined every possible alternative. You may even want to send an email to the company and ask if they make this style in other man-made materials. Good luck!

Thanks for the advice, buddy! Sadly the company DO NOT make anything similar in non-leather... It is so sad, but I guess a compromise will have to be made. My research has been absolutely thorough and I think I will have to go with suede shoes.

Pixie the Cat 12-15-2015 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf_Whistle (Post 3845073)
Well, there are alternatives out there, but they tend to be rather expensive, however you'll feel it's worth every cent, since it won't be animal skin. Usually you do contribute to animal friendly shops as well, so it's a win-win for everyone.
Another option is to buy all you need on second hand stores. All the leather I've bought is second hand. Now that I'm a vegan, I'm trying to save up for synthetic alternatives that look and feel like leather, while wearing my old stuff until that day. Doesn't make me happy to wear it, but at least I did not contributed to the killing of another cow, which it would have been the case if I had got my jacket on a regular shop.

I think it's always a compromise when you are at the beginning.

Thanks for your advice and support!
Sadly, I am only a poor student and any really quality animal-free shoes are waaaaay above budget. I can't afford anything fancy at all - which is ironic, because it costs more to produce leather! Also, buying second hand is impossible with my disability - if the shoe has already been worn, it will have slight 'imprints' off the previous wearer, thus making the fit uncomfortable (honestly, autistic people are shoe-fitting nightmares!). I think it will have to be a sad, unfortunate compromise.

Pixie the Cat 12-15-2015 03:25 PM

Wow, thank you for your exceptional response! Your issues with socialising, xenophobia, etc really resonate with me. And the schizophrenia? My dad (who is autistic too) was also diagnosed with schizophrenia many years ago. The symptoms often co-manifest and I think they can be easily confused.
Message me if you fancy an autism/mental-health related chat! :-)

As to the shoes, I think I will have to go with the suede. It is sad, but when your feet belong to a slightly eccentric body, and your body belongs to an even more eccentric mind, then I guess compromises are OK. It's about doing the best you can, and knowing that you aren't a bad person.

Thanks again for your awesome response - please do feel free to message me, as I said!

frame69 12-17-2015 06:55 AM

You can never be %100 that you lead a zero animal lifestyle no matter how sure you think you are.
The animals get slaughtered for the flesh eaters.
While welding I have to wear my old..old suede jacket. I've tried 3 times to weld without it on and 3 times I have caught fire.
A cowhide can be taken from an animal the died of natural causes,the flesh cant be used.
We all do our bit otherwise we wouldn't be here :)

Have fun ...Frame.

defenmouse 01-10-2016 09:45 AM

I also don't consider you as a monster 'cause I'm also a happy owner of baggy leather shoes Why happy? I had a lot of shoes ( not leather) before I have bought these ones. As occurred I have some problems with my feet because of which I can't wear another type of boots.

David3 01-10-2016 10:22 AM

When I used to ride a motorscooter, I was unable (at that time) to find non-leather riding gloves to protect my hands in case of a fall. I went ahead and bought the gloves.

I was able to find a non-leather, impact- and abrasion-resistant riding jacket. These are called "textile jackets" in the motorcycle world.

I miss my scooter! 90 miles to the gallon! My wife asked me to stop riding, and I can't blame her; I wouldn't want her to ride.

http://photos4.meetupstatic.com/phot..._48191071.jpeg

Hannah247 01-12-2016 10:45 AM

Your not a monster even if you didn't NEED the shoes it's still perfectly fine to wear them if your ok with it like nobody else can make up your mind for you and nobody will mind if your shoes aren't vegan as It is your choice to be a vegan so u can choose what you wear on your feet

QuietVegan 01-12-2016 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hannah247 (Post 3874449)
and nobody will mind if your shoes aren't vegan

Go tell that to the omnivores! They will be the first to point out the anomaly.

It will happen so be prepared for comments from people about the fact you wear animal skin but don't eat animal flesh.

Having said that, I can appreciate the difficulties you face re: sensory issues. Others, however, who are trying to knock your food choices will latch on to it and use it as a stick to beat you with :serious: Just be prepared for it x

Joan Kennedy 01-14-2016 10:26 AM

I've never had an omnivore point out an anomaly, even though I'm full of obvious ones including leather. Though I identify as vegetarian, omnivores are always the ones who think of me as vegan because I don't eat meat, dairy or egg content. After the first or second time I stop correcting them. If they think of me as vegan they stop offering me cake and ice cream, and stop asking me if I could please bring egg salad to the potluck.

QuietVegan 01-14-2016 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan Kennedy (Post 3876641)
I've never had an omnivore point out an anomaly, even though I'm full of obvious ones including leather.

Maybe I got your share of the comments then Joan. I've never had so many people interested in my fashion choices since I turned vegan, almost like they want to catch me out on something.

I even had someone say "are those leather?" when I was clearly wearing canvas shoes! Still not entirely sure if they were joking or just extremely thick.

Joan Kennedy 01-14-2016 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuietVegan (Post 3876649)
Maybe I got your share of the comments then Joan. I've never had so many people interested in my fashion choices since I turned vegan, almost like they want to catch me out on something.

I even had someone say "are those leather?" when I was clearly wearing canvas shoes! Still not entirely sure if they were joking or just extremely thick.

Needling. I'd say they were needling you. I'm 64, so a Baby Boomer. Only one percent of us even abstain from meat in the US. I understand 4 percent of GenXers and 11 percent of Millenniels don't eat meat, which is actually cause for encouragement. I'm thinking the younger the group, the better versed they are on the ins and outs of veganism, including how to mock it.

QuietVegan 01-14-2016 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan Kennedy (Post 3876681)
Needling. I'd say they were needling you. I'm 64, so a Baby Boomer. Only one percent of us even abstain from meat in the US. I understand 4 percent of GenXers and 11 percent of Millenniels don't eat meat, which is actually cause for encouragement. I'm thinking the younger the group, the better versed they are on the ins and outs of veganism, including how to mock it.

I'm 51 so my peers are less informed than some of the younger generation (or perhaps I just know a lot of idiots!). I had to explain to a 50-something Nurse that cows don't just spontaneously produce milk without being impregnated first.

I must admit I don't get it so much these days so it probably was just people needling me.

Spudulika 01-15-2016 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuietVegan (Post 3876697)
I had to explain to a 50-something Nurse that cows don't just spontaneously produce milk without being impregnated first.

:eek:

Naturebound 01-15-2016 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuietVegan (Post 3876649)
Maybe I got your share of the comments then Joan. I've never had so many people interested in my fashion choices since I turned vegan, almost like they want to catch me out on something.

I even had someone say "are those leather?" when I was clearly wearing canvas shoes! Still not entirely sure if they were joking or just extremely thick.

I've also delt with comments from others asking about my shoes (which happened to be hemp shoes with recycled rubber) and whether they were leather. These weren't friends, they were acquaintances (once when I was leafleting on the streets, another time when I was at a laundromat and a few people were talking about how old vegans look and then I told them I had been vegan for quite a long time and am 43 and I think that shut them up since I look way younger).

And I have seen a LOT of comments from omnis online on YouTube vegan activist videos, and on Facebook, calling vegans and vegetarians out as hypocrits because they perceived that someone was wearing leather. It's true that these people like to look for any tiny flaw so they have an excuse to feel good about continuing on in their ways and not think about the impact of their lifestyle on others.

LedBoots 01-15-2016 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuietVegan (Post 3876697)
I'm 51 so my peers are less informed than some of the younger generation (or perhaps I just know a lot of idiots!). I had to explain to a 50-something Nurse that cows don't just spontaneously produce milk without being impregnated first.

I must admit I don't get it so much these days so it probably was just people needling me.

I'm a nurse and lactation consultant. In human females, even those who haven't been pregnant, lactation can be begun by regularly pumping the breasts. Supply and demand system. Of course, she would usually produce less milk than a woman who has given birth.

And a woman after giving birth once can lactate for years. In the olden days of "wet nursing", some of the the wet nurses were in their 50s and 60s.. They just kept going from feeding one baby to the next, to the next.

I am not that familiar with cow anatomy, but we are both mammals. I'm sure they get more milk by forcibly impregnating them every year than they would by just continuously milking them. But the nurse may have been technically correct.

no whey jose 01-15-2016 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LedBoots (Post 3877193)
I'm a nurse and lactation consultant. In human females, even those who haven't been pregnant, lactation can be begun by regularly pumping the breasts. Supply and demand system. Of course, she would usually produce less milk than a woman who has given birth.

And a woman after giving birth once can lactate for years. In the olden days of "wet nursing", some of the the wet nurses were in their 50s and 60s.. They just kept going from feeding one baby to the next, to the next.

I am not that familiar with cow anatomy, but we are both mammals. I'm sure they get more milk by forcibly impregnating them every year than they would by just continuously milking them. But the nurse may have been technically correct.

Purposeful lactation through continuous pumping or feeding is quite different from spontaneous lactation. There's nothing "spontaneous" about it; it's quite arduous and time-consuming, and often doesn't work even for mothers who HAVE recently given birth. There isn't a farm in existence, for that matter, where milk is produced in this way.

QuietVegan 01-15-2016 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LedBoots (Post 3877193)
I am not that familiar with cow anatomy, but we are both mammals. I'm sure they get more milk by forcibly impregnating them every year than they would by just continuously milking them. But the nurse may have been technically correct.

That's a fair point Ledboots (however, he was also from the school of "cows will explode if we don't milk them"). I think it's just a case of getting out of touch with how food is produced in this factory farming era.

tokyobags 01-16-2016 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturebound (Post 3845097)
In case you haven't searched the following site yet, try it out!

http://vegan8.me/vegan-athletic-shoe...ic-shoes-2015/


VERY comprehensive list of vegan shoes from all around the world. All of my vegan hiking and cycling shoes I had to order online because I needed something very specific and I am fortunate they all fit on my first go. I have had them for anywhere from 3 to 5 years now and all are very nice quality and still going strong. One of them I bought through Amazon.com for half the normal price and paid very little for. If you can find a specific brand of shoe that will work, see if they have it on Amazon.com and watch it on your wish list for prices to go down. Or try Ebay or something along those lines.

I do understand it can be a huge effort to find high quality not too expensive vegan shoes that fit correctly. For my Wicked Hemps and Kiowas, I did have to buy a shoe insert because I have very high arches (along with wide feet with a narrow heel) and didn't feel they provided enough arch support, but with the simple shoe inserts they work very well. I already have a few high top hikers on my wanted list from that list above. I just have to wait for that tax return. :) Best of luck!

Thanks Naturebound!

I have always been trying to increase my options for vegan shoes, and I am really glad that a list which is carefully reviewed in being put out there. Personally lucky for me that i haven been required to wear any form of leather-like material in my daily activities. I make it through with canvas and fabrics shoes/sneakers. With all the available options now it would be great to start exploring a few other brands :)

LedBoots 01-16-2016 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuietVegan (Post 3877209)
That's a fair point Ledboots (however, he was also from the school of "cows will explode if we don't milk them"). I think it's just a case of getting out of touch with how food is produced in this factory farming era.

Well, because humans have messed up the supply/demand system in cows, they will get overfull and probably infections if they are not milked.

I am not defending dairy practices, just stating that the nurse could be technically correct, that the cow would not have to give birth to produce milk.

There are enough other easily defendable facts that condemn dairy.

no whey jose 01-17-2016 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LedBoots (Post 3879257)
Well, because humans have messed up the supply/demand system in cows, they will get overfull and probably infections if they are not milked.

I am not defending dairy practices, just stating that the nurse could be technically correct, that the cow would not have to give birth to produce milk.

There are enough other easily defendable facts that condemn dairy.

I disagree. I think the fact that every dairy cow is repeatedly impregnated at a rate of about one calf a year is one of the most compelling arguments against dairy farming. Even if it were technically possible to produce a profitable amount of milk from a cow who had never given birth-- of which I am extremely sceptical-- that simply isn't how it's done. Dairy cows give birth repeatedly until they're slaughtered, and their babies are either killed or raised to become tortured mothers themselves. Those who claim that cows produce milk "spontaneously" or that they'll "explode" if not milked are not speaking factually.

Naturebound 01-17-2016 04:26 AM

It's rare to drive by a dairy farm (or bike or walk) and not see at least a few calves. And you gotta wonder where all those cows come from year after year. They can't be the same ones I saw ten years ago producing the same amount of milk? My guess is they are female offspring.


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