The Gorilla Diet - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 08-28-2015, 01:35 PM
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The Gorilla Diet

According to Dr. Joel Fuhrman, M.D, gorillas eat a diet of only leaves and fruit. On page 73 of Eat to Live, Dr. Fuhrman implies that such a diet could also be healthy for humans--except that it would result in a calorie deficiency!

He explains that one (1) pound of greens contains only one hundred (100) calories. For that reason it is therefore not possible for a human to eat enough greens to maintain one's weight!

Well, that sounds like the kind of diet I've been waiting for! Therefore, I have decided to use The Gorilla Diet as the basis of my weight-loss program, in hopes that I could also lower my cholesterol, glucose and blood pressure levels, basically by eating all the salads I could hold. I would simply have to vary the fruits and veggies I put in the salad to round out my nutrition.

To me, this plan sounds like a sure-fire method for losing weight. I could avoid the weakness and tiredness that would occur as a result of the calorie deficiency by simply eating more food! It sounds like the perfect diet!

I may also add exercise, sleep, and social support disciplines to the diet, in order to round out a healthy lifestyle, which could hopefully help me live another 5-10 years.

The only problem, of course, is that it may be more easily said than done--which is my problem with life in general.
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#2 Old 08-28-2015, 02:59 PM
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Why not simply stick to Dr. Furhmans eating plan?
I have the book, and if you eat the whole foods he advocates you will lose weight- and then stay at your right weight.
I don't know how much you want to lose, but if you eat the calories you need to maintain your ideal weight, you'll start losing the excess! You won't need to play with calories or adjust.
I did follow his advice for a couple years and did very well. I will say when you lose the sugar you lose your craving. I'm so sorry I ever strayed, but I love to cook bake and eat. I'm now finding my way back

Lentils, beans, whole grains, leafy and all the other veggies and fruits. Done. You need the range of foods to get all your nutrition.

Don't forget spices ! I use tumeric and black pepper every day, and it's tremendous for keeping arthritis away. Well, giving up dairy is the best thing for that. Cinnamon, garlic, ginger, cumin, they're all great for reducing blood pressure and lowering bad cholesterol.
I wish I knew more about herbs. I've started reading up on their role in helping enzyme production to help digestion.

A good tip-- start your day with a tablespoon of lemon juice or apple cider vinegar in a glass of room temp water. That will help digestion. I have found that it's a lack of acid that causes digestion problems. taking antiacids is not good
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#3 Old 08-28-2015, 03:39 PM
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It strikes me as unnecessarily restrictive to eat nothing but greens and fruit. You aren't a gorilla! Beans, grains, tofu, and a variety of veggies have their place in a healthy diet, as does the occasional indulgence. The aim is to settle into a diet you can realistically sustain for life.
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#4 Old 08-28-2015, 06:55 PM
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It strikes me as unnecessarily restrictive to eat nothing but greens and fruit. You aren't a gorilla! Beans, grains, tofu, and a variety of veggies have their place in a healthy diet, as does the occasional indulgence. The aim is to settle into a diet you can realistically sustain for life.
I could not agree more. Why don't you do as others have suggested and follow Dr. Fuhrman's plan? Believe me, once you replace the animal products with a whole-food, plant-based diet, the pounds will gradually come off. Why? Always remember--a gram of fat contains twice the calories of a gram of protein or a gram of carbohydrates. Since most plant foods contain so little fat, you will be cutting your calories in half simply by going vegan. If you adopt a diet strictly of greens and fruit, I worry that you may be unnecessarily hungry and be tempted to abandon your chosen vegan lifestyle.

Prior to going vegan in May of this year, I had been eating a relatively Mediterranean-like diet which was largely plants but allowed some animal products. I was already somewhat trim from the (somewhat) healthy diet and the fact that I do four pretty intense cardio sessions per week. However, when I went vegan, it was like someone flipped a switch and the remaining fat on my body just melted away.

My current diet is something like a cross between Dr. Fuhrman's diet and Dr. John McDougall's diet. For lunch I always eat a huge salad with at least a cup of beans mixed in for protein. For dinner I usually have something more from Dr. McDougall's diet, with a fair amount of "starch". I want to emphasize that I have found it very easy to maintain a very trim weight using this combination. As no whey jose said, try to find an eating plan you can stick to for the long haul.
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#5 Old 08-31-2015, 07:34 AM
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I became vegetarian about 5 months ago and have lost 50 pounds. My breakfast is a fruit smoothie and lunch and snacks are raw veggies and fruit. I eat cooked food at night with my family like steamed veggies and beans. Since going 75 percent Raw my weight is dropping even faster now. Fruit is high in calories and can sustain you throughout the day. High water content foods which can only come from fruits and veggies will peel the weight off like a ripe banana. I've got another 20 to go too so here's to vigilence and success.
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#6 Old 08-31-2015, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by silva View Post
Why not simply stick to Dr. Furhmans eating plan?
I have the book, and if you eat the whole foods he advocates you will lose weight- and then stay at your right weight.
I don't know how much you want to lose, but if you eat the calories you need to maintain your ideal weight, you'll start losing the excess! You won't need to play with calories or adjust.
I did follow his advice for a couple years and did very well. I will say when you lose the sugar you lose your craving. I'm so sorry I ever strayed, but I love to cook bake and eat. I'm now finding my way back

Lentils, beans, whole grains, leafy and all the other veggies and fruits. Done. You need the range of foods to get all your nutrition.

Don't forget spices ! I use tumeric and black pepper every day, and it's tremendous for keeping arthritis away. Well, giving up dairy is the best thing for that. Cinnamon, garlic, ginger, cumin, they're all great for reducing blood pressure and lowering bad cholesterol.
I wish I knew more about herbs. I've started reading up on their role in helping enzyme production to help digestion.

A good tip-- start your day with a tablespoon of lemon juice or apple cider vinegar in a glass of room temp water. That will help digestion. I have found that it's a lack of acid that causes digestion problems. taking antiacids is not good

Thanks for your feedback, Silva. I'm having a problem with Eat to Live, however. I'm finding that grains cause me to have cravings. I can eat enough oatmeal, 9-grain cereals, and even Ezekiel sprouted-grain bread to keep from losing weight! I can eat enough beans, fruits, yams, Winter squash and between-meal snacks to keep from losing weight! I think I'm not normal because I'm 71 y/o. I'm retired. I don't exercise much. I have a low metabolism and high body fat %, which causes insulin-insensitivity; and I also have sleep apnea, which causes hormone imbalance and Leptin insensitivity.


I believe my biggest problem, however, is social isolation. Since I quit AA, OA, Alanon I find that I have no social activities and no telephone numbers to call. I don't seem to get much support from posting on the internet, but I'm hoping it could work well enough to help me lose some weight! For example, when I was in AA, if I wanted a drink I could call my sponsor/mentor or a list of 5 or 6 other supportive friends and ask them to talk me out of having a beer and a pizza. They would say, "Cut the beer and eat the pizza." Or I could go to an AA meeting and hear all kinds of horror stories from people who had drinking problems and that would help me to decide not to drink.

But when I became a vegan all that stopped. Alcoholics apparently feel threatened by vegans, because alcoholics use ice cream, pizza, fried chicken, BBQ, etc., etc., etc. to help with the cravings for alcohol--and they get angry when I say there is something wrong with eating any of their "comfort foods." They say, "Well, I'm not going to be arrested for driving fat, but I could be arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol!" And that ends the argument for them! They don't care about heart disease, cancer or diabetes. They just take a pill--or a bottle of pills and that is all they care about disease! That pill is supposed to take the place of a healthy lifestyle! They care about alcohol, and they are in militant denial about everything else! So I eventually quit AA because it was actually contributing to my cancer, diabetes and heart disease!

Now that I have no friends, support or social activities, I tend to stay home and eat for recreation, relaxation, comfort and entertainment...or just out of boredom and isolation. And that's the reason I'm not losing weight on Eat to Live.

In fact, I didn't sleep well last night and right now I'd love to have a coffee (cream and sugar). Coffee causes a kind of acid stomach and low blood sugar for me and eventually leads to sugar cravings and processed food cravings, etc.

So that's the reason I'm considering "tightening up on ETL." The Gorilla Diet would allow me to eat all I want, and I could still lose weight--even with lots of between-meal snacks or all-day eating! That's what sounds good to me, because I cannot find anything I'm interested in, frankly. I'm depressed about living alone, in poverty, on social security...with no car, no hobbies, no friends and no interests. My only motivation right now is cancer, diabetes and heart disease. I don't want to go to a nursing home, and lots of obesity-related, chronic, degenerative diseases would be a sure ticket, I'm positive of that.


Say! Why don't you go back to eating ETL? If you regret ever leaving, why don't you go back? In fact, I'm still a Gold Member on Dr.F.com, but I've been having trouble for so long that people have begun to ignore me (I think the fact that I was an alcoholic when I first showed up also didn't help my communication with nutritarians).
R
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#7 Old 08-31-2015, 11:42 AM
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"...as does an occassional indulgence."

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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
It strikes me as unnecessarily restrictive to eat nothing but greens and fruit. You aren't a gorilla! Beans, grains, tofu, and a variety of veggies have their place in a healthy diet, as does the occasional indulgence. The aim is to settle into a diet you can realistically sustain for life.

Say! Now that's my kind of recovery program! By my definition, "occasional" means "any time I feel like it." What's more, "indulgence" means "anything I want, whenever I want it."


I appreciate your advice, Jose, but I have just been explaining so Silva that I've already tried "Beans, grains, tofu and a variety of veggies...." I could lose weight that way when I was young and active, but I don't seem to be able to do it now because I'm 71 y/o, inactive, isolated, bored, etc. and I use food for an "escape." I've just been telling Silva that I've already tried it, and I find that I can actually gain weight on all the things you mentioned as good, healthy food! I seem to be an exception. I don't seem to be "normal." I don't seem to be "like other people." For one thing, I'm an ex-alcoholic; an addict. I choose to search for some means of self-gratification whenever I'm restless, irritable or discontented...and that's what I am all the time--so I wind up eating all the time, if you give me the excuses that you just gave me!


I'm thinking that I don't like greens enough that I will eat them when I'm not hungry. On the other hand, I will eat ripe fruit, boiled yams, baked squash or a bowl of bean soup until I weigh 300 lbs!


So what I'm really saying with The Gorilla Diet is that I can start out with an extreme diet--like nothing but greens, salads, green smoothies...and let my weight loss determine when and how much other food I eat. If I'm losing so much weight that I might shrivel up, then I could eat some "...beans, grains, tofu and a variety of veggies," as you suggest.


So how do you feel about that approach? Is that sensible?
Ron
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#8 Old 08-31-2015, 12:06 PM
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I could not agree more. Why don't you do as others have suggested and follow Dr. Fuhrman's plan? Believe me, once you replace the animal products with a whole-food, plant-based diet, the pounds will gradually come off. Why? Always remember--a gram of fat contains twice the calories of a gram of protein or a gram of carbohydrates. Since most plant foods contain so little fat, you will be cutting your calories in half simply by going vegan. If you adopt a diet strictly of greens and fruit, I worry that you may be unnecessarily hungry and be tempted to abandon your chosen vegan lifestyle.

Prior to going vegan in May of this year, I had been eating a relatively Mediterranean-like diet which was largely plants but allowed some animal products. I was already somewhat trim from the (somewhat) healthy diet and the fact that I do four pretty intense cardio sessions per week. However, when I went vegan, it was like someone flipped a switch and the remaining fat on my body just melted away.

My current diet is something like a cross between Dr. Fuhrman's diet and Dr. John McDougall's diet. For lunch I always eat a huge salad with at least a cup of beans mixed in for protein. For dinner I usually have something more from Dr. McDougall's diet, with a fair amount of "starch". I want to emphasize that I have found it very easy to maintain a very trim weight using this combination. As no whey jose said, try to find an eating plan you can stick to for the long haul.

Thanks for telling me about your personal experience, Bob. That makes it somewhat easier for me to respond.


For the past two years I've been cycling back and forth between Dr. Fuhrman and Dr. McDougall's diets. I've been on both the sites and I'm kind of a recognized failure on both, because I seem to have more cravings than most people and I seem to have less luck sticking with the diets. Now I think the reason for this problem I have is that I'm an addict; and ex-alcoholic. You may call it an eating disorder, or perhaps a mental/emotional disorder, or maybe even one of those weird conditions caused by "genes" or "aging." All the recipes on Fuhrman that have stuff like Vanilla Almond Milk, cocoa, corn tortillas, mustard and some of the salad dressings, salsas, sauces or marinades cause me to have cravings. All the "starch" on McDougall, like boiled yams, baked squash; and the fruits, like grapes, bananas, mangos, melons also cause me to have cravings. I can eat them until I gain weight, or I can eat them until I decide to have something with "just a little bit more sugar," etc. Before you know it, I'm off into binging. I'm addicted to food; any and all food!


So I'm thinking that I could start simply, with just salads and green smoothies, and if I lose more than a pound a day; if my ribs begin to show too much; or if I get so weak I can't get out of bed, then I could add some "starch" to my salad, or some beans to my salad, or find some way to get even more calories--like a cup of rice with stir-fried veggies. And if I lose too much weight, I could always add in even more calories!


On the other hand, I may actually have to water fast a few days to get my weight loss started! But my point is that I'm willing to let my results determine my diet, rather than continuing to follow the Fuhrman and McDougall plans that haven't actually worked for me for the past two years!


Does that sound sensible? I hear your advice. It sounds reasonable--based on your experience and your metabolism! But I don't do 4 cardio workouts a week! I don't do much of anything, really, but lay around and be retired all day!


Ron
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#9 Old 08-31-2015, 12:22 PM
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Hi, Danny Boy!

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I became vegetarian about 5 months ago and have lost 50 pounds. My breakfast is a fruit smoothie and lunch and snacks are raw veggies and fruit. I eat cooked food at night with my family like steamed veggies and beans. Since going 75 percent Raw my weight is dropping even faster now. Fruit is high in calories and can sustain you throughout the day. High water content foods which can only come from fruits and veggies will peel the weight off like a ripe banana. I've got another 20 to go too so here's to vigilence and success.


It is beginning to sound like I'm not being honest with you guys. Or maybe I'm not being honest with myself. Or maybe it sounds like I don't have the social support, the activities, the vigilance, metabolism and perseverance that you guys have. Or maybe for the past two years I have become so discouraged with my lack of results that I decide to binge....


Actually, it is often not a conscious decision at all! Like I'm just walking past an all-you-can-eat buffet and I decide to stop in and eat all the grease & processed poison that I can hold! I can't explain it. Something is causing me to have a different experience with this problem than you people are having. Actually, I have had good days; good weeks, but I've never had a good month! I've never made it past 14 days! For some reason I always twist off, blow up, lose it, or relapse right around 14 days. My record is actually 15 days, which is two weeks plus one day!


So I'm thinking that maybe a black-and-white plan that requires the ultimate in vigilance, attention and devotion, one day at a time, might be the solution for me!


I truly hear the advice, and I thank you kindly for your support, but I hope you don't mind if I try this idea for a few days, weeks or a month to see if it might help. I've already tried Fuhrman, McDougall, Hyman, Esselstyne, Ornish and Pritikin!!! I'm a real hard case!


I think The Gorilla Diet could be just what I need because it is so strict that it requires constant mindfulness to avoid even eating a grape!


Ron
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#10 Old 08-31-2015, 03:07 PM
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It is beginning to sound like I'm not being honest with you guys. Or maybe I'm not being honest with myself. Or maybe it sounds like I don't have the social support, the activities, the vigilance, metabolism and perseverance that you guys have. Or maybe for the past two years I have become so discouraged with my lack of results that I decide to binge....


Actually, it is often not a conscious decision at all! Like I'm just walking past an all-you-can-eat buffet and I decide to stop in and eat all the grease & processed poison that I can hold! I can't explain it. Something is causing me to have a different experience with this problem than you people are having. Actually, I have had good days; good weeks, but I've never had a good month! I've never made it past 14 days! For some reason I always twist off, blow up, lose it, or relapse right around 14 days. My record is actually 15 days, which is two weeks plus one day!


So I'm thinking that maybe a black-and-white plan that requires the ultimate in vigilance, attention and devotion, one day at a time, might be the solution for me!


I truly hear the advice, and I thank you kindly for your support, but I hope you don't mind if I try this idea for a few days, weeks or a month to see if it might help. I've already tried Fuhrman, McDougall, Hyman, Esselstyne, Ornish and Pritikin!!! I'm a real hard case!


I think The Gorilla Diet could be just what I need because it is so strict that it requires constant mindfulness to avoid even eating a grape!


Ron
Hi V98036,
A grape has like 3 calories. You need to eat healthy to feed your body's needs, so you don't get so hungry that you go binge at a buffet. That's how the weight gain happens!

Your body is starving, eating 900 calories of greens and grapes a day, so naturally, in a weak moment, your body's needs will win out and you'll eat 2000 calories of junk in 5 minutes. In addition, during the times you are eating very low calorie, your body thinks there is little food available, so it stores everything it can as fat. Then when you eat normally, blam, weight gain.

My advice? Pick an eating plan, say Furman's, and stick to it, but do not restrict yourself. Eat normal-sized portions, not tiny or huge. Have the food available, and take the time to prepare and cook good food. Feed your senses, you have time. Enjoy the food. And take a walk each day. Outside, under the sky. Look around, at the birds, the trees, the green. It is good for your heart, mind, body, and soul.

Also, look up meetup.com in your area, plug in vegetarian or vegan meetups. You might meet someone awesome!
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#11 Old 08-31-2015, 09:50 PM
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Ron,

Go ahead and give the Gorilla Diet a try. We are rooting for you to be successful.

It would really help if you could find a way to get some exercise a couple of times a week. It would improve both your physical health and mental outlook.

Are there any senior centers near you? If so, perhaps you could contact the staff there and find out if there are any walking groups nearby which you can join.

In my area there are several shopping malls which allow individuals access before regular business hours so that they can "mall walk". Many senior citizens take advantage of this.

Good luck. Post often and let us know how you are doing.
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#12 Old 09-01-2015, 03:27 AM
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Say! Now that's my kind of recovery program! By my definition, "occasional" means "any time I feel like it." What's more, "indulgence" means "anything I want, whenever I want it."


I appreciate your advice, Jose, but I have just been explaining so Silva that I've already tried "Beans, grains, tofu and a variety of veggies...." I could lose weight that way when I was young and active, but I don't seem to be able to do it now because I'm 71 y/o, inactive, isolated, bored, etc. and I use food for an "escape." I've just been telling Silva that I've already tried it, and I find that I can actually gain weight on all the things you mentioned as good, healthy food! I seem to be an exception. I don't seem to be "normal." I don't seem to be "like other people." For one thing, I'm an ex-alcoholic; an addict. I choose to search for some means of self-gratification whenever I'm restless, irritable or discontented...and that's what I am all the time--so I wind up eating all the time, if you give me the excuses that you just gave me!


I'm thinking that I don't like greens enough that I will eat them when I'm not hungry. On the other hand, I will eat ripe fruit, boiled yams, baked squash or a bowl of bean soup until I weigh 300 lbs!


So what I'm really saying with The Gorilla Diet is that I can start out with an extreme diet--like nothing but greens, salads, green smoothies...and let my weight loss determine when and how much other food I eat. If I'm losing so much weight that I might shrivel up, then I could eat some "...beans, grains, tofu and a variety of veggies," as you suggest.


So how do you feel about that approach? Is that sensible?
Ron
I'm a recovered addict, too. I know this isn't a popular opinion among recovered addicts, but NA's obsessive focus on the inevitable and unwieldy nature of my "disease" made life without a crutch much harder for me than it needed to be. I started defining myself as "An Addict" and believing that I am wired differently from most people, that there's some force beyond my control which dictates how I behave around drugs, food, cigarettes. Well, there isn't. I am no less capable of controlling my desires than anyone else. I don't think I fully appreciated this until very recently, when I discovered that I was pregnant and gave up smoking-- something that I had determined I could never do, something I had tried to do many times with no success thanks to my "disease"-- immediately, on the spot, effortlessly. All it took was a good enough reason to shift my focus away from myself. Obviously, you aren't going to get pregnant, but the life you're describing seems very lonely and aimless. If you have nothing of any importance in your life, what motivation could you possibly have to stop binge eating? I agree with the other suggestions to meet people, make friends, take up new hobbies, try some light physical activities. Volunteer to help others, maybe feeding the hungry or walking dogs at a shelter. As long as your time is spent thinking about yourself and your past, feeling increasingly bored and listless, things won't improve for you.

I also want to stress that, no matter how much you may want to lose weight, adopting an extremely restrictive diet is never a healthy solution. You need to consume the proper nutrients to keep your body functioning, full stop. Your health is so much more important than your weight. If you do adopt a diet of any kind, I urge you to keep track of your intake of necessary vitamins and other nutrients to be certain you're getting enough. There are free online food trackers you can use.

I wish you the best of luck, genuinely.
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#13 Old 09-01-2015, 03:51 AM
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it will cost a fortune and you will have to eat constantly. easier to add some cooked starches like sweet potato and legumes. why not just eat more leaves than previously? i see no reason to go beyond a large lettuce based salad plus a serving or two of cooked greens which is basically what i do.
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#14 Old 09-02-2015, 02:46 PM
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Actually, I'm desperate!

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it will cost a fortune and you will have to eat constantly. easier to add some cooked starches like sweet potato and legumes. why not just eat more leaves than previously? i see no reason to go beyond a large lettuce based salad plus a serving or two of cooked greens which is basically what i do.
Actually, I'm willing to try anything--even something different than what I've been doing! I've been trying to do a slow and stead vegan diet--with occasional "cheating" and it hasn't worked for me for the past two years! I was 190 lbs. two years ago, and I was 205 two weeks ago! I'm down to 195 today.

But the thing that really makes me afraid of the "easy does it approach" is that I have obstructive sleep apnea--and it is killing me! So when this problem becomes a matter of life and death, at that point, I'm willing to "get serious"!

Ron
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#15 Old 09-03-2015, 02:17 PM
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Hey, Jose!

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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
I'm a recovered addict, too. I know this isn't a popular opinion among recovered addicts, but NA's obsessive focus on the inevitable and unwieldy nature of my "disease" made life without a crutch much harder for me than it needed to be. I started defining myself as "An Addict" and believing that I am wired differently from most people, that there's some force beyond my control which dictates how I behave around drugs, food, cigarettes. Well, there isn't. I am no less capable of controlling my desires than anyone else. I don't think I fully appreciated this until very recently, when I discovered that I was pregnant and gave up smoking-- something that I had determined I could never do, something I had tried to do many times with no success thanks to my "disease"-- immediately, on the spot, effortlessly. All it took was a good enough reason to shift my focus away from myself. Obviously, you aren't going to get pregnant, but the life you're describing seems very lonely and aimless. If you have nothing of any importance in your life, what motivation could you possibly have to stop binge eating? I agree with the other suggestions to meet people, make friends, take up new hobbies, try some light physical activities. Volunteer to help others, maybe feeding the hungry or walking dogs at a shelter. As long as your time is spent thinking about yourself and your past, feeling increasingly bored and listless, things won't improve for you.

I also want to stress that, no matter how much you may want to lose weight, adopting an extremely restrictive diet is never a healthy solution. You need to consume the proper nutrients to keep your body functioning, full stop. Your health is so much more important than your weight. If you do adopt a diet of any kind, I urge you to keep track of your intake of necessary vitamins and other nutrients to be certain you're getting enough. There are free online food trackers you can use.

I wish you the best of luck, genuinely.

I thought I responded to this reply yesterday, but now I can't find the response. Maybe I'm getting demented!


I agree that there is a kind of brainwash in AA and other 12-Step programs to accept powerlessness over alcohol, and even people, places and things--including the Russian Army, the local police department, my boss, the state government, etc., etc., etc. And I agree with this to a certain extent. And I'm sure you do too!


But I think it has gone too far when "recovered alcoholics" put so much emphasis on sobriety that they are willing to eat, and drink and smoke all to the things that cause cancer, diabetes, heart disease simply because these comfort foods help them cope with their cravings for alcohol. They apparently feel that the discussion, "Now about health...." on pg 133 of the AA Big Book is an acceptable way to cope with alcohol cravings. And then when they get sick, they can go to a doctor and take pills!


Well this leads to "recovered alcoholics" who take 28 prescription drugs for 28 medical problems. And these people evidently sincerely feel that medications are the way to health and wellness.


I believe this kind of thinking is stupidity. I believe this sort of thing is really denial in disguise. It is a pretext for continuing a food addiction.


So what I'm trying to do is to keep reality and truth in perspective. I am (to a certain extent) powerless over alcohol and other addictions, like food; but that doesn't mean that I am so powerless that I have to eat ice cream so I won't drink alcohol!


I do have a problem with self-centeredness, as you mentioned and it is so bad that it is difficult for me to get out of myself long enough to turn away from food. My life is lonely and aimless right now for many reasons: 1). I'm retired. I don't work and I don't want the stress of working right now. 2). I have relied on AA for my entire social life for quite some time now (6 years) and then abruptly quit AA because I found it to be counterproductive to my veganism and efforts to lose weight and make a healthy lifestyle change. And, 3). I have obstructive sleep apnea, bipolar mood disorder, acid reflux, diverticulitis, arthritis, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc., etc., etc., to the point that I cannot sleep, exercise, work or socialize--because I have one foot in the nursing home! I cannot live an active, goal--oriented life--because I don't have the energy or the health.


Therefore, my only focus at this time is reversing my obesity-related, chronic, degenerative diseases--or else! And that makes me pretty much an introvert at this time. I can't think of anything that is more important right now than "my problems"! I need to reverse these diseases--and that's all I have on my plate right now!


Any suggestions?
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#16 Old 09-03-2015, 02:29 PM
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I thought I responded to this reply yesterday, but now I can't find the response. Maybe I'm getting demented!


I agree that there is a kind of brainwash in AA and other 12-Step programs to accept powerlessness over alcohol, and even people, places and things--including the Russian Army, the local police department, my boss, the state government, etc., etc., etc. And I agree with this to a certain extent. And I'm sure you do too!


But I think it has gone too far when "recovered alcoholics" put so much emphasis on sobriety that they are willing to eat, and drink and smoke all to the things that cause cancer, diabetes, heart disease simply because these comfort foods help them cope with their cravings for alcohol. They apparently feel that the discussion, "Now about health...." on pg 133 of the AA Big Book is an acceptable way to cope with alcohol cravings. And then when they get sick, they can go to a doctor and take pills!


Well this leads to "recovered alcoholics" who take 28 prescription drugs for 28 medical problems. And these people evidently sincerely feel that medications are the way to health and wellness.


I believe this kind of thinking is stupidity. I believe this sort of thing is really denial in disguise. It is a pretext for continuing a food addiction.


So what I'm trying to do is to keep reality and truth in perspective. I am (to a certain extent) powerless over alcohol and other addictions, like food; but that doesn't mean that I am so powerless that I have to eat ice cream so I won't drink alcohol!


I do have a problem with self-centeredness, as you mentioned and it is so bad that it is difficult for me to get out of myself long enough to turn away from food. My life is lonely and aimless right now for many reasons: 1). I'm retired. I don't work and I don't want the stress of working right now. 2). I have relied on AA for my entire social life for quite some time now (6 years) and then abruptly quit AA because I found it to be counterproductive to my veganism and efforts to lose weight and make a healthy lifestyle change. And, 3). I have obstructive sleep apnea, bipolar mood disorder, acid reflux, diverticulitis, arthritis, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc., etc., etc., to the point that I cannot sleep, exercise, work or socialize--because I have one foot in the nursing home! I cannot live an active, goal--oriented life--because I don't have the energy or the health.


Therefore, my only focus at this time is reversing my obesity-related, chronic, degenerative diseases--or else! And that makes me pretty much an introvert at this time. I can't think of anything that is more important right now than "my problems"! I need to reverse these diseases--and that's all I have on my plate right now!


Any suggestions?
God, that's rough. I wish I had some good advice for you, but I don't.
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#17 Old 09-03-2015, 02:39 PM
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Hey, Bob!

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Ron,

Go ahead and give the Gorilla Diet a try. We are rooting for you to be successful.

It would really help if you could find a way to get some exercise a couple of times a week. It would improve both your physical health and mental outlook.

Are there any senior centers near you? If so, perhaps you could contact the staff there and find out if there are any walking groups nearby which you can join.

In my area there are several shopping malls which allow individuals access before regular business hours so that they can "mall walk". Many senior citizens take advantage of this.

Good luck. Post often and let us know how you are doing.

Actually, Bob, I am still "tapering off" a low-fat, raw vegan diet that allows me to eat so much fruit, beans, grains, and high-carbohydrate veggies (like yams and Winter squash) that I have not been able to lose weight--I've actually gained weight--in the past few months!


But my sleep apnea is so uncomfortable and is making my life so unmanageable that I need to go "to any lengths" to get some weight off (my doctor said that if I could lose 10% of my body weight, it would reduce my sleep apnea symptoms 25%! And I need to do that!)


I've tried exercise. Yesterday I walked 6 miles to the YMCA and worked out for 30 minutes; then rode the bus home. But that was preceded and followed by a night without restful, restorative sleep, due to my sleep apnea. So that today I'm so tired that I could not get out of bed before noon! The reason that happens is that the body goes through stages of sleep: 1, 2, 3, 4 and REM sleep. Each stage has a reason to exist and a job to do. But I have such problems with my CPAP that I cannot sleep more than one hour without waking up to breathe, to adjust my mask, to change positions on my arthritic hip, or due to the traffic noise outside my apartment window.


Therefore, my body cannot do the rebuilding and recovering that is necessary in sleep. As a result, I have hormone imbalances, enzyme deficiencies, metabolism anomalies, and emotional problems that effect my cravings for sugar, my metabolism of sugar, my ability to rebuild muscle, etc., etc., etc.


So I'm dealing with more of a problem than most people; and, frankly I've been dealing with these problems now for long enough that I need to go ahead and resolve them and quit fiddle-farting around with my health and my life.


That's why I'm willing to try this desperate approach! Accordingly, I'm not willing to throw food out, but when I finish my grains, I don't intend to buy more. When I finish my beans, I don't intend to buy more. When I finish my high-carbohydrate veggie, I don't intend to buy more.


Soon I hope to be at a place where I have only greens and fruit in my 'fridge and I go to the market daily to buy one (1) veggie to add to my salad (depending upon the level of my calorie deficiency, in order to achieve a maximum weight loss in a short period of time.


This will be a "neat trick"! I hope to keep you posted, and I hope you would support my efforts.


Thanks.


Ron
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#18 Old 09-03-2015, 02:56 PM
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Just accept reality the way it is! That's all anybody can do. Right?

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God, that's rough. I wish I had some good advice for you, but I don't.

Well, everybody has to die one day. You too! So we're both in the same boat! How do you plan to handle this situation when you face it? I know that you're planning on giving birth; bringing new life into this world; teaching, building, protecting and enjoying life--for quite some time--but Reality and Truth both say that you will also die some day.


And that is nothing to be sad about; nothing to run from...there's nowhere to run!


The chance I would like to have is simply the opportunity to do everything I can to overcome this temporary situation, temporarily, if I can! I'm 71 y/o and I might like to live to be 81, if I can--but I'm not willing to check into a nursing home to do that! If I can't reverse my diseases then I'm ready to voluntarily check out, rather than be dragged kicking and screaming into a nursing home, where I would be doomed to a horrible death by means of abuse, neglect, and even some exploitive medical procedures, for money! No thanks!


The great favor you could do me, if you care to, would be to talk about Reality and Truth, to the best of your ability, and then walk like you talk.
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#19 Old 09-03-2015, 03:20 PM
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Very sensible! Very sensible!

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Hi V98036,
A grape has like 3 calories. You need to eat healthy to feed your body's needs, so you don't get so hungry that you go binge at a buffet. That's how the weight gain happens!

Your body is starving, eating 900 calories of greens and grapes a day, so naturally, in a weak moment, your body's needs will win out and you'll eat 2000 calories of junk in 5 minutes. In addition, during the times you are eating very low calorie, your body thinks there is little food available, so it stores everything it can as fat. Then when you eat normally, blam, weight gain.

My advice? Pick an eating plan, say Furman's, and stick to it, but do not restrict yourself. Eat normal-sized portions, not tiny or huge. Have the food available, and take the time to prepare and cook good food. Feed your senses, you have time. Enjoy the food. And take a walk each day. Outside, under the sky. Look around, at the birds, the trees, the green. It is good for your heart, mind, body, and soul.

Also, look up meetup.com in your area, plug in vegetarian or vegan meetups. You might meet someone awesome!


LedBoots,


That sounds very sensible! Very sensible! I think that's what happened when I accidentally walked in to that all-I-could-eat buffet! I think that's why I have been losing 10 lbs. and gaining 15 lbs. for the last year or so. This weight loss problem is very tricky because there are lots of crazy ideas and lots of misinformation out there! I believe that even my doctor and nutritionist are confused!


My problem, however, is that I can actually gain weight on Fuhrman's ETL diet! That's probably because I eat for recreation, entertainment, escape, etc. But Dr.Fuhrman says that it is worse to diet and binge and yo-yo than to just eat SAD! So I need to stop that, and I think the way you describe would be the best way to do that...except that I've already tried Fuhrman! I gained weight on it because I snacked between meals.


So now I'm thinking that I need to find foods that do not stimulate my desire enough that I want to eat between meals. So I'm gradually tapering off the stuff that stimulates my palate the most. And I hope that, little by little, I will settle on the diet that does not cause me to have cravings and does not contain such "good things to eat" that I choose to eat as a pastime.


And when I find that diet, I will call it The Gorilla Diet, because it will be my own invention--not Dr.F's prescription. It will be my own invention, using the principles Dr.F. describes in ETL.


And I would appreciate having your help to do that, please.


Thanks.
Ron
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#20 Old 09-04-2015, 12:47 AM
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Well, everybody has to die one day. You too! So we're both in the same boat! How do you plan to handle this situation when you face it? I know that you're planning on giving birth; bringing new life into this world; teaching, building, protecting and enjoying life--for quite some time--but Reality and Truth both say that you will also die some day.
Man, you must be fun at parties!

I'm joking. I think it's healthy to face the reality of one's mortality. I would be lying if I said I wasn't scared by the thought, but the best I can do is to live my life with as much integrity as I can muster and hope that the fear fades a bit as I age (and hope that I age, I guess!)
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#21 Old 09-04-2015, 12:08 PM
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I am not in recovery but my of my friends are. I also tried OA at one time. It wasn't for me. I agree with your comments.Some of my friends who are alcoholics have said simular things but saying it isn't going solve your problems. You have to learn to deal with them. Right now you are spinning your wheels. You have to do something. Quit talking. I suggest get moving. Walking is good. It helps with sleep.It is hard to stay awake when you are tired. I know I sound nasty but I don't mean to be. You have to take care of yourself and right now you not.
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#22 Old 09-04-2015, 12:22 PM
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No need to worry. That will change when you turn 30.

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Man, you must be fun at parties!

I'm joking. I think it's healthy to face the reality of one's mortality. I would be lying if I said I wasn't scared by the thought, but the best I can do is to live my life with as much integrity as I can muster and hope that the fear fades a bit as I age (and hope that I age, I guess!)


Actually, you don't have to worry about any of that right now. I wasn't trying to scare you. But I assure you, when you turn 30 you may notice that some of your ideas about life may change. Then there are more changes when you pass 40, 50, 60, 70.... I've seen some people in their 80's that made me think, "God, I hope I don't live that long!"


When your back hurts, you can't sleep...acid reflux, sleep apnea...then you begin to think, "How can I get out of this situation"? That's where I'm at. A few days ago we had a power failure here in Lynnwood and I could not use my CPAP for sleep--so I couldn't sleep! Worse yet, when I tried to sleep I would wake up gasping for breath! That causes not only brain cell death, but problems for every cell in the body!


That's why I'm different. I'm not here to learn how to make good-tasting vegan recipes. I'm willing to eat only greens and fruit, if it will give me a rapid weight-loss and reverse all my obesity-related, chronic, degenerative diseases.


I'm not here to find vegan friends and activities in the Lynnwood area. My life has descended to the point where I am working to survive 24/7. Dance lessons, parties, coffees, games, etc. really don't help my situation much. In fact, I have recently turned down some offers from female carnivores to go out for coffee, out to eat, or to participate in "carnivore support groups," etc.


I just don't have time for that stuff. What I would really enjoy would be sitting in a room full of people discussing "entire abstinence from SAD" the way that they discuss abstinence from alcohol in AA. But I quit AA because those people are in militant denial about comfort food.


I also sense that this group is made up of young people, who are interested in more money, material things, power, status; more sex, entertainment, relationships, attachments, etc. I'm interested in simplifying my life. So I see the reason that old farts like me get put out to pasture by young folks like you. It's only natural.


But when I come to the senior center to use the computers here, there is sometimes an 80 y/o woman who sits at another computer who is typing her Last Will and Testament. She's studying nursing homes. She's talking with her family about putting the family finances and affairs in order. It doesn't blow her mind if I bring up a subject like the Death With Dignity Law we have here in Washington state. So you see, I'm different. I'm not young.


I'm interested in discussing preparations for the uvulapharangeal resection and removal of my soft palate that may happen in a couple of months. But that's not the kind of conversation that wins friends or influences people at parties. Sorry, but I can't help myself.
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#23 Old 09-04-2015, 12:40 PM
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Everyone here is not young. I am 57 years old, vegan 11 years, vegetarian a few before that. There are people here older than me, older than you, too.

If you want to starve yourself with greens and fruits in hopes of losing weight, help yourself. What you are actually going to lose is muscle, which is difficult enough to keep as we age.

You said you lost 10 lbs in 2 weeks? Too fast for someone around 200 lbs. One to two pounds a week is sustainable and not unhealthy.

Go for a walk! Lift some light weights! Breathe, meditate, go to dance classes at your senior center, do something fun.

I was at an outdoor music fest recently, and was of course dancing. I saw a woman about my age tapping her foot and looking wistful, so I waved her to come dance with us. She said No I am too old. I asked her how old, and we were just the same age! I pointed to my cousin, 2 years older. The woman then danced all night, laughing away.
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#24 Old 09-04-2015, 01:07 PM
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Hi, Mackiesgirl

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I am not in recovery but my of my friends are. I also tried OA at one time. It wasn't for me. I agree with your comments.Some of my friends who are alcoholics have said simular things but saying it isn't going solve your problems. You have to learn to deal with them. Right now you are spinning your wheels. You have to do something. Quit talking. I suggest get moving. Walking is good. It helps with sleep.It is hard to stay awake when you are tired. I know I sound nasty but I don't mean to be. You have to take care of yourself and right now you not.


I went to an OA meeting a few weeks ago and tried to tell them about Eat to Live, by Dr. Joel Fuhrman, M.D. I was saying that Eat to Live presents scientific, factual evidence and research to show that calorie reduction, controlling portion size, weighing and measuring high-calorie, low-nutrient foods does not work--and they interrupted me! They said I could not talk about "outside literature," unless it was OA-approved! They said they don't want to hear about scientific research, evidence and proof! They only want to hear how to moderate, manage and control SAD! They want to hear how to lose weight by cutting their chocolate cake in half, only eating "moderate amounts of SAD," etc. I decided right there that OA was not for me!


So I'm glad you're here, instead of an OA meeting!


Actually, I walked 6 miles to the Shoreline YMCA two days ago and did a workout for my back and stomach muscles, but I'm still sore because of it! When I exercise without restful, restorative sleep, my muscles get so sore and tired that I can hardly move! Sleep is necessary to "recover; to rebuild, to restore the body to a state of balance." But with sleep apnea, that doesn't happen for me.


Sleep apnea is a hopeless situation! I've been fighting it since 2009. In fact, I've been fighting not only sleep apnea, but the Veteran's Administration Hospital! You may have heard the national news a few months ago about veterans who died waiting for an appointment at the V.A.! That's the kind of administration I've been working with to solve my health problems! I heard in the news yesterday that they recently found 800,000 veterans who have died while waiting for healthcare. The V.A. has many tricks for ignoring people, because they don't have enough money to treat all the people with all the problems that come to them!


I've also discovered that sleep apnea causes sugar cravings, processed food cravings and comfort food cravings that normal people don't have. Sleep apnea causes hormone imbalances, metabolism anomalies (like building fat instead of muscle as a result of exercise)!


I've discovered that there are some situations in life that are, truly hopeless! There is a time to die. In some cases cancer, diabetes, heart disease are actually fatal! There comes a time when I may have to die--against my will!


I've been fighting 12 hours a night to get 6 or 7 hours sleep for the past 8 years! I've tried everything! I'm now requesting an operation from the V.A., which would remove the back of my throat and reduce the size of my tongue, so that I'll have more room to breathe when I sleep! It's called a uvulapharangeal resection and removal. They would cut out my whole soft palate!


I'm reaching the point where I realize, and accept, that what I can do is very limited, but I'm still going to try to do what I can. I don't actually talk much, because my computer time is limited. I'm on social security and can't afford a computer, so I walk to the senior center and the public library (no car either) for two hours of free computer time. The rest of my day is devoted to an effort to "get moving."


I'm sure this all sounds very "negative" to you, but for me it is part of the process of accepting Reality. I talk a couple of hours a day on free public computers, then I go back home and "get moving," to the best of my ability.


So I hope I don't leave you in a bad mood. The lesson for me is that I have to accept some things against my will. I have to learn how to take action with detachment from the results. I'm learning that not everything I do will get the results that I want--but I still have to do it--and it's better if I can do it without an expectation that I am going to be able to control the results of my actions.


That's a tough lesson to learn! Have you had any experience like that? Yet?
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#25 Old 09-04-2015, 02:05 PM
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Okay, I'll do that.

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Everyone here is not young. I am 57 years old, vegan 11 years, vegetarian a few before that. There are people here older than me, older than you, too.

If you want to starve yourself with greens and fruits in hopes of losing weight, help yourself. What you are actually going to lose is muscle, which is difficult enough to keep as we age.

You said you lost 10 lbs in 2 weeks? Too fast for someone around 200 lbs. One to two pounds a week is sustainable and not unhealthy.

Go for a walk! Lift some light weights! Breathe, meditate, go to dance classes at your senior center, do something fun.

I was at an outdoor music fest recently, and was of course dancing. I saw a woman about my age tapping her foot and looking wistful, so I waved her to come dance with us. She said No I am too old. I asked her how old, and we were just the same age! I pointed to my cousin, 2 years older. The woman then danced all night, laughing away.

Well, that sounds like a good idea, and I'm at the senior center, so I don't have any excuse not to check it out. I'm in the computer room, so I walked 15 feet to the front desk and picked up a calendar. It's a Summer calendar, so most of what is listed is already past, but there are some bus trips, bike trips, and boat trips still on the calendar for September.


As soon as I leave here I will walk back home, have a lunch of stir-fried veggies, a salad and some beans, onions, mushrooms, with fruit for dessert. While I digest my lunch for a couple of hours I plan to walk through the woods and around the lake behind my apartment. There are ducks there; turtles, birds, and homeless people! It's a good place to meditate about natural beauty, but it's still within range where I can hear the traffic from the highway!


After meditating, I will take a meal in my backpack and walk down the Interurban trail from the Lynnwood Transit Center to the Shoreline YMCA. I don't have a bicycle right now, but I will get one. The hike and bike trail here in WA is a beautiful ride and a beautiful walk. When I get to the Y I will probably be too tired to work out much, but I will work on my back and stomach muscles and concentrate on loosening up the joints that become arthritic when I'm inactive. I watch the news on the Nautilus equipment that has T.V. while I'm exercising. Then a bus trip back home about 8pm will leave me time to work on the message to my doctor about some CPAP equipment I want to try out. And hopefully, I should be in bed by 10pm.


If I do that, I can say that today has been a good day. Tomorrow I'll look into activities here at the Lynnwood Senior and take a bus to Edmonds to check out the activities there as well. I like the Snohomish Senior Center also. That's a good bus ride, and they have free computers and possibly some computer lessons.


But I don't think I have as much money as you do for trips, activities, etc. and I don't think I dance as well as you. If I want to play golf I have to go to the American Lake Veterans Administration Golf course in Lake City because they only charge Vets $12 to play there. I can take a boat ride any time I want for $4 on the ferry over to the islands off the coast of WA and I can go to Vancouver Canada on a day ferry (but I can't spend the night because of my CPAP). Perhaps I should get a bike ASAP so I can bike the San Juan Islands.


Yep! You're right. I need to begin enjoying life--because I don't have too much more of an opportunity to do that!


Thanks for your support. I appreciate the advice. 57 is pretty young! I wish I could be 57 again. And if you've been vegan for 11 years, you probably don't have all the diseases I have! Me? I spent the last 6 years in AA meetings--eating ice cream, pizza, cookies, coffee and lots of junk food--so I wouldn't get alcohol cravings! What I got was worse diseases than alcoholism (when you put them all together, they are worse than alcoholism alone)!


Have a good day!
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#26 Old 09-04-2015, 03:56 PM
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I generally view anything called "The [insert applicable descriptor] Diet" as a fad, and I'm not impressed by fads.
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#27 Old 09-05-2015, 04:11 AM
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I generally view anything called "The [insert applicable descriptor] Diet" as a fad, and I'm not impressed by fads.
I tend to consider politics and technology. Prior to the 1950s or so we did not produce highly processed high fat high sugar or salt refined grain garbage on a massive scale. And yet those foods are considered normal in our obesogenic environment. They should not be normal. They should be the fad. People who make those foods a large or even regular proportion of their intakes have a very unhealthy relationship with food.

What did the Okinawan centenarians eat? Mostly sweet potato, a little bit of white rice, some greens and onions, a handful of legumes and very little of anything else. No added oils. No nuts or seeds. No kgs of romaine lettuce, no 30 bananas a day. Their animal food intake was not zero but less than 5% of total calories. Very boring. But that's just about the healthiest diet we know of. Some people here would call that weird or unhealthy.

Our food supply has been so twisted for so long that we have a very distorted view of what constitutes normal, healthy, or fad.
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#28 Old 09-05-2015, 04:31 AM
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The Okinawan diet that you just detailed is not unhealthy. Rice, sweet potato, greens, legumes, and veggies sounds pretty healthy to me, actually.

Incidently I have an Okinawan friend who moved to the US in her 40's; she is now around your age. She is tiny, around 4'9, healthy as a horse, and really, really funny. One of my favorite people, she has hair down to her knees, still mostly black, that she can twist up into a bun in seconds with just a chopstick or a pencil to hold it up. She taught me how to use a wok and prepare tofu.

Ok, off topic I know, just thinking of my friend Sachiko.

Last edited by LedBoots; 09-05-2015 at 04:37 AM.
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#29 Old 09-05-2015, 02:43 PM
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Individual evidence

I'm not impressed by fads either. Everybody has to make his own decisions and choose his own path. I do sometimes get confused, or codependent, about politics and what other people are doing, but I usually make better progress when I learn from other people and do my own experiments. If somebody else succeeds that doesn't always mean that I can.

But when my own experience shows me how I am, I think I need to pay attention to that!
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#30 Old 09-05-2015, 02:55 PM
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My experiment yesterday

People have been telling me that I don't sound like I'm having a party! I'm not getting enough nutrition. My weight loss is not sustainable. Some people say I should do ETL. Others say I should go for a walk. One person said that a little indulgence is okay occasionally! Talk to women! Don't be so serious. Have some fun!

So I decided to lighten up. Yesterday I went for a walk down the InterUrban Trail to the Shoreline Y for a workout with light weights. But along the way I detoured over the Hwy 99 and stopped in at an Asian market for some Kebab Veggie. (It was dried seaweed, with white rice layered on top, then assorted veggies on top of that, and then rolled up and sliced like finger food. It proably contained sugar, salt and oil) Then I caught a bus to the rest of the way to the Y.

I did some light weights for my back . I tried to talk to some of the women there, but they
evidently saw me as their grandad, trying to put a move on them.

OOPPS! Out of time on this computer. ....to be continued.
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