An unpleasant conversation with my oldest friend. - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 08-04-2015, 12:01 AM
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An unpleasant conversation with my oldest friend.

The following is a text conversation I had with my oldest friend today. She did nothing but try to justify her actions the entire conversation.

Her: You don't even want to know what I ate today.

Me: I don't?

Her: Gyro

Me: I like falafel gyros myself. Mediterranean food is good. hummus is boss.

Her: Lol yea it's the first time I had lamb.... which uh if it makes you feel better I bought it from a cruelty free organic store.

Me: Can't say it does...

Her: Oh hey I wanted to ask you something! Why can't vegan's drink milk?

Me: because milk is for babies

Her: For babies?

Me: Yup, no animal drinks milk after infancy, it screws with digestion. Also factory farming and cruel practices.

Her: O.o my digestion is just fine. I drink 2 glasses a day. We get our dairy from a local farm.

Me: Ok, but take notice that a lot of people can't digest it?

Her: Lmao its like when people tell me not to feed milk to my dog, he loves it and has no problems. Although it is weird how I can totally digest milk, I heard its a mutation in some people. I'm a mutant lol, sorry you can't be a mutant too :'(

Me: Honestly I'm glad I'm not a "mutant." I couldn't look an animal in the face and say "Hey I love all animals but damn you're tasty." Or go up to a cow and say "hey sorry for killing your baby but I want to drink your tit juice."

Her: That's why I want my own cow someday. So I can milk it without torturing it.

Me: Well even so, how could you eat meat and look at that cow in the face.

Her: Not hard. Though I wish I didn't have to buy it from a store.

me: *sends her pics of cows and meat*

Her: ASH! I don't eat meat every meal, but I do eat meat. With my salary (shes a tech for windows making a **** ton of money) and my hours available in the day plus my food allergies it's hard for me to get what I need from a vegan diet, I NEED MEAT!! So I don't look at it as "yum a cow" I see the cow and appreciate the sacrifice it gave to keep me healthy.

Me: I still don't understand because I make NO MONEY AT ALL and have multiple food allergies and still get what I need. I guess its just hard for me to understand that, I don't mean to offend but you did bring this up.

her: Nuts make my throat swell, kale makes me vomit, and kiwi makes my lips numb and bananas give me a stomach ache.

me: Nuts are expensive so I avoid them, kale is bad for you anyway, I don't eat kiwi and I don't eat many bananas.

Her: I don't know how you can afford it, I bought ingredients for a small vegan meal and it cost me $100!!!

Me: I bought 2 weeks worth of food at a farmers market for 7 bucks...

Her: Which brings me to time! I would have to find a recipe I can actually eat, find a way to pervade it so the meal doesn't cost $25, then find time to make it, work hours a week, voluteer at the church, work as a temp president for WIT, school. and get 4 hours of sleep.

Me: crock pots are great..

Her: NO! Crock pots are the DEVIL!!! I refuse to use them because I have to get up early to prepare food.

Me: Then I don't know what the f*** to tell you.

Her: Exactly! :/

Me: Everything I've said you've come up with an excuse, I can't help.

Her: The majority of the food I eat is mostly on the go, I don't mean eating out, I mean microwave. But its what I can do, its cheap and affordable. I'm paying off student loans and going to school, plus it also helps I was raised on a farm, you ever been chased by a pig?? Chickens are mean too!

Me: Honestly IDK what to tell you because there's a way to get around all of that. Meat is pretty expensive and honestly if I could I would come over there and teach you how to pro-college student vegan things. But hey I guess that's just your lifestyle choice and I shouldn't stick my business in it because I don't want to lose a friend. You don't have to justify your lifestyle around me, you're my friend! But you asked me plain and simple why vegans don't drink milk and I gave you an answer. You don't have to justify your lifestyle why you eat meat or drink milk, but you damn sure can't tell me that you wan't to have a cow as an animal companion and not find it hard to look that cow in the face as you eat the flesh of it's family. That's like me having a child in the house while I pamper and love this child and grill his brother. It's a little ****ed up to me.

Her; I was serious about the milk thing, I wanted to know. Also yea it's my lifestyle and I can't just change it on a dime, it's like you asking someone to stop smoking. Whether it's good or bad, it isn't easy to just stop! Growing up with farmers and hunters, I can't just change that on a dime!!

me: I grew up with farmers and hunters and I literally changed within the course of 3 months. I don't mean to insult you but it doesn't make sense to me.

Her: I'm genuinely trying to understand you. I guess I could say this; I literally grew up with chickens and played with the chicks, but I knew one day they would be killed and eaten, so it's just normal yknow.

me: *horrified expression* THAT'S MESSED UP

Her: I just don't understand the concept of going vegan. It's like a religion. You're Pagan, I'm Christian, we'll never understand eachother's beliefs. I'm not trying to convert you but you understand right?

Me: .....................

I don't know what to say back to her....

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#2 Old 08-04-2015, 12:08 AM
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If you want to remain friends, you just have to agree to complete avoid this topic.


Rationally, she knows very well that killing animals for food is an unnecessary act of violence. People protect themselves from this understanding.

_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/
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#3 Old 08-04-2015, 01:48 AM
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"You don't even want to know what I ate today." *Then tells you anyway*
She's trying to get a rise out of you and it's working. Maybe she's not consciously aware she's doing it; maybe it's a sub-conscious cry for attention; but she's purposely bringing up something she knows your passionate about and trying to tear it apart in front of you. My honest opinion- if you value your friendship, respectfully, clearly, and non-passive aggressively call her out on it. The rest is up to her.
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#4 Old 08-04-2015, 02:56 AM
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First, you don't have to ever have a conversation with her about this topic again. You can totally do that and if you think that's wise, then never have this conversation with her again.

BUUUUUUUUT......

Here's what I'm getting from your friend, she's curious. But she's also invested in eating animals and their products. We were all invested in it at one point, we all said or thought some or all of the things she thought. You can judge her for that (and we ALL judge people, I mean some people might not judge other people but I think maybe they don't know how much fun it is), but I don't know whether showing her that you're judging her for it is going to help you get your message across.


So, as an example, when she told you this part-

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVeggieCat View Post

Her: I'm genuinely trying to understand you. I guess I could say this; I literally grew up with chickens and played with the chicks, but I knew one day they would be killed and eaten, so it's just normal yknow.

me: *horrified expression* THAT'S MESSED UP
Yeah it is messed up. But, I see it as.....From a young age, she's had the death of animals normalised for her. (And we've all had it normalised for us, especially those who interacted with animals)

So, the next time she says something like "Well, it's just normal for me"

You can say something like "Yeah, it was normal for me too, but then I really thought about it and I find that sad. I find it sad that it's 'normal' for animals to be killed, so we can eat them. So, that's why I don't eat them. Normal doesn't always equal right or good, it just means it happens often enough that we don't question it"
(Or however you want to put it)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVeggieCat View Post

Her: I just don't understand the concept of going vegan. It's like a religion. You're Pagan, I'm Christian, we'll never understand eachother's beliefs. I'm not trying to convert you but you understand right?

Me: .....................

I don't know what to say back to her....
This is what I would respond, but remember that ultimately you have to answer from your own mind and heart, it's always better to do that.

"We don't have different beliefs when it comes to animals. You don't believe it's okay to hurt an animal, right? If you saw someone punching a dog or a pig, you wouldn't be okay with that. Our beliefs are not different when it comes to animals, it's just our actions. I don't think you want to hurt animals, I think you don't know (yet) how to remove yourself from a system that has trained us all to ignore the suffering of animals. "


I mean, you COULD find some stuff about how Christians are actually meant to at least be vegetarian in the first place..... That supporting the meat industry is actually going against the 'role' God gave humans as stewards of the Earth (for so many reasons, like climate change, land degradation and over fishing of the oceans. That's before we even get into the human casualties of animal production)


I honestly think your friend's curiosity is something to indulge, if only from time to time (and when you feel okay with doing that) because it could lead to bigger changes. It may not and that's okay too. But that she's asking these questions, I like to see it as a good sign.

And as for 'easy' meals, why doesn't she trying going vegetarian first? That's what I did.

I ate Tasty Bite microwave meals (a lot of them are vegan). A stirfry with tofu is not that different from a stirfry with chicken. Spaghetti with mushrooms, chickpeas and lentils is a good change from using mince (OR she can use vego mince, if she's okay with wheat). There's three meals already. There's plenty of others.

Maybe she just needs you to send her some recipes for inspiration. It's a possibility, right?
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#5 Old 08-04-2015, 06:47 AM
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First of all, I really applaud everything you wrote and the frank but measured tone you were able to maintain. Second, she’s the one driving the conversation. Even if you’re banging your forehead against the keyboard, you know she values your input, and you’ve just told her a lot of things she might not have known before.

She: “But you understand, right?”

You, maybe: “Not the way you probably hope I do. I’ve been where you are and I know change is possible. But you have to want it, it only works if you want it. If you ever want it I’m here to help, and in any case I’m still your friend. You can always ask me questions. Just out of kindness, could you please not text me to tel me all about the animal you just ate. You’re my friend and you don’t want to bring me down, right?"
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Last edited by Joan Kennedy; 08-04-2015 at 06:55 AM.
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#6 Old 08-04-2015, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
her: Nuts make my throat swell, kale makes me vomit, and kiwi makes my lips numb and bananas give me a stomach ache.

me: Nuts are expensive so I avoid them, kale is bad for you anyway, I don't eat kiwi and I don't eat many bananas.
Quote:
Her: I don't know how you can afford it, I bought ingredients for a small vegan meal and it cost me $100!!!

Me: I bought 2 weeks worth of food at a farmers market for 7 bucks...
Quote:
Her: NO! Crock pots are the DEVIL!!! I refuse to use them because I have to get up early to prepare food.

Me: Then I don't know what the f*** to tell you.

Quote:
Her: I just don't understand the concept of going vegan. It's like a religion. You're Pagan, I'm Christian, we'll never understand eachother's beliefs.
Man, it always comes down to that "Let's agree to disagree" thing. I hate that.

If I walk into my living room and find TheVeggieCat eating my baby, am I supposed to go:

"Hey you! Stop that!"

"Who are you to tell me how to run my life?"

"But you're eating my baby!"

"Look, if you don't eat babies, that's your lifestyle choice, but don't impose your beliefs on me."

"You're right, I've no right to judge what you do in the privacy of -HEY, WAIT! This is my house!"

"Look, let's just agree to disagree."




EDIT: By the way, I agree with this:
Quote:
So, the next time she says something like "Well, it's just normal for me"

You can say something like "Yeah, it was normal for me too, but then I really thought about it and I find that sad. I find it sad that it's 'normal' for animals to be killed, so we can eat them. So, that's why I don't eat them. Normal doesn't always equal right or good, it just means it happens often enough that we don't question it"
Not that it'll work, but it's an emotional appeal better suited to close friends.
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Last edited by Dogma; 08-04-2015 at 10:33 AM.
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#7 Old 08-04-2015, 12:35 PM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVeggieCat View Post
The following is a text conversation I had with my oldest friend today. She did nothing but try to justify her actions the entire conversation.

Her: You don't even want to know what I ate today.

Me: I don't?

Her: Gyro

Me: I like falafel gyros myself. Mediterranean food is good. hummus is boss.

Her: Lol yea it's the first time I had lamb.... which uh if it makes you feel better I bought it from a cruelty free organic store.

Me: Can't say it does...

Her: Oh hey I wanted to ask you something! Why can't vegan's drink milk?

Me: because milk is for babies

Her: For babies?

Me: Yup, no animal drinks milk after infancy, it screws with digestion. Also factory farming and cruel practices.

Her: O.o my digestion is just fine. I drink 2 glasses a day. We get our dairy from a local farm.

Me: Ok, but take notice that a lot of people can't digest it?

Her: Lmao its like when people tell me not to feed milk to my dog, he loves it and has no problems. Although it is weird how I can totally digest milk, I heard its a mutation in some people. I'm a mutant lol, sorry you can't be a mutant too :'(

Me: Honestly I'm glad I'm not a "mutant." I couldn't look an animal in the face and say "Hey I love all animals but damn you're tasty." Or go up to a cow and say "hey sorry for killing your baby but I want to drink your tit juice."

Her: That's why I want my own cow someday. So I can milk it without torturing it.

Me: Well even so, how could you eat meat and look at that cow in the face.

Her: Not hard. Though I wish I didn't have to buy it from a store.

me: *sends her pics of cows and meat*

Her: ASH! I don't eat meat every meal, but I do eat meat. With my salary (shes a tech for windows making a **** ton of money) and my hours available in the day plus my food allergies it's hard for me to get what I need from a vegan diet, I NEED MEAT!! So I don't look at it as "yum a cow" I see the cow and appreciate the sacrifice it gave to keep me healthy.

Me: I still don't understand because I make NO MONEY AT ALL and have multiple food allergies and still get what I need. I guess its just hard for me to understand that, I don't mean to offend but you did bring this up.

her: Nuts make my throat swell, kale makes me vomit, and kiwi makes my lips numb and bananas give me a stomach ache.

me: Nuts are expensive so I avoid them, kale is bad for you anyway, I don't eat kiwi and I don't eat many bananas.

Her: I don't know how you can afford it, I bought ingredients for a small vegan meal and it cost me $100!!!

Me: I bought 2 weeks worth of food at a farmers market for 7 bucks...

Her: Which brings me to time! I would have to find a recipe I can actually eat, find a way to pervade it so the meal doesn't cost $25, then find time to make it, work hours a week, voluteer at the church, work as a temp president for WIT, school. and get 4 hours of sleep.

Me: crock pots are great..

Her: NO! Crock pots are the DEVIL!!! I refuse to use them because I have to get up early to prepare food.

Me: Then I don't know what the f*** to tell you.

Her: Exactly! :/

Me: Everything I've said you've come up with an excuse, I can't help.

Her: The majority of the food I eat is mostly on the go, I don't mean eating out, I mean microwave. But its what I can do, its cheap and affordable. I'm paying off student loans and going to school, plus it also helps I was raised on a farm, you ever been chased by a pig?? Chickens are mean too!

Me: Honestly IDK what to tell you because there's a way to get around all of that. Meat is pretty expensive and honestly if I could I would come over there and teach you how to pro-college student vegan things. But hey I guess that's just your lifestyle choice and I shouldn't stick my business in it because I don't want to lose a friend. You don't have to justify your lifestyle around me, you're my friend! But you asked me plain and simple why vegans don't drink milk and I gave you an answer. You don't have to justify your lifestyle why you eat meat or drink milk, but you damn sure can't tell me that you wan't to have a cow as an animal companion and not find it hard to look that cow in the face as you eat the flesh of it's family. That's like me having a child in the house while I pamper and love this child and grill his brother. It's a little ****ed up to me.

Her; I was serious about the milk thing, I wanted to know. Also yea it's my lifestyle and I can't just change it on a dime, it's like you asking someone to stop smoking. Whether it's good or bad, it isn't easy to just stop! Growing up with farmers and hunters, I can't just change that on a dime!!

me: I grew up with farmers and hunters and I literally changed within the course of 3 months. I don't mean to insult you but it doesn't make sense to me.

Her: I'm genuinely trying to understand you. I guess I could say this; I literally grew up with chickens and played with the chicks, but I knew one day they would be killed and eaten, so it's just normal yknow.

me: *horrified expression* THAT'S MESSED UP

Her: I just don't understand the concept of going vegan. It's like a religion. You're Pagan, I'm Christian, we'll never understand eachother's beliefs. I'm not trying to convert you but you understand right?

Me: .....................

I don't know what to say back to her....
Next time you see here, show her this post.



Anytime I think I'm perfect, I remember that my cousin lives on an island, and I've never walked over to visit her.
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#8 Old 08-04-2015, 09:39 PM
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Basically, it seems like what your friend wants is your assent. She wants you to tell her that no, she's not a bad person for eating meat because she's a super-special snowflake who has Important Reasons. She wants to feel better about her existing decisions rather than reconsider them.

I think the best thing you could do is withhold that assent. The fact that she's seeking it at all means that, on some level, she intuits that eating animal products is morally wrong. She's experiencing cognitive dissonance between what she wants to do and what her conscience tells her she should do, and she wants that dissonance to go away by getting you (whom she clearly considers a Moral Authority on this issue) to give her a Get-Out-Of-Ethics-Free card. By conspicuously withholding that, you increase her dissonance, which will force her to resolve the issue in another way. And since the best, most permanent way is by stopping the behavior that is causing the dissonance, that's a potential net win for the world's animals.

Basically, I think she's setting the first step on the road to being vegan herself, and she doesn't like it. Which is fair; it can be hard to be vegan for many reasons, not the least of which is what the rest of the world thinks about us. I think your current attitude is the right one. Don't pressure her, but don't let any of her fallacies stand, either. Don't back down.

Since I assume you've been a vegan for years, she's the one who violated your previous "agree to disagree" (ugh) truce on the issue, and you're under no obligation to censor your feelings for her comfort. As far as what to say to her last statement, you could point out that you would never ask her to violate her morals by asking for her blessing on some behavior of yours that her Christian faith would condemn, so she shouldn't ask you to approve of something that violates your veganism.
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#9 Old 08-04-2015, 10:19 PM
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This doesn't sound like a constructive discussion that is going anywhere positive. I'd just say "I think we can agree to disagree and lets not discuss this further" and leave it there. You don't need to justify your actions or beliefs to her. She is clearly trying to either get you to react OR get you to eat meat again. Why even discuss it, neither of you are going to budge or gain a greater understanding of your opposing viewpoints. This will just digress into a fight and possibly end a friendship.

"The reward for conformity is that everyone likes you but yourself"
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#10 Old 08-05-2015, 06:33 AM
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This will just digress into a fight and possibly end a friendship.
Sometimes friendship is the cost of doing the right thing.
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#11 Old 08-05-2015, 07:38 AM
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I thought she was actually not bad. Try to have patience with her in this topic of conversation, sometimes it is hard. But seemed to me like you lost your temper a little bit
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#12 Old 08-09-2015, 04:49 PM
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I totally get your frustration - i probably would have said the same things that you did. I would've just said at the end - it's as simple as putting yourself in that animal's shoes. People just don't always see that connection as easily as we do i guess.
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#13 Old 08-10-2015, 02:14 PM
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My gf is an omnivore/borderline carnivore and I know all about what the OP is talking about.

I've went to multiple restaurants and fast food places with her and I catch he'll for just ordering a water/salad. I've been offered countless chicken strips and stuff and I'll explain I don't eat animals yet she just gets mad at me when I do.

One time she invited me over for Mexican food and all she had was beef, beans with lard, cheese, sour cream, lettuce, and tomatoes so I refused to eat and she broke up with me for 2 days despite me being nice.

Then we went to dairy queen aq few weeks later and bought me a grilled cheese while she had a burger and when I told her I can't eat cheese she just said "a bit of cheese won't kill you".
You can explain Veganism to some people a thousand times and they won't get it or care, I've learned to live with that fact lol.

Relatives are usually the worst though, I don't drink alcohol anymore either so family gatherings are crazy awkward, I try to avoid them.
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#14 Old 08-11-2015, 11:00 AM
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Relatives are usually the worst though, I don't drink alcohol anymore either so family gatherings are crazy awkward,
Are you supposed to show up to family gatherings blitzed out of your mind? I wouldn't know.
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#15 Old 08-11-2015, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceratops View Post
Basically, it seems like what your friend wants is your assent. She wants you to tell her that no, she's not a bad person for eating meat because she's a super-special snowflake who has Important Reasons. She wants to feel better about her existing decisions rather than reconsider them.
That's kinda what I surmised as well.

All animals should be respected & should have the ability to lead a natural & enjoyable life. This means not eating them, or abusing them in any way.
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#16 Old 08-11-2015, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travalanche View Post
My gf is an omnivore/borderline carnivore and I know all about what the OP is talking about.

I've went to multiple restaurants and fast food places with her and I catch he'll for just ordering a water/salad. I've been offered countless chicken strips and stuff and I'll explain I don't eat animals yet she just gets mad at me when I do.

One time she invited me over for Mexican food and all she had was beef, beans with lard, cheese, sour cream, lettuce, and tomatoes so I refused to eat and she broke up with me for 2 days despite me being nice.

Then we went to dairy queen aq few weeks later and bought me a grilled cheese while she had a burger and when I told her I can't eat cheese she just said "a bit of cheese won't kill you".
You can explain Veganism to some people a thousand times and they won't get it or care, I've learned to live with that fact lol.

Relatives are usually the worst though, I don't drink alcohol anymore either so family gatherings are crazy awkward, I try to avoid them.
My friendly advice, is break up. Make a delicious veg*an meal for her, and if she doesn't appreciate it, find someone new.

Anytime I think I'm perfect, I remember that my cousin lives on an island, and I've never walked over to visit her.
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