The controversy of Freelee - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 05-13-2015, 01:43 PM
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Here she is giving dangerous health advice and fat shaming in full context, then.

How I lost my period on a RAW VEGAN Diet: https://youtu.be/A0ptJE79npA

Can every woman get a THIGH GAP?: https://youtu.be/VCWY32-AOLU

FAT Acceptance FAT Shaming: https://youtu.be/eP0gtM5pcoU
Hm, these are the posts that do ruffle my feathers. I am skeptical you watched these videos through. All of these are from 2013/2014 too, not exactly recent and people's content changes a lot in a year.

How I lost my period on a RAW VEGAN Diet: This video doesn't give advice to people. It's about the story of her period through going raw.

Things she says:
Eventually my period did come back
A period isn't healthy when it's too heavy and very painful. (My Doctor actually reiterated this to me and veganism completely "cured" my period problems. Now, my periods are light and steady, come regularly and no longer last for 2 weeks at a time. This is exactly what she is getting at in the video.)
If you want a light flow and less pain, you can reduce your fat
If your periods are too heavy, getting into this lifestyle will reduce them
It's not healthy to lose your period from having too low body fat

Nowhere in the video does she propose dangerous behaviour This video is also from 2013 - I don't stuff being used against her from more than 2 years ago!

Can every woman get a THIGH GAP?:

Things she says:
If you don't have a gap of course it doesn't make you a bad person or any less of a person!
I am fed up of girls starving themselves to get a thigh gap when they could just be getting healthy and have the thigh gap as a "side effect"
I think it's not natural to have legs big enough that they rub together, that naturally we are designed to stay lean and slim, but that as a population we're all get fatter etc.
Everyone can get a thigh gap but it's unhealthy to make that the focus of your lifestyle, but it's okay to have one if you are following a healthy lifestyle and you naturally become as lean as to have one.
You need to focusing on mainly health and fitness, not aesthetics
A thigh gap is just a byproduct of me living healthily and it just happened.
I hope I bring in people from a background of anorexia because I want to help, I want to get you away from that conditioning. This lifestyle is not an eating disorder, it's just abundant living.

I really can't see any dangerous or vain content here.

FAT shaming video:
I don't go around calling people ugly and hideous, I simply ask people who are overweight if they've heard of this lifestyle and if they would be open to it.
[She quotes a video where a guy says] The idea that you're not allowed to comment on people's weight now because it's labelled "fat shaming" absolves that person's responsibility for their health.
It's fantastic to love yourself, like this Big is Beautiful campaign, but it means you're telling people they don't need to change, and putting them in a false sense of security, making them comfortable with their weight.
We need to help motivate people who have obesity. Some people say I should leave them alone but I want to see people thrive.
I wasn't obese but I was overweight and I know how **** it feels. Most people haven't experienced real health and fitness, and so don't have anything to compare to.
I can see society normalising obesity, and thinking people 40 pounds overweight is fine, which isn't okay.
What you're eating affects everything around you, including animals and the environment, the next generation. You are an example for the next generation, you have the responsibility to be healthy for them. Billions of dollars goes towards obesity-related issues.
We need to give some tough love. We don't have to abuse people but we do have to be honest with them.
For people who say I'm fat shaming, I'm just being honest. If you can't realise you have a problem, how do you help yourself?
Giving people sympathy for it can disable them and tell them it's okay to be fat. Have empathy for them, sure, but help them by providing solutions. If they don't try it, they don't want to change. People might not receive my message well but I'm showing them they have the chance to change.

I loved this video actually. See how good her message is? I honestly don't feel like she fat shames. She NEVER makes videos saying people are ugly, a disgrace and a bad person for being fat. In so many of her videos she keeps repeating "Remember, you're NOT fat, you just HAVE fat." as a motivational message to those feeling bad about themselves. Making a video about certain obese people may be confrontational but it's honest and it's direct. She only ever says in those videos how she wishes they would get on the healthy lifestyle and take a hold of their weight.




These videos are actually about coming together as a society, moving away from aesthetics and focusing on health and self-respect. This is why I worry people just pick what they want out of her videos and twist it, which is a shame because she has some really beautiful messages that can get lost.
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#32 Old 05-13-2015, 03:21 PM
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I'm one of the "freelee who now?"crowd. I'm also pretty uniformly skeptical of people in the "health industry", particularly when they have product to push. I wouldn't fault anybody for being leery of my opinion on those issues. In fact I'd be disappointed if you weren't.

Some of the bigger issues, though, are things I think about all the dang time. Specifically, "how do we choose our champions"? We (veg*ns) have the unfortunate tendency to elevate celebs, convince ourselves that any flaws they have are insignificant, and then be surprised when they let us down.

And when somebody in the movement points out that the person we've clothed as the hero isn't really wearing clothes at all, that somebody is ostracized, their personal commitment questioned, and accused of divisiveness. Happens to me all the time, or it does when I don't avoid the whole mess by self-censoring.

To sum up, we have a problem with hero worship in our advocacy. It distracts from our goals, hampers progress towards our goals, and even redefines what our goals are.

To bring this back to the topic at hand ...

Three things bug me about this conversation. 1) "Whatever works". No. But that's a whole 'nuther post. 2) Being taken out of context - Sure, a definite possibility, but I'd like to be shown what the context was where the comment about skipping periods was undeserving of criticism. Statements that one was "taken out of context" aren't get out of criticism free cards. 3) Concerns about ED are being dismissed rather than addressed. 4) We're sort of flirting with addressing health and the healthy body as socially constructed concepts - let's go all the way! 5) Some people are underestimating the number of points they have to make in enumerated lists.

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#33 Old 05-13-2015, 03:32 PM
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Three things bug me about this conversation. 1) "Whatever works". No. But that's a whole 'nuther post. 2) Being taken out of context - Sure, a definite possibility, but I'd like to be shown what the context was where the comment about skipping periods was undeserving of criticism. Statements that one was "taken out of context" aren't get out of criticism free cards. 3) Concerns about ED are being dismissed rather than addressed. 4) We're sort of flirting with addressing health and the healthy body as socially constructed concepts - let's go all the way! 5) Some people are underestimating the number of points they have to make in enumerated lists.
1) I definitely support her activism but the post was made because I don't know whether I support her approach and her as a person, so really my question was how much does someone have to be a f*ck up before they are not considered a good person to spread the vegan message? It's similar to the controversy about Gary - he is dangerously extreme and aggressive but has done such amazing work with spreading the message that it's hard to decide whether people should like him being in the public eye or not!
2) I did do a reply post to No Whey Jose's link to her talking about periods, check it out
3) You know, I've never genuinely seen one of Freelee's true followers come out and claim that Freelee gave them an eating disorder, so I'm not really sure where this idea comes from and would be really interested to see some testimonies on the issue! In which case I do believe the whole ED accusations are undeserved.
Not sure what 4) and 5) are really saying but yeah, there's my two cents

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#34 Old 05-13-2015, 03:53 PM
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Ack! Cross post! Concern #2 has been addressed to some extent, although I can't say how successfully.
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#35 Old 05-13-2015, 03:58 PM
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Thigh gap
I realize some body types are naturally lean and long it seems natural on them. For many I've seen with this gap they look more anorexic. Maybe because I've known woman with serious ED's.
I've been somewhat underweight in my younger years and never had a noticable gap at the top of my thighs.
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#36 Old 05-13-2015, 04:08 PM
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It's similar to the controversy about Gary
Funny you should mention the Garys. I have issues with both Gary Y and Gary F, and they loomed large in my mind as I typed that bit about heroes.

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I definitely support her activism but the post was made because I don't know whether I support her approach and her as a person, so really my question was how much does someone have to be a f*ck up before they are not considered a good person to spread the vegan message?
And that is very cool. Those can be uncomfortable questions to ask, but asking them is important
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#37 Old 05-13-2015, 04:46 PM
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A healthy diet doesn't cause disturbances in the menstrual cycle, and certainly shouldn't cause a woman to stop menstruating for any amount of time. Amenorrhea is a condition that can seriously affect fertility and bone density. Although it's strongly associated with anorexia nervosa, extreme weight loss isn't a prerequisite-- amenorrhea can occur early in the adoption of a new diet if the woman isn't taking in enough energy. In other words, it's a sign of something wrong. For Freelee to suggest that this is a normal and temporary occurrence among raw vegans is dangerous. For her to promote a diet capable of causing amenorrhea is dangerous. If she's changed her message since these videos were posted, she should delete them-- and stop profiting from the ad revenue.

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I am fed up of girls starving themselves to get a thigh gap when they could just be getting healthy and have the thigh gap as a "side effect"...

I think it's not natural to have legs big enough that they rub together...

Everyone can get a thigh gap
This is blatantly incorrect. Whether a woman has a thigh gap or not is determined by her anatomy: her body type, pelvic width, tendon length. It is literally impossible for most women to achieve a thigh gap, and it's dangerous for Freelee to suggest that it's unnatural for a woman's thighs to touch.

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I don't go around calling people ugly and hideous, I simply ask people who are overweight if they've heard of this lifestyle and if they would be open to it.
This is an example of fat shaming. She's making wild assumptions about the health of complete strangers based solely on their weight, then approaching them to push her weight loss program. That's incredibly offensive, intrusive, and arrogant. She doesn't have to call them ugly to be insulting.

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you're telling people they don't need to change... making them comfortable with their weight. We need to help motivate people who have obesity.

For people who say I'm fat shaming, I'm just being honest. If you can't realise you have a problem, how do you help yourself?
Giving people sympathy for it can disable them and tell them it's okay to be fat.
This is legitimately one of the most condescending things I've ever heard. She can say it's about health as often as she likes, but it's about the way people look. I hear in her words a sad inability to accept the idea of other people being content with themselves. I hear fear, jealousy, anger and self-hatred. There are no beautiful messages here, just a woman who's channelled her disordered thinking into an obsession with diet and exercise, painted herself as a health guru, and broadcasted these misguided messages to thousands of malleable and insecure young women. Worse, she's profiting financially off it.

True health is about so much more than a person's physique. I'm disturbed by how frequently mental health is cast aside as insignificant.
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#38 Old 05-13-2015, 05:04 PM
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To sum up, we have a problem with hero worship in our advocacy. It distracts from our goals, hampers progress towards our goals, and even redefines what our goals are.
This.
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#39 Old 05-13-2015, 06:50 PM
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This is an example of fat shaming. She's making wild assumptions about the health of complete strangers based solely on their weight, then approaching them to push her weight loss program. That's incredibly offensive, intrusive, and arrogant. She doesn't have to call them ugly to be insulting.
Hm, I don't think going "There's this lifestyle I live where I've had great results. If you're open to it, would you try it? I would like to help you if you are unhealthy because I want to see you happy." is on par with how you've described her approach. Don't get me wrong, I understand fat shaming is a real issue, but I definitely do agree that someone shouldn't feel content with having health issues. I understand how someone can be obese but are eating healthily and that in the long term they will get to a natural weight, but I genuinely do not believe someone could be healthy if they are always obese.


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This is legitimately one of the most condescending things I've ever heard. She can say it's about health as often as she likes, but it's about the way people look. I hear in her words a sad inability to accept the idea of other people being content with themselves. I hear fear, jealousy, anger and self-hatred. There are no beautiful messages here, just a woman who's channelled her disordered thinking into an obsession with diet and exercise, painted herself as a health guru, and broadcasted these misguided messages to thousands of malleable and insecure young women. Worse, she's profiting financially off it.

True health is about so much more than a person's physique. I'm disturbed by how frequently mental health is cast aside as insignificant.
I just don't see it. I would really like to see it your way in case I'm looking at this wrong, but all I hear is her wanting to help and using her own success story to give advice (we all do this in every aspect of our lives when people want advice). I truly believe she has helped more people than she's "driven into disorder".

Looking good and being healthy go hand in hand, don't they? Have we just disregarded the fact that someone who is healthy is most likely going to be in the ideal muscle/fat percentage range and won't have diet-induced illness or diseases? She never says she wants to get people to slim down, she says she wants people to get healthy and that slimming down is a natural side effect of that.

Again, I wish I saw what you saw! There are videos that obese people have done on her agreeing with everything she says and saying they LIKE Freelee's approach to obesity, so I guess you could argue she just has a niché audience that you're not part of. Some of the victims you seem to think there are support her in her "victimising" approach so I don't think you could ever imply she is simply a bad person who gives bad advice and gives people eating disorders, when that's simply not true!

I do, however, hope for her sake that she calms down and gets rid of the extreme stuff that she doesn't have the research/qualifications to really address or give advice on. I think it would be a lot easier for her to appeal to a wider audience that way.
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#40 Old 05-14-2015, 02:54 AM
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I used to visit a few eating disorder forums (some recovery oriented, some not) back in the day, and there was almost always a few threads going about Freelee. I didn't even know who she was until I read those. 99% of them were negative opinions about her. Whether she promotes health and well being or not, you have to wonder when so many people post threads like this about her and there are just so many strong opinions about her, and many from vegans and from people with eating disorders.
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#41 Old 05-14-2015, 04:18 AM
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Hm, I don't think going "There's this lifestyle I live where I've had great results. If you're open to it, would you try it? I would like to help you if you are unhealthy because I want to see you happy." is on par with how you've described her approach. Don't get me wrong, I understand fat shaming is a real issue, but I definitely do agree that someone shouldn't feel content with having health issues. I understand how someone can be obese but are eating healthily and that in the long term they will get to a natural weight, but I genuinely do not believe someone could be healthy if they are always obese.
Again, this approach is based on the assumption that anyone who appears overweight (which is, after all, a subjective judgement-- how do you define "overweight" without knowing an individual's BMI? How does Freelee?) Is unhealthy and in need of help.

Whether you personally believe it or not, recent research from the CDC suggests that those who are a bit overweight actually have a significantly lower overall mortality risk than those of normal weight. The possible cause of this, like the relationship between health and weight itself, is complex: people carrying a little extra fat fare better in times of illness and in serious accidents, tend to receive better medical treatment and to seek treatment more readily than their slimmer counterparts, and thinness itself is often a sign of an underlying medical condition or illness.

Furthermore, it is far healthier to be consistently overweight than to lose and gain weight frequently through the adoption of unsustainable and restrictive diets-- which is what will happen to many people who attempt Freelee's program and fail. A low fat diet consisting of 80% fruit simply isn't possible for the vast majority of people, and attempting such a diet can lead to the vicious cycle of restriction and bingeing that will be so familiar to anyone who has any experience with disordered eating (clinical or otherwise). This is why most nutritionists suggest the gradual inclusion of more fruits and vegetables into one's diet rather than a strict regimen of "good" and "bad" foods: the aim is to promote a lifestyle that is healthy and sustainable for most people.

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all I hear is her wanting to help and using her own success story to give advice (we all do this in every aspect of our lives when people want advice).
It's worth pointing out that we don't all charge for our advice, or offer it unsolicited. You don't seem to acknowledge that she stands to gain financially from pushing her advice-- in other words, she's selling something. It's difficult for me to view someone's motives as purely altruistic when money is involved. Even if I'm mistaken and Freelee is driven only by a sincere desire to help her fellow man, she's still offering dangerous and unsubstantiated medical advice. I can't support that, no matter how "hot" she looks in a bikini. (On that note, if her message is truly about turning away from the superficial and denying aesthetics in favour of true and total health, what's with the hundreds of half-dressed selfies? Why the marked focus on her appearance?)

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Some of the victims you seem to think there are support her in her "victimising" approach so I don't think you could ever imply she is simply a bad person who gives bad advice and gives people eating disorders, when that's simply not true!
The fact that so many women take her videos to heart is precisely the reason why I feel this is an important enough issue to bring up. I'm much more concerned about the affect her message has on women who consider themselves fat and who are actively hoping to lose weight on her program than in any other demographic. There are other, more balanced total health programs and philosophies that do not promote an ideal of thinness, such as HAES (Health At Every Size), but these women are drawn to Freelee by the promise of a thigh gap and a slim body that might not even be within their physical ability to achieve. When they fail to look like her, they'll blame themselves.

For the record, I never claimed that she's a bad person. I don't pretend to know her heart. What I do know is that she admits to struggling with an eating disorder in the past, and that the thought patterns of an ED tend to stick with you throughout your life, often well into recovery; tend to permutate into other obsessive tendencies. I recognize in her treatment of "fat" people and in her emphasis on physical appearance the mark of disordered eating on a person's psyche. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I find it sad that she seems unwilling to accept that other people could be truly happy with their bodies at any size, that they could be capable of genuinely enjoying life without hating themselves or wishing to be thinner, and that there are other parts of life far more important to many people than weight.

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#42 Old 05-14-2015, 06:19 AM
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As I mentioned in an earlier post, I find it sad that she seems unwilling to accept that other people could be truly happy with their bodies at any size, that they could be capable of genuinely enjoying life without hating themselves or wishing to be thinner, and that there are other parts of life far more important to many people than weight.
In response to your entire message - I think I still have some quarms but I do understand better your perspective so thank you!

I do think the paragraph I left in for the quotation reminds me that most YouTubers promote a niché message. Blogilates, BiteSizeVegans, VeganFitness etc. are all youtubers who have videos that focus on one specific message. Freelee has her own one which, albeit controversial, means that even though she probably recognises there ARE parts of life more important than weight, she isn't on YouTube to cover all aspects of life - she is there for the people that are unhappy in their weight and she is offering her personal experiences as advice for those people. This is exactly what Blogilates does, and she doesn't get as much flack for it simply because she minds her own business when it comes to giving unsolicited advice.. If Freelee did the same I think her message would be received so much better. She doesn't just focus on weight, she uses weight as an avenue as health and in a lot of her videos she reiterates "You DON'T have to look like me to be healthy or to be successful on the lifestyle. It's about feeling good about what you're eating and detoxifying your body." Her message gets lost within her strong opinions and tip-of-the-scale eating habits, which is a real shame.

I will say, however, I do not enjoy her latest stuff. She is becoming more cynical and I think someone mentioned it earlier - she has lost that positive spark and is becoming increasingly more negative with her content. Let's hope she doesn't create an even bigger enemy base!
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#43 Old 05-23-2015, 05:23 PM
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Thought I would join into the conversation, but has anyone seen her most recent videos? She has lost a lot of subscribers because of her statements like "I'm superior to you because I make better choices by being vegan." Or saying that you don't deserve to live if you are aware of the animal suffering but continue to contribute to it. At first I was defending her saying that she was misunderstood, but lately I've noticed that she has become increasingly negative. I think it is related to losing a court battle with another fitness/diet "guru" when she publicly criticized her diet plan by calling it a starvation diet, which it really wasn't. But I think she was entitled to her opinion, but I guess things are different in Australia because she lost in court. Since then she has been down, egocentric and negative. I don't agree with her that vegans are superior, that is showing too much ego.

I'm sad to see her go down this path, but I can understand. I was an angry vegan for a short period of time.. but I didn't really show it or lash out, I was just frustrated that so many people are turning a blind eye to animal suffering and making up lame excuses to continue to contribute to that. I've gotten used to it now, people aren't going to change until their very lives depend on it, and even then they don't want to change. The only thing I can do is set a good example, be the change I want to see in the world, and be grateful for documentaries like Cowspiracy.
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#44 Old 05-23-2015, 07:13 PM
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I don't agree with her that vegans are superior

They are totally making superior choices. When I was a vegetarian, I totally thought that vegans were superior.

I think she did a great job here:

Don't agree with everything she said but she reached a lot of people with this one.

I think now that she is fiscally independent she no longer feels that she has to sugar coat it. She can say anything she wants and she will still get views and make money. It must be nice!

I've often felt that the day I can say what I want, dress like I want, not worry about other people or money or repercussions--that's the day I will be successful. Hopefully it will happen without offending people. I don't think I will tell people that they deserve to die but I absolutely think that veganism is the more moral choice. No question about it.
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#45 Old 05-23-2015, 08:04 PM
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I haven't watched any of freelee's videos (I prefer to read that kind of stuff, it is much quicker), but I think I would be angry and cynical too, if so many people were so rude to me, even making anti-freelee websites. Instead, just don't watch her videos; she is not knocking on your door or yelling in the street outside your door with a bullhorn. And for even the vegans to be so critical, wham, it must be a knife to the heart for her.

Personally, I am happy about all vegan information on the web. Different eating plans work for different people, same with personalities. I am also very happy when vegans (and especially female vegans) make money from vegan endeavors. Diet books make billions, and most push salmon and chicken right and left. Let a vegan make a buck on what she is passionate about.

I can't speak personally about the fat shaming or eating disorder topics, but again, don't watch the videos if they are triggering or upsetting.

And vegans are morally superior. In my vegan opinion.
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#46 Old 05-26-2015, 02:12 AM
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And vegans are morally superior. In my vegan opinion.
I've always thought this. In society, we are more than happy to tell someone they are morally superior to a serial killer, domestic abuser, paedophile, rapist, and many more. Why is it any different with being a vegan? Vegans will abstain from unnecessary violence so that animals, INCLUDING HUMANS, have a better quality of life and so that the Earth can thrive (since animal ag is the leading contributor to global destruction, obviously). This means we ARE superior. Just like we label our friends morally superior to a murderer, I count myself morally superior to a carnist because I've used moral reasoning to live consistently with my views and stopped exploiting animals I have no need to abuse. I don't get what is hard about that. That doesn't give me a condescending attitude, or make me act "holier than thou" because I'm applying a mindset that people use every single day when we're faced with criminals. You will consider someone a better friend the more they look out for you - my friends are the animals. What's there more to debate?

That's why I agree with Freelee on most of her videos where she does act "holier than thou". This woman isn't trying to be condescending, she is stating "If you know you don't have to abuse the planet and its inhabitants, but still do, that makes you a dick." WHICH IS TRUE. I know it's easier said than done to break through the wall of meat/dairy conditioning we have all been subjected to our entire lives, but it's still TRUE that we are better people for caring more.
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#47 Old 05-26-2015, 04:29 AM
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Since Freelee came out with her latest videos, I really love her. I'd never been a fan of her nutritional advice. Although I am a raw vegan myself, I think folks need more veggies, but whatever. The bottom line is that she promotes a fully vegan diet. I also don't feel like she fat shames. If you listen to what she says, she promotes "health." She flaunts her figure a lot, but I truly feel she does all this as a means to convert the most people to veganism because of the animals and the planet. You have to reach people where they are, and let's face it, sad as it is, most people are more concerned about how they look than how their food choices unnecessarily but DIRECTLY cause billions of animals to suffer and be murdered and to ruin our planet.


Her recent vids about meat eaters are heart-felt IMO. How can you not be pi**ed when all of these beautiful, innocent creatures are living lives of misery and torture, then killed because people are too selfish to choose another snack.


As far as people feeling put-down by her body image stuff.....like I said before, I think she is just trying to convert more people to veganism and hope they will see the ethics side of it eventually. But at the end of the day, if you feel "fat shamed" by anyone, not just Freelee, you ned to work on your OWN self esteem.
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#48 Old 05-26-2015, 06:34 AM
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I also don't feel like she fat shames. If you listen to what she says, she promotes "health."
I applaud your appropriate use of quotation marks. Health =/= weight. Fat =/= unhealthy. Thin =/= healthy. Healthy people don't necessarily lose weight and unhealthy people don't necessarily gain. A healthy person will not necessarily be able to obtain a fashion model's physique, and trying for that goal can very often lead to lower overall health.

A focus on true health doesn't revolve around weight, and doesn't encourage unrealistic or unattainable goals. A focus on true health always includes psychological well-being.

Of course Freelee says that her focus is on health. She also says that every woman who follows her program can lose enough weight to obtain a thigh gap (as a "by product" of good health!) Saying so doesn't make it true, no matter how often it's repeated.

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She flaunts her figure a lot, but I truly feel she does all this as a means to convert the most people to veganism because of the animals and the planet.
... or to sell books and generate ad revenue. You're right: this stuff sells. It attracts followers, attracts customers, because what these women want more than anything is to look different. Freelee's program is successful for the same reason the beauty industry is successful.

You believe that as long as the end result is more people trying plant-based diets, Freelee's tactics are acceptable. I disagree.

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But at the end of the day, if you feel "fat shamed" by anyone, not just Freelee, you ned to work on your OWN self esteem.
That's a rather presumptuous sentiment.

I don't personally feel shamed by Freelee because I'm not a member of the group she's targeting, but I can recognize when someone is being offensive, unfair, and prejudicial to someone else. My own self-esteem doesn't factor into the equation.

If anything, it's people with low self-esteem who are most likely to buy into popular fad diets and weight loss programs, because they have a strong desire to change themselves. Those who are confident and secure in their own health and their own appearance-- or, especially, those who have gained such insight only after years of crippling insecurity-- are the ones who can easily spot people who capitalize on the insecurities of others.

Regarding the moral superiority angle, I've watched enough of Freelee's videos to determine that she's not morally superior to many omnivores I know. There are, doubtlessly, many omnivores who are morally superior to me. Veganism is one choice we've made correctly, one of many choices we face in our lives. Simply being vegan doesn't ensure that we'll choose the kindest and most compassionate path in every instance. It's the sum total of all our choices that makes us good people.
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#49 Old 05-26-2015, 07:09 AM
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There are, doubtlessly, many omnivores who are morally superior to me. Veganism is one choice we've made correctly, one of many choices we face in our lives. Simply being vegan doesn't ensure that we'll choose the kindest and most compassionate path in every instance. It's the sum total of all our choices that makes us good people.
Very well said nwj. For reasons unknown, a few people, on going vegan feel it incumbent to mount a high horse, the better to look down on non-vegans.
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#50 Old 05-26-2015, 07:37 AM
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Very well said nwj. For reasons unknown, a few people, on going vegan feel it incumbent to mount a high horse, the better to look down on non-vegans.
Don't get me wrong, I've been known to adopt that attitude, too! When you're proud of something good you've done, it's hard not to feel a bit better than everyone else. Part of maturing is to recognize this tendency in yourself and to keep it at bay. When I catch myself talking down to the non-vegans in my life, I feel ashamed because I recognize that, in this particular instance, I'm making the least compassionate choice. It's actually a handy reminder that, vegan or not, I'm as capable as anyone of being insufferable!
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#51 Old 05-26-2015, 08:45 AM
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Veganism is one choice we've made correctly, one of many choices we face in our lives. Simply being vegan doesn't ensure that we'll choose the kindest and most compassionate path in every instance. It's the sum total of all our choices that makes us good people.
This.

There used to be a long term, respected, vegan member of this board who is now serving a lengthy prison sentence for not only sexually abusing his little nephews, but also disseminating the pictures and videos of that sexual abuse internationally.

I don't think he's morally superior to anyone.

In fact, when someone starts touting their moral superiority, my spidey-sense starts tingling, just as when someone touts his/her honesty.
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#52 Old 05-26-2015, 08:50 AM
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i love listening to some one who gets really worked up about problems. and i like people that call fat people fat. but her solutions are just hilarious.
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#53 Old 05-26-2015, 08:57 AM
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Freelee 's diet does not seem healthy to me, thirty bananas a day seems a little excessive to me. I used to subscribe to her but I don't anymore because of her fat shaming and telling people a thigh gap is healthy. Some of the vegan/vegetarian youtubers I really like are Bite Size Vegan, Vegan Gains and Yoga with Adrienne (Adrienne is a vegetarian yoga instructor but she never really talks about it).
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#54 Old 05-26-2015, 09:49 AM
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This.

There used to be a long term, respected, vegan member of this board who is now serving a lengthy prison sentence for not only sexually abusing his little nephews, but also disseminating the pictures and videos of that sexual abuse internationally.

I don't think he's morally superior to anyone.

In fact, when someone starts touting their moral superiority, my spidey-sense starts tingling, just as when someone touts his/her honesty.
You don't think that veganism is a more moral choice than eating animals? I do, but I only would say that amongst veg friends. I don't even use the "vegan" word much irl, and I am not one who runs around lecturing meat-eaters or flaunting my pleather shoes.

Btw, my understanding is that the pedophilic former member you brought up was meat eater the whole time he was here.
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#55 Old 05-26-2015, 10:20 AM
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You don't think that veganism is a more moral choice than eating animals? I do, but I only would say that amongst veg friends. I don't even use the "vegan" word much irl, and I am not one who runs around lecturing meat-eaters or flaunting my pleather shoes.

Btw, my understanding is that the pedophilic former member you brought up was meat eater the whole time he was here.
I don't think anyone's disputing that veganism is a moral choice, or even that it's an important moral choice-- it's just that it's one moral choice out of many. All vegans aren't good people by virtue of being vegan. We're just as capable as meat-eaters of being selfish, manipulative, dishonest, cruel. If the person given in Joe's example wasn't real (or wasn't really vegan), it's no matter; I can assure you that there are vegans out there who have done equally horrible things. Likewise, there are meat-eaters who have sacrificed themselves for the sake of others via grand gestures-- rescuing people from burning buildings, donating organs, operating shelters for the homeless and food banks for the hungry. It's far too simple to reduce the goodness of a person to one area of her life, to say to her, "I am a better person than you because I don't eat animals," whether you say it to her face or just believe it quietly in your own head. People are more complex than that, morality is more complex than that.
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#56 Old 05-26-2015, 11:53 AM
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This.

There used to be a long term, respected, vegan member of this board who is now serving a lengthy prison sentence for not only sexually abusing his little nephews, but also disseminating the pictures and videos of that sexual abuse internationally.

I don't think he's morally superior to anyone.

In fact, when someone starts touting their moral superiority, my spidey-sense starts tingling, just as when someone touts his/her honesty.

Woah that is really scary it goes to show you never really know you are talking too. :O

I read somewhere that Pol Pot was vegan and he was definitively not moral.
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#57 Old 05-26-2015, 01:50 PM
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Btw, my understanding is that the pedophilic former member you brought up was meat eater the whole time he was here.
Is that what some people are saying now? I guess it makes them feel better, if they feel it necessary to believe that veg*ns are overall morally superior.

No Whey Jose said it better, but yes, veganism is the more moral choice when it comes to food and associated lifestyle choices, but it's only one of many moral choices we each make all the time. I don't think that one can even argue that a vegan is always most moral when it comes to non-human animals overall.
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#58 Old 05-26-2015, 02:55 PM
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I ate two ripe bananas for breakfast and swear I pooped 6 times before lunch. Just sayin'...

What happened to that Skinny *****--people used to diss her too but she wasn't raw.\

It kinda pisses me off that a vegan would get implants, IMO only.

Falafel was a great disappointment. I never knew there was indication he was an omni, but then there wasn't any indication of the other, so....Internet whore?
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#59 Old 05-26-2015, 03:34 PM
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I ate two ripe bananas for breakfast and swear I pooped 6 times before lunch. Just sayin'...

What happened to that Skinny *****--people used to diss her too but she wasn't raw.\

It kinda pisses me off that a vegan would get implants, IMO only.

Falafel was a great disappointment. I never knew there was indication he was an omni, but then there wasn't any indication of the other, so....Internet whore?
Successful women are often degraded, sadly. Either people claim the woman is showing too much skin, trying to actually make money on an enterprise they work hard on and believe in instead of doing it for free, is too fat, too thin, too old, too young, had too much plastic surgery, doesn't shave her armpits, is too aggressive, cries too much, blah blah blah.

I know Freelee and the Skinny ***** author could easily be triggering for those with eating disorders. Sadly, many many things and sites are triggering for these issues. These two successful vegan women can also help those who are obese (a huge number of people) with another choice on how to eat and exercise to lose weight, plus no animal deaths.

My way is to leave the veg*ns alone and go after the stupid paleo, Atkins, low carb type people if I want to pick a fight.

Edit to add: Freelee got her breast implants over a decade ago, since her breasts seem to be a hot topic.
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Last edited by LedBoots; 05-26-2015 at 03:50 PM. Reason: BY
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#60 Old 05-26-2015, 03:53 PM
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Is that what some people are saying now? I guess it makes them feel better, if they feel it necessary to believe that veg*ns are overall morally superior.

No Whey Jose said it better, but yes, veganism is the more moral choice when it comes to food and associated lifestyle choices, but it's only one of many moral choices we each make all the time. I don't think that one can even argue that a vegan is always most moral when it comes to non-human animals overall.
I never said that vegans are "overall morally superior." I said it is morally superior not to eat animals vs. eating them. You don't think so?

Edit: OK, I see above that I said that I think vegans are morally superior. I will amend. Certainly that doesn't include child molesters or other criminals, but all things being equal, the vegan lifestyle is inherently more ethical than the meat eating one. Imvo.

Last edited by LedBoots; 05-26-2015 at 04:00 PM.
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