"I love animals, but I eat them".... - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 08-02-2014, 06:14 PM
 
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Question "I love animals, but I eat them"....

Am I crazy for not understanding how someone can say they love animals, yet they are not vegan? I've been told "it's not black and white" or "you're being judgmental" when I say "if you really cared about animals then you would be vegan". I just can't comprehend how someone can say they love animals but they consume meat and/or dairy! Looking for feedback and opinions...thank you.
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#2 Old 08-02-2014, 07:38 PM
 
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I struggle with the same dilemma since I have become Vegan. It is hard for me to believe that someone is a true "animal lover" if they have not questioned why they eat them!

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#3 Old 08-02-2014, 07:59 PM
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I'm not vegan because while I care about animals that are sentient, I'm not concerned about animals that don't exhibit sentience.

I don't consume meat or dairy, yet I'm not vegan. Veganism goes beyond the avoidance of traditional meat products, dairy, etc.
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#4 Old 08-02-2014, 09:07 PM
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Pause for second when you begin feeling this way, and remember your own journey. One poster above used "became vegan," and I would venture that the original poster also "became vegan."

Became.

It would not be fair to judge others on where they are on their journey, and not everyone mentally "evolves" at the same rate as anyone else. You are on your path and it is working for you, others are on theirs and can benefit from your excellent example of compassion towards all beings, so have a little compassion for those a little slower to becoming a compassionate being that they may have in them.

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#5 Old 08-02-2014, 11:05 PM
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On topic, I agree, but, as River said, they are living their own life, and you are living yours.

Off topic--Hi River!! It's good to see you again.

Anytime I think I'm perfect, I remember that my cousin lives on an island, and I've never walked over to visit her.
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#6 Old 08-03-2014, 12:06 PM
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I'm not vegan because while I care about animals that are sentient, I'm not concerned about animals that don't exhibit sentience.

I don't consume meat or dairy, yet I'm not vegan. Veganism goes beyond the avoidance of traditional meat products, dairy, etc.
Which animals don't experience sentience?

To your second point.....you avoid "meat & dairy", but would eat jello, or something with animal parts in it? Gelatin can come from the collagen in cow or pig bones, hides and connective tissues. Today, the gelatin in Jell-O is most likely to come from pigskin.

Going beyond the avoidance of "traditional meat products, dairy, etc." seems like a good idea to me. But, that's just me.

All animals should be respected & should have the ability to lead a natural & enjoyable life. This means not eating them, or abusing them in any way.
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#7 Old 08-03-2014, 01:09 PM
 
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Because when they say that they "love animals"... they mean that they love dogs, cats, ponies, fluffy bunnies, cute birdies etc... not cows, sheep, chickens, pigs & all of those other poor creatures.

Its speciesism.

We see it all throughout history...
- White people deserve human rights, but not blacks.
- Respect men, but not women.
- Praise one religion, f*ck the other...
& it goes on & on.

Just remember, the three stages of the truth are:
- Ridicule.
- Violent opposition.
- Acceptance.

People have always been this way.
We got there (or are getting there, slowly but surely), with the others... there is hope :')

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May the moon softly restore you by night,
May the rain wash away your worries,
May the breeze blow new strength into your being,
May you walk gently through the world & know its beauty all the days of your life".
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#8 Old 08-03-2014, 01:57 PM
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Which animals don't experience sentience?
Most actually, sentient animals represent a fairly small part of the animal kingdom. But some obvious examples would be those animals that lack brains.

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Originally Posted by Vegan Dave View Post
To your second point.....you avoid "meat & dairy", but would eat jello, or something with animal parts in it? Gelatin can come from the collagen in cow or pig bones, hides and connective tissues.
Right....I avoid meat and dairy but wouldn't have an issue eating something with gelatin. I've discussed this in other threads, but the short explanation is that gelatin is created from animal byproducts and I don't think the avoidance of byproducts makes a difference. I also find it inconsistent to avoid the direct consumption of byproducts while consuming products that make indirect use of animal byproducts (e.g., organic agricultural).

Anyhow, my point here is that its not black and white. Categorizing people as either "vegan" or "meat-eaters" is counterproductive because veganism goes beyond the avoidance of meat. I realize that the OP probably has in mind people that "love animals" while still eating big steaks for dinner, but at the same time I don't think the idea that anybody that "loves animals" should be vegan is accurate.
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#9 Old 08-03-2014, 05:36 PM
 
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I would assume the biggest thing is people are fed meat their whole lives, so it's hard for them to give it up even though they love animals.
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#10 Old 08-03-2014, 06:30 PM
 
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I loved animals for over 50 years. And for over 50 years I ate meat. People need to be where they are on their own journeys. We can expose things, we can explain things, but I really don't think we get very far by judging people.

I became vegan the day I was ready, and not a day sooner.
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#11 Old 08-03-2014, 07:20 PM
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"If you really cared about animals, you'd be vegan".

Consider how what you're saying, doesn't make sense to someone who's not vegan.

When vegans and vegetarians would tell me I didn't 'really' care about animals, because I ate them, I thought they were full of it. I knew I cared about animals, so therefore their idea that you could only care about animals if you didn't eat them, simply didn't ring true for me. I was proof you could care about animals and eat them! (And I knew pigs and cows and all the rest were sentient).

Besides, and I think I've said this before, if no one cared about animals while they were eating them, no one would have become a vegan or vegetarian. We care, it's just we either don't know how to make the change or whether it's possible. That's where vego advocates can help.

Rather than telling people what you think they should do, if they "really cared about animals", I recommend telling them why you do what you do and if they want to know, how you do it.

I usually say something like "I've always cared about animals, I've always known they were sentient and being vegetarian means that my actions match how I feel inside. I'm a lot more at peace with myself now". If someone wants my recipe for cheese free pesto after that, then awesome. If not, then they know where I stand and if they want to be threatened by that, that's their problem, not mine.

(If you haven't read it yet- Why We Loved Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear Cows by Dr Melanie Joy is a great read. Or watch her presentation on Carnism at this website-

http://www.carnism.org/

It explains why we have those blocks and to me, it makes sense.)
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#12 Old 08-03-2014, 09:39 PM
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If they love animals and they eat meat, one part of that statement is a lie.
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#13 Old 08-03-2014, 10:02 PM
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If they love animals and they eat meat, one part of that statement is a lie.
People and life are rarely so simple as that sentence suggests.

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#14 Old 08-03-2014, 10:13 PM
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People and life are rarely so simple as that sentence suggests.
Maybe they mean they love to EAT animals. Which is misleading.

Or maybe they only love certain animals (Pets) and don't care about the rest (Food animals). Also misleading.


If somebody loves animals, and I mean really love them. They wouldn't support their slaughter just because they taste good. So yeah, the sentence is valid.
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#15 Old 08-03-2014, 10:50 PM
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It's really not though.

Loving something, someone, some being, some body is not so simple as "I love them, therefore I always do what is right for them and in their best interest." There are unhealthy kinds of love, dysfunctional. Before I was vegan I loved animals. I loved all animals except fleas and mosquitoes. I understood the horrors that went on since I was ten or so, and I understood veganism was the right choice. I understood a lot about. Understanding how my love corresponded to an unhealthy relationship with my beloved did not manifest into action or change until I was ready to change. Eating animals is more than choosing who is for dinner, it is deeply embedded into cultures all over this planet and to change ones culture or modify it to fit ethics is a scary and hard process. It is saying the culture one is from is wrong. It creates an otherness about yourself and is, often, a line in the sand depending on conviction. I loved animals when I was little. I loved seeing orcas at Sea World and I loved breakfast bacon and waffles. I loved pigs, though, too. I did not think about who I was eating every time because in a socially acceptable norm, people don't.

The world cannot be simplified into modus ponens.

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#16 Old 08-04-2014, 12:58 AM
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It's really not though.

Loving something, someone, some being, some body is not so simple as "I love them, therefore I always do what is right for them and in their best interest." There are unhealthy kinds of love, dysfunctional. Before I was vegan I loved animals. I loved all animals except fleas and mosquitoes. I understood the horrors that went on since I was ten or so, and I understood veganism was the right choice. I understood a lot about. Understanding how my love corresponded to an unhealthy relationship with my beloved did not manifest into action or change until I was ready to change. Eating animals is more than choosing who is for dinner, it is deeply embedded into cultures all over this planet and to change ones culture or modify it to fit ethics is a scary and hard process. It is saying the culture one is from is wrong. It creates an otherness about yourself and is, often, a line in the sand depending on conviction. I loved animals when I was little. I loved seeing orcas at Sea World and I loved breakfast bacon and waffles. I loved pigs, though, too. I did not think about who I was eating every time because in a socially acceptable norm, people don't.

The world cannot be simplified into modus ponens.
Yeah of course loving somebody/thing won't result in somebody always doing things for their best interest. However, best interests and destroying a living being are way different and you are diminishing the act of killing to support your argument.

I'll use parents and children as an example to demonstrate real love.
Parents love their kids, but they might get a divorce because of personal reasons and that might not be in their kid's best interests. Okay...
But I find it impossible to accept that any (Sane) parent would kill their child for any reason, even if their own life was on the line. No reductio ad absurdum please.
Parents will run into a burning building to save their children, Parents will jump in front of a car to soften the blow to their kids, parents will put themselves between a gun and their kids to protect them. That is true love. Loving to watch Orcas in Seaworld isn't true love.

Socially accepted norms would never make a parent kill their child. That is why if you look at history, it is never a social norm to kill your kids. People just don't do that. Also take a look at all the controversy abortion is causing. People think it's wrong to even kill something that isn't a child yet. Why? Because parents love their children, if people loved animals.. They wouldn't be killing them.

This is why I call BS on people saying they love animals yet at the same time they will eat them. Sure you can like animals. You might love your dog. But if you really loved all animals, you wouldn't kill it and eat it.



PS: I'm not trying to simplify the world here. I'm talking about the misuse of the word love and the killing of animals.

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#17 Old 08-04-2014, 01:30 AM
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Ask any Vet or RSPCA worker if they eat meat. If they do does this mean they don't care for animal welfare ?

Bit of a pointless thread this.
In my opinion anyway.

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#18 Old 08-04-2014, 03:53 AM
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I struggle with people claiming that "the path toward veganism" is a personal journey and all that. It's like saying "oh, he's a sexist, but he's not going to grant women equal rights until he's ready on a personal level" or "yeah, she's a racist but I should totally respect that because she's on a personal journey that could take a lifetime".

This thought came to me after reading some of the posts in this thread.
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#19 Old 08-04-2014, 06:38 AM
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Most actually, sentient animals represent a fairly small part of the animal kingdom. But some obvious examples would be those animals that lack brains.
Anything with a central nervous system feels pain. Poke an oyster with a sharp object & it responds. So does a jellyfish. I still can't think of a non-sentient animal.

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Right....I avoid meat and dairy but wouldn't have an issue eating something with gelatin. I've discussed this in other threads, but the short explanation is that gelatin is created from animal byproducts and I don't think the avoidance of byproducts makes a difference.
That's where our opinions diverge. To me animal products come from.......animals. If someone doesn't eat steak, but has 3 fur coats......what's the difference? They are still exploiting animals. Avoiding animal byproducts avoids the exploitation of animals.

Different strokes......
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#20 Old 08-04-2014, 08:15 AM
 
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here is my question - how does it work out when you tell people they are wrong?
How does the conversation go - "well if you really loved animals you wouldn't eat them." What is the response?

Most likely defensive or pissed off. You can go on believing you are right (and you might be) but where the hell does that get you. Did these people stop eating animals because you said this? I doubt it.

I do believe in personal journeys and you can't push people. That being said, however, there is nothing wrong with advocating for change. A great model is to talk about how it has changed your life, your feelings, your ideas.

People don't like to be pushed. Look at smoking. Smoking was cool until it wasn't. It probably took over 30 years to make smoking the least bit unpopular. Pictures, images, statistics and information finally got through to the public about this issue. So keep the advocacy going.

But 30 years ago telling someone to stop smoking would simply not have worked. Saying, "If you really loved your kids you wouldn't smoke." would very likely not have worked either.

What seemed to work is time and constant exposure to the issue, let things build to a groundswell.

So the way I see it I am in at the beginning of this animal groundswell. I will do what I do, eat what I eat, talk to anyone who is interested, leave the others alone and do my advocacy work and let the chips fall where they may.
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#21 Old 08-04-2014, 08:17 AM
 
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as to the sexist and racist issues you make a good point.

But nothing changed, no legislation worked, until there was a good strong movement of people in place who wanted change and saw what was going on was wrong.

So we are not there yet, but we are growing. That is a wonderful thing. And there is, bit by bit, tiny bits of legislation about animals welfare. So it is an exciting time, at least for me.

Anyone else see it that way?
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#22 Old 08-04-2014, 08:21 AM
 
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I'll use parents and children as an example to demonstrate real love.
Parents love their kids, but they might get a divorce because of personal reasons and that might not be in their kid's best interests. Okay...
But I find it impossible to accept that any (Sane) parent would kill their child for any reason, even if their own life was on the line.

I'm going to jump in here only to say that just because you find it impossible to accept that any "sane" parent would kill their own child doesn't really mean anything. It happens every day, for various reasons, all around the world. I spent several years working as a forensic investigator and, yes, it unfortunately happens more than most people realize.

“Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.” - Thomas Edison

Simply see that you are at the center of the universe, and accept all things and beings as part of your infinite body. When you perceive that an act done to another is done to yourself, you have understood the great truth. - Lao Tzu
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#23 Old 08-04-2014, 08:55 PM
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I'm going to jump in here only to say that just because you find it impossible to accept that any "sane" parent would kill their own child doesn't really mean anything. It happens every day, for various reasons, all around the world. I spent several years working as a forensic investigator and, yes, it unfortunately happens more than most people realize.
Mind giving some examples?

When does a normal person decide.. "I should really kill my kid!"
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#24 Old 08-04-2014, 09:06 PM
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Ask any Vet or RSPCA worker if they eat meat. If they do does this mean they don't care for animal welfare ?

Bit of a pointless thread this.
In my opinion anyway.

Ta Ta ....Frame in very sunny Cornwall.
Just cuz somebody is a vet doesn't mean they love animals. They might like pets.. which what they work with most of the time, or they might even not care that much about animals.

My cousin became a radiologist. He didn't do it because he thought radiology was fun or interesting, he didn't even do it because he loved to help sick people (not saying hes a cold hearted *******, but this wasn't a huge factor) He did it because his father is a radiologist, his brother is one also, and he would get a big salary. Many people get jobs they aren't the biggest fans of, why are vets any different?

I just looked on the RSPCA website and like 95% of everything on there is about cats and dogs. Only tiny mentions about other types of animals. They are mostly trying to get people to take care of their pets.


Anyways... nobody can love animals and still support their slaughter. They are either thinking animals = pets, or just exaggerating posers.
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#25 Old 08-05-2014, 01:07 AM
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I struggle with people claiming that "the path toward veganism" is a personal journey and all that. It's like saying "oh, he's a sexist, but he's not going to grant women equal rights until he's ready on a personal level" or "yeah, she's a racist but I should totally respect that because she's on a personal journey that could take a lifetime".

This thought came to me after reading some of the posts in this thread.
I think that's a good point and if someone were saying "Well, we should just let people be who they are and not advocate for change" then you'd be absolutely right!

I won't speak for other advocates on the board, but for me, I don't just go "Oh, that person cares....But they still eat animals, personal journey, oh well!". Instead, I go "Hey, you and I both care for the animals, this is an issue you might be interested in....Would you also like to try my vegan brownies? They're delicious".

Setting up an "Us vs Them" mentality works wonderfully for people wanting to demonise another group, but as that's the very sort of system I'm working against (through all my advocacy) I don't want to use that tactic.

I find it more effective to talk to the common good in people. If someone is being racist, I don't just respond with "Don't be such a backwards thinking idiot, you sound like a racist/sexist idiot" (unless they're family members, which is a different type of conversation).

If I'm talking with strangers, I try and just appeal to who they WANT to be. Everyone wants to be fair, so I say "Oh, I don't think THAT'S a fair thing to say...." and relate a good story in opposition to their bad one. It happens quite a bit for me. Some people don't take it on, but others, you seem them start to re-evaluate what they think about the world. And you never even have to raise your voice very loudly....
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#26 Old 08-05-2014, 09:10 AM
 
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Tiger Lily - how did you get so smart and diplomatic? Good ideas.
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#27 Old 08-05-2014, 04:20 PM
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They are insincere and really don't love animals or they are too detached from the reality of where their food actually comes from.
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#28 Old 08-05-2014, 10:33 PM
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I think that's a good point and if someone were saying "Well, we should just let people be who they are and not advocate for change" then you'd be absolutely right!

I won't speak for other advocates on the board, but for me, I don't just go "Oh, that person cares....But they still eat animals, personal journey, oh well!". Instead, I go "Hey, you and I both care for the animals, this is an issue you might be interested in....Would you also like to try my vegan brownies? They're delicious".

Setting up an "Us vs Them" mentality works wonderfully for people wanting to demonise another group, but as that's the very sort of system I'm working against (through all my advocacy) I don't want to use that tactic.

I find it more effective to talk to the common good in people. If someone is being racist, I don't just respond with "Don't be such a backwards thinking idiot, you sound like a racist/sexist idiot" (unless they're family members, which is a different type of conversation).

If I'm talking with strangers, I try and just appeal to who they WANT to be. Everyone wants to be fair, so I say "Oh, I don't think THAT'S a fair thing to say...." and relate a good story in opposition to their bad one. It happens quite a bit for me. Some people don't take it on, but others, you seem them start to re-evaluate what they think about the world. And you never even have to raise your voice very loudly....
I did not mean that vegan activism benefits from black and white thinking or them vs. us thinking. But in my mind, I cannot treat speciecism less than sexism or racism. I know change is often accompanied by a gentle and humble approach, but in my mind, I simple can't settle for someone who might become veg if their personal journey allows it in fifty years...

It's not a personal journey kind of thing if beings suffer because of it. My activism is gentle (involving baked goods ), but my mind is raging.
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#29 Old 08-05-2014, 11:15 PM
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I've learned after being vegetarian for close to 10 years now that you can't expect people to change their diets unless they themselves are willing. I'm happy to answer questions when people ask why I am vegetarian. However, I've found when you try to tell people "if you loved animals you wouldn't eat meat" (even though its true), you are just "that vegan/vegetarian" in their eyes, and it makes other vegetarians and vegans look crazy.
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#30 Old 08-06-2014, 05:08 AM
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But in my mind, I cannot treat speciecism less than sexism or racism.
But in the real world we do.

For example, this morning, I drove 20 miles (there and back) to meet some friends and go for a 5 mile jog. My car windscreen was clean when I set off but when I arrived home, I noticed that there were quite a few dead bugs on the windscreen. It being a warm 'buggy' day this was something that I could have expected. And yet I chose to drive somewhere I didn't absolutely need to drive to in the knowledge that I would surely be killing bugs. If for that same journey, there was a very strong possibility that I was going to knock down and kill a person, then I wouldn't have made the journey. So I was guilty of speciesism and although it doesn't make it "right", I suspect that only a very tiny percentage of the world's population spend a lot of time trying to avoid death or injury to every single insect they encounter.


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