642 days on the Ornish heart-reversal program and gaining weight - panic - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 02-16-2014, 07:45 PM
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I’ve been putting on weight. This morning I was 2.4 kg heavier than just the last week. And I’ve been on a plateau for over 6 months.

The problem is probably just too many calories. And I think that is because of hunger pangs produced by eating too many carbs.  I’ve been overeating high carb foods like rice and senbei, which just leads to more hunger spikes.

Brown rice does not help controlling hunger any more than white rice. It is just as much a trigger food.

Tofu is much less calories, but also much less filling, and gives me some digestive problems.

I’m seriously thinking about going off the Ornish heart-reversal program for just a couple of weeks and low-carbing just to see if I can get my hunger under control.

I’ve been on this diet for 642 days now – going on 2 years. In the past, whenever I’ve dieted and lost a lot of weight, the rebound has always started about 2 years into the diet. I’m deathly afraid of that happening again.

Yet, I’ve been “basically vegan” and no oil, no nuts for so long now I am hesitant about eating animal products again and what that will do to my heart. My doctor and dietician both insist that certain animal products, such as skinless chicken and certain fish will not increase my cholesterol.

I don’t believe in the Atkins idea that somehow not eating carbs blocks weight gain. But I do know that low-carbing controls appetite, so I’m not thinking about food all the time.

Could it really hurt for just a couple of weeks to see?

Here’s what I think I’ll do for a couple of weeks to try to get things under control:

1. Instead of grains, like rice, I will have either boneless, skinless breast of chicken or tuna.

2. I will continue to eat non-starchy vegetables, such as tomatoes, cucumbers, green beans and mushrooms. But I will stop eating starchy ones, such as corn-on-the-cob and sweet potatoes.

3. I might also have some cottage cheese.

This will bring my carbs way down, protein substantially up, and be a low intake of cholesterol, though not as low as the heart-reversal program.

Hopefully it will help control hunger and not be bad for my heart. Anyway, I’m going to try it for a couple of weeks. I’m in a panic right now about what’s happening to my weight. I’ve gained 11 lb since February 1st! Half of that just in the last 3 days!

No legumes suggestions please.

doug

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#2 Old 02-16-2014, 08:04 PM
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You can do some research on why you gained weight with carbs .... for certain carbs contain more water and fiber.... you may not be eating the right kind of carbs .... how do you feel about quinoa or perhaps sweet potatoes or maybe cauliflower? Just some suggestions .... Good luck!
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#3 Old 02-16-2014, 08:25 PM
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The only reason I can see for gaining more weight is that certain carbs - especially high glycemic ones - trigger hunger urges and I eat more so I eat too many calories.

 

Quinoa is not generally available here. Plus it is even higher calorie than rice. My problem now is calories I think.

 

Sweet potatoes aren't as high calorie as rice, but they are high calories. And they also seem to trigger hunger urges.

 

Ordinary vegetables, including cauliflower, are fine and I will continue to eat those.

 

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#4 Old 02-16-2014, 08:38 PM
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Doug , Do you use salt sometimes salt packs on water weight which you can easily lose the weight by reducing salt ....
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#5 Old 02-16-2014, 08:45 PM
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Doug , Do you use salt sometimes salt packs on water weight which you can easily lose the weight by reducing salt ....


I don't add extra salt to anything I eat. I don't even have salt in the house.

 

I think it's the extra calories from the grains.

 

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#6 Old 02-16-2014, 09:29 PM
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Are you exercising at all? Walking? Running? Yoga? Swimming? If you aren't, you might want to at least give walking a try.  


Anytime I think I'm perfect, I remember that my cousin lives on an island, and I've never walked over to visit her.
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#7 Old 02-16-2014, 09:33 PM
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Are you exercising at all? Walking? Running? Yoga? Swimming? If you aren't, you might want to at least give walking a try.  

 

Yes, I've done regular exercise throughout.

 

Really, the problem is calories in. I'm just eating to many. And I'm getting huge hunger attacks, I'm guessing from so many high-glycemic carbs.

 

doug

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#8 Old 02-16-2014, 09:44 PM
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How much do you eat in a day? When do you eat? When do you overeat? I can understand why you would be tempted my low-carbing, but at the same time you say thst high-glycemic grains are to blame. Why not use the fiber in low-glycemic grains and vegetables to help you even those spikes? What about legumes?
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#9 Old 02-16-2014, 09:53 PM
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How much do you eat in a day? When do you eat? When do you overeat? I can understand why you would be tempted my low-carbing, but at the same time you say thst high-glycemic grains are to blame. Why not use the fiber in low-glycemic grains and vegetables to help you even those spikes? What about legumes?

 

I had been trying to keep under 1700 calories/day. But it's been creeping up lately. I'm sure I'm well exceeding 2000 calories lately, and that's the problem.

 

Usually I have breakfast - rice lately. That's probably where the problem starts. I've tried tofu instead of rice. It helps with weight control, but causes some digestive problems.

 

Then I will have lunch - usually a salad with non-oil dressing.

 

Then I get snacking urges and might have some senbei. But all the snacks have carbs: fruits, senbei, corn. And I just feel like eating and eating. I'm basically always hungry.

 

There are no low-glycemic grains. Brown rice, for example, has almost the same glycemic index as white rice. I've tried it. It tastes better. It might even be healthier for you. But it definitely is not more "filling" for me. I get the exact same hunger spikes. And it is very high calorie, which is the problem.

 

As requested in my post, I'd rather not get into talking about legumes again. That's always a frustrating dead end. :)

 

Thanks,

 

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#10 Old 02-16-2014, 10:06 PM
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Chicken and Fish can easily raise one's cholesterol.....especially if your'e sensitive to dietary cholesterol. But they are lower in saturated fat so they impact would be less than if you ate beef, pork, etc.

In any case, why chicken and fish instead of nuts and seeds? Protein, metabolically speaking, is similar to carbohydrates....so if you're trying to reduce your carbohydrate load you'd want fats not protein rich foods. So why not try nuts and seeds? I doubt that would help with weight loss though, especially if your food troubles are related to an addictive relationship to food.
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#11 Old 02-16-2014, 10:20 PM
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Chicken and Fish can easily raise one's cholesterol.....especially if your'e sensitive to dietary cholesterol. But they are lower in saturated fat so they impact would be less than if you ate beef, pork, etc.

In any case, why chicken and fish instead of nuts and seeds? Protein, metabolically speaking, is similar to carbohydrates....so if you're trying to reduce your carbohydrate load you'd want fats not protein rich foods. So why not try nuts and seeds? I doubt that would help with weight loss though, especially if your food troubles are related to an addictive relationship to food.

 

Well, my LDL is currently 64 and my total cholesterol is 122. Excellent. But achieved largely by following the Ornish program. Though I have been taking 1 statin each evening too. My doctor and dietician at the hospital swear adding some skinless breast of chicken and certain fish will not raise my cholesterol. I am a bit worried about it. But at the moment I'm more worried about a weight rebound.

 

As for why chicken and fish and not nuts and seeds the answer is obvious for me. 100 g of chicken or fish have about 100 calories. 100 g of nuts (e.g. almonds) have about 600 calories.

 

My concern at the moment is not rebounding my weight. So I want to keep calories under control.

 

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#12 Old 02-16-2014, 10:57 PM
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My doctor and dietician at the hospital swear adding some skinless breast of chicken and certain fish will not raise my cholesterol. I am a bit worried about it. But at the moment I'm more worried about a weight rebound.
I don't get why they would "swear" this because dietary cholesterol is likely to increase your cholesterol......
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As for why chicken and fish and not nuts and seeds the answer is obvious for me. 100 g of chicken or fish have about 100 calories. 100 g of nuts (e.g. almonds) have about 600 calories.
Boneless chicken breast has around 180 calories per 100 grams....but most of that is water weight. But chicken and fish are more calorie dense than vegetables and starchy foods and much of the protein in them is going to end up as carbohydrate anyways.
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#13 Old 02-16-2014, 11:07 PM
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I'm not following what you are saying.

 

At any rate, 100 g of boneless, skinless breast of chicken only has 107 calories and 2.2 g of fat. And only 49 mg of cholesterol. And it has 19.6 g of protein.

 

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#14 Old 02-17-2014, 12:12 AM
 
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Too much tofu will upset a lot of people's stomachs because it lacks fiber (and rice doesn't help much, because rice doesn't have much fiber in it).

 

You need more veggies.  Many of the vegetables you listed are very high in water content, and don't have much fiber (cucumber, tomato).  They may not be substantial for this reason.

 

Have you tried eating more vegetables, or just vegetables, temporarily?  Particularly, large helpings of leafy greens.

 

You can eat as many carrots and leafy greens as you want without loading on the calories.  Carrots are "high" GI, but they contain very few calories for their bulk.

 

 

Low carb diets don't suppress appetite- they result in powerful carb cravings, and eating large amounts of other foods which are dangerously high in protein and fat.

 

Complex carbohydrates are the best source of energy- particularly when from vegetables where they are buffered with lots of fiber.

 

Switching from high GI foods like rice to veggies is tough for a few days, but a lot of times cold turkey is the best way- you have to work hard to fight carb cravings- but that will help push the reset button on the cycle you've gotten into.  Then you can more slowly reintroduce complex carbs.

 

Brown rice is not much better than white rice- though the additional fiber is a small benefit.

Look to black rice for a superior rice.

 

Otherwise, veggies are your best bet.

 

Mushrooms are fine too, but they're kind of expensive to fill up on, even in Asia.

 

 

 

 

Eating meat, even chicken and fish, will raise your cholesterol, and it's not necessary in order to get your diet back in order and cut out the high GI carbs.

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#15 Old 02-17-2014, 12:15 AM
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I had been trying to keep under 1700 calories/day. But it's been creeping up lately. I'm sure I'm well exceeding 2000 calories lately, and that's the problem.

 

Usually I have breakfast - rice lately. That's probably where the problem starts. I've tried tofu instead of rice. It helps with weight control, but causes some digestive problems.

 

Then I will have lunch - usually a salad with non-oil dressing.

 

Then I get snacking urges and might have some senbei. But all the snacks have carbs: fruits, senbei, corn. And I just feel like eating and eating. I'm basically always hungry.

 

There are no low-glycemic grains. Brown rice, for example, has almost the same glycemic index as white rice. I've tried it. It tastes better. It might even be healthier for you. But it definitely is not more "filling" for me. I get the exact same hunger spikes. And it is very high calorie, which is the problem.

 

As requested in my post, I'd rather not get into talking about legumes again. That's always a frustrating dead end. :)

 

Thanks,

 

doug

 

I don't know why you continue to eat rice if you feel that it's not working for you. Can you not try oats, millet, quinoa (order online if it's not available to you in your town), other types of rice (black, red etc.). Do you eat only rice for breakfast? I would add a lot more vegetables. Carrot, sweet potatoes, parsnip. Is it a green salad for lunch? You might something more heartier than that to be able to last through the afternoon.

 

I simply cannot accept that adding animal products into your diet is the answer. I hope you understand my skepticism since this is a vegan forum.

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#16 Old 02-17-2014, 12:17 AM
 
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Also:

 

If you're in Japan, look for Okara (the fiber left behind after making soymilk for tofu).

 

It will fill you up fast.

 

I like to mix 50% Okara and 50% black rice.  The nutritional profile is excellent, and it's very filling.

 

The texture takes a bit of getting used to (without the black rice, it's not palatable), but you get used to it fast, and it satisfies (and it's easy on the stomach, unlike too much tofu).

 

White or brown rice work too, but I don't recommend them, because they're junk food compared to black rice (which is excellent in many ways- from the fiber and higher protein content, to the rich pigments and antioxidants).

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#17 Old 02-17-2014, 12:55 AM
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I have been eating lots of baby raw carrots with non-oil ginger dressing. It has been one of my favorite snacks. I really feel I've been eating tons of veggies:

 

A big lunch salad of tomato, cucumber and mushrooms.

Multiple servings of 100 g packages of baby carrots (only 35 calories each).

Usually a bag of 300 g of frozen mixed veggies (102 calories) or green beans (85 calories).

Often a can of crushed tomatoes for a sauce (120 calories.)

 

And I've also been eating a couple of small apples a day (60 calories each).

 

So I have, and intend to continue to have lots of veggies per day. I'm not a "carb restrictions stops weight gain" theorist. I'm just trying to control my hunger so I can control my calorie intake.

 

I'm saying that rice - in any decent amount - is just way way too calorific, and triggers hunger spikes. Brown or white. And a tiny 1/2 C serving of rice is a waste of time.

 

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#18 Old 02-17-2014, 12:59 AM
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I don't know why you continue to eat rice if you feel that it's not working for you. Can you not try oats, millet, quinoa (order online if it's not available to you in your town), other types of rice (black, red etc.). Do you eat only rice for breakfast? I would add a lot more vegetables. Carrot, sweet potatoes, parsnip. Is it a green salad for lunch? You might something more heartier than that to be able to last through the afternoon.

 

I simply cannot accept that adding animal products into your diet is the answer. I hope you understand my skepticism since this is a vegan forum.

 

Well, I stopped today! :)

 

But oats have way too many calories. And quinoa has more calories than rice! Millet? Humans can eat that? My java sparrows love it, but I didn't know it was available for people. I don't remember seeing it in my supermarket. Just at the pet store. I really do eat LOTS of vegetable each day (see my other note).

 

I understand your skepticism. I am just at my wit's end here. I have seen every diet in the past end in a rebound starting about 2 years after weight loss. I'm deathly afraid of that happening again. I don't have any more chances, so I'm trying to shake things up.

 

doug

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#19 Old 02-17-2014, 01:10 AM
 
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Doug,

 

Did you see my recommendation above regarding Okara?

It's not usually available in the West, but in Asia it's a great low calorie way of filling yourself up and helping to squash carb cravings with something substantial feeling.

 

Quote:

Also:

 

If you're in Japan, look for Okara (the fiber left behind after making soymilk for tofu).

 

It will fill you up fast.

 

I like to mix 50% Okara and 50% black rice.  The nutritional profile is excellent, and it's very filling.

 

The texture takes a bit of getting used to (without the black rice, it's not palatable), but you get used to it fast, and it satisfies (and it's easy on the stomach, unlike too much tofu).

 

White or brown rice work too, but I don't recommend them, because they're junk food compared to black rice (which is excellent inmany ways- from the fiber and higher protein content, to the rich pigments and antioxidants).

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#20 Old 02-17-2014, 01:13 AM
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Doug,

 

Did you see my recommendation above regarding Okara?

It's not usually available in the West, but in Asia it's a great low calorie way of filling yourself up and helping to squash carb cravings with something substantial feeling.

 

 

Yes, I saw it. You mentioned it was not palatable without the black rice. But that would be adding lots of calories then, right?

 

Still thinking about what to do.

 

Thanks,

 

doug

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#21 Old 02-17-2014, 01:33 AM
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I don't know why you continue to eat rice if you feel that it's not working for you. Can you not try oats, millet, quinoa (order online if it's not available to you in your town), other types of rice (black, red etc.). Do you eat only rice for breakfast? I would add a lot more vegetables. Carrot, sweet potatoes, parsnip. Is it a green salad for lunch? You might something more heartier than that to be able to last through the afternoon.

 

I simply cannot accept that adding animal products into your diet is the answer. I hope you understand my skepticism since this is a vegan forum.

Oh, I wanted to also explain, the reason I added rice in was because of my endless, ceaseless digestive problems since going vegan. Finally, finally after nearly two years I got that under control - by eating white rice. Digestion returned to comfortable and normal.

 

But the calories are now causing the weight problem.

 

doug

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#22 Old 02-17-2014, 01:49 AM
 
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Yes, I saw it. You mentioned it was not palatable without the black rice. But that would be adding lots of calories then, right?

 

Still thinking about what to do.

 

Thanks,

 

doug

 

Well, it's mainly due to texture- because it's a coarse mushy texture... like mashed potato, but not as smooth.  A few bites are OK, but then it becomes kind of unpleasant to eat a lot of.

 

You can also make it palatable by adding others things to improve the texture aside from rice.

 

But even adding 50% black rice (which is better than white or brown by a large margin), you're not increasing calories that much.  The main point is that it's very high in fiber, which helps get a sense of fullness.

 

You could, over time, reduce the rice and become accustomed to the texture of plain Okara.

I've gotten down to around 25% or so rice and still been able to enjoy it, with a bit of spice, vinegar, etc.

 

I've also eaten it with just vegetables instead of rice (when I was out of rice).  If you mix them together, the crunch of the veggies cancels out the mushiness of the Okara pretty well.

 

I prefer it with rice, but it can be eaten without if you match it with something nice and crunchy. :)

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#23 Old 02-17-2014, 06:18 AM
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Oh the carbs. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. I'm not sure I follow your logic as to why you should eat meat to lose weight, though and I definitly don't see how cheese could help you in any way. Usually, your best bet is to eat food low in calories and high in fiber(to cut you hunger). Beans are very filling and are excellent sources of proteins and fiber. So if I'd try a diet focused on mostly beans, fruits and veggies. As a word of caution, though, try to switch progressively because very high fibers diet takes some time for the digestive system to adjust to and switching to fast can mess up your bowels.

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#24 Old 02-17-2014, 06:55 AM
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Oh the carbs. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. I'm not sure I follow your logic as to why you should eat meat to lose weight, though and I definitly don't see how cheese could help you in any way. Usually, your best bet is to eat food low in calories and high in fiber(to cut you hunger). Beans are very filling and are excellent sources of proteins and fiber. So if I'd try a diet focused on mostly beans, fruits and veggies. As a word of caution, though, try to switch progressively because very high fibers diet takes some time for the digestive system to adjust to and switching to fast can mess up your bowels.

 

Well, the low-fat cheese is just 224 calories per 200 g container and has 34 g of protein! So it is very "filling" and provides a huge amount of the minimum requirement of protein for the day, and almost no fat.

 

I don't find that high fiber foods are filling. They just give me digestive problems.

 

I really don't want to digress into beans again, because I tried for well over a year to get used to them, and I just can't. Except maybe a small amount of edamame seems ok.

 

I really don't know what to do. I'm looking for (1) filling things that (2) don't give me digestive problems and (3) are low calorie and (4) provide some protein.

 

I'm already eating plenty of vegetables. Grains are too high in calories. Legumes upset my stomach.

 

I could avoid grains, nuts, legumes, oils and all animal products and basically go on a starvation diet I suppose. That doesn't seem sustainable though.

 

doug

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#25 Old 02-17-2014, 07:25 AM
 
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I really don't know what to do. I'm looking for (1) filling things that (2) don't give me digestive problems and (3) are low calorie and (4) provide some protein.

 

Can you be more specific about your digestive problems?

 

Any details can help.  Do you have IBS?  How long does it take to happen after you eat?  Where is the upset, and how does it manifest?  What foods trigger it, and how?

 

 

Protein is very easy to get enough of- if absolutely need be, you could use a protein shake.  The most important thing is to figure out what's upsetting your stomach.

 

As to being full; a lot of that has to do with stomach capacity.  Sometimes it's worth going on a liquid diet for a while to kind of reset everything, if you find your eating is getting out of hand.

 

 

If you're looking for something low calorie and filling, have you tried Konjac?

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#26 Old 02-17-2014, 09:46 AM
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I'm not following what you are saying.

At any rate, 100 g of boneless, skinless breast of chicken only has 107 calories and 2.2 g of fat. And only 49 mg of cholesterol. And it has 19.6 g of protein.

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According to here:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/poultry-products/703/2

100 grams of boneless skinless chicken breast has 165 calories and 85 mg of cholesterol. On the other hand 100 grams of sweet potato has 90 calories and 100 grams of brown rice has 110 calories. Except nuts and seeds, whole plant foods are going to be less calorie dense than chicken breast so what advantage is there to eating the chicken breast for weight loss?

As for the protein, the body can't use protein for energy so any excess protein you consume (e.g., beyond what your body needs for tissue synthesis) will be converted into carbohydrates. So eating high protein foods is, in reality, just an indirect way to consume carbohydrates.

If you a medical condition, namely your digestive problems, that prevent you from eating a large class of plant-based foods then perhaps including some animal products in your diet would be best and the consequences to your heart health would be worth it. But a vegetarian site is probably not the best place to discuss eating meat.
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#27 Old 02-17-2014, 10:51 AM
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On poultry:
http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/poultry/

Do you even lift? You may start a very low weight compound lifting routine and gradually add weight, this will burn quite a bit of calories. If you bicycle or use the treadmill after lifting when your glycogen stores are depleted, you may mimic the ketogenic effects of a low carb diet until you eat some carbs again.

http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/
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#28 Old 02-17-2014, 11:26 AM
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Just a gentle reminder that pro-meat posts are not allowed.

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#29 Old 02-17-2014, 01:06 PM
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I find it hard to believe that as an adult male, consuming about 2000 claories a day is the reason behind your weight gain. If you've been eating only 1700 calories for a while, then you've been borderline starving yourself and you're only gaining weight because your body is holding onto the energy you are finally giving it.

 

Plant foods are perfect for humans. They contain the perfect ratio of fiber, water, and nutrients to activate our satiety receptors before we can overconsume energy.

 

Just keep it WHOLE (unprocessed) foods and you'll be FINE! And yes, oils are a processed food, so no oil either! Let nature take care of the packaging. Eat like nature intended; your body will balance out.

 

Diet isn't everything either. Also keep track of your hydration, amount of sleep, stress level, and exercise. Those are ALL factors in good health. Slipping up on even one of these (ie, sounds like you're doing a lot of stressing over that calorie counting and all) could easily contribute to weight gain as well.

 

If grains and legumes don't agree with you, DON"T EAT THEM! Fruits, root vegetables, and winter squashes are your best easy-to-digest sources for calories. Stop worrying about protein; there's protein in everything. Stop worrying about calories, but if you do, worry about getting enough, not too much. A plant-based diet is one of abundance!

 

Give your body some time, it's been through a lot in its lifetime! Keep on eating a whole-foods, plant-based diet. Keep practising healthy lifestyle habits. It will balance out!

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#30 Old 02-17-2014, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by logic View Post


According to here:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/poultry-products/703/2

100 grams of boneless skinless chicken breast has 165 calories and 85 mg of cholesterol. On the other hand 100 grams of sweet potato has 90 calories and 100 grams of brown rice has 110 calories. Except nuts and seeds, whole plant foods are going to be less calorie dense than chicken breast so what advantage is there to eating the chicken breast for weight loss?

As for the protein, the body can't use protein for energy so any excess protein you consume (e.g., beyond what your body needs for tissue synthesis) will be converted into carbohydrates. So eating high protein foods is, in reality, just an indirect way to consume carbohydrates.

If you a medical condition, namely your digestive problems, that prevent you from eating a large class of plant-based foods then perhaps including some animal products in your diet would be best and the consequences to your heart health would be worth it. But a vegetarian site is probably not the best place to discuss eating meat.

 

Different sites give different figures. I got mine from CalorieKing which says it is 107 calories. I just checked the USDA nutritional database and they give 120 calories. See

 

http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/855?fg=&man=&lfacet=&format=&count=&max=25&offset=&sort=&qlookup=skinless+boneless+breast+of+chicken

 

Some relevant points:

 

100 g of sweet potato is teensy tiny. 100 g of rice is also an incredibly small amount. It is not a main serving. It's a tiny side-dish not even worth preparing I think. Plus it has only trace amounts of protein.

 

The point I was making was that these starchy foods, while tasty, trigger hunger spikes for me. That's the main issue. I'm eating too much. I'm trying to control my appetite so I can get my weight under control. These foods like potatoes and rice just make me hungrier. They are not filling. They are just "wasted calories" to me. That's the problem I'm having. I can eliminate rice from my vegan diet but then I have digestive problems. Endless digestive problems since starting in May 2012. If I add rice the digestive problems go away. But my weight starts creeping up and I am hungry all the time.

 

That's the dilemma I'm trying to solve.

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
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