642 days on the Ornish heart-reversal program and gaining weight - panic - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 02-18-2014, 06:55 PM
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I've eaten white rice on its own, and felt satisfied for a few minutes, pretty hungry again after half an hour.
Any feeling, other than the feeling of it going down your throat, you get from rice within a few minutes is going to be psychology. It takes far more than a few minutes for rice to digest.

Someone with a normal insulin response shouldn't experience a major spike or drop in blood sugar after eating rice, you only see these spikes in people with impair insulin sensitivity (i.e., people that are starting to develop type 2 diabetes). I could eat a bunch white rice covered with sugar, or better yet plain white potatoes, and my blood sugar would stay in a normal range and there would be no blood sugar crush.
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That's a good point.  Based on what he said, though, it sounds like he eats a lot of white rice, or a lot of fat.  If he's gaining weight by only consuming 40 grams of protein a day, that implies most of his diet is white rice with only a garnish of vegetables, or a lot of oil.
I'm not sure what he is eating and he hasn't given that many details.

In any case, the populations that have traditionally consumed large amounts of rice are some of the leaner populations on the global......rice doesn't make people overweight. But rice, especially white rice, can be a problem if someone is developing insulin resistance.
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#62 Old 02-20-2014, 05:14 AM
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How about things like vegetable barley?

 

I found how to make a killer hot/sour soup that I'm completely hooked on!

 

I find soup very filling. In fact I made a kinda wedding soup with okara bulgar balls.


How many calories? And can it be made with less than 10 minutes preparation? :)

 

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#63 Old 02-20-2014, 05:51 AM
 
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Any feeling, other than the feeling of it going down your throat, you get from rice within a few minutes is going to be psychology. It takes far more than a few minutes for rice to digest.

 

Quite probably.  Hunger and fullness are largely psychological- though it might also be something more subtle.  The stomach seems to be to some degree a sensory organ, which has to be interpreted by the brain.  Just the sense of substance in the stomach, or taste of food, may settle the nervous hunger that sets in after a long day of no eating.

 

Why one seems to become hungry again quickly after eating starches- that may be a more difficult matter to answer.  None the less, it's widely reported.  For whatever reason- physiological or psychological, or something in between- it's of concern for people who struggle with excess appetite and weight gain.

 

 

 

douglerner, have you tried other methods to satiate your hunger?

 

Hunger can be alleviated by imagining that you're eating- particularly pantomiming, and imagining every taste and texture as you do it.

It doesn't last a very long time, but it can put off those hunger pangs for a half an hour or so, and can be repeated if need be.

 

Imaginary food is zero calories (actually, the process probably burns a couple calories).

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#64 Old 02-20-2014, 03:41 PM
 
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In any case, the populations that have traditionally consumed large amounts of rice are some of the leaner populations on the global......rice doesn't make people overweight. But rice, especially white rice, can be a problem if someone is developing insulin resistance.

 

Kempner's "rice diet"  (a precursor to the Pritikin diet) was shown to clinically reverse or ameliorate metabolic syndrome/diabetes.

 

http://www.drmcdougall.com/2013/12/31/walter-kempner-md-founder-of-the-rice-diet/

Carbohydrates have been unnecessarily demonized (largely due to industry propaganda).

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#65 Old 02-20-2014, 03:57 PM
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Why one seems to become hungry again quickly after eating starches- that may be a more difficult matter to answer.  None the less, it's widely reported.
Its widely reported by people after they've read some low-carbohydrate diet guru but its not widely reported in studies. The consumption of starchy whole foods is correlated with lower BMI, not exactly what you'd expect if they weren't satiating.

Personally, in terms of satiation, I don't even notice the difference between white and brown rice. 2 hours ago I ate a big bowl of white basmati rice covered with a vegetable/legume curry and I'm still stuffed.
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Kempner's "rice diet"  (a precursor to the Pritikin diet) was shown to clinically reverse or ameliorate metabolic syndrome/diabetes.

quote name="unethicalvegan" url="/t/144895/642-days-on-the-ornish-heart-reversal-program-and-gaining-weight-panic/60#post_3280003"]
Kempner's "rice diet"  (a precursor to the Pritikin diet) was shown to clinically reverse or ameliorate metabolic syndrome/diabetes.



http://www.drmcdougall.com/2013/12/31/walter-kempner-md-founder-of-the-rice-diet/
Carbohydrates have been unnecessarily demonized (largely due to industry propaganda).
I think its funny that you are quoting something from McDougall.
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#66 Old 02-20-2014, 09:01 PM
 
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Carbohydrates have been unnecessarily demonized (largely due to industry propaganda).

 

Agreed.  Carbohydrates are the healthiest energy source for human beings.

I just favor grains with better nutritional profiles than rice (rice requires more careful balancing, and compensating for its large calorie load- particularly for people struggling with weight gain).  Almost any other grain is a good choice- including black and wild rice.

 

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Its widely reported by people after they've read some low-carbohydrate diet guru but its not widely reported in studies. The consumption of starchy whole foods is correlated with lower BMI, not exactly what you'd expect if they weren't satiating.
 

 

I've heard it widely reported by people who have never heard of the low carb craze.

 

Particularly for people accustomed to eating more protein and fat, more starchy foods like rice have a self reported shorter term effect on satiation.

 

The traditional diets that are high in rice are also high in vegetables and lower in meats.

I don't think we can draw conclusions like that without better controls.

 

 


Personally, in terms of satiation, I don't even notice the difference between white and brown rice. 2 hours ago I ate a big bowl of white basmati rice covered with a vegetable/legume curry and I'm still stuffed.
 

Legumes do a better job of satiating.

 

Beans or lentils can keep feeling me full all day.

 

I don't know if the difference between white and brown is enough to notice, particularly in the context of other foods that are much more filling.

 

I've found black rice quite filling, though.

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#67 Old 02-21-2014, 12:24 AM
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I just favor grains with better nutritional profiles than rice (rice requires more careful balancing, and compensating for its large calorie load- particularly for people struggling with weight gain).
All the grains, including rice, have similar calorie density so one doesn't need to be any more careful than they are with whole wheat, oats, barley, etc.
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Particularly for people accustomed to eating more protein and fat, more starchy foods like rice have a self reported shorter term effect on satiation.
Considering that people that eat more protein and fat are, on average, heavier than people that meat more starchy foods......I'm guessing this is because people are eating more when they eat protein and fat rich foods. People typically judge foods by volume instead of calories.
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The traditional diets that are high in rice are also high in vegetables and lower in meats.
I don't think we can draw conclusions like that without better controls.
And yet you are drawing numerous conclusions about rice based on....well I'm not sure. You've said it promotes weight gain, you've claimed its not satiating, etc.....but when the epidemiological evidence conflicts with what you want to think we need "better controls".
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#68 Old 02-21-2014, 01:30 AM
 
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All the grains, including rice, have similar calorie density so one doesn't need to be any more careful than they are with whole wheat, oats, barley, etc.
 

 

Similar calorie density, but lower macro nutrient density.  Marshmallows also have the same caloric density by volume (or even less calories per volume) than rice.

 

I know you don't agree much with calorie based weight loss programs, but in my view, rice is less valuable nutritionally than other grains because I see it as more empty calories.

 

I eat rice sometimes.  But I also believe it's junk food (which is fine to eat in moderation).

Other times, I will prefer more nutritionally satisfying grains.

 

 

Quote:
Considering that people that eat more protein and fat are, on average, heavier than people that meat more starchy foods......I'm guessing this is because people are eating more when they eat protein and fat rich foods. People typically judge foods by volume instead of calories.

 

If that's the case, then marshmallows are superior to rice for weight loss.

 

Why should people not make a habit of eating marshmallows?  Because they don't provide much protein or other nutrients.  The same reason rice is junk food IMO.

 

Your definition of junk food is different from mine, because we have slightly different view on nutrition.  And that's OK.

I respect your views, and I think we can agree to disagree on this point.

 

Quote:
And yet you are drawing numerous conclusions about rice based on....well I'm not sure.

 

Its nutritional data.  In my view, it represents relatively empty calories.  That may be fine if you need more calories in your diet, but for most people, that amounts of junk food.

 

The main thing I look at when deciding if a food is likely to promote weight gain is its nutritional profile.

If you're eating white rice, you're more eating empty calories.  If you're eating black rice, or almost any other grain, you're getting a lot more macro nutrients in the process that makes those calories more nutritionally valuable (which means you can safely cut calories in other areas of your diet without risking malnutrition).

 

Again, our views on weight loss seem to be quite different.  That's OK, and I respect your views on this matter.  Different methods and ways of seeing it may work for different people.

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#69 Old 02-21-2014, 10:25 AM
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I'm not concerned with weight loss or gain personally; I just don't think that rice should be put in the junk food marshmallow category. For those of us in this situation, rice is a lovely food that goes well with just about every veggie and legume.
River and mags102 like this.
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#70 Old 02-21-2014, 10:35 AM
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Also Doug, if you're serious about continued health improvement and weight loss, ten minutes is not long enough to prepare a decent meal. I don't know how you plan to eat animal products with a ten- minute preparation window; they take longer than vegan food: just to kill the bacteria on their dead flesh takes more than ten minutes.
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#71 Old 02-21-2014, 03:52 PM
 
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Its widely reported by people after they've read some low-carbohydrate diet guru but its not widely reported in studies. The consumption of starchy whole foods is correlated with lower BMI, not exactly what you'd expect if they weren't satiating.

Personally, in terms of satiation, I don't even notice the difference between white and brown rice. 2 hours ago I ate a big bowl of white basmati rice covered with a vegetable/legume curry and I'm still stuffed.
I think its funny that you are quoting something from McDougall.

 

I knew you would. ;)

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#72 Old 02-21-2014, 07:58 PM
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Doug; are you okay with whole wheat?
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#73 Old 02-23-2014, 08:18 PM
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You can order whole wheat ramen (baked not fried) and steam some veggies and also they sell brown rice wrappers you can put some lovely fresh veggies in for summer rolls or baked spring rolls. You can get them from Amazon. Ready in 10 minutes. 200 calories per serving plus veggies so it would be well under 500 calories a meal.
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#74 Old 02-23-2014, 08:24 PM
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Also soup! Its very filling and low in calories. A simple udon soup with a side salad could be an under 500 calorie meal that will keep you full from lunch until dinner. I like mixed grain and quinoua sushi as well.
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#75 Old 02-23-2014, 09:05 PM
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You can order whole wheat ramen (baked not fried) and steam some veggies and also they sell brown rice wrappers you can put some lovely fresh veggies in for summer rolls or baked spring rolls. You can get them from Amazon. Ready in 10 minutes. 200 calories per serving plus veggies so it would be well under 500 calories a meal.
A few weeks ago I was looking for brown rice noodles, whole wheat ramen, etc at a large Asian grocery store and they didn't sale any of them. I found that strange....perhaps the "eat whole grains" message hasn't penetrated Asian culture much? Oddly I was able to find the brown rice noodles at a American grocery store but they were a total rip-off ($4.50 a bag).
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#76 Old 02-23-2014, 09:13 PM
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I can get brown rice noodles but ramen I can't get them here either, Logic. Amazon is the only way I can get them.
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#77 Old 02-24-2014, 03:03 AM
 
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perhaps the "eat whole grains" message hasn't penetrated Asian culture much?

 

This does seem to be the case.  I have had brown rice at some health-oriented veg*n restaurants in Asia, but it's rarely offered or available elsewhere.

 

Brown rice also seems technically more complicated to make things out of- North American companies have invested in the process pretty heavily due to gluten free eating today, but Asian companies probably don't have an incentive (or know of one) yet.

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#78 Old 02-24-2014, 07:30 AM
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Please bear in mind that I'm no doctor. But if memory serves me right, the Ornish diet is a very low fat diet (less than 10% of calories from fat). Maybe it's not the carbs that are so much the problem as too little fat.

 

I was doing an Ornish-like type of diet for a while last year (like Barnard and McDougall) and while I did lose some weight, I found myself unsatisfied much of the time (not hungry, just not satisfied) and it led me to binge out on junk food. For the last week I've been adding back some fats in small amounts so that my diet is now 18%-20% fat rather than less than 10%. It's made a big difference. I feel satisfied with food. I also found that when I plugged the numbers of a sample menu into Fitday, I was not only eating less calories than with the no fat added vegan diet but also having more vitamins and minerals.

 

As I said, I don't add a lot of fat. For example, I add a teaspoon of almond butter to my morning oatmeal, a teaspoon of olive oil for a salad, that kind of thing. So these are small amounts but they make a big difference.

 

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