What do you think about people who forced they animals to be vegan? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 02-10-2014, 06:02 AM
 
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There are a lot of vegan people that i know that forced even their animals to be vegan.

 

I think that is stupid to feed cats and dogs (that are naturally carnivorous) with vegan food. They are predators and they need meat.

But it's also true that cats and dogs food are waste products of the meat industries and buying them we support this industries. 

 

What do you think about that? How do you feed your animals?

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#2 Old 02-10-2014, 06:21 AM
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There are a lot of vegan people that i know that forced even their animals to be vegan.

 

I think that is stupid to feed cats and dogs (that are naturally carnivorous) with vegan food. They are predators and they need meat.

But it's also true that cats and dogs food are waste products of the meat industries and buying them we support this industries. 

 

What do you think about that? How do you feed your animals?

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand your argument. House cats and dogs can not generally be considered predators since a lot of time they don't hunt and to criticize feeding pets non-meat on the basis that it's not natural is inherently hypocritical since them being our pets is also not not natural.

 

I think better questions would be:

a) Is it ethical to force animals thought a life of suffering for the sake of a smaller number of animals?

After all, while I love cats, I don't see reason why pigs would be less worthy of happiness then them.

b) Is it possible for dogs and cats to thrive on a vegan diet? 

I don't see how you can come logically from the fact they their body is adapted to a meat eating to the conclusion that it's impossible to design perfectly suitable food for them that happens to not contain any animal products.

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#3 Old 02-10-2014, 06:51 AM
 
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It's also true that commercial pet food is some of the most disgusting crap out there, with diseased animal parts and a lot a lot of chemicals. You're not exactly doing your pets any favours by feeding them commercial pet food. It's not the kind of 'meat' (if you can even call it that) that is optimal for their bodies anyway.

 

But yes, if you want to feed carnivorous pets a vegan diet, you need to follow up with a lot of health checkups to make sure that it works. It can work, but it's your responsibility to be extra careful.

 

I rather just not own carnivorous pets. I would really like to have a pet pig or cow, to be honest. I get to experience the love of an animal, have no guilt feeding my pet, and get to change minds at the same time ^_^


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#4 Old 02-10-2014, 08:25 AM
 
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I wrote you an answer but than i delate it by mistake...

 

I'm sorry i can't well explain what i mean to say, but i can't speak english well, so it's very diffcult for me.

 

What i mean to say is that cats and dogs are carnivorous, so their bodies (stomach, intestine and so on) are made for eating meat. The metter is not if it's natural or not, i think (but i'm not an expert, maybe i'm wrong) that since they are carnivorous they shouldn't have a vegan diet.

 

Oblivious it's not natural to own an animal, but i don't think can be wrong if we save a cat or a dog, adopting him/her form a dog/cat puond, and live with them. But how can we feed them?

 

I mean, unfortunately pets are for sale in our world, and i think this is wrong, because animals aren't humans properties. And this system is the cause of a lot of suffering and animals abandoned. So, even if it's not natural, it's ethically correct to save one of them and try to give him/her a happier life. But if i do so i have to procure them food and how? i don't want to be resposible of the death of other animals, because, as you said the life of a pig is as important as the one of my pet. But it's right to made them eat something they are not supposed to eat?

 

When we go vegan we make a conscious choiche and our bodies can survive eating only vegetal products, but it's not the same for our pets...

I'm honestly confused, what would you do? what do you think about that?

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#5 Old 02-10-2014, 08:33 AM
 
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I don't think this is an argument you can make in theory alone. You have to factor in the evidence. And the evidence says that it is possible for cats and dogs to be very healthy on a vegan diet. (http://www.vegancats.com/can.php)

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#6 Old 02-10-2014, 08:54 AM
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What i mean to say is that cats and dogs are carnivorous, so their bodies (stomach, intestine and so on) are made for eating meat. The metter is not if it's natural or not, i think (but i'm not an expert, maybe i'm wrong) that since they are carnivorous they shouldn't have a vegan diet.

Dogs and cats weren't made: they evolved, just like humans. If what you mean is that are adapted to eat meat, then sure I agree with you but them being adapted to eat meat doesn't mean that we couldn't design food for them that doesn't contain any meat whatsoever without negatively impacting their health.

 

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But it's right to made them eat something they are not supposed to eat?

Whether they are supposed to eat things that aren't meat is what we are discussing about. Arguing that they should eat meat because that's what they are supposed to eat is circular reasoning.

 

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When we go vegan we make a conscious choiche and our bodies can survive eating only vegetal products, but it's not the same for our pets...

Pets don't make a conscious choice to eat meat either. They just eat whatever they feel like eating. Surely it must be possible to make pet food that doesn't contain animal products but that still is palatable to them. Other than that, whether what we decide to feed them is vegan or animal based, we are gonna be forcing it on them either way.

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#7 Old 02-10-2014, 09:39 AM
 
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My cat Marvin, a handsome rescue, loves leafy greens. He is a houseplant hunter and when I eat a salad he waits for me to 'accidentally' drop some lettuce for him. He doesn't really do that with my omni partner's meat. He is showing that cats can like vegetables too. smiley.gif
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#8 Old 02-10-2014, 09:44 AM
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No comment on whether or not it's a healthy thing to eat for them, but there are definitely cats who like to eat veggies. Broccolis are apparently pretty popular.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQi3q-Nf9wA

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#9 Old 02-10-2014, 09:52 AM
 
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It doesn't make any sense to torture and kill many intelligent animals to gratify the palate of another animal- particularly when, if you change the latter animal's food, he or she will be healthier (particularly the case for older dogs), and once the palate adapts, will not notice the difference in the day to day.

 

You certainly can't make a moral argument to justify the act.

 

As others have pointed out, it doesn't matter what's "natural"- computers aren't "natural", so if you cared about doing things that were "natural" as a matter of ethics, you wouldn't be here to ask the question :)

 

Also, assuming "natural = right", in the context of modern knowledge of nature, is possibly one of the most evil philosophies ever imagined by mankind.

 

Evolution is a factual truth- but that does NOT make its processes or conclusions moral duty by any means.  The strong thriving and the weak suffering is not a moral prerogative, but an amoral default that should be overcome by moral duty.

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#10 Old 02-10-2014, 10:31 AM
 
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I agree with you, i was just confused about this matter and i don't know how to express my thoughts. I wasn't try to justify the kill of other animals to feed our pets and i agree with you when you say that "natural" can't be a moral guideline.

 

I just don't know if it's possible to feed pets that are supposed to be carnivorous with vegetal. I read once that their digestive system is made to digest meat as the main source of nourishment but i can't tell if it's truht or not.

 

I will research better and if it's possible i will likely change the way i feed my pets.

 

It's just a very controversial theme here in Italy and i want to read more opinions.

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#11 Old 02-10-2014, 10:58 AM
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@Reila It's gonna be a controversial theme everywhere, not just in Italy, for the same reasons that have already been cited. While appeals to nature are definitely fallacious, they still sound very compelling to people everywhere in the world. Expect to see pictures of dog and cat teeth whenever the topic is discussed.

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#12 Old 02-10-2014, 11:45 AM
 
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Ahahaha ok!

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#13 Old 02-10-2014, 12:04 PM
 
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Generally speaking:  It's easy for small dogs (male and female) and female cats to be vegan.  There are specially formulated foods you can buy on the internet.

 

For cats, buy the food online.

 

For dogs, you can buy specially formulated food, OR you can generally make their food.  Dogs are omnivores, and have been eating human food since 'human food' was a thing.  Dogs are super easy.

 

You can find recipes for vegan dog food online, and buy supplements for things that are harder to give them through food.

 

 

Large breed dogs may need extra amino acid supplements, particularly when they are growing.  This is pretty easy- only necessary if you're getting a really big dog breed though, and mostly while they are puppies and growing really fast.

 

Male cats can have urinary problems, so sometimes need to be supplemented with some extra acidifying amino acids to prevent blockage.  For this, you need to monitor the cat's urine pH.  You can DIY pH monitoring and home, and buy a kit online.  It doesn't need to be done that often.  Also, wet your cat's dry food before feeding- that can help get them more hydrated, which can make a big difference.

 

Male cats may be completely fine on a formulated vegan cat food you can buy online- but there's just a chance of urinary blockage from stones.

 

Recommend adopting female cats only, because they're much easier.

Male or female dogs are both easy.

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#14 Old 02-10-2014, 12:16 PM
 
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I <3 my cat boys. They are the sweetest creatures! I have found that female cats tend to be more moody, but all of our pets were rescues that chose us, so...
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#15 Old 02-10-2014, 12:32 PM
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My mother's dog actually can't digest meat, it makes her sick and she throws up. So the vet suggested a vegetarian dog food, she now eats Nature's Recipe Soybean Protein mix. I think it's hilarious that after all the years of my mother harassing me about "getting enough protein" and "you need meat" etc, she now has a veg*n dog lol. Sweet justice.

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#16 Old 02-10-2014, 12:39 PM
 
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Dogs are omnivores and can thrive on a vegan diet. Many people in portland use v-dog.

 

Cats are obligate carnivores and many cats do not thrive on a vegan diet.

 

Not only is the meat in cat food of questionable provenance but the animals killed for this meat come from the very worse facilities (e.g. unregulated slaughterhouses that would make Temple Grandin run out screaming). I once tried to feed our rescue cats a mostly vegetarian diet but the male experienced health problems (weight loss). We now feed them an expensive kibble in which the animal protein is sourced entirely from USDA-certified slaughterhouses. I have a vegan friend who buys a cow share from a bonafide happy meat ranch and grinds this meat to supplement her vegetarian feed. Given that less than one death can feed her cats for most of a year this is far more ethical than my approach.

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#17 Old 02-10-2014, 12:47 PM
 
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Cats are obligate carnivores and many cats do not thrive on a vegan diet.

 

I once tried to feed our rescue cats a vegetarian diet but the male experienced health problems....

 

Usually it's just the male cats that have any problems.  But not even all male cats.

 

You might save a lot of animals over their lifetimes if you fed the females vegetarian, and just continued the meat products for the male.

I know it's tricky to work with communal bowls, or get them all to eat just the food they're supposed to eat, but still.

 

Also:  What about freegan meat?  Deli slices or whatever from dumpster diving.  Cats can handle old meat that humans can not, or would be dangerous for humans.

The local butcher at your grocery store might have stuff that would otherwise be thrown out on occasion.

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#18 Old 02-10-2014, 12:57 PM
 
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Usually it's just the male cats that have any problems.  But not even all male cats.

 

You might save a lot of animals over their lifetimes if you fed the females vegetarian, and just continued the meat products for the male.

I know it's tricky to work with communal bowls, or get them all to eat just the food they're supposed to eat, but still.

 

Also:  What about freegan meat?  Deli slices or whatever from dumpster diving.  Cats can handle old meat that humans can not, or would be dangerous for humans.

The local butcher at your grocery store might have stuff that would otherwise be thrown out on occasion.

 

Good ideas but at this point I'm unwilling to further stress out our quite senior cat cohabitants.

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#19 Old 02-11-2014, 09:30 AM
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There are a lot of vegan people that i know that forced even their animals to be vegan.



 



I think that is stupid to feed cats and dogs (that are naturally carnivorous) with vegan food. They are predators and they need meat.



But it's also true that cats and dogs food are waste products of the meat industries and buying them we support this industries. 



 



What do you think about that? How do you feed your animals?

 

I feed our rescue dog V-dog. Ideally, I would like to make all his vegan meals from scratch, but that is not currently in the cards.

I could never adopt one animal only to contribute to the death of many more animals just to feed it. Morally, I cannot.
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#20 Old 02-11-2014, 12:07 PM
 
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I plan on doing research online in the hopes of feeding my small senior dog and two female cats vegetarian or vegan food...glad to hear some are having success!
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#21 Old 02-11-2014, 12:21 PM
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#22 Old 02-11-2014, 12:50 PM
 
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Quote:
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There are a lot of vegan people that i know that forced even their animals to be vegan.

 

 

 

I think that is stupid to feed cats and dogs (that are naturally carnivorous) with vegan food. They are predators and they need meat.

 

But it's also true that cats and dogs food are waste products of the meat industries and buying them we support this industries. 

 

 

 

What do you think about that? How do you feed your animals?

 

I feed our rescue dog V-dog. Ideally, I would like to make all his vegan meals from scratch, but that is not currently in the cards.

I could never adopt one animal only to contribute to the death of many more animals just to feed it. Morally, I cannot.

Yes, you all convinced me. Do you have any site/books or other where i can find some information?

I still live with my parents so i can't decide our pet's meal, but i can try to convence them, only need more information.

Thanks!!

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#23 Old 02-11-2014, 02:11 PM
 
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You can find a lot of vegan dog food recipes with an internet search "vegan dog food recipe"

 

Here's on on PETA which looks good:

 

http://www.peta.org/living/companion-animals/say-kibble-vegan-dog-food-recipe/

 

Notice the vitamin powder and enzymes.

 

There are lots of recipes out there, and you can make your own.  Mixes of whole grains and different kinds of beans.

 

Just avoid ingredients that are harmful to dogs (like onions, chocolate, etc.)  Always search a potential new ingredient on the net before you give it to them.

 

Aside from a few ingredients that hurt them (or too much salt), dogs can eat pretty much anything, and thrive on it (lots of stray dogs eat junk food from garbage and still do surprisingly well, apart from the parasites they're plagued with).

 

Except really big breeds, when they're puppies (they'll need an extra non-essential amino acid supplement, like Creatine, for proper heart development).

Older dogs definitely benefit from digestive enzymes.

 

 

This is the best resource for vegan cats:

 

http://www.vegancats.com/

 

Here are some of their products:

 

http://store.nexternal.com/vegancats/vegan-cat-food-c1.aspx

 

Ami is very popular, and I've heard it is the best.

 

You CAN make your own vegan cat food, but it's not as easy as making vegan dog food (which is super easy).  I wouldn't recommend trying to make vegan cat food unless you have a lot of experience in nutritional science, and understand cat nutritional needs and how the ingredients work together very well.

 

 

EDIT:  Here's PETA's page on the subject, which has a lot more info:

http://www.peta.org/issues/companion-animal-issues/companion-animals-factsheets/meatless-meals-dogs-cats/

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#24 Old 02-11-2014, 02:49 PM
 
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I could never adopt one animal only to contribute to the death of many more animals just to feed it. Morally, I cannot.

 

I wrestle with this but I'm simply too attached to our cat companions to exposed them to the risks associated with a vegan diet. And while I'm not excusing my own contribution to animal suffering (it sucks), I think it's important to note that vegan food is also associated with death. If we lived in a more vegan society I'm pretty sure someone would have figured out how to create a vegan or more vegan cat food. For example, I've always hoped that someone will develop a cat food that uses bivalves and/or primitive insects (e.g. worms) as a source of protein. This would be a veganish solution to my obligate carnivore problem.

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#25 Old 02-11-2014, 05:32 PM
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CATS CAN'T BE VEGAN. I don't care how many vegan sites you find that say they can. You are risking your cat's health.

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#26 Old 02-11-2014, 06:40 PM
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CATS CAN'T BE VEGAN. I don't care how many vegan sites you find that say they can. You are risking your cat's health.

Please support this claim. I see a lot of evidence to the contrary. And if you feed your cat nonvegan, you are not risking farm animal health- you are taking it away entirely.
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#27 Old 02-11-2014, 07:11 PM
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I wrestle with this but I'm simply too attached to our cat companions to exposed them to the risks associated with a vegan diet. And while I'm not excusing my own contribution to animal suffering (it sucks), I think it's important to note that vegan food is also associated with death. If we lived in a more vegan society I'm pretty sure someone would have figured out how to create a vegan or more vegan cat food. For example, I've always hoped that someone will develop a cat food that uses bivalves and/or primitive insects (e.g. worms) as a source of protein. This would be a veganish solution to my obligate carnivore problem.

It's my understanding that cat food doesn't really contribute much of anything to meat production, but sources from discards.

Are bivalves even good for cats? 

Cats are a problem humans have made, and aren't dealing with well at all. I now have ten that were all rescued and unsuccessful at finding other (or better) homes.

I'm not against formulating vegetarian foods for animals that have not real natural habitat and are as removed from the wild as they are, but I'm more concerned with them breeding and creating feral colonies and instead getting fixed and homed.. Currently the state of vegan cats seems to fall into the catagory of "vegan elite".

 

I've attempted to use natural litters and after falling short of finances went back to scoopable clay. They're in cat litter heaven now, and environmental hazards!


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#28 Old 02-11-2014, 07:29 PM
 
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And while I'm not excusing my own contribution to animal suffering (it sucks), I think it's important to note that vegan food is also associated with death. 

 

I hate to say it, but that sounds like a rationalization.  It's the same thing carnists say to excuse meat eating.

 

Quote:
If we lived in a more vegan society I'm pretty sure someone would have figured out how to create a vegan or more vegan cat food. For example, I've always hoped that someone will develop a cat food that uses bivalves and/or primitive insects (e.g. worms) as a source of protein. This would be a veganish solution to my obligate carnivore problem.

 

But, there are vegan cat foods.  Which are perfectly fine for most cats- particularly female cats.

 

Male cats just need a little extra TLC in terms of urinary problems (more acidifying amino acids).  It's certainly a little inconvenient... but again, isn't inconvenience another argument omnivores make?

 

 

But you know, if you want, it's really easy to cultivate insects (larvae, if that's what you're going for) on your own.

 

You just need a few plastic tubs with good lids and some starter stock.  They feed on mostly grain and vegetable rubbish (the stuff you'd have put in the compost instead).  Pretty efficient and quickly replicating buggers.

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#29 Old 02-11-2014, 07:49 PM
 
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Please support this claim. I see a lot of evidence to the contrary. And if you feed your cat nonvegan, you are not risking farm animal health- you are taking it away entirely.

 

Wolfie can't support the claim, because the claim is false.  Male cats sometimes have urinary problems due to lower acidity, which needs to be monitored (but only in some cats).

 

People who are vegan for health reasons instead of moral ones can't understand why anybody would feed cats vegan, and will rail against it as 'unnatural' every chance they get.

But they can live a long and healthy life on a well formulated vegan diet.  Numerous vegan cats prove this.

 

And even if it wasn't AS good for them as a meat diet, it would still be the right thing to give them to save other animals from suffering- just as it would be right for us to eat vegan even if it wasn't healthier than meat (it's just lucky that it happens to be).

 

Like those stupid vampire movies where the vampire won't drink human blood even though abstaining from blood makes him weaker than the other vampires- it's just the right thing to do.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
 

It's my understanding that cat food doesn't really contribute much of anything to meat production, but sources from discards.

 

The idea of 'discards' is not very compatible with reality of the animal agriculture industry.

 

They sell everything, profit from everything, and those profits further animal suffering (including the manure used in organic farms).  There's nothing just going into these products as freegan and free from causative ties to animal suffering.

 

But as to the by-products; the cheapest, crappiest no-name dry foods might have bits and pieces in them considered unfit for human consumption (again, that doesn't mean they aren't contributing to animal suffering by subsidizing the meat industry), and some might even contain euthanized ground up cats and dogs from shelters (this isn't as bad), or road kill, but the more removed from its ties to animal suffering, the more disgusting and questionable the pet food becomes, and you have to start asking yourself if that's what you want to be feeding your pet.

 

Higher grade pet food contains meat just as any carnist's dinner does, with its accompanying dead and suffering animals producing it.

 

That is, except for vegan pet food- which can be both high quality AND cruelty free.

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#30 Old 02-11-2014, 08:17 PM
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Theoretically, if money wasn't an issue, farmed oysters would work too. Oysters don't have a brain so they can not be considered sentient beings.

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