meat cravings - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 Old 02-10-2014, 02:08 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandiculationco View Post

Junk food is a relative term, though.  Most mock meats aren't that junky.  Even the worst vegan veggie burgers I've seen aren't very unhealthy at all.
I don't find this to be the case at all, all the mock meats I'm aware of are junk foods and vegan veggie burgers are often appalling health wise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandiculationco View Post

Salt intake raises blood pressure slightly above one's baseline.  If one has high blood pressure, this is a problem.  If one has a healthy blood pressure, it's harmless.
Salt intake raises blood pressure more than "slightly", in populations that consume low sodium diets of whole foods the average blood pressures are 95/65 for women and 105/70 for men. Considerably lower than in the United States. But some people are more sensitive than others. But, contrary to what you're claiming, the negative impact of high salt intake exceeds further than raising one's blood pressure:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joel-fuhrman-md/high-salt-diet-_b_821323.html

But Salt is just one issue and you're ignoring the underlying issue, namely, that the ingredients in junk foods have negative consequences. Its not just about empty calories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandiculationco View Post

Saturated fats in moderation are metabolized by the liver just fine, excess saturated fats are definitely bad- but vegan diets are relatively low in saturated fat- even most vegan junk food.
Huh? The negative impacts of saturated fat have nothing to do with the bodies ability to metabolize the fat. Vegan diets are only low in saturated fat if they are based on whole foods but many vegan junk foods are high in saturated fat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectxDefect View Post

You can have a seitan/tofu/tvp burger with tofu mayo with healthy oils on an whole grain bun and be healthy. It's not junk.. it's just "meatier" and higher in (good) fat. It's a better replica of the comfort food that is so often missed.
"Comfort foods" are junk foods, trying to replicate them with vegan foods results in a junk food.....in some cases a junk food that is worse than the original.

But I do think it would be good for someone with "meat cravings" to try some vegan junk food to better understand their cravings.
logic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#32 Old 02-10-2014, 02:52 AM
 
pandiculationco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post


I don't find this to be the case at all, all the mock meats I'm aware of are junk foods and vegan veggie burgers are often appalling health wise.

 

Maybe we're seeing different ones.  Can you give me an example of a bad one?

 

Quote:
But, contrary to what you're claiming, the negative impact of high salt intake exceeds further than raising one's blood pressure:

 

Not if you drink enough water and get enough other minerals.

 

The most important point is that sodium and potassium have to be balanced, because they're direct competitors; beyond that, other water soluble minerals (and vitamins) are at risk during your high salt meal because they have to be flushed out with water if you're eating too much salt at once, but not during other meals.

 

If you eat more salt, you have to drink more water with it.  Not doing so causes all sort of problems.  Luckily, salty food tends to make people thirsty, so it seems easy to remember to do.  One of the biggest issues with the SAD is that people are drinking colas and such instead of water- I think those are more problematic than the food itself.

 

I'd be interested in seeing what kinds of controls the studies have which are focusing on things other than blood pressure.

I know, for example, that with regards to risk of stomach cancer from H. Pylori, it is not the total amount of salt, but only the osmotic concentration of sodium that matters.  I suspect this is the same with other effects upon the body- and see no reason why it wouldn't be.

 

I'm always telling people to stop eating salty soups, because they're too salty and they prevent us from drinking water, but instead eat dry food (which tastes saltier with less salt) along with water- this reduces the overall osmotic concentration of sodium in the body and negates major deleterious effects (except mineral loss, particularly potassium- which I mentioned as an issue; though it's also easily solved by eating more nutrient rich foods).

 

Most vegan junk foods are just that- dry salty foods (which I assume is your main complaint about mock meats).  As long as you drink enough water with them, and eat enough nutrient dense foods otherwise, it's hard to imagine any significant health risk.

pandiculationco is offline  
#33 Old 02-10-2014, 11:52 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamizushi View Post
 

Chips are so temping and evil. Empty fattened carbs are easy to fall to. It's so hard to resist pesto pasta too.


Fried carbs are probably not a good idea...however, it should be noted that things fried in olive oil (and presumably other monounsatured-rich oils) do not appear to be associated with increased risk (at least according to several large epidemiological studies).

 

I don't see any reason why you would want to resist pesto pasta (especially in moderation). Al dente pasta has a very low glycemic index and substantial amounts of soluble fiber and long chain carbohydrates. Pesto is positively packed with oils that are proposed to be beneficial and very high amounts of phenolic/sterol compounds that are candidates for the health benefits associated with a mediterranean diet. Logic likes to point to a low fat and whole food diet as being a good choice but other evidence also suggests that a plant-based mediterranean diet is associated with *decreased* risk of disease. And I am aware of no study that provides definitive data on which choice is *better* (for a healthy cohort).  (I would not be surprised if some combination of the two approaches turns out to be more beneficial than either alone.)

unethicalvegan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#34 Old 02-10-2014, 11:59 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectxDefect View Post


Those are yummy and make you feel fantastic... but are not substitues..they are their own thing. if craving a pure fat flesh burger, I would suggest a seitan/tvp/Gardein burger with libriral amounts of (healthy) fat. Oil for the burger and vegan cheese & tofu mayo or avacado & hummus if you want. You don't have to be a raw foodist or health fanatic to be a 'good' vegan.. you just have to be your own compassionate self.

 

i was being sarcastic. imo, the belief that organic, natural, whole and/or unprocessed foods are a healthier choice is based more on wishful thinking and pseudoscience than actual evidence.

unethicalvegan is offline  
#35 Old 02-10-2014, 12:15 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post


I don't find this to be the case at all, all the mock meats I'm aware of are junk foods and vegan veggie burgers are often appalling health wise.
Salt intake raises blood pressure more than "slightly", in populations that consume low sodium diets of whole foods the average blood pressures are 95/65 for women and 105/70 for men. Considerably lower than in the United States. But some people are more sensitive than others. But, contrary to what you're claiming, the negative impact of high salt intake exceeds further than raising one's blood pressure:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joel-fuhrman-md/high-salt-diet-_b_821323.html

But Salt is just one issue and you're ignoring the underlying issue, namely, that the ingredients in junk foods have negative consequences. Its not just about empty calories.
Huh? The negative impacts of saturated fat have nothing to do with the bodies ability to metabolize the fat. Vegan diets are only low in saturated fat if they are based on whole foods but many vegan junk foods are high in saturated fat.
"Comfort foods" are junk foods, trying to replicate them with vegan foods results in a junk food.....in some cases a junk food that is worse than the original.

But I do think it would be good for someone with "meat cravings" to try some vegan junk food to better understand their cravings.

 

Joel Fuhrman profits from his "diet plan" and is, IMO, not a credible source for unbiased evidence-based nutrition. That being said I agree with your and Dr. Fuhrman's comments on salt...and, IMO, this represents one of the best arguments for moderation of prepared food consumption (both from groceries and restaurants).

 

Nevertheless, when it comes to mock meats I believe you are making the mistake of assuming that vegans eat so-called junk food at the same rate as the SAD cohort. There is little to no data suggesting that the more moderate amounts of quote unquote junk food consumed by vegans has deleterious consequences. In fact, studies of saturated fat and salt consumption in the general population suggest that reduced consumption causes associated risk to disappear or diminish. I also would love to have you list vegan junk foods that are high in saturated fats. For example, of late, I have been consuming a significant amount of beyond meat chicken strips and while this food is highly processed I believe it is a relatively good protein choice (bought with the $1.00 pdf coupon and on sale for $3.99). Many of the highly processed gardein and field roast foods are also reasonable protein choices that are low in saturated fat.

unethicalvegan is offline  
#36 Old 02-10-2014, 02:36 PM
Veggie Regular
 
kamizushi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Montreal
Posts: 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post
 

 

i was being sarcastic. imo, the belief that organic, natural, whole and/or unprocessed foods are a healthier choice is based more on wishful thinking and pseudoscience than actual evidence.

Whole grains in general do have a good amount of scientific literature baking them up when compared to their typical refined counterparts. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be a way to process grains that could make them healthier but it does have some real life applications.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10479204
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9589426

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17490973

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22649266

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12145012

kamizushi is offline  
#37 Old 02-10-2014, 03:33 PM
Veggie Regular
 
kamizushi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Montreal
Posts: 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post
 


Fried carbs are probably not a good idea...however, it should be noted that things fried in olive oil (and presumably other monounsatured-rich oils) do not appear to be associated with increased risk (at least according to several large epidemiological studies).

 

I don't see any reason why you would want to resist pesto pasta (especially in moderation). Al dente pasta has a very low glycemic index and substantial amounts of soluble fiber and long chain carbohydrates. Pesto is positively packed with oils that are proposed to be beneficial and very high amounts of phenolic/sterol compounds that are candidates for the health benefits associated with a mediterranean diet. Logic likes to point to a low fat and whole foods diet as being a good choice but actual evidence suggests that a plant-based/veg*n mediterranean diet is also associated with improved health and *decreased* risk of many diseases. And I am aware of no study that provides definitive data on which choice is *better* for a healthy cohort.  (I would not be surprised if some combination of the two approaches turns out to be more beneficial than either alone.)

Pesto pasta and chips are not very filling and are energy packed. That's my main issue with them. I absolutely love pesto pasta but it's very hard for me to eat it in moderation and I often find myself going throw the whole cooking pot. And here you go, 1200 calories of carbs and oils in one meal.

 

I tell you, I'm an a 6'1 tall 205lb ogre with a bottomless stomach. When I was 225lb and slowly moving toward obesity and the lower caloric density of plant food is what saving me. It'd call it karma if I believed in such a thing :), but I still gotta be careful not to bounce back.

kamizushi is offline  
#38 Old 02-10-2014, 03:49 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamizushi View Post
That doesn't mean that there couldn't be a way to process grains that could make them healthier but it does have some real life applications.

...such as, grinding them into flour, subjecting them to partial fermentation, boiling them, baking them, and/or toasting them?

 

;) 

 

i guess what i'm trying to communicate is that, for a vegan who is already eating a fair amount of high fiber plant-based food, i doubt the choice between a quinoa-chia-adzuki-amaranth-kale super food veggie burger or a gardein beefless patty makes a heck of a lot of difference. one of the most common fallacies made is to assume that because X amount of a food is associated with decreased risk/improved health, eating twice as much is bound to be better.

unethicalvegan is offline  
#39 Old 02-10-2014, 03:57 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamizushi View Post
 

Pesto pasta and chips are not very filling and are energy packed. That's my main issue with them. I absolutely love pesto pasta but it's very hard for me to eat it in moderation and I often find myself going throw the whole cooking pot. And here you go, 1200 calories of carbs and oils in one meal.

 

I tell you, I'm an a 6'1 tall 205lb ogre with a bottomless stomach. When I was 225lb and slowly moving toward obesity and the lower caloric density of plant food is what saving me. It'd call it karma if I believed in such a thing :), but I still gotta be careful not to bounce back.

 

i eat 3000+ calories a day so maybe i'm not the person you should be listening too when it comes to pasta cravings.

unethicalvegan is offline  
#40 Old 02-10-2014, 04:12 PM
Veggie Regular
 
beanspud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: FL
Posts: 1,106
i-dont-always-make-too-much-spaghetti.jpg
Seemed relevant.
natty6, kamizushi and 60225 like this.
beanspud is offline  
#41 Old 02-10-2014, 04:19 PM
Veggie Regular
 
kamizushi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Montreal
Posts: 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post
 

 

i eat 3000+ calories a day so maybe i'm not the person you should be listening too when it comes to pasta cravings.

Oh darn. You have a pretty good appetite too, I see. I hope you have a better exercise regimen then me to make up for it. :p

kamizushi is offline  
#42 Old 02-10-2014, 05:22 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamizushi View Post
 

Oh darn. You have a pretty good appetite too, I see. I hope you have a better exercise regimen then me to make up for it. :p

 

i burn about a thousand calories a day just biking from point A to B.

kamizushi likes this.
unethicalvegan is offline  
#43 Old 02-10-2014, 07:46 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post

Joel Fuhrman profits from his "diet plan" and is, IMO, not a credible source for unbiased evidence-based nutrition. That being said I agree with your and Dr. Fuhrman's comments on salt...and, IMO, this represents one of the best arguments for moderation of prepared food consumption (both from groceries and restaurants).
I didn't cite the article because it was from Fuhrman, instead because it was accessible and cited relevant research.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post

Nevertheless, when it comes to mock meats I believe you are making the mistake of assuming that vegans eat so-called junk food at the same rate as the SAD cohort. There is little to no data suggesting that the more moderate amounts of quote unquote junk food consumed by vegans has deleterious consequences. In fact, studies of saturated fat and salt consumption in the general population suggest that reduced consumption causes associated risk to disappear or diminish.
I'm not making an assumption, while there isn't any official dietary surveys for vegans there are for vegetarians and their diet is only slightly better than the non-vegetarians. I have no reason to believe that vegans, in virtue of being vegan, would consume less junk than vegetarians and non-vegans....if anything I wonder if vegans are starting to consume more junk foods. You on the other hand seem to be assuming that vegans eat noticeably better than the average person, what is the basis for that? And there are no studies demonstrating anything about "moderate amounts" because that phrase has little meaning, it seems to be only employed when someone wants to justify some practice that is known to have negative consequences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post

I also would love to have you list vegan junk foods that are high in saturated fats. For example, of late, I have been consuming a significant amount of beyond meat chicken strips and while this food is highly processed I believe it is a relatively good protein choice (bought with the $1.00 pdf coupon and on sale for $3.99). Many of the highly processed gardein and field roast foods are also reasonable protein choices that are low in saturated fat.
The list would be rather long, after all, palm oil has become a common ingredient in junk foods and even more so in vegan junk foods. Vegan cupcakes, vegan pastries, vegan cookies, vegan fatty sauces etc...are usually going to be very high in saturated fat. The fake meats tend to be low to moderate in saturated fat because the manufactures typically use vegetable oils but some are high in saturated fat (e.g., field's classic meatloaf).

Beyond meat chicken strips, field roasts, etc are about as good of a source of protein as cookies are of carbohydrates and fat. Beans, lentils, tofu, soy milk, nuts, seeds, whole grains, etc are good sources of protein.....not high protein junk foods.
logic is offline  
#44 Old 02-10-2014, 08:37 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post

Logic likes to point to a low fat and whole food diet as being a good choice but other evidence also suggests that a plant-based mediterranean diet is associated with *decreased* risk of disease. And I am aware of no study that provides definitive data on which choice is *better* (for a healthy cohort).  (I would not be surprised if some combination of the two approaches turns out to be more beneficial than either alone.)
Logic likes to point to a whole foods plant-based eating pattern that will, in virtue of being based on whole plant foods, end up being low to moderate in fat.

Mediterranean diets are associated with reduced disease risk in relation to the standard American diet (or some other western eating patterns) but that doesn't tell you how it relates to other eating patterns. The Mediterranean diet includes animal foods and as such advocating the Mediterranean diet is advocating for a non-veg*n diet. Not to mention that the Mediterranean diet consists of numerous factors....not just the replacement of olive oils for butter. Eating patterns need to be taken as a whole, you can't pick and choose one element you like from them. The idea that the comparative benefits of the Mediterranean diet are preserved when you remove a significant part (e.g., the animal foods) of the diet would need to be demonstrated. If you know of any such studies I'd love to see them.

I wouldn't touch your typical pesto pasta, refined carbohydrates covered in grease and it doesn't even taste good to me. I do like spaghetti though, whole wheat noodles with a hearty tomato and legume based sauce.
logic is offline  
#45 Old 02-11-2014, 10:33 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post


You on the other hand seem to be assuming that vegans eat noticeably better than the average person, what is the basis for that?

 

The evidence here is pretty definitive. I see I'm going to have to cite peer-reviewed analyses of  the EPIC and ADH2 studies...again.

 

Quote:

Beyond meat chicken strips, field roasts, etc are about as good of a source of protein as cookies are of carbohydrates and fat. Beans, lentils, tofu, soy milk, nuts, seeds, whole grains, etc are good sources of protein.....not high protein junk foods.

Beyond meat

120 calories

5% fat -- mono and polyunsaturated.

6 g carb -- mostly from legumes.

20 g protein.

2 g dietary fiber

RDA

Calcium: 6%.

Iron: 20%.

Vitamin C: 2%.

 

Tofu

90 calories

50% fat -- including 9% saturated fat

2 g carb

20 g protein

1 g fiber

Calcium: 20% (added during processing)

Iron: 11%

 

 

just saying...

unethicalvegan is offline  
#46 Old 02-11-2014, 10:48 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post


Mediterranean diets are associated with reduced disease risk in relation to the standard American diet (or some other western eating patterns) but that doesn't tell you how it relates to other eating patterns.

 

Agreed...but the same argument can be made for studies of vegetarian or vegan diets. I'd love to see large scale feeding studies that compare diets in a less biased manner but these studies do not exist.

 

Quote:
The Mediterranean diet includes animal foods 

It can include animal products. Dean Ornish's diet also can include animal products. I believe Esselstyn also originally allowed non-fat dairy in his very small study.

unethicalvegan is offline  
#47 Old 02-11-2014, 07:01 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post

Beyond meat
120 calories
5% fat -- mono and polyunsaturated.
6 g carb -- mostly from legumes.
20 g protein.
2 g dietary fiber
RDA
Calcium: 6%.
Iron: 20%.
Vitamin C: 2%.

Tofu
90 calories
50% fat -- including 9% saturated fat
2 g carb
20 g protein
1 g fiber
Calcium: 20% (added during processing)
Iron: 11%


just saying...
I don't know, what you seem to be saying is that you like incomplete and misleading comparisons. Beyond meat is a re-engineered food created from highly processed components that are largely stripped of their micro-nutrients (its made from isolated soy and pea protein, oils, fiber supplements and flavor extracts) Tofu, being made form whole foods, is packed with numerous vitamins, minerals and phytochemicals.......beyond meat is missing most of the nutrients contained in the whole foods it was engineered from.

Honestly, I'm more comfortable eating cookies than things like beyond meat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post

It can include animal products. Dean Ornish's diet also can include animal products. I believe Esselstyn also originally allowed non-fat dairy in his very small study.
The Mediterranean diet is not a list of what one "can eat", instead a particular eating pattern and that pattern includes the consumption of fish, poultry and small amounts of dairy and red meat. These animal products are just as much part of the Mediterranean diet as olive oil and if you remove them you no longer have the Mediterranean diet.....you have a different diet that we don't have much information on.

In any case, the research on olive oil demonstrates that it reduces cardiovascular disease risk when replacing fats high in saturated fat. So using it instead of earth balance is definitely a good idea. But the current research does not support the idea that olive oil is, in general, healthy and that including it in a diet that is low in saturated fat will result in any improvements.
logic is offline  
#48 Old 02-12-2014, 04:10 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post



In any case, the research on olive oil demonstrates that it reduces cardiovascular disease risk when replacing fats high in saturated fat. in saturated fat will result in any improvements.

 

This is not correct.  In fact, this type of unsupported speculation came not from peer-reviewed studies but from biased sources  (e.g. Ornish and Esselstyn) who were upset by data suggesting that some fats might actually reduce risk of CVD and metabolic syndromes.

 

 

Quote:
The Mediterranean diet is not a list of what one "can eat", 

Also incorrect. In general, these studies used the same types of multivariate regression analyses used for EPIC and ADH2. And in this type of analysis it's possible to segregate the outcome by meat and dairy consumption. In fact, the negative association between meat consumption is one of the more striking results from these epidemiological studies. Moreover, analysis and re-analysis of these data sets has largely confirmed that most of the lowering of risk was associated with plant-based foods and plant-based fats.

 

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa025039#t=article (see Table 2)

http://www.bmj.com/content/330/7498/991#T5 (Table 4)

unethicalvegan is offline  
#49 Old 02-12-2014, 04:24 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post


I don't know, what you seem to be saying is that you like incomplete and misleading comparisons. Beyond meat is a re-engineered food created from highly processed components that are largely stripped of their micro-nutrients (its made from isolated soy and pea protein, oils, fiber supplements and flavor extracts) Tofu, being made form whole foods, is packed with numerous vitamins, minerals and phytochemicals.......beyond meat is missing most of the nutrients contained in the whole foods it was engineered from.

 

And tofu is also re-engineered food that bares very little nutritional resemblance to cooked green soy beans.

unethicalvegan is offline  
#50 Old 02-12-2014, 05:12 PM
 
pandiculationco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post
 

 

And tofu is also re-engineered food that bares very little nutritional resemblance to cooked green soy beans.

 

 

Yep.  Particularly in the case of firm tofu, it is precipitated coagulated soy protein- basically, the first primitive way of isolating soy protein.  Minus the fiber, and most of the water soluble vitamins and minerals.

 

Having made tofu myself on many occasions, I'm always amazed that tofu contains anything aside from protein and fat at all.

It's still a very healthy food product, despite being so greatly altered by the hand of man.

pandiculationco is offline  
#51 Old 02-12-2014, 10:17 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post

This is not correct.  In fact, this type of unsupported speculation came not from peer-reviewed studies but from biased sources  (e.g. Ornish and Esselstyn) who were upset by data suggesting that some fats might actually reduce risk of CVD and metabolic syndromes.
What speculation? I didn't make any speculative comments instead I described the nature of the existing research and what he has yet to demonsrated. But, by all means, cite some studies that have demonstrated that including olive oil in low saturated fat whole foods eating pattern reduces cardiovascular disease risk.

Referring to researchers that advocate positions you don't like as "biased sources" is, ironically, an example of a bias. But these two don't have the same position on olive oil, Ornish doesn't suggest that healthy individuals need to completely avoid oils....just minimize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post

Also incorrect. In general, these studies used the same types of multivariate regression analyses used for EPIC and ADH2. And in this type of analysis it's possible to segregate the outcome by meat and dairy consumption

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa025039#t=article (see Table 2)
http://www.bmj.com/content/330/7498/991#T5 (Table 4)
Yes, its certainly possible to create a veganized Mediterranean diet score and use this data-set to get some information about such a diet.....but that isn't what was done in the studies you're citing. And such a diet would not, obviously, be equivalent to the Mediterranean and you can't conclude anything about a veganized Mediterranean diet from studies on the traditional Mediterranean diet. The Mediterranean diet is not a vegetarian eating pattern.....
logic is offline  
#52 Old 02-12-2014, 10:43 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post

And tofu is also re-engineered food that bares very little nutritional resemblance to cooked green soy beans.
Tofu is not a re-engineered food, its not created from isolates and flavor extracts like like beyond meat. One can easily make tofu in their kitchen, just soak some soy beans, blend, filter and cook to make soy milk. Coagulate the soy milk with some calcium sulfate and press....and you have tofu. Some nutrients are certainly lost in the process, but its by no means being re-engineered from isolates and it remains a nutritious food without fortification. But tofu was the most processed example I listed and its certainly not a food I would emphasize....but if one enjoys it I don't see any good reason to avoid it in small amounts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandiculationco View Post

Yep.  Particularly in the case of firm tofu, it is precipitated coagulated soy protein- basically, the first primitive way of isolating soy protein.  Minus the fiber, and most of the water soluble vitamins and minerals.
Tofu is 50% fat and contains numerous micro-nutrients.....hardly a protein isolate:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/legumes-and-legume-products/4393/2
logic is offline  
#53 Old 02-12-2014, 10:59 PM
Veggie Regular
 
beanspud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: FL
Posts: 1,106


This morninaga tofu is 33% fat by calories, is that due to the added isolated soy protein?
beanspud is offline  
#54 Old 02-12-2014, 11:10 PM
 
pandiculationco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by beanspud View Post


This morninaga tofu is 33% fat by calories, is that due to the added isolated soy protein?

 

Yes, most probably.

 

Good stuff, I love the extra extra firm.

pandiculationco is offline  
#55 Old 02-12-2014, 11:18 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by beanspud View Post



This morninaga tofu is 33% fat by calories, is that due to the added isolated soy protein?
That's odd, I don't think I've seen tofu that used protein isolate before, certainly wouldn't buy it. Though I've seen some reconstituted soy milks....strange stuff.
logic is offline  
#56 Old 02-13-2014, 11:37 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post
Coagulate the soy milk with some calcium sulfate and press....and you have tofu.

 

It's simply amazing that you believe that this process is any more "natural" than the use of heat, acid, grain alcohol, or calcium/magnesisum to precipitate (or extract) soy protein.

unethicalvegan is offline  
#57 Old 02-13-2014, 03:43 PM
 
pandiculationco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post
 

 

It's simply amazing that you believe that this process is any more "natural" than the use of heat, acid, grain alcohol, or calcium/magnesisum to precipitate (or extract) soy protein.

 

I think maybe he's giving modern industry a lot more credit than it deserves.

 

Soy protein isolate isn't even pure protein.  It also contains a little fat and carbs (although a bit less than tofu), along with minerals like iron, magnesium, calcium (which now that I think of it, some might come from the precipitating agents- but then, so do they in tofu)...

 

The main difference being that most of the oil has already been removed from the soy beans by that point.  Soy bean oil not being particularly healthy anyway, I don't begrudge them having denied me that fat source.

pandiculationco is offline  
#58 Old 02-13-2014, 07:11 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by unethicalvegan View Post

It's simply amazing that you believe that this process is any more "natural" than the use of heat, acid, grain alcohol, or calcium/magnesisum to precipitate (or extract) soy protein.
I think it would be helpful if you responded to what I actually said, I didn't say anything about the process being "more natural" instead I claimed that tofu isn't a re-engineered food. Tofu is a lightly processed food and there is some nutrient loss from its whole form, but tofu is not a re-engineered food. Tofu is not made by combining a bunch of isolated macro-nutrients, flavor extracts and chemicals..... And, as I said, its not like I would emphasize tofu as a good source of plant-based protein....eating a combination of whole grains and whole legumes is better.
logic is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off