Beyoncé and Jay Z Are Going Vegan for 22 Days: "It Just Feels Right," Rapper Says of Their New Diet - Page 5 - VeggieBoards
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#121 Old 12-18-2013, 06:29 AM
 
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Your interpretation of a vegan is wrong then.
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#122 Old 12-18-2013, 06:36 AM
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What concerns me about meatless Mondays is that it is a get out clause for people. People think they will be doing enough.

If people think eating animal products is wrong why do they think eating them on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday & Sunday is ok? Why aren't they meat free everyday? This is why education the morality and ethics behind it is so important at a grassroots level.

My brain hurts when I think about how other people rationalise their decisions.

 

I can see your point, but most people who do a meat free Monday do it for the environment or their health. People really do not think it through.

 

But if we can encourage them to take one step, one small step, and then another and another.....I appreciate that it won't always work, but everyone is different and if we want to convince others we have to look at it from inside their head and not from inside ours.

 

Just trying to get people to give up meat/fish/dairy/eggs will only work with the people who are ready for it, because it's a big step outside their comfort zone for most people, and if you present that as the only option or the option that they must work towards they won't even try.

 

If everyone stopped eating meat one day a week, it would make a difference to the amount of animals being killed. Not enough of course.....but a difference. 

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#123 Old 12-18-2013, 07:08 AM
 
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Angie likewise I get your point.

It just concerns me that's all. I know it makes a difference due to animal lives saved but it just worries me that it distances us even further from our end goal.

I think we would have far more vegans if we had promoted veganism as an ethical stance for say the last 10 years. I think deep down the vast majority of people 'get it' that it's wrong to hurt beings unessecary. It's teaching them why it is unessecary that we really need to work on. We do this everyday of our lives by living healthy, happy lives but perhaps we could do so much more by not being scared to offend people by simply talking about the morality of it all.
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#124 Old 12-18-2013, 07:21 AM
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Angie likewise I get your point.

It just concerns me that's all. I know it makes a difference due to animal lives saved but it just worries me that it distances us even further from our end goal.

I think we would have far more vegans if we had promoted veganism as an ethical stance for say the last 10 years. I think deep down the vast majority of people 'get it' that it's wrong to hurt beings unessecary. It's teaching them why it is unessecary that we really need to work on. We do this everyday of our lives by living healthy, happy lives but perhaps we could do so much more by not being scared to offend people by simply talking about the morality of it all.

 

The problem is Ponyboy, is that people don't want to know.  They really don't. They all know that there is cruelty involved in meat, (although they often only have a vague idea of the horrors behind the scenes) but they live in a world where everyone else eats meat, so it's easy and comfortable for them.  Try sharing some youtube videos on Facebook of animals in factory farms and see how many of your omnivorous friends watch them.  Not many, I'll hazard a guess, and the ones that do won't watch another, or will come up with excuses like ' oh I only eat humane meat' or the ubiquitous 'I don't eat much meat anyway' (often followed by 'I eat lots of chicken instead'). They are clueless, and will insist on remaining that way. (Believe me, I've tried it many times!)

 

Every heard of the saying 'softly softly catchee monkey'?  If they will not hear about animal abuse, then maybe we should appeal to their selfish instinct and talk about their health, rather than the health of farm animals. Or the bigger cause of the environment, and the future of the planet.  Whatever floats their personal boat and gets through to them: the only way we're going to sell them on a plant-free diet is to present the information in a way they will listen to.

 

The way I see it is to always be aware of the consequences of actions - and not be so fussed about the reasons behind those actions.  If that makes sense!

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#125 Old 12-18-2013, 07:40 AM
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Yes, I looked up the designer (Christopher Kane) and it was genuine fox fur.

 

That was my real issue - vegan or not, there's no excuse for wearing fur imo.  If she'd been eating a raw steak in an omni restaurant I'd have thought it a horrible jacket.  Wearing it to a vegan restaurant simply took it to another level of crassness.

Would you have felt different if instead of fox, Beyonce's fur collar had been made out of nutria, or some other invasive furred species that's been wreaking havoc with the indigenous wildlife ever since it was introduced to an area? I'll acknowledge up front that even if fox might do a lot of damage to human property where they live wild, we can be pretty sure Beyonce's fox came from a fur farm and that it endured a caged and horrible life. Right now I'm not talking about Beyonce's fox or fur farms. I'm talking about the margins of the larger conversation about fur, and whether people's beliefs about fur apply equally to all fur-related situations.

 

I don't eat fish, but I also don't oppose eradication efforts to get the snakeheads out of the Potomac River, where they are currently eating up all the other fish species that live there. Eradication efforts are also underway in some places with regard to nutria, and their fur is "harvested" and coats/jackets/collars are made from it. I wonder if people just think "fur is fur is wrong," or if people have other ideas besides trapping (or shooting), about how to undo the damage that happens once an invasive species has taken hold.

 

Trapping does seem cruel to me for all the obvious reasons, and obviously the best thing is not to introduce a foreign species in the first place. But are there vegan schools of thought about how to solve the problem once it's a problem, in less-cruel or not-cruel ways?  I don't know about the efficacy of trap-spay-release, for one thing. Does anyone here know? I think the main school of thought is that the ones who slip through the cracks will just repopulate the area, as did the first few that were mistakenly introduced in the first place.

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#126 Old 12-18-2013, 07:50 AM
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Your interpretation of a vegan is wrong then.

That's not fair.  She's entitled to disagree.  I think recognizing shades of grey is a real sign of maturity... sooner or later, we all have to recognize that the vast majority of issues feature some.  I do think that at the least not buying fur or leather (or doing the skinning yourself) has to also be included in the common definition of vegan, (it means abstaining from all animal products) but she specifically stated:

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I'm not arguing that anyone else should draw their line where I draw mine

Personally, I would draw the line to also exclude products animal tested, but I'm not so sure that's generally arguable.

 

Anyway, people have different beliefs about animal rights, so unless you have hard evidence that one particular view is the right one, and you still want to be an AR vegan, I think it's best to be content to have that accepted as our position (instead of being flatly told by anyone that it's the wrong one) and pleased with others going vegan from whatever interpretation.

 

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Oh my gosh, I totally see this. I may be guilty of it at times. 

 

It's all getting way too complicated. In my mind I think we should just all be happy when people choose not to eat or wear animals - no matter why, where or when, because each step is a good step. But then others disagree and then we get into it and it starts going round and round. 

 

I wonder if there's even a way to stop the round and round of all of this? Maybe not. 

Maybe so.  I don't know.  I get pretty impatient with conflict, but sometimes we probably do need the back and forth.  I think as people grow more sophisticated, they stand a better chance of finding a balanced approach.  Being civil is a valid concern, and so is being conscientious.  I just wanted to point out that there is no simple formula and we should also show forbearance with each other.


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#127 Old 12-18-2013, 07:59 AM
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Would you have felt different if instead of fox, Beyonce's fur collar had been made out of nutria, or some other invasive furred species that's been wreaking havoc with the indigenous wildlife ever since it was introduced to an area?

 

No, I personally believe that wearing fur is wrong, particularly for fashion purposes.

 

If the nutria were humanely culled (highly unlikely) then you could argue that their pelts would otherwise go to waste.  I still wouldn't agree with making coats out of them as it would normalise wearing fur all again.

 

Trap, spay, release would be my method of choice but, as you say, it's efficacy is in doubt if even a few slip through the net. Trapping is cruel and shooting too haphazard IMO.  Gassing and posoning are, of course, inhumane.  Humane trap and then shoot would be the most reliable way I suppose but very cost effective and still very stressful for the animal.

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#128 Old 12-18-2013, 08:00 AM
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I think there may be a slight difference between someone who is out trying a vegan meal with a pair of possibly leather shoes to someone who has vocally declared to the media they are going vegan for 22 days then tipping up at a vegan restaurant in a fox fur jacket and leather shoes one day and the next head to toe in leather. If it was fake fur and leather then why didn't she say it? Is she just making fun of people who care passionately about a cause? In which case she deserves to be pulled up on it? If she wasn't taking the piss with fake leather then she should have been politely educated as to why wearing fur and leather is the polar opposite of being vegan.

But Beyonce isn't the one who made the declaration to the media. She's going along with her husband on his experiment, and he made the declaration for both of them. He was even savvy enough to say "or as I prefer to call it, plant-based." I don't think Beyonce was asked about what she was wearing, so I'm not sure where she would have been expected to clarify. It's all about the food for these two, which I've been trying very hard to convey about the larger population: to most people veganism is all about the food. And you've already said you don't care what most people think. But if you would aspire to change minds and hearts, it might help to make yourself know and care what people think, and to meet them where they are with your message so you can craft your message in a way they'd be most likely to hear it. It's not just that dietary change is usually what happens first with a person, it's that dietary change has a far larger impact on animal cruelty than any of that person's subsequent changes will. More people eating plant-based makes a bigger difference to animals than managing to quadruple the number of people who change their brands of shampoo and toothpaste and switch to hemp belts and plastic shoes. I'm not putting down those changes, just pointing out that compared to not eating meat the difference they make is small.

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#129 Old 12-18-2013, 08:15 AM
 
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Woah lots of posts to reply to which is tricky on my phone.

Angie, I don't think it matters if they want to know or not, people I speak to either simply don't understand what goes on in the livestock industry or strongly believes that humans NEED meat, egg & dairy to survive and be healthy. It's very rare I ever get in a discussion on the topic and hear either 'yeah well I believe my enjoyment of meat far outweighs the pain or suffering that goes into it!' Or 'I know what goes on but I just don't want to think about it!

I usually hear some stupid excuse about the body needing it, a bible story or that animals wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for us. These to me are badly thought through defense mechanism to that socially conditioned choices that they and there love ones make. On the very rare occasion I hear that they think the taste outweighs the suffering argument is when the discussion is done and dusted and its an attempt to get a rise out of me.

I do also think convenience plays a huge factory to all non-vegans be it vegetarians or omnivores. For me this is a much more complex issue of consumerism and capitalism.
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#130 Old 12-18-2013, 08:53 AM
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I think the main reason why people eat meat is that everyone else is doing it. If the social norm was that eating meat isn't ok then it would be easier for everyone to just conform and not eat any of it.

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#131 Old 12-18-2013, 09:04 AM
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As I and others have said if people are turned off veganism by the 'vegan police' then they were never going to go vegan anyway!

 

I disagree. As I've noted many times here before I have been turned off by vegan police, yet I'm vegan. I know others who went vegan in spite of issues like this too. 

 

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What is it about dairy and eggs that people are so unwilling to give up on? Why is vegetarianism fairly accepted yet people get so angry about vegans?

 

This is a good question. It's nuts. When I was vegetarian my family had problems with it, but no where even close to the issues they had when I went vegan. People are REALLY into dairy especially and can't get why anyone in their right mind would give it up. It's so weird to me. 

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What concerns me about meatless Mondays is that it is a get out clause for people. People think they will be doing enough.

I know people who have gone veg then vegan due to small steps like Meatless Monday. I DO totally get the get-out-free clause though, because that's how I feel about paper towels. People buy recycled and they're not much better than virgin paper towels, and should give them up altogether, but recycled make people feel better, so they have an out. 

 

Still, since I know people who have given up meat and all animal products due to detoxes, meatless monday and so on, I feel like it's worse to put it down than support it. 

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#132 Old 12-18-2013, 03:42 PM
 
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For me personally, and I'm not arguing that anyone else should draw their line where I draw mine, I'd call person a vegan who does at least these two things:

 

1) abstains without exception from eating foods known to contain meat, fish, dairy or egg, and

 

2) identifies as vegan.

 

It's impossible to abstain without exception...which just leaves it at 2) as far as I am concerned.

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#133 Old 12-18-2013, 03:50 PM
 
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What concerns me about meatless Mondays is that it is a get out clause for people. People think they will be doing enough.

 

 

Why does this concern you? Isn't getting people to eat less meat a worthy goal in and of itself?

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#134 Old 12-18-2013, 03:58 PM
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It's impossible to abstain without exception...which just leaves it at 2) as far as I am concerned.

 

Possibly ue. I wonder how many of us vegans on VB eat crops that have NOT been grown using animal fertiliser?
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#135 Old 12-18-2013, 04:04 PM
 
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I think we would have far more vegans if we had promoted veganism as an ethical stance for say the last 10 years. I think deep down the vast majority of people 'get it' that it's wrong to hurt beings unessecary. It's teaching them why it is unessecary that we really need to work on.

 

Which ethical stance? I'm pretty sure we have different stances, ponyboy85.

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 We do this everyday of our lives by living healthy, happy lives but perhaps we could do so much more by not being scared to offend people by simply talking about the morality of it all.

I doubt you intended to draw the distinction but there is a difference between ethics and morality. Ethics is the process of using "reasoning" and "logic" to make choices while morality is the process of using a set of practices or teachings to decide what is right and wrong. I am not a fan of moralism or moralists.

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#136 Old 12-18-2013, 05:23 PM
 
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Possibly [tr]ue. I wonder how many of us vegans on VB eat crops that have NOT been grown using animal fertiliser?

Use of animals permeates our society. When I started caring about indirect exploitation it became awfully difficult to think of animal use in black and white terms.

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#137 Old 12-18-2013, 06:41 PM
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What concerns me about meatless Mondays is that it is a get out clause for people. People think they will be doing enough.

If people think eating animal products is wrong why do they think eating them on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday & Sunday is ok? Why aren't they meat free everyday? This is why education the morality and ethics behind it is so important at a grassroots level.

My brain hurts when I think about how other people rationalise their decisions.

 


Meatless Mondays 'can' be a get out clause for people. But in some small way, they're then at least part of the way to acknowledging what they're doing  by eating meat. And if they can be meat free on one day of the week, then it might lead them to try it for a whole week, or month, or year, or lifetime. Maybe they won't, maybe they'll only do it on the Monday. But regardless of that, it removes the taboo status of vegan and vegetarian once it becomes an accepted thing to do.

Also, I've seen a lot of vegans and vegetarians these days who first went meat free because of something like food poisoning or just trying out a plant-based diet. It was being away from those meat systems, that allowed them the room to see what they did and didn't want to be part of. Hell, I'm one of them. I did 30 Days of no meat more out of curiosity than caring for animals (though part of me secretly hoped that it would be an awesome experience and it was pretty good). I went back to eating meat after that, but rarely. When I saw video footage of a slaughterhouse that was torturing animals, I cut meat in an instant. I don't know that I would have necessarily have even considered cutting meat, before having those 30 days without it.

 

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What is it about dairy and eggs that people are so unwilling to give up on? Why is vegetarianism fairly accepted yet people get so angry about vegans?

I just think we should try a grassroots movement where we promote non-violent education of veganism and the morality of using animals. I think we would make headway if we did this. As soon as more vegan products come out and are more accessible then the more vegans there will be, but to get there we must start trying to get people to adopt a vegan way of life so businesses understand their is a niche in the market. This would mean we were closer to our overall goal of animal liberation. If we applaud people for going vegetarian I think we just solidfy the commodity status of animals thus damaging the cause.


Vegetarianism is fairly accepted? I wish that was the case. If it was, we'd see a lot more vegetarians and probably a lot more vegans as a result. While (as Ange pointed out) there is more acceptance towards it now, there's still a lot of aggression out there towards vegetarians and vegans alike. In my personal experience, whether I'm turning down something because it has meat in it or because it has egg in it, the defensive reaction doesn't differ all that much (especially when I explain it's not a dietary complaint that's motivating my choice, but a moral/ethical one).

Of course, I think vegans probably cop more of that defensive aggression, but probably because you're giving them more things to be defensively aggressive about. As has been pointed out, veganism isn't just food, it's what you wear, what products you use. A whole heap of ways for people to be confronted, so it makes sense that if they're going to be aggressive about it that their aggression will grow with more products that you don't use, that they do. Veganism is also just more scary. People can imagine a world without killing animals, they might even like the idea. But when they think of a world where animals aren't used at all, that's so completely contrary to what they are used to, it's so alien, that they're just going to be aggressive. The way most people are when new ideas are brought up. That's why the key is to not get aggressive back. It gives them time to think about what they're really objecting to.

And finally, I don't think applauding vegetarianism solidifies the commodity status of animals. No more than applauding someone who's not eating animals, solidifies the continued acceptance of the slaughter of animals. Do you honestly think that if the world went vegetarian tomorrow that it wouldn't be a better place for animals in general? That it wouldn't be a huge step in the direction of veganism?

I know the abolitionist vegan approach calls for people for no exceptions to the rule, that without absolute veganism the world won't move forward. But that simply isn't the case. With every rights movement, with every social justice movement, it has been the push of different groups that has achieved real change. History has taught us that we don't all have to be on exactly the same page, or even reading from the same book, to make things better for those who are oppressed.
 

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#138 Old 12-19-2013, 02:03 AM
 
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I can only go off my own experiences and concerns. If I discuss it anymore I feel we would be going round in circles.

I hear 'I only eat free range organic meat' excuse ALOT! I know for a fact that these people do not eat free range meat all the time anywhere regardless of the fact they have been duped by the 'freedom food' myth. They usually say...... 'Yeah your right the suffering and pain is wrong which is why I only eat *insert some bull***** which is killed humanely!'

Where I live in NE of the UK (classed by many as kind of backwater/behind the times) vegetarianism is very accepted. Every pub, restaurant, cafe has numerous vegetarian options and I would guess that 1 in 10 people I know are vegetarian. When I went vegetarian nobody really said anything at all and left me alone. Dear me I was I'm for a shock when I went vegan.
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#139 Old 12-19-2013, 03:15 AM
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I can only go off my own experiences and concerns. If I discuss it anymore I feel we would be going round in circles.

I hear 'I only eat free range organic meat' excuse ALOT! I know for a fact that these people do not eat free range meat all the time anywhere regardless of the fact they have been duped by the 'freedom food' myth. They usually say...... 'Yeah your right the suffering and pain is wrong which is why I only eat *insert some bull***** which is killed humanely!'

Where I live in NE of the UK (classed by many as kind of backwater/behind the times) vegetarianism is very accepted. Every pub, restaurant, cafe has numerous vegetarian options and I would guess that 1 in 10 people I know are vegetarian. When I went vegetarian nobody really said anything at all and left me alone. Dear me I was I'm for a shock when I went vegan.


Oh, the 'organic' argument.... Dude, I hear you!

But, I like when people bring it up, gives me the opportunity to ask them what they actually know about labels that say "Free Range" and "Organic". Usually, they don't know what it entails so things like debeaking of birds or castrating without pain medication comes into the equation. As much as it's an excuse for a lot of people, I try and use it as a way to educate.

As much as you may not realise it, you might have lucked out with where you live. I mean, certainly it sucks that people can't be more supportive/kind when it comes to your veganism, but imagine having that kind of resistance when you first went vegetarian. Do you think you would have made it to vegan if people around you had been as aggressive as they are to you as a vegan? (Which sucks, by the way, people shouldn't be like that and it's annoying when they are).

One of the best perks of moving to the city, for me, was finally being somewhere where I could say "I'm a vegetarian" without people looking at me as though I'd proposed we all eat children from breakfast....




 

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#140 Old 12-19-2013, 03:29 AM
 
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Totally agree with the aggressiveness, however, I wish the vegans I did know hadn't been concerned about discussing the moral consistency aspect along with the truth behind egg and dairy industry for so long. If they had been open and non-confrontational I would have been vegan around 2 years earlier.

If we are not aggressive and offensive them we need not be concerned about people being offended!

Where do you live? Where I live we have the worse unemployment rate, worst education, cheapest houses etc it is also very rural yet I like I say it would be about 1 in 10 people I know are vegetarian and about 1 in 50 would be vegan. I also play a lot of sports and box so it's not like I live in a left wing, hippy commune!

Perhaps it's the UK in general?
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#141 Old 12-19-2013, 05:05 AM
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Totally agree with the aggressiveness, however, I wish the vegans I did know hadn't been concerned about discussing the moral consistency aspect along with the truth behind egg and dairy industry for so long. If they had been open and non-confrontational I would have been vegan around 2 years earlier.

If we are not aggressive and offensive them we need not be concerned about people being offended!

Where do you live? Where I live we have the worse unemployment rate, worst education, cheapest houses etc it is also very rural yet I like I say it would be about 1 in 10 people I know are vegetarian and about 1 in 50 would be vegan. I also play a lot of sports and box so it's not like I live in a left wing, hippy commune!

Perhaps it's the UK in general?


Are you saying they weren't actually letting you know WHY they weren't eating eggs and dairy?

I think it's hard, no matter how we discuss why we don't eat something. I don't like to be confrontational with people, but I don't lie by omission either.


I live in Australia, which is probably LIKE the UK (as far as our food is concerned :P) in a lot of places. And around Christmas? You'd think it was England.
 

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#142 Old 12-19-2013, 05:47 AM
 
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No what I mean is I never asked because I didn't see anything wrong with it. If one of the vegans I knew had said at the appropriate time 'hey here's an article you should maybe read about the dairy industry' I would have read it, digested it and then done more research on it before making a balanced decision.

As you can all obviously tell I read and agree with the theories of Francione. Someone shared one of his posters one day which I read and then moved onto some of his essays and was dumbstruck as to why no vegan had ever spoke about the same obviousness of what this guy was saying in his essays! It is pretty obvious that if you believe animals matter morally and dont deserve to suffer then you should stop using all aspects of animal products! It was like someone was smacking me with a stupid branch.

There is really nothing offensive with explaining to people why causing unnecessary suffering and pain on something is bad and then explaining why consuming animal products is entirely unessecary.

You don't have to get angry or shun them if they don't agree with me. I try to speak about veganism to one stranger everyday about the subject as long as the appropriate time comes up. One example is in the supermarket another is in a restaurant. Human beings are inquisitive and will ask you questions without you even mentioning it.
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#143 Old 12-19-2013, 05:49 AM
 
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This jay-z and Beyonce stuff gives us a perfect opportunity to discuss with people what veganism is and why we do what we do. That includes explaining why the 2 of them cannot really be considered vegan.
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#144 Old 12-19-2013, 06:32 AM
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It's impossible to abstain without exception...which just leaves it at 2) as far as I am concerned.

Well, I agree with this much: vegan in name only is just number two.

But "impossible" is the eternal hallmark of premature conclusions.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy85 View Post

I hear 'I only eat free range organic meat' excuse ALOT!

Of course it's a concern that people will stop at less meat in and of itself; look at how this "humane meat" rationalization is so much on the rise.  And at the same time, so are quasi-vegan rationalizations, ex-vegan activists, and this whole strategy of self-effacing marketing in the movement.  Since pushing has put vegan into the mainstream, now's the time to stop and back down ...?  Yeah, that's real logical.  Sure.


Jenner: I learned this much: take what you can, when you can.

Justin: Then you have learned nothing!

 

The Secret of NIMH

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#145 Old 12-19-2013, 07:04 AM
 
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Veganism was always going to find its way to the mainstream because vegans explain to others what it's all about. I just think if we had made more of an effort at vegan education 10 years ago we could well have been further ahead now than we will be in 5 years time

Imagine if 'freedom food' didnt exist at all? These people would have to choose between vegan and non-vegan and I hold the belief that many would have chose to be vegan.
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#146 Old 12-19-2013, 08:24 AM
 
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There is really nothing offensive with explaining to people why causing unnecessary suffering and pain on something is bad and then explaining why consuming animal products is entirely unessecary.

 

Sure there is. When you berate and shame new vegans/pregans publicly it harms the vegan cause. It makes veganism appear extreme and judgmental. If your goal is to be a member of an exclusive club then that's fine...but that is not my goal at all.

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#147 Old 12-19-2013, 08:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyboy85 View Post
As you can all obviously tell I read and agree with the theories of Francione.
That includes explaining why the 2 of them cannot really be considered vegan.

 

Neither you nor Gary Francione get to decide who is and is not vegan.

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#148 Old 12-19-2013, 11:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike4891 View Post
 

Of course it's a concern that people will stop at less meat in and of itself; look at how this "humane meat" rationalization is so much on the rise.  And at the same time, so are quasi-vegan rationalizations, ex-vegan activists, and this whole strategy of self-effacing marketing in the movement.  Since pushing has put vegan into the mainstream, now's the time to stop and back down ...?  Yeah, that's real logical.  Sure.

 

Do you agree or disagree that "pushing" has played a role in the ~1000% increase in people who identify as vegan in the USA?

 

 

1997: ~0.3%

2011: ~3%

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#149 Old 12-19-2013, 01:02 PM
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IDK, how many people here has become  vegan because vegans were trying to shame them? I can't speak for others but I can't say that shame has played a big role in my own conversion.

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#150 Old 12-19-2013, 01:56 PM
 
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Dear me, read my posts again. I never said anything about shaming or berating but discussing and educating. Not applauding people for baby steps is not offensive, we are not dealing with children.

I'm afraid I can say if someone is not vegan if they do not match the definition of what a vegan is.
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