Beyoncé and Jay Z Are Going Vegan for 22 Days: "It Just Feels Right," Rapper Says of Their New Diet - Page 4 - VeggieBoards
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#91 Old 12-13-2013, 04:08 PM
 
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The investigators themselves were surprised at some of the results that turned out different than what they expected going into it. One result was that health was at least as strong a continuing motivator as animal rights. Environmental motivation worked even better for the population they studied.

Your link no longer worked but that was a fascinating survey:

 

http://www.vrg.org/research/retention_survey_2009.php

 

I've always thought that the anecdotal claims that AR-centric vegans have less recidivism was self-serving.

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#92 Old 12-14-2013, 02:00 AM
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Your link no longer worked but that was a fascinating survey:

 

http://www.vrg.org/research/retention_survey_2009.phphttp://www.vrg.org/research/retention_survey_2009.php

 

I've always thought that the anecdotal claims that AR-centric vegans have less recidivism was self-serving.

 

Your link has duplicated so it's not working, it should be http://www.vrg.org/research/retention_survey_2009.php

 

And that's very interesting: thanks.

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#93 Old 12-14-2013, 07:31 AM
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Unethicalvegan, Angie, Thanks for the heads-up and the good link. I fixed it in my post and we're cooking now!

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#94 Old 12-16-2013, 12:13 PM
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Oh, geez. Time just posted this: 

 

Jay-Z and Beyoncé Are Vegan! Why You Shouldn’t Follow Their Lead

 

Why? They seem to be basing their opinion on Mark Bittman's ideas, which is hilarious considering he's not even full on vegan. They also say because there's no benefits in going vegan for even a while (which I disagree with) and say that PT vegans are often junk food vegans (also disagree) - I think some PT vegans are junk food vegans, but not all and some FT vegans I've met are total junk addicts, so length of time has nothing to do with actual food choices. 


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#95 Old 12-16-2013, 03:15 PM
 
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What is a PT vegan?
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#96 Old 12-16-2013, 03:17 PM
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What is a PT vegan?

Sorry, I actually meant temp vegan, not PT. Like someone who commits to try vegan for a while is a temporary vegan - possible convert, but maybe not. 


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#97 Old 12-16-2013, 04:49 PM
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hilarious considering he's not even full on vegan.

It gets on my nerves when faker vegans than I am sell out the whole concept I pretend to improve! :lol:

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#98 Old 12-16-2013, 10:16 PM
 
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[Mod action:I've closed unethicalvegan's new thread and moved the posts to this existing thread as it relates to the continuing story of Beyonce, Jay Z and veganism.  Leedsveg]

 

 

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/rankin-full-stop/2013/dec/9/vegan-police-nobody-safe/

 

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Those less than thrilled with the couple’s public pronouncement are the entrenched, hardcore vegans. They have perfected the drawing of lines in the proverbial sand to an art form. They are forever seeking new ways to separate themselves from the unenlightened masses who may soil the pristine vegan ghettos they have built up for themselves. They are the self-ordained vegan police, guardians of some subjective ethical code which all vegans, current and potential, must follow. 

These vegans, while their ire at the passing or temporary vegan is understandable, have created an environment which is contrary to their stated end goals. Most vegans long for a day when more people follow the lifestyle...

These blue bloods have imagined themselves stewards of veganism and, in so doing, have unconsciously pushed away countless possible converts. The reality is that, no matter what inspires someone to experiment with a cruelty-free lifestyle, that person ought to be afforded the same understanding as these vegan snobs received when they were just starting out. 

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#99 Old 12-17-2013, 12:42 AM
 
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No seriously I didn't get that PT meant part time when I first read it!

Haha I would have said wouldn't that be an omnivore!
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#100 Old 12-17-2013, 12:56 AM
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Too true.


[Mod post: natty6 is referring here to unethicalvegan's post #98. Leedsveg
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#101 Old 12-17-2013, 01:16 AM
 
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Yawn. This vegan police craic is very tiresome and dull.

So people explaining why Beyonce and Jay z are not in fact vegan is being a warranted officer in the vegan police? Give over!

I get people twisting if vegans were crying on about them not doing enough for animals, should not bother if they can't be actual vegan etc etc but I haven't seen that anywhere. All I've seen was people annoyed that she went to a vegan restaurant in a fox fur jacket and people explaining to others why they are not in fact vegan whilst politely explaining what veganism is.
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#102 Old 12-17-2013, 08:49 AM
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Yawn. This vegan police craic is very tiresome and dull.

So people explaining why Beyonce and Jay z are not in fact vegan is being a warranted officer in the vegan police? Give over!

I get people twisting if vegans were crying on about them not doing enough for animals, should not bother if they can't be actual vegan etc etc but I haven't seen that anywhere. All I've seen was people annoyed that she went to a vegan restaurant in a fox fur jacket and people explaining to others why they are not in fact vegan whilst politely explaining what veganism is.

The problem I see is that two people are trying to do something that is not only a great move for our cause for them personally but also for our public relations. They are eating cruelty free and that is fantastic. We should be praising that move and thankful for the animals spared. They are on our team right now. Instead we attack Beyonce for wearing animals. She hasn't even been trying to do this for a month yet! Give her a minute! Plus it would be a huge move if she stays vegan, which she is less likely to do if the vegan community shames on her for not doing it right. We are in the public eye right now with this, even here on vb. People are interested in this story and google searching Beyonce and Jayzee vegan brings up forums and articles with comments by vegans. We can enforce the vegan stereotypes by reacting to our personal problem with a self-proclaimed vegan wearing fur or we can improve public opinion of us by praising them for trying to eat a plant based diet. I just really hope they stay with it, I think it would be great for getting other people on board.
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#103 Old 12-17-2013, 10:28 AM
 
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The original statement from Jay-Z seems to refer to vegan strictly in the dietary sense. It would have been more clear and avoided some of the drama to merely claim they were temporarily adopting a strict vegetarian or animal-free diet.

Some people only think of vegan in the dietary sense, and not the broader avoidance of all animal products.
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#104 Old 12-17-2013, 10:50 AM
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The original statement from Jay-Z seems to refer to vegan strictly in the dietary sense. It would have been more clear and avoided some of the drama to merely claim they were temporarily adopting a strict vegetarian or animal-free diet.

Some people only think of vegan in the dietary sense, and not the broader avoidance of all animal products.

True, and I'd take it further than "some people." I'd say nearly everyone out there thinks of vegan in the dietary sense only,even many vegans. Merriam-Webster Dictionary's first definition of the word vegan refers solely to diet, then acknowledges that a vegan may abstain from other animal use as well. Gary Francione, an opinion leader among animal rights vegans, calls diet the minimum requirement for people to call themselves vegan. If someone is a dues-paying member of the Vegan Society, that person will presumably cleave to the more-encompassing definition we all know here. But out in the world, a strict vegetarian is somebody who never, ever eats meat, not even on vacation in Paris, not even at Thanksgiving. We can't really expect more clarity than that from celebrities who are just trying it on for size.

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#105 Old 12-17-2013, 01:50 PM
 
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Thanks for moving my thread, leedsveg.  Russ Rankin is not only a famous punk rocker but has been vegan for a very long time.

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#106 Old 12-17-2013, 02:28 PM
 
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Hey if because I explain to people what veganism is and that by wearing a fur coat whilst going to a vegan restaurant is pretty unvegan means I'm a member of the vegan police then where to a sign up for life? I'm ready to commit my life to the vegan police for the sake of educating people about veganism being an ethical stance not a fad diet.

I didn't even mention anything about them 'saving animals lives', I simply said I don't see why a ****storm has developed just because some vegans politely explained to people that they were not in fact vegan and thus educated people of what veganism is and why people adopt a vegan way of life.
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#107 Old 12-17-2013, 02:35 PM
 
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And I don't care what most people think. Veganism is NOT just a diet and never will be and this is why many vegans take the hump with **** like this. It removes the meaning of a word that means so much to them and people like me are worried that in the long run the word will be so diluted that a vegan way of life will never get anywhere and the animals will suffer more. Yes Jay Z & Beyonce may save a few chickens lives in the 22 days they go vegan but the damage they could do in the long run to the vegan movement could be terrible.

By the way in the UK pretty much everyone I know understands what veganism is and that it is far more than a diet.
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#108 Old 12-17-2013, 04:17 PM
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It's getting to the point where critics of vegan police act like a police force themselves.  There's a new veg*n cultural standard against pressuring people to conform to vegan cultural standards, and a whole subgroup persistently pressures vegans to conform to that.  Rather than contribute to the stated goal of more enlightened discourse, it is simply "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."  How does omitting mention of abstaining from fur for marketing purposes make us wiser and more sensitive?  It doesn't, if you're still piling on to shame anyone who gets out of line by bringing it up -- it just makes a new "good marketing" goalpost less vegan.

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#109 Old 12-17-2013, 06:17 PM
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It's getting to the point where critics of vegan police act like a police force themselves.  There's a new veg*n cultural standard against pressuring people to conform to vegan cultural standards, and a whole subgroup persistently pressures vegans to conform to that.  Rather than contribute to the stated goal of more enlightened discourse, it is simply "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."  How does omitting mention of abstaining from fur for marketing purposes make us wiser and more sensitive?  It doesn't, if you're still piling on to shame anyone who gets out of line by bringing it up -- it just makes a new "good marketing" goalpost less vegan.

Oh my gosh, I totally see this. I may be guilty of it at times. 

 

It's all getting way too complicated. In my mind I think we should just all be happy when people choose not to eat or wear animals - no matter why, where or when, because each step is a good step. But then others disagree and then we get into it and it starts going round and round. 

 

I wonder if there's even a way to stop the round and round of all of this? Maybe not. 


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#110 Old 12-17-2013, 10:06 PM
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I see the vegan police policing the vegan police point. I'm sorry if I offended and or policed you, pony boy, or anyone else. My comment quoted yours but was aimed at people criticizing them in general, not you. I see your point about keeping veganism pure and not giving slack. I hold to my opinion that we should only show positivity to people moving to end cruelty and not criticism but that is my opinion. I want world vegan conversion so badly that I want all vegans at all times to be on their best behavior, as *I* define best behavior, which isn't fair, reasonable, or sane.
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#111 Old 12-17-2013, 10:18 PM
 
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It's getting to the point where critics of vegan police act like a police force themselves.  There's a new veg*n cultural standard against pressuring people to conform to vegan cultural standards, and a whole subgroup persistently pressures vegans to conform to that.  Rather than contribute to the stated goal of more enlightened discourse, it is simply "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."  How does omitting mention of abstaining from fur for marketing purposes make us wiser and more sensitive?  It doesn't, if you're still piling on to shame anyone who gets out of line by bringing it up -- it just makes a new "good marketing" goalpost less vegan.

 

in this case vegans criticized a couple of pregan newbies who happen to be among the most influential celebrities on the planet. not a smart move if your goal is more vegans. i also want to emphasize that i personally know long-term vegans who started out on one of those 21 day kickstart thingies and never stopped.

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#112 Old 12-18-2013, 12:45 AM
 
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You see no one is criticising their choice to cut down on meat because its great.

People are simply explaining they are no where near being vegan so shouldn't use the word.

I hear time and time again from people in the animal rights movement that we haven't really got anywhere in the last 20 years. Angie the poster on this board said the same, that she thought we would be so much further forward than we are now. Perhaps it's time to stop letting people bend veganism over and do what they want with it, stop praising people for doing very little for the animals and promote veganism and nothing else. Just an idea but as a movement perhaps we should try a different assault and see if we get better results that we have over the last 20 years.

As I and others have said if people are turned off veganism by the 'vegan police' then they were never going to go vegan anyway!
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#113 Old 12-18-2013, 01:27 AM
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You see no one is criticising their choice to cut down on meat because its great.

People are simply explaining they are no where near being vegan so shouldn't use the word.

I hear time and time again from people in the animal rights movement that we haven't really got anywhere in the last 20 years. Angie the poster on this board said the same, that she thought we would be so much further forward than we are now. Perhaps it's time to stop letting people bend veganism over and do what they want with it, stop praising people for doing very little for the animals and promote veganism and nothing else. Just an idea but as a movement perhaps we should try a different assault and see if we get better results that we have over the last 20 years.

As I and others have said if people are turned off veganism by the 'vegan police' then they were never going to go vegan anyway!

 

It's the last 30 years actually PonyBoy ;)  But yes, I did say that.  However, the Meat Free Monday/environment/health arguments, with people cutting down on animal consumption has made a difference in the way that many omnivores now view vegetarian food.  There is still a large subset of men who insist that meat=macho, but things are moving towards a more plant-based diet for a lot of people. Very slowly though, as I noted before.

 

The thing is, I don't think it has to be a either/or issue. The ultimate goal is for our society  to stop consuming or using any animal products, and it's important to keep that in mind - but to push people along that path will lead to resistance in many. 

 

Some people (like yourself, for instance): once they saw it, they took action. Others will need more time, a lot more time to get there, and many  others won't unless they're forced - by not being able to procure or afford the meat/animal based products, for example.

 

So one message will not work. And however someone starts along the path, they must be met with kindness and compassion by people who are further along the pathway, and not just prodded and told that what they're doing isn't good enough.  Prodding will work for a select few, but take my word for it - in the last 30 years I've done my fair share of prodding and I'm honest enough to admit that I've probably done more harm than good.

 

It's taken me a good while, but I've learned that positive encouragement works better.  So that doesn't mean that if someone goes to a vegan restaurant wearing leather that we spend time sarcastically pointing out the dissonance, because the dissonance we think they should feel is in our imagination, it may not exist in their head. Instead it means that we could praise Beyonce and Jay Z for eating a vegan diet, rather than 'going vegan' for 22 days.

 

As Thumper once said (to Bambi) 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all'.

 

As a group of vegetarians and vegans we need to be more encouraging and welcoming, rather than pointing out the things they are doing wrong. Let's be inclusive, let's get them into our wonderful group, and and then they can work out for themselves what they're doing wrong by following the general group behaviour.  

 

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#114 Old 12-18-2013, 03:07 AM
 
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Oh I agree, it should be positive and innovative education of veganism as a moral issue. If people say 'hey I think vegetarianism is enough' then that's fine but I don't see anything wrong with politely explaining to them that what they are doing isn't really consistent to the morality that they already must agree on if they are contemplating vegetarianism. I'm not saying they should be shunned because of it and i've personally never ever seen a situation where a vegan is offensive to a vegetarian for 'not doing enough'.

What is it about dairy and eggs that people are so unwilling to give up on? Why is vegetarianism fairly accepted yet people get so angry about vegans?

I just think we should try a grassroots movement where we promote non-violent education of veganism and the morality of using animals. I think we would make headway if we did this. As soon as more vegan products come out and are more accessible then the more vegans there will be, but to get there we must start trying to get people to adopt a vegan way of life so businesses understand their is a niche in the market. This would mean we were closer to our overall goal of animal liberation. If we applaud people for going vegetarian I think we just solidfy the commodity status of animals thus damaging the cause.
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#115 Old 12-18-2013, 06:10 AM
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Was it confirmed that Beyonce and Jay-Z were wearing genuine fur at that vegan restaurant, and not artificial? When you talk about people wearing leather in a vegan restaurant, all you have to do is look around.  During my last visit to Portland I went to some vegan restaurants wearing the only shoes i brought on the trip, which are made out of leather. No baleful glares, no pointing and whispering in my direction. From the looks of the shoes, bags and belts in the room, most of the people in The Bye and Bye and at the Red and Black Cafe wore and/or carried even more leather than I did. And, right, maybe some of that "leather" was artificial. But probably not the Timberland and Docksider footwear. If somebody is trying out a vegan diet for three weeks, I don't imagine they'd be expected to take on a whole new wardrobe for the experiment. And there's no etiquette I'm aware of that says if you go into a vegan restaurant you're expected to dress like an animal rights vegan.

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#116 Old 12-18-2013, 06:18 AM
 
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I think there may be a slight difference between someone who is out trying a vegan meal with a pair of possibly leather shoes to someone who has vocally declared to the media they are going vegan for 22 days then tipping up at a vegan restaurant in a fox fur jacket and leather shoes one day and the next head to toe in leather. If it was fake fur and leather then why didn't she say it? Is she just making fun of people who care passionately about a cause? In which case she deserves to be pulled up on it? If she wasn't taking the piss with fake leather then she should have been politely educated as to why wearing fur and leather is the polar opposite of being vegan.

Also what's an animal rights vegan? Would that not be a vegan?
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#117 Old 12-18-2013, 06:41 AM
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I just think we should try a grassroots movement where we promote non-violent education of veganism and the morality of using animals. I think we would make headway if we did this. As soon as more vegan products come out and are more accessible then the more vegans there will be, but to get there we must start trying to get people to adopt a vegan way of life so businesses understand their is a niche in the market. This would mean we were closer to our overall goal of animal liberation. If we applaud people for going vegetarian I think we just solidfy the commodity status of animals thus damaging the cause.

 

It's a 'chicken and egg' situation - we need more vegan products available to encourage people to live in a vegan way, but we need more people to be vegan, to encourage businesses to see the value in creating vegan food and other products.

 

At the moment, with the small amount of vegans there is, there is not enough demand for businesses to create more and more vegan stuff.  So the way forward appears to be to get people who are not vegan or vegetarian interested in eating and using vegan products on a regulard basis (meat free Monday, anyone? ;)), so that demand is created.  As more vegan products become available people will move towards a more vegan diet and way of living. Hopefully/maybe.

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#118 Old 12-18-2013, 07:00 AM
 
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What concerns me about meatless Mondays is that it is a get out clause for people. People think they will be doing enough.

If people think eating animal products is wrong why do they think eating them on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday & Sunday is ok? Why aren't they meat free everyday? This is why education the morality and ethics behind it is so important at a grassroots level.

My brain hurts when I think about how other people rationalise their decisions.
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#119 Old 12-18-2013, 07:12 AM
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Also what's an animal rights vegan? Would that not be a vegan?

Yes, of course an animal rights vegan is a vegan. But if you're saying that's the only kind there is, I disagree. There are animal welfare vegans, for one thing. Also, vegans whose motivation is coming from other issues besides or in addition to animal cruelty. I've explained in other threads what I think doesn't work so well about terms like "strict vegetarian." That term too often fails to convey the meaning intended by the speaker. This makes it an unsatisfactory term except in groups made up of AR vegans and those who aspire to become AR vegans just as soon as all their shoe leather wears out.

 

For me personally, and I'm not arguing that anyone else should draw their line where I draw mine, I'd call person a vegan who does at least these two things:

 

1) abstains without exception from eating foods known to contain meat, fish, dairy or egg, and

 

2) identifies as vegan.

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#120 Old 12-18-2013, 07:25 AM
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Was it confirmed that Beyonce and Jay-Z were wearing genuine fur at that vegan restaurant, and not artificial?

 

Yes, I looked up the designer (Christopher Kane) and it was genuine fox fur.

 

That was my real issue - vegan or not, there's no excuse for wearing fur imo.  If she'd been eating a raw steak in an omni restaurant I'd have thought it a horrible jacket.  Wearing it to a vegan restaurant simply took it to another level of crassness.

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