One year later after going vegan + no oil: the results of my heart catheter checkup - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 05-16-2013, 07:19 AM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296

Today was finally the day I had my one year heart catheter checkup, and also one year since starting the reversal diet.

First of all, the results were good. The doctor said there are no signs of blockages anywhere, there are no problems with the stent which was installed last year when I had my heart attack, and arteries he was worried last year were at risk of narrowing further and becoming blocked were just fine.

However, the big question in my mind was "did the reversal diet actually reverse anything?" Even after this test the answer is not clear at all.

The main points:

1. Since starting, I've lost 74 lbs. However, I've been on a plateau now for 3.5 months and still have over 40 lb to lose to get down to a normal BMI. I can't get off the plateau.

2. My blood sugar dropped from a very high HbA1c of 10.7 to the normal range of 5-ish, and I'm not taking any blood sugar medication. But I've experienced the same thing in the past and my blood sugar always has returned to normal if I lose weight, no matter what I eat.

3. My cholesterol values are great. Probably better than everybody I know. Total cholesterol of 122 and LDL of 69. However, my cholesterol did not start dropping until I started taking 1 statin each evening back in August. So it's not clear how much the reversal program has helped with this, though the doctor said he did not think the 1 statin alone could have had such a dramatic impact on my cholesterol and thinks it's a combination of diet and medication.

4. My blood pressure is normal (115/65), but I've never had high blood pressure, which doctors thought was amazing considering my weight.

5. My cardiac EF did go from a low 50% to a high-normal value of 67% over the year.

But the most important point is that the doctor said while the visual results showed nothing "getting worse" and no extra blockages, there was definitely no noticeable reduction of plaque.

So I'm left wondering - what exactly did the reversal program accomplish this past year, besides helping me lose a lot of weight (though I'm stuck on a plateau right now)?

Even though it did not "reverse" anything, is it responsible for things not getting progressively worse? That would be good in and of itself.

Or is all it did was help me lose weight?

I don't know. I tried to pin the doctor down on this and he doesn't know either. He says he thinks the diet is overly restrictive and there is nothing wrong with eating some meats and oils as long the calories are kept low. He is not convinced that the reversal program itself is necessary. Yet he says the fact that I have stayed on the diet (any diet basically) has been the cause of the good results today. And being vegan + no oils does help me control calories.

My feeling are mixed at this point. I don't feel a desire to go non-vegan because of any cravings or feeling like I'm "deprived." I feel satisfied with what I eat. But I really would like to lose the rest of my weight. And I have to admit to feeling a bit disappointed there was no visible plaque reduction. Though I'm naturally pleased that plaque buildup seems to have stopped in its tracks - and maybe that would not be the case if I wasn't following the reversal program for a year now. I just don't know.

I wish I had some more definitive information to report. I'm just one person though, so there are limits to the controls possible in doing experimentation.

The doctor seemed elated with the results. But his advice was "you have done really well with your diet but I'm worried that you are too stressed about it and trying too hard, and I think it's ok to loosen your restrictions a bit on being 100% vegan plus no oils, etc."

I am loathe to experiment, but I have to admit there have been a few things that never made sense to me.

For example, I know that even though I personally decided to go vegan, that is not required on the reversal program, since non-fat dairy products are allowed. What doesn't make sense to me is if those are allowed, why aren't miniscule amounts of other animal products with bare traces of cholesterol also allowed?

For example, there are many non-oil salad dressings in the supermarket, but I've only found 1 that is vegan. The others may list as the 5th or 6th ingredient some chicken or fish or pork extract. I've avoided those, even though I know the cholesterol in those dressings are less than in skim milk. So for a year I've had the exact same salad dressing every day. I like it, but some variety would be nice.

Similarly, I never have restaurant miso soup because the dashi contains a bit of tuna extract. Yet the amount is basically zero cholesterol.  

I'm wondering if I can't loosen the diet restrictions to allow trace, miniscule amounts of animal products. Can it really make a difference?

Anyway, that's where I am one year after my heart attack. In a good position, even a great position, but not exactly sure about a lot of things.

doug

douglerner is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 05-16-2013, 08:33 AM
 
La Grenouille's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Québec
Posts: 504

Why add fat from animals? Why not just go for vegetal fat, like olive oil?


Isabelle, aka La Grenouille
My blog (in French): L’herbivore — http://lherbivore.ca
La Grenouille is offline  
#3 Old 05-16-2013, 08:37 AM
Veggie Regular
 
runnerveggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,862
Hi Doug,

First of all, congratulations on your very good test results. I know you are disappointed by the lack of improvement in your coronary artery disease, but the current goal of treatment is to stop or slow progression of the disease, which it seems you have achieved.

The real problem here is unrealistic claims by a few vegan celebrity doctors. The scientific evidence for "reversal" is extremely limited. If there really were convincing proof for a dietary "cure" for heart disease, astute doctors who keep up on the current research and organizations like the American Heart Association would be recommending a vegan no-oil diet. It just isn't the case.

I agree with your doctor that an extremely strict diet is not necessary going forward. There is not even convincing scientific evidence to say that a vegan diet is healthier than a flexitarian diet (say, a couple servings of meat per week and small amounts of eggs and dairy). However, I do hope you'll consider the impact your diet has on animals.

I would encourage you to consider incorporating small amounts of heart-healthy plant oils as well as nuts and seeds. These foods can actually have a beneficial effect on cholesterol and can help you feel more full and satisfied as well as adding great flavor to foods. For example, an olive oil and lemon juice dressing with a little salt and plenty of black pepper is much more fresh tasting than any bottled dressing. If you like a creamier dressing, there are recipes for tahini (sesame seed butter) dressings that are really good.

Regarding weight, getting into the normal range is not the end-all, be-all of good health. A recent study showed that overweight (BMI 25-30) people may live longer than normal weight individuals. I'm not trying to discourage you from your weight loss goals, but there is still a lot we don't understand about weight and health. The more important thing is to keep up healthy habits like eating a balanced diet with plenty of fruits and vegetables and exercising most days of the week.
VeganChick2202 likes this.
runnerveggie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 05-16-2013, 04:03 PM
Super Moderator
 
silva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 8,955

Are you following Dr. Caldwell Esselstyns diet? That is completely vegan--no dairy of any kind. 

I'd hardly call him a celebrity doctor. I've worked with a man who was very literally on his death bed- given last rites with the second bypass, several stents, type 2 diabetes, overweight, high cholesterol. His wife told there was nothing left, to prepare for the worst.

That was over five years ago. He's been mentored by Esselstyn, followed his diet to the letter, and has proven what had been a death sentence could, and has, been reversed.

After that second bypass, he decided to take things into his own hands. He started on the typical diet for heart patients, lost a lot of weight. Then learned of Dr. Esselstyns program-lost a lot more. Funny thing is that the same people scared he'd keel over in front of them complained of how skinny he'd become. Never mind the fact that he'd a smile he'd lost a long time ago.

He's armed with a Vitamix, drinks green smoothies twice a day, and is truly reborn.

 

It takes total commitment. Look at amazons reviews of the book, there are many people who testify they, or those they know, have had their lives saved.

There are all kinds of meet-ups for people following his program, and they too stay with it.

Hey, it's vegan. It helps people in more ways than health. This guy started it as a plant based diet. Now he's learned his heart is also vegan.

 

I don't know. If you're doing well without oils I think you stick to it. He certainly documents his work well. heart patients aren't the same physiology as the rest of us. Saying no oils for someone who's suffered a heart issue is much like saying no peanuts to someone allergic.

 

http://www.heartattackproof.com/resolving_cade.htm


Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
silva is offline  
#5 Old 05-16-2013, 04:08 PM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by La Grenouille View Post

Why add fat from animals? Why not just go for vegetal fat, like olive oil?


I wasn't thinking of necessarily adding fat from animals. I was thinking, if I added fat at all, it would be olive all. But olive oil is not allowed on the Ornish reversal program. I was never sure why.

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
#6 Old 05-16-2013, 04:12 PM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296

Runner Veggie,

 

I never understood why all oils (including olive all) and all seed butters are completely forbidden on the diet. As you can understand, I'm wary about experimenting with something that might be stopping the progression of heart disease. But it's not really clear to me that it is doing anything "special."

 

Your point that "The real problem here is unrealistic claims by a few vegan celebrity doctors. The scientific evidence for "reversal" is extremely limited. If there really were convincing proof for a dietary "cure" for heart disease, astute doctors who keep up on the current research and organizations like the American Heart Association would be recommending a vegan no-oil diet. It just isn't the case." is a good one.

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
#7 Old 05-16-2013, 04:20 PM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post

Are you following Dr. Caldwell Esselstyns diet? That is completely vegan--no dairy of any kind. 

I'd hardly call him a celebrity doctor. I've worked with a man who was very literally on his death bed- given last rites with the second bypass, several stents, type 2 diabetes, overweight, high cholesterol. His wife told there was nothing left, to prepare for the worst.

That was over five years ago. He's been mentored by Esselstyn, followed his diet to the letter, and has proven what had been a death sentence could, and has, been reversed.

After that second bypass, he decided to take things into his own hands. He started on the typical diet for heart patients, lost a lot of weight. Then learned of Dr. Esselstyns program-lost a lot more. Funny thing is that the same people scared he'd keel over in front of them complained of how skinny he'd become. Never mind the fact that he'd a smile he'd lost a long time ago.

He's armed with a Vitamix, drinks green smoothies twice a day, and is truly reborn.

 

It takes total commitment. Look at amazons reviews of the book, there are many people who testify they, or those they know, have had their lives saved.

There are all kinds of meet-ups for people following his program, and they too stay with it.

Hey, it's vegan. It helps people in more ways than health. This guy started it as a plant based diet. Now he's learned his heart is also vegan.

 

I don't know. If you're doing well without oils I think you stick to it. He certainly documents his work well. heart patients aren't the same physiology as the rest of us. Saying no oils for someone who's suffered a heart issue is much like saying no peanuts to someone allergic.

 

http://www.heartattackproof.com/resolving_cade.htm


I'm following Dean Ornish's heart disease reversal program, which is essentially the same thing as the Caldwell Esselstyn program. While Ornish allows a couple of minor exceptions to veganism (he allows some non-fat dairy and egg whites) I myself decided to go completely vegan. So my diet this past year has been completely vegan, no added oils, no nuts, no seeds or seed butter. 

Like I said, I've seen progression of plaque stopped. But according to the heart catheter results there was no "reversal" at all. In other words, no plaque "reduction" took place.

The doctor is still elated because everything looks fine, and none of the arteries he was worried about being contenders for the next blockage have any problems.

Still, there was none of the vaunted "reversal of plaque" taking place, which is what I was wondering about.

douglerner is offline  
#8 Old 05-16-2013, 04:29 PM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296

Looking over that article at

http://www.heartattackproof.com/resolving_cade.htm it seems that maybe 1 year isn't enough. Apparently even after 5 years there might not be actual reversal in many patients, and just vague reversal in some. So maybe I should just be happy with a halt in progression of the disease.

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
#9 Old 05-16-2013, 05:10 PM
Oryzatarian
 
Auxin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: USDA z7a
Posts: 1,359

Keep in mind that if the doctor is basing a 'lack of reversal' opinion on the images from the catheter he is only saying that there is a lack of dramatic reversal. Even a slight reversal in the plaque buildup, one which would need different instrumentation to measure with hard numbers, could significantly increase blood flow.

 

Given that you started with a progressing disease and not lots of intimate knowledge of living the reversal lifestyle you should be proud that you've halted progression and improved on other measures. smiley.gif

Auxin is offline  
#10 Old 05-16-2013, 05:23 PM
Super Moderator
 
silva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 8,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by douglerner View Post

Looking over that article at

http://www.heartattackproof.com/resolving_cade.htm it seems that maybe 1 year isn't enough. Apparently even after 5 years there might not be actual reversal in many patients, and just vague reversal in some. So maybe I should just be happy with a halt in progression of the disease.

 

doug

Well you look great, and sounds like you're feeling pretty well! 
 

I am confused about your statement of the reversal diet you're on allowing some non fat dairy. Is it not Esselstyns?


Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
silva is offline  
#11 Old 05-16-2013, 05:29 PM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auxin View Post

Keep in mind that if the doctor is basing a 'lack of reversal' opinion on the images from the catheter he is only saying that there is a lack of dramatic reversal. Even a slight reversal in the plaque buildup, one which would need different instrumentation to measure with hard numbers, could significantly increase blood flow.

 

Given that you started with a progressing disease and not lots of intimate knowledge of living the reversal lifestyle you should be proud that you've halted progression and improved on other measures. smiley.gif


Yes, I'm pleased with that.

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
#12 Old 05-16-2013, 05:32 PM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post

Well you look great, and sounds like you're feeling pretty well! 
 

I am confused about your statement of the reversal diet you're on allowing some non fat dairy. Is it not Esselstyns?


I'm on the Dean Ornish reversal diet: See "nutrition guidelines for reversing heart disease" at http://www.ornishspectrum.com/proven-program/nutrition/.

 

It's teensy tiny different from Esselstyn's. But the way I'm doing - by being completely vegan - I think they are the same.

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
#13 Old 12-24-2013, 08:44 PM
 
rsco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4
What are your grains like? Switch to 100% whole grains if you haven't already. That may get you off you weight loss plateau. Worked for me.
rsco is offline  
#14 Old 12-25-2013, 03:16 PM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsco View Post

What are your grains like? Switch to 100% whole grains if you haven't already. That may get you off you weight loss plateau. Worked for me.

 

I've tried both. It doesn't seem to make any difference as far as weight loss goes. But whole grains aren't tolerated as well by my body, so I feel more uncomfortable eating them (though they taste better). In any case, I've been stuck on a plateau forever and I'm beginning to wonder if there is something to carbs being too much a portion of my diet after all - with grains being the worst offender.

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
#15 Old 12-28-2013, 07:44 AM
 
JanuaryBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 24

I'm not familiar with the diet, but don't we need some fat (healthy fats) in our diet? does that mean you don't eat nuts either?  I don't know, anything so restrictive sounds suspect.  sometimes we need to eat more to lose weight... maybe adding some healthy fats and variety of foods will jump start your metabolism?

 

the same salad dressing everyday for a year sounds awful!!!!  well, actually a salad (even with different dressing) every day sounds awful to me!  though I have to admit, the raw veggies sounds really great, I'm not a raw veggie kinda girl but I know I need more raw!  I've bought a carrot ginger dressing from whole foods, which I think is fat free.  it's pretty good, they make it there.  maybe you can make some of your own too?  I found some recipes here http://www.lemondrop.com/2010/09/24/fat-free-dressing-recipes/

 

anyway, it sounds like you've accomplished a HUGE amount!!! and worked really hard.  CONGRATS!!! do you feel better?

JanuaryBlue is offline  
#16 Old 12-28-2013, 07:56 AM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296

Here is information on the diet:

 

http://www.ornishspectrum.com/proven-program/nutrition/

 

Click on the links for Nutritional Guidelines for Reversing Heart Disease.

 

Yes, you are correct that nuts are also not allowed. Besides, for weight loss, nuts have a huge number of calories!

 

Sorry, but I'm just plain not a believer in the "sometimes we need to eat more to lose weight" theory. I'm not eating anywhere near "starvation mode." Every time I try to eat more I simply gain more weight. It really is that simple, as far as calories are concerned.

 

I have found more non-oil dressings to choose from though, including a delicious ginger dressing, and yuzukosho (a Japanese citrus with black pepper). So I'm getting nice dressings variety. I really like the ginger dressing on raw baby carrots.

 

The diet doesn't *feel* restrictive really. Besides the heart and vein effects, oils are simply very high in calories. I get enough fat from the natural fats in the vegetables I eat. For example, edamame has fat in it.

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
#17 Old 12-28-2013, 11:42 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by douglerner View Post

For example, I know that even though I personally decided to go vegan, that is not required on the reversal program, since non-fat dairy products are allowed. What doesn't make sense to me is if those are allowed, why aren't miniscule amounts of other animal products with bare traces of cholesterol also allowed?
I don't think Ornish would suggest you need to exclude "miniscule amounts" of other animal products and his program has more animal products than just non-fat dairy. He is okay with egg whites and fish here and there. The point of the spectrum is that it isn't black and white, miniscule amounts are going to result in miniscule differences.

As far as the reversal, a big reversal in plagues in just one year isn't something the program promises, in fact it doesn't promise huge reductions in plagues at all. The people in the program, tracked for years, never had perfectly healthy allergies.....but they were able to slowly reduce their plagues over many years on the program. Also, stopping the progression of heart-disease is an impressive result in itself, there is currently no procedure or medicine that can do that.....just lifestyle changes.
logic is offline  
#18 Old 12-28-2013, 12:44 PM
Not such a Beginner ;)
 
LedBoots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by douglerner View Post

Looking over that article at

http://www.heartattackproof.com/resolving_cade.htm it seems that maybe 1 year isn't enough. Apparently even after 5 years there might not be actual reversal in many patients, and just vague reversal in some. So maybe I should just be happy with a halt in progression of the disease.

 

doug

Hi Doug, I guess I missed this thread originally. Those test results are fantastic! I agree that a yeast is not enough time to see visible reversal, but your EF going up so much certainly points to that.

Hope all is going well, you really have had remarkable commitment to your recovery. :-)
LedBoots is offline  
#19 Old 12-28-2013, 01:21 PM
 
rsco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4

Ornish's 'spectrum' broadens the appeal by watering down the requirements to make it acceptable to more people (and sell more books) than the strict approach espoused by Esselstyn.  Ornish's results are not as good in terms of longevity, lipid reduction, plaque reversal, and weight reduction as compared to Esselstyn which is no animal products of any kind, no oil, no refined grains or sugars, no nuts (except minimal walnuts) and minimal avocado.  Even fish oil is out (use ground flax instead for omega 3s).  You can see corroborating results from other studies like AHS-2 where vegans are shown to live longer than lacto-ovo-vegetarians, who live longer than pescatarians, who live longer than meat eaters. 

 

So if you want a LITTLE heart disease, stroke, and cancer, Ornish is right for you. If you want NONE of the above, then go with Esselstyn.  Do you want to be healthier, or absolutely healthy?  I started with Esselstyn first to see how good I could get (cholesterol down from 207 to 148, and LDL down from 116 to 80, with no medications).  I lost 15 lb without trying and haven't started an exercise routine yet.  I thought about slacking a little but then I realized, hey I actually like my new food!  It's easy, cheap, and tastes great. I find meat and oils slimy and bland now.  I don't get tired or headaches as much.  I am 2 years into it and probably still cleaning up decades of damage to my arteries.  In a few years maybe I will be 19 again! 

 

By the way, fats are ok so long as they are the minimal natural fats found in whole fruits, vegetables, grains, and legumes.  You get plenty from garbanzo beans and soy and walnuts and a few other sources.  I eat out so there are bound to be traces of oil and animal products in there which doesn't seem to matter as long as you steer free of whole servings of the obvious culprits.  Now and then I lose focus and have a square of chocolate or a bite of salmon.  It's all dose related, so a few grams per month of anything probably won't show up. 

rsco is offline  
#20 Old 12-28-2013, 05:51 PM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post


I don't think Ornish would suggest you need to exclude "miniscule amounts" of other animal products and his program has more animal products than just non-fat dairy. He is okay with egg whites and fish here and there. The point of the spectrum is that it isn't black and white, miniscule amounts are going to result in miniscule differences.

As far as the reversal, a big reversal in plagues in just one year isn't something the program promises, in fact it doesn't promise huge reductions in plagues at all. The people in the program, tracked for years, never had perfectly healthy allergies.....but they were able to slowly reduce their plagues over many years on the program. Also, stopping the progression of heart-disease is an impressive result in itself, there is currently no procedure or medicine that can do that.....just lifestyle changes.

 

I can't disagree with any of the points you made. :)

 

Anyway, still sticking with it.

 

Thanks,

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
#21 Old 12-28-2013, 05:57 PM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsco View Post
 

Ornish's 'spectrum' broadens the appeal by watering down the requirements to make it acceptable to more people (and sell more books) than the strict approach espoused by Esselstyn.  Ornish's results are not as good in terms of longevity, lipid reduction, plaque reversal, and weight reduction as compared to Esselstyn which is no animal products of any kind, no oil, no refined grains or sugars, no nuts (except minimal walnuts) and minimal avocado.  Even fish oil is out (use ground flax instead for omega 3s).  You can see corroborating results from other studies like AHS-2 where vegans are shown to live longer than lacto-ovo-vegetarians, who live longer than pescatarians, who live longer than meat eaters. 

 

So if you want a LITTLE heart disease, stroke, and cancer, Ornish is right for you. If you want NONE of the above, then go with Esselstyn.  Do you want to be healthier, or absolutely healthy?  I started with Esselstyn first to see how good I could get (cholesterol down from 207 to 148, and LDL down from 116 to 80, with no medications).  I lost 15 lb without trying and haven't started an exercise routine yet.  I thought about slacking a little but then I realized, hey I actually like my new food!  It's easy, cheap, and tastes great. I find meat and oils slimy and bland now.  I don't get tired or headaches as much.  I am 2 years into it and probably still cleaning up decades of damage to my arteries.  In a few years maybe I will be 19 again! 

 

By the way, fats are ok so long as they are the minimal natural fats found in whole fruits, vegetables, grains, and legumes.  You get plenty from garbanzo beans and soy and walnuts and a few other sources.  I eat out so there are bound to be traces of oil and animal products in there which doesn't seem to matter as long as you steer free of whole servings of the obvious culprits.  Now and then I lose focus and have a square of chocolate or a bite of salmon.  It's all dose related, so a few grams per month of anything probably won't show up. 

 

I really don't think there is any difference between the way I am following Ornish and Esselstyn. In some examples you gave, Ornish is actually stricter. He doesn't allow any nuts or avocado. I don't think it is really fair to say, "If you want a little heart disease, stroke and cancer, Ornish is right for you." Where are the studies to back that up? My doctors are amazed with my health condition after being on Ornish. I can't believe it would be even one iota of measurable difference if I were on Esselstyn. There is nothing to support that.

 

Some things are impossible for me to do on Esselstyn - like loads of kale, which I can't find in any of my local supermarkets. Also I heard he sort of rigs his numbers by throwing out data. For example, if a person stays on his plan 100% perfectly for 5 years then has one off-plan meal and later has a heart attack he blames it on that one meal in 5 years. That makes no scientific sense.

 

Anyway, Ornish and Esselstyn have appeared together in interviews and both admit their differences are minor. If they can get along, surely we can. :)

 

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
#22 Old 12-28-2013, 06:01 PM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post


Hi Doug, I guess I missed this thread originally. Those test results are fantastic! I agree that a yeast is not enough time to see visible reversal, but your EF going up so much certainly points to that.

Hope all is going well, you really have had remarkable commitment to your recovery. :-)

 

Yes, the EF is one actual, concrete, positive heart-related measure I can definitely point to. Going from a bit under 50% to a high-normal 67% shows that I'm doing something right.

 

Thanks,

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
#23 Old 12-28-2013, 06:12 PM
Not such a Beginner ;)
 
LedBoots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,396
I don't think the ejection fraction's importance can be overstated. 67% is associated with a pretty good pumping heart.

I really enjoy following your progress. smiley.gif
LedBoots is offline  
#24 Old 12-28-2013, 07:02 PM
 
BuddhistLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northeast Florida, USA
Posts: 70

I'm just joined the boards about a month ago and am just seeing your post.  Those are GREAT numbers! Especially your EF.  I hope you are getting over your plateau.  Congratulations on being the one saving your own life.  

BuddhistLady is offline  
#25 Old 12-29-2013, 08:23 AM
 
PuppetBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 117
I am also just seeing this thread -- congrats on your great progress and the decision to stick with it!
PuppetBoy is offline  
#26 Old 04-18-2014, 02:54 PM
 
mccartne2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 2

Doug, good to see someone else doing the vegan no oil reversal diet. I have been on it for a year. LDL dropped to 22 and I got off Lipitor. My total cholesterol in 83.have lost about 70 lbs  but I still had to have two stents put in in Dec of 2013 as I was 95% blocked and started having exertional angina.although I think I am reversing my heart disease with the diet I don't think it was happening fast enough to avoid the stents, Dr. Esselstyn I believe in his book said it can take up to three years. let's  stay in touch if  you like as a little encouragement goes a long way. I am 67 and a retired RN. Mike

mccartne2000 is offline  
#27 Old 04-18-2014, 05:32 PM
Veggie Regular
 
douglerner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 296

Hi. I'm actually pretty frustrated. The first year went great, I lost over 70 lb, and then got down to 89 kg. And my HbA1c returned to normal without medication.

 

But then my weight plateaued for almost a year, and over the past few months I've been gaining weight! And my last blood test showed my HbA1c had gone up to 6.7. :(

 

This is day 702 and I've rebounded to over 97 kg and I'm deathly afraid of getting over 100 kg again. Obviously I'm eating too much - almost certainly because of grains like rice, which are very high caloric. And it acts like appetite triggers. I have seriously been considering going off the diet and low carbing (with lean foods only) just to get my appetite under control. To me, the main thing now is to avoid a rebound, which has happened so often in the past.

 

I have never experienced angina though, even though I started with a 100% blockage and one stent put in. My original symptoms were different. And my last heart catheter check last fall was good and they reduced my medication. I do have to take one statin though. The diet alone was not enough to achieve my low LDL of about 70.

 

Mainly now I'm concerned about my weight. I'm trying the Weight Watchers zero points lists for now, which happens to be vegan, but also eliminates a few things which are on the Ornish list: rice, corn, other grains. The main thing for me now is I have to reduce calories. I'm obviously eating too many. And just being vegan + non oil + no nuts isn't enough anymore to control calories. It's too easy to overeat.

 

doug

douglerner is offline  
#28 Old 04-18-2014, 05:47 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic View Post


I don't think Ornish would suggest you need to exclude "miniscule amounts" of other animal products and his program has more animal products than just non-fat dairy. He is okay with egg whites and fish here and there. The point of the spectrum is that it isn't black and white, miniscule amounts are going to result in miniscule differences.

doug is on the reversal diet which is much stricter that the ornish spectrum diet.

unethicalvegan is offline  
#29 Old 04-18-2014, 05:49 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post

I don't think the ejection fraction's importance can be overstated. 67% is associated with a pretty good pumping heart.

I really enjoy following your progress. smiley.gif

 

 

ditto. and thanks for updating us doug.

unethicalvegan is offline  
#30 Old 04-18-2014, 06:05 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: banned
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsco View Post
 

 You can see corroborating results from other studies like AHS-2 where vegans are shown to live longer than lacto-ovo-vegetarians, who live longer than pescatarians, who live longer than meat eaters. 

 

This is incorrect:

 

Quote:
The adjusted HR for all-cause mortality in vegans was 0.85 (95% CI, 0.73-1.01); in lacto-ovo-vegetarians, 0.91 (95% CI, 0.82-1.00); in pesco-vegetarians, 0.81 (95% CI, 0.69-0.94); and in semi-vegetarians, 0.92 (95% CI, 0.75-1.13) compared with nonvegetarians.

 

 

Moreover, the adjusted hazard ratio for vegan women was 0.97 raising the possibility that the low ratio for vegan men was some sort of low "n" artifact.

 

I should note that I don't think the typical western vegan diet is a particularly healthy diet.

unethicalvegan is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off