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#61 Old 03-04-2013, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by River View Post

Can we go one pro-childfree thread without the pro-childbearing women getting offended?

Why is that okay when anti-child bearing women aren't allowed to go into pro-child threads and tell them they're offended....
First, this thread is not "pro-child free lifestyles." The OP specifically asked about the relationship between veganism and child free lifestyles. Those of us who don't think there's a connection should be allowed to chime in for the same reason we're allowed to chime in on threads that ask if vegans should be prolife.

I'm not "pro-child bearing". I'm an adoptive mom who is allowed to be offended by how common it is for people to oversimplify adoption. I'm allowed to be offended by how people rarely see adoption as a first choice when considering having children. I'm allowed to be offended by people who want to stifle my sons bio mom's reproductive rights. I'm allowed to be hurt by all the people claiming my son should not have been born. I'm allowed to be offended by people who think its inevitable that his life will be full of suffering and that he won't stay vegan. I'm allowed to be offended by people who claim that parenting is a selfish job.

Like I said, there are two camps:
Child free
Parent

It's that simple. Making exceptions for adoption IS offensive. It's treating adoptive families as second-class.
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#62 Old 03-04-2013, 07:32 AM
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I was an adamant child-free vegan at 21. I'm now a mother of 2 at age 30. Part of me thinks that the vegan crowd tends to be younger, more urban, more focused on issues/lifestyel that are't as easy with children involved (college, for one). There are obviously exceptions as evidenced in this thread, but I changed as I aged. Some vegans are also trendy (let's be realistic here) and sometimes rebel againt the norm for the sake of rebellion. It can be fleeting.

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#63 Old 03-04-2013, 07:35 AM
 
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No kids here but don't see a problem with parenting in a responsible manner.

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#64 Old 03-04-2013, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by alis View Post

I was an adamant child-free vegan at 21. I'm now a mother of 2 at age 30. Part of me thinks that the vegan crowd tends to be younger, more urban, more focused on issues/lifestyel that are't as easy with children involved (college, for one). There are obviously exceptions as evidenced in this thread, but I changed as I aged. Some vegans are also trendy (let's be realistic here) and sometimes rebel againt the norm for the sake of rebellion. It can be fleeting.

I guess you are describing the hipster crowd. While I agree that many 21 year olds dont know what they want (I thought I wanted kids at 21!) even in our 30's we are still often told that we will "change our minds". In our case that is much less likely and gets quite annoying. My husband and I have grown accustom to a certain lifestyle that includes lots of travel, financial freedom, personal growth, and a focus on our own relationship as a couple. We don't want kids more for these reasons than the others cited (population growth, etc.) although the green aspects of it are a bonus. But you are certainly right that there are those younger ones who are just trying out the vegan lifestyle and are not really all that committed. Fortunately, for people in our age group, we don't have to worry about that too much. I am happy to have mature, vegan, child-free friends.  

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#65 Old 03-04-2013, 08:36 AM
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I do see a connection between being vegan and not wanting kids. As vegans we are used to being different and going against norms, as child-free we are also used to being different and going against norms.

This is kinda off topic but there also seems to be a large number of atheist and non-religious vegans, I see the connection of being different and going against norms too.

It took a lot of courage and self reflection for me to declare my want for a child-free life. I still get responses from people that I will change my mind one day, and to those I reply that I'd rather change my mind about not wanting kids than change my mind about wanting them after I already had them.
I have had parents admit that they wish they would have waited, or not had so many, or none at all....that to me seems worse than wanting a kid after it's too late.
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#66 Old 03-04-2013, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by alis View Post

I was an adamant child-free vegan at 21. I'm now a mother of 2 at age 30. Part of me thinks that the vegan crowd tends to be younger, more urban, more focused on issues/lifestyel that are't as easy with children involved (college, for one). There are obviously exceptions as evidenced in this thread, but I changed as I aged. Some vegans are also trendy (let's be realistic here) and sometimes rebel againt the norm for the sake of rebellion. It can be fleeting.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that is what I was trying to respond to in a non sensical manner earlier in this thread wink3.gif. I don't see a relationship between being child free and vegan. Like I mentioned earlier- I know very many vegan parents in my city, it seems to be on the rise. We hang out, our kids hang out, we have potlucks and get togethers. But that is just how I perceive it, because its the world surrounding me. Maybe most of you are seeing a younger, urban, trendy group of vegans who are around you. Who happen to be child free because they are younger, tend to live in cities and maybe are career focused. Maybe it all comes down to demographics and perception. There are still lots of us old nillys who settle down and decide to have kids for one reason or another who happen to be vegan too.

 

I don't get offended that others don't want to have kids. I would hope nobody would get offended because I decided to have kids. I do see on both sides a huge animosity between the two groups. I visited a child-free forum once before (never posted or anything) but I was curious what they were all saying. Because I spend my days scrubbing poop out of things and getting climbed on my by loud children, I imagined the group to be a bunch of happy, free people who were able to purchase white couches and travel to Jamaica whenever they wanted to. Instead I found them to be pretty obnoxious and defensive about being "child free." They filled their forum with hatred of "breeders" and "obnoxious disgusting children" and constantly told stories of their interactions with parents and children to affirm their decision to be child free. It was the least positive, hateful place I have ever visited online!

 

I'm not accusing anyone on here of being obnoxious- this is pretty tame compared to that group that I saw. Like I said earlier, we may never understand each other, but we shouldn't be separating ourselves. I think a vegan is a vegan and can come in all shapes and forms.
 


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#67 Old 03-04-2013, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

First, this thread is not "pro-child free lifestyles." The OP specifically asked about the relationship between veganism and child free lifestyles. Those of us who don't think there's a connection should be allowed to chime in for the same reason we're allowed to chime in on threads that ask if vegans should be prolife.

I'm not "pro-child bearing". I'm an adoptive mom who is allowed to be offended by how common it is for people to oversimplify adoption. I'm allowed to be offended by how people rarely see adoption as a first choice when considering having children. I'm allowed to be offended by people who want to stifle my sons bio mom's reproductive rights. I'm allowed to be hurt by all the people claiming my son should not have been born. I'm allowed to be offended by people who think its inevitable that his life will be full of suffering and that he won't stay vegan. I'm allowed to be offended by people who claim that parenting is a selfish job.

Like I said, there are two camps:
Child free
Parent

It's that simple. Making exceptions for adoption IS offensive. It's treating adoptive families as second-class.

Just because you make your opinion in an authoratative tone doesn't make it right, it makes it an opinion. You're allowed to feel anything you want, it doesn't make you right, it makes you emotional (not a bad thing). Just like my opinions don't make me right. I would just like ONE prochildfree thread to go by with out all this.

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#68 Old 03-04-2013, 12:41 PM
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I don't have kids yet but plan to later; my husband and I have agreed that we probably want to create a family through a mixture of adopted and biological children. That's just our preference. Nothing to do with one being better than the other - either way, you're a parent. That's just what we think we'll want to do.

However, I think it's great some people are staying away from the societal pressure to have kids and are choosing to be child-free. I realize a lot of people are pushy about it - the "oh you'll change your mind once you have a kid" thing. Seriously? That's ridiculous and condescending.

Anyway, maybe we can all find ways to articulate our beliefs without being rude...? Yes, everyone's entitled to their opinions and it's nice to have a place to say them uncensored, but we can also have thoughtful discussions about the differences, no?
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#69 Old 03-04-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by alis View Post

I was an adamant child-free vegan at 21. I'm now a mother of 2 at age 30. Part of me thinks that the vegan crowd tends to be younger, more urban, more focused on issues/lifestyel that are't as easy with children involved (college, for one). There are obviously exceptions as evidenced in this thread, but I changed as I aged. Some vegans are also trendy (let's be realistic here) and sometimes rebel againt the norm for the sake of rebellion. It can be fleeting.

 

And some of us made the decision in our teens and stuck with it through the years. "You'll change your mind" is annoying to hear nonstop.

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#70 Old 03-04-2013, 02:59 PM
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I never told anyone that they would change their minds. I said I did, as my idea of parenthood changed from 21 to 30. And I don't think I'm an outrageous exception.

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#71 Old 03-04-2013, 03:46 PM
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What about people who change their minds in the opposite direction? Have the kid and then realize it wasn't for them? It happens more often than people think, it's just not okay to admit it. Yet I would never imply to a parent-to-be that they might change their mind, that they're too young to know for sure.

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#72 Old 03-04-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mollycakes View Post

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that is what I was trying to respond to in a non sensical manner earlier in this thread wink3.gif. I don't see a relationship between being child free and vegan. Like I mentioned earlier- I know very many vegan parents in my city, it seems to be on the rise. We hang out, our kids hang out, we have potlucks and get togethers. But that is just how I perceive it, because its the world surrounding me. Maybe most of you are seeing a younger, urban, trendy group of vegans who are around you. Who happen to be child free because they are younger, tend to live in cities and maybe are career focused. Maybe it all comes down to demographics and perception. There are still lots of us old nillys who settle down and decide to have kids for one reason or another who happen to be vegan too.

 

I don't get offended that others don't want to have kids. I would hope nobody would get offended because I decided to have kids. I do see on both sides a huge animosity between the two groups. I visited a child-free forum once before (never posted or anything) but I was curious what they were all saying. Because I spend my days scrubbing poop out of things and getting climbed on my by loud children, I imagined the group to be a bunch of happy, free people who were able to purchase white couches and travel to Jamaica whenever they wanted to. Instead I found them to be pretty obnoxious and defensive about being "child free." They filled their forum with hatred of "breeders" and "obnoxious disgusting children" and constantly told stories of their interactions with parents and children to affirm their decision to be child free. It was the least positive, hateful place I have ever visited online!

 

I'm not accusing anyone on here of being obnoxious- this is pretty tame compared to that group that I saw. Like I said earlier, we may never understand each other, but we shouldn't be separating ourselves. I think a vegan is a vegan and can come in all shapes and forms.
 

I don't feel this way. I feel like I understand the desire to have children perfectly. I think child-free people are often stereotyped as being "child haters". In fact, I would say the majority of DINKs (Double income no kids) really like kids and like being aunts/uncles, etc. I make my living working with kids (10+ years now) and am considering getting my PhD in Developmental Psychology. Just because I like kids and can relate well to them, does not mean I want my own...and likewise not wanting my own, does not mean I automatically hate children. I assure you that there are plenty of forums with happy, child-free couples with white couches who get to travel the world and don't hate children! Just as there are forums for child-haters there are also forums for parents who despise being parents...I however, wouldn't go as far to say that all parents are miserable and uhappy. It is a lifestyle choice... but I don't think it's so different where I would go as far to say that "we may never understand each other".

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#73 Old 03-04-2013, 03:55 PM
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I know that it happens that some parents regret having children, I had severe postnatal depression after my first. I was one of those. I'm sorry if I gave off the impression I was telling people "you'll change" because I was NOT telling anyone here that. Why would I? I was the person who didn't want kids, I *know* what it feels like to be told that, and I didn't like it either.

 

But a lot of behaviours - moral convinctions - attitudes towards xyz in life - which go 'against the grain' of society, tend to be a fleeting part of youth, rather than being what that person is and always will be for the rest of their life. For some, it IS who they are. But for many, it is not. Whether that is being child-free, vegan, vegetarian, free loving, goth, liberal/democrat, student's rights protestors, whatever.... 

 

To me, that is the connection between veganism and a child-free lifestyle. Again, that's just my opinion.

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#74 Old 03-04-2013, 04:09 PM
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Well maybe I'm just a bit touchy on the subject. I was told for YEARS I'd change my mind on kids, I'd stop the veg*n thing when I "grew up", etc, etc. I think finally after all these years people have realized I was serious about both. :p

 

I would never buy a white couch though. I'm too messy myself for that. And then there's the critters . . .

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#75 Old 03-04-2013, 05:12 PM
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River and everyone, you are right, I shouldn't have entered this thread. I have not participated in either pro- or anti- having children threads on any forums besides this one, and didn't know the etiquette. I guess it is like omnis entering a vegan forum.

I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't have entered this thread, nor do I think that there's some kind of etiquette.

---

It just bothers me with the common responses I see, and are shown in this thread to those without children (whether by choice or not). Those being:

"You'll change your mind" (or something about how when they were younger they didn't either, but they changed their mind just like you might too)
"It's a fad of the youth/inexperienced"
"There is this site/group/etc that I was at and all the child-free people were rude and condescending"
"It's sad that you don't want children"

Or the ones not mentioned:
"Who will take care of you when you're old?"
"You'll miss out on so much happiness" Or something about how seeing the world through a youth's eyes is great (as if the only way to do that is to have children).
"It's selfish to not have children"
"People without children hate children"

Probably some more that I can't remember.

It's as offensive as if someone without children were to tell someone with children:
"Oh, you'll change your mind about wanting children." (Basically that they'll regret their choice, or to imply that they might)
"Having children is just being like everyone else and not thinking for yourself" (the general gist of claiming it to be a fad)
"There was this group/site/etc for parents that I went to and all the people were rude and condescending trying to justify their choices."
"It's sad that you want children (or have children)"

---
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

Like I said, there are two camps:
Child free
Parent

It's that simple. Making exceptions for adoption IS offensive. It's treating adoptive families as second-class.

No it's not. Where do the people who want/wanted children by don't/didn't have them fall into?

Child free is typically people who can or could have children but chose not to. Parents have children (biological or not).

I guess the people wanting children but cannot or don't (for whatever reason) don't count to you?

As to the adoption, I don't think it treats adoptive families as second class, however, I can understand how it may cause issues to the children, if someone gives reasons why they don't want children then close by saying that if they want children they'll adopt. I don't think that saying "If I want children, I'll adopt" in any way treats adoptive families as second class though.

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#76 Old 03-04-2013, 05:18 PM
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To answer the OP, I'm in my mid 30s. I don't have children. I suppose when I was younger I didn't want children, but it's always been expected or just assumed as a given. The common statement I often heard "well, when you have children". Then at some point I kind of wanted children (friends and family had them and there was a lot of social pressure).

At some point I realized I'm just fine not having children.

I'm don't really think there's any connection between veganism and children in general. However I do think there are overlapping reasons why people choose to be vegan as well as choose to be childfree.

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#77 Old 03-04-2013, 06:14 PM
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I am upset by people who think it is a right to reproduce without any consideration for the new life that would be created. Others would be involved in reproduction and if they are to be created we should ensure that we can provide them with happy and fulfilling lives (or at least that it is likely to the best of our knowledge). 

We would not go up to a person and tell them they should not have been born. That would be cruel and useless. However, when it comes to the future we should try to ensure that if people want to have children, the children will be taken care of. If people are offended by that I am not too concerned about it. I would certainly place avoiding unnecessary suffering above people's misguided sensitivities. 

 

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I'm allowed to be offended by people who want to stifle my sons bio mom's reproductive rights. I'm allowed to be hurt by all the people claiming my son should not have been born. 

 

I have also noticed that vegans tend to be extraordinary in different ways :)

 

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I do see a connection between being vegan and not wanting kids. As vegans we are used to being different and going against norms, as child-free we are also used to being different and going against norms.

This is kinda off topic but there also seems to be a large number of atheist and non-religious vegans, I see the connection of being different and going against norms too.
 

 

That's a good one. I am surprised on one has mentioned that one yet. I say that's what cyanide is for. Or if one is a romantic, hemlock or a dagger :)

 

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"Who will take care of you when you're old?"
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#78 Old 03-04-2013, 06:26 PM
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I would just like ONE prochildfree thread to go by with out all this.
Then start one.
In your first post make it clear you don't want a debate or discussion on being child-free and you don't want any criticism of anything the child-free people post regardless of how offensive they may be.
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#79 Old 03-04-2013, 06:26 PM
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Not to start a firestorm, but I thought this was pertinent.

"Forget the debt ceiling. Forget the fiscal cliff, the sequestration cliff and the entitlement cliff.

Those are all just symptoms. What America really faces is a demographic cliff: The root cause of most of our problems is our declining fertility rate.

The fertility rate is the number of children an average woman bears over the course of her life. The replacement rate is 2.1. If the average woman has more children than that, population grows. Fewer, and it contracts. Today, America's total fertility rate is 1.93, according to the latest figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; it hasn't been above the replacement rate in a sustained way since the early 1970s.

The nation's falling fertility rate underlies many of our most difficult problems. Once a country's fertility rate falls consistently below replacement, its age profile begins to shift. You get more old people than young people. And eventually, as the bloated cohort of old people dies off, population begins to contract.

This dual problem—a population that is disproportionately old and shrinking overall—has enormous economic, political and cultural consequences. For two generations we've been lectured about the dangers of overpopulation. But the conventional wisdom on this issue is wrong, twice.

First, global population growth is slowing to a halt and will begin to shrink within 60 years. Second, as the work of economists Esther Boserups and Julian Simon demonstrated, growing populations lead to increased innovation and conservation. Think about it: Since 1970, commodity prices have continued to fall and America's environment has become much cleaner and more sustainable—even though our population has increased by more than 50%. Human ingenuity, it turns out, is the most precious resource." Much more here http://m.wsj.com/articles/a/SB10001424127887323375204578270053387770718?mg=reno64-wsj
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#80 Old 03-04-2013, 06:41 PM
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I am no economist. Perhaps a young population is good for the economy. But we cannot increase our population indefinitely just to experience a temporary economic boom. It has to stop at some point so why not stop it here. If human ingenuity leads to less pollution then human ingenuity in conjunction with a smaller population should lead to even less pollution. 

But anyway, I am under the impression that the worst part of having an aging population is having to pay for old people's pensions and health care. I say put up with temporary hardship rather than compound the problem only to face it at a later date. 

 

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Not to start a firestorm, but I thought this was pertinent.

"Forget the debt ceiling. Forget the fiscal cliff, the sequestration cliff and the entitlement cliff.

Those are all just symptoms. What America really faces is a demographic cliff: The root cause of most of our problems is our declining fertility rate.

The fertility rate is the number of children an average woman bears over the course of her life. The replacement rate is 2.1. If the average woman has more children than that, population grows. Fewer, and it contracts. Today, America's total fertility rate is 1.93, according to the latest figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; it hasn't been above the replacement rate in a sustained way since the early 1970s.

The nation's falling fertility rate underlies many of our most difficult problems. Once a country's fertility rate falls consistently below replacement, its age profile begins to shift. You get more old people than young people. And eventually, as the bloated cohort of old people dies off, population begins to contract.

This dual problem—a population that is disproportionately old and shrinking overall—has enormous economic, political and cultural consequences. For two generations we've been lectured about the dangers of overpopulation. But the conventional wisdom on this issue is wrong, twice.

First, global population growth is slowing to a halt and will begin to shrink within 60 years. Second, as the work of economists Esther Boserups and Julian Simon demonstrated, growing populations lead to increased innovation and conservation. Think about it: Since 1970, commodity prices have continued to fall and America's environment has become much cleaner and more sustainable—even though our population has increased by more than 50%. Human ingenuity, it turns out, is the most precious resource." Much more here http://m.wsj.com/articles/a/SB10001424127887323375204578270053387770718?mg=reno64-wsj
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#81 Old 03-04-2013, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post

Not to start a firestorm, but I thought this was pertinent.

"Forget the debt ceiling. Forget the fiscal cliff, the sequestration cliff and the entitlement cliff.

Those are all just symptoms. What America really faces is a demographic cliff: The root cause of most of our problems is our declining fertility rate.

The fertility rate is the number of children an average woman bears over the course of her life. The replacement rate is 2.1. If the average woman has more children than that, population grows. Fewer, and it contracts. Today, America's total fertility rate is 1.93, according to the latest figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; it hasn't been above the replacement rate in a sustained way since the early 1970s.

The nation's falling fertility rate underlies many of our most difficult problems. Once a country's fertility rate falls consistently below replacement, its age profile begins to shift. You get more old people than young people. And eventually, as the bloated cohort of old people dies off, population begins to contract.

This dual problem—a population that is disproportionately old and shrinking overall—has enormous economic, political and cultural consequences. For two generations we've been lectured about the dangers of overpopulation. But the conventional wisdom on this issue is wrong, twice.

First, global population growth is slowing to a halt and will begin to shrink within 60 years. Second, as the work of economists Esther Boserups and Julian Simon demonstrated, growing populations lead to increased innovation and conservation. Think about it: Since 1970, commodity prices have continued to fall and America's environment has become much cleaner and more sustainable—even though our population has increased by more than 50%. Human ingenuity, it turns out, is the most precious resource." Much more here http://m.wsj.com/articles/a/SB10001424127887323375204578270053387770718?mg=reno64-wsj

And if I have a kid or three I'm less likely to get breast cancer or ovarian cancer.

 

All are selfish reasons to have a child that you do not want.

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#82 Old 03-04-2013, 08:49 PM
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I guess the people wanting children but cannot or don't (for whatever reason) don't count to you?
Ok I'll clarify:

Camp 1: people who want or say they want to be child-free

Camp 2: People who are, want to be, or say they want to be parents.

I'll grant your "want kids but cant have them" but the reality is nearly anyone could be a parent if they want to, just like nearly anyone who doesnt want kids can prevent becoming a parent.

For the ones who want to parent, they can. They'd just have to be willing to be a parent to a child that's not biologically related to them and in some cases, a child who is not an infant. On an adoption forum I'm on there's even a thread about all the people who say, "We wanted to adopt but couldn't because [fill in illogical excuse]." Lots of people just make assumptions about it and don't even try. Worse, they think strangers who happen to be conspicuous adoptive families want to hear about myths about adoption and excuses for why its ok to just ignore the millions of children worldwide who need adoptive families.

There are also a multitude of fertility treatment options, some of which are very inexpensive and simple. So, if someone who wants to be a parent and says they "can't" what they really mean is that they can't be the kind of parent they want to be.
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#83 Old 03-05-2013, 05:07 AM
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You are putting words in people's mouths - maybe you've been told "you'll change your mind" so much that someone cannot even express that they personally changed their minds without thinking they are lecturing you.

 

And yes, a lot of child-free lifestyles can be sourced to youth, rather than a lifelong desire to be childfree. So can veganism. Do you truly believe that each and every 19 year old urban vegan is going to be a 30,50,70+ year old vegan? That would be nice. But I think you'd be fibbing to yourself. Same with the child-free. Same with anyone else with an "alternative" lifestyle choice to the grain of society. That's life. That was how I found a connection between veganism and being childless. Again, my personal opinion about human behaviour in general.

 

Please dont' confuse me as someone who wants to push parenthood on people who don't want it or even who aren't 100% sure... because my first child was born with a birth injury and severe health issues, subsequently I had severe postnatal depression for over a year and I know what it feels like to regret becoming a mother. We're long past this now, but believe me, I'm actually quite understanding of those who choose to be child-free after that experience.

 

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It just bothers me with the common responses I see, and are shown in this thread to those without children (whether by choice or not). Those being:

"You'll change your mind" (or something about how when they were younger they didn't either, but they changed their mind just like you might too)
"It's a fad of the youth/inexperienced"
 
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#84 Old 03-05-2013, 05:15 AM
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Not to start a firestorm, but I thought this was pertinent.

"Forget the debt ceiling. Forget the fiscal cliff, the sequestration cliff and the entitlement cliff.

Those are all just symptoms. What America really faces is a demographic cliff: The root cause of most of our problems is our declining fertility rate.

The fertility rate is the number of children an average woman bears over the course of her life. The replacement rate is 2.1. If the average woman has more children than that, population grows. Fewer, and it contracts. Today, America's total fertility rate is 1.93, according to the latest figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; it hasn't been above the replacement rate in a sustained way since the early 1970s.

The nation's falling fertility rate underlies many of our most difficult problems. Once a country's fertility rate falls consistently below replacement, its age profile begins to shift. You get more old people than young people. And eventually, as the bloated cohort of old people dies off, population begins to contract.

This dual problem—a population that is disproportionately old and shrinking overall—has enormous economic, political and cultural consequences. For two generations we've been lectured about the dangers of overpopulation. But the conventional wisdom on this issue is wrong, twice.

First, global population growth is slowing to a halt and will begin to shrink within 60 years. Second, as the work of economists Esther Boserups and Julian Simon demonstrated, growing populations lead to increased innovation and conservation. Think about it: Since 1970, commodity prices have continued to fall and America's environment has become much cleaner and more sustainable—even though our population has increased by more than 50%. Human ingenuity, it turns out, is the most precious resource." Much more here http://m.wsj.com/articles/a/SB10001424127887323375204578270053387770718?mg=reno64-wsj

And if I have a kid or three I'm less likely to get breast cancer or ovarian cancer.

 

All are selfish reasons to have a child that you do not want.

I posted that to address the overpopulation issue that had been raised earlier to shame parents. Of course it doesn't mean everyone should have children for that reason, but it does mean that calling parents selfish is not altogether true.
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#85 Old 03-05-2013, 07:29 AM
 
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I raised three vegetarian children and all are still lacto ovo vegetarians. I recently became completely vegan. While I agree that more people should go childless, it is usually the more intelligent highly educated who do so. The undereducated, meaters who happen to be cultists have plenty.  We might wind up like idiocracy, the movie where only idiots have children.

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#86 Old 03-05-2013, 08:34 AM
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Who knows what the statistics would tell us, but from personal experience I haven't seen a link between veganism and childfreedom. Most childfree people I know aren't vegan, and most vegans I've met aren't childfree. IRL, DH and I are the only childfree vegans we know.

 

As for adoptive parents being equivalent to biological ones, I don't agree. Adoptive parents who give a home to a child who needs one are doing the community a favor, not just replicating their DNA. Adoption is altruistic. I have heard a million bio parents tell me how 'it's different when they're your own' AKA they don't care about kids who aren't related to them - I don't consider that at all equal to people who open their lives to unrelated children. Not that I'll ever adopt, but I certainly admire adoptive parents more than biological ones.

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#87 Old 03-05-2013, 10:02 AM
 
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But a lot of behaviours - moral convinctions - attitudes towards xyz in life - which go 'against the grain' of society, tend to be a fleeting part of youth, rather than being what that person is and always will be for the rest of their life. For some, it IS who they are. But for many, it is not. Whether that is being child-free, vegan, vegetarian, free loving, goth, liberal/democrat, student's rights protestors, whatever.... 

 

To me, that is the connection between veganism and a child-free lifestyle. Again, that's just my opinion.

 

I hear what you're saying, but perhaps you mean that is a connection between veganism and a child-free lifestyle?

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#88 Old 03-05-2013, 12:44 PM
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Yes, sorry. I certainly can't claim any absolutes! :)

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#89 Old 03-08-2013, 09:31 AM
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For all of you people saying you don't want kids, then giving reasons why, then closing by saying you'll adopt if you decide you want kids, please stop before you bring up adoption. Just stop.

Choose a camp. There are only two:
-Child-free is child-free.
-Parents includes all parents, even adoptive. You choose to be a parent, then you choose the method.

 
 

I disagree with this statement 100% because of this:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crystal Lotus View Post

I can only speak for myself here, obviously, but over the course of my life I have wanted and not wanted to have children on and off, sometimes changing my mind from one day to the next. Being so unsure about it seems a good reason to stop and have a serious think about what would be wisest, which is what I have done.

 

  I have had many feelings about being or not being a parent in my life.  There is no reason for me to join a "camp".  I have and will change my mind about it.  There is no reason that my feelings about being a parent in this moment should determine the feelings I will have about it in the future.  

 

I am 33 years old.  I have no children.  I do not want children at this time.  I am not in a serious relationship and do not see that happening in the near future.  The likelihood that I will have a biological child in the window of time that I have left is pretty slim.  If in the future I decide that the time is right and I have the desire/calling/social pressure reason to have a child, adoption is probably the route I would take.  There is no reason for anyone to be insulted by that.  Yes, I know that adoption is not easy.  I refuse to join a side/camp.  That limits me.  That limits my life experience.  I will continue to grow and learn throughout this life and I reserve the right to change my mind and heart about any issue.

 

There are all kinds of people in this world and we all have value even if we don't fit into a "camp".

 

Back to the original topic.   I don't think my lack of desire to be a parent right now has anything to do with veganism.  It has more to do with the culmination of events in my life, most of which occur before I became vegan.  

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#90 Old 05-20-2013, 10:37 PM
 
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Curious to know how many 30-something (or 20 something) vegans don't want to have kids?

 

We live in a small city and are part of a vegan group. All of our  30-something friends from this group don't have or want kids. Which is different (in a good way since we don't want kids either) because all of our childhood friends who are typical omnivores all have multiple children. We think this may have to do with the fact that vegans just tend to question societal norms more than others. Any thoughts?


you are a vegan in amman please cant i meet you i don't know any vegans in here apart from my mother and ivana

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