Vegan product, non-vegan company - how far do we go? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 02-12-2013, 07:34 PM
 
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Is it ok for a vegan to purchase a vegan meal (if one existed) from McDonalds bearing in mind the extent of their use of meat and fish?

 

What about a product that 'may contain traces of milk' owing to the manufacture of non-vegan products with the same equipment?

 

If yes to both of those (I'd definitely have the latter as there's been no intention to put milk in the product I'm going to eat; not sure about the former - if I was really hungry and it was the only place open - maybe) what's the difference with, say, avoiding a vegan shampoo or washing-up liquid or whatever, if the manufacturer tests some of its other products on animals?

 

What if a vegan company was owned by a larger company that might have unethical policies with regard to animals?

 

If the product is vegan, or even the company, how far removed should we go in finding instances of associated animal products or testing?

 

If I buy clothes I'm highly likely to buy them from a store that also sells leather in some form, whether shoes or belts or whatever.

 

It might even be possible for companies who sell such items as televisions or computers or mobile phones to be involved, from the raw materials necessary or glues, etc, to be unethical.

 

What about this (silly extreme, maybe) - I pay to watch sport and they use a leather ball.

 

Are all these just daft examples and if we were to go to these extremes we would make life very difficult for ourselves?

 

Just how far do we go as vegans re (for wont of a better expression) 'associated cruelty' ?

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#2 Old 02-12-2013, 07:49 PM
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Yes it is okay to purchase a vegan meal from a non vegan instiutinon, because that sends a message to that institution that those meals are in demand and maybe their amount of meat over time would reduce when more and more people eat veggie based meals.

 

"May contain traces" is fine because it doesn't mean it contains milk, it's just processed on the same equipment. It's the same thing that would apply to my above explanation.

 

This is also like the Tom's of Maine concern. They are owned by a larger company that does or at least consider animal testing okay, though Tom's of maine doesn't test on the animals themselves. I think it's okay to purchase from them because that lets the parent company know that consumers care about products not being tested on animals.

 

I buy clothes from thrift stores/ goodwill,consignments/second hand shops to be eco friendly and save our resources. I sometimes see fur there but overall I still get vegan items. I'm basically supporting a small business that promotes reusing and being eco friendly (whether they realize that part or not) so I'm okay with that.

 

Animal glues and miniscule things used to put technology together I'm not even going to get into because I think that is just way too far stretched for me. 

 

It's up to the individual to determine what they are comfortable with. Some vegans may not sit on a leather couch. I'm off and on about that...depends on if I just watched a slaughterhouse video or not lately.  If someone doesn't want to watch a game b/c they use a leather ball, more power too them and I have much respect for them for keeping strong to their convictions of being anti animal cruelty to their every action and putting the animals before their pleasures.


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#3 Old 02-12-2013, 08:17 PM
 
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Wow, ultra fast reply!

 

Interesting.  I wouldn't necessarily have viewed eating a McDonald's vegan meal as sending a message to them but you might have a point smiley.gif  I would think there are many vegans/vegetarians who would boycott McDonald's regardless of the availability of vegan meals.  It's a complicated business this veganism!

 

I would think the 'may contain traces' is mainly for those with allergies.

 

I think it depends on the product whether it will send a message to the company or not.  Obviously a vegan meal or a vegan toothpaste - they will be bought for vegans.  Some biscuits with milk in being ignored by vegans in favour of biscuits without, well if the company was the same would they really notice that it was the milk that was the problem unless the disparity was large?  I can't remember what the product is now but it's two very very closely related items by the same company but with different style packaging - one contains milk, the other doesn't!

 

I used to use charity shops/second hand stores when I was a meat eater but for no ethical reason - that was just the style of clothes I was into at the time (60s/vintage etc). 

 

I don't know if Primark is in America but in Britain it's a very very popular (and cheap) clothing store but in order to sell clothes at such low prices I think they might use cheap labour in the far east.  A possible human rights issue!  And again, how far do we go with that!?  So many products are now made in the far east with workers getting paid tiny wages and working long hours with little or no idea of health and safety etc etc.  But that's an aside.

 

Animal glues - I'm not sure everyone would agree it's too far-fetched.  Lots of vegans like to wear vegan footwear (i.e. without animal-derived glue).

 

Yes I've had reservations about leather couches.  One of my friends spent a load of money on one and I initially refused to sit on it then I just thought I was being ridiculous and almost making veganism a laughing stock by going to such lengths.

 

You say it's up to the individual, and I agree to an extent, but how does this fit in with someone on another thread bemoaning lax definitions and lax vegans?  If you call yourself a vegan just what is expected of you?  And I see that as a problem because there doesn't seem a definitive definition of veganism that vegans can abide by or at least hope to aspire to.

 

If we boycott a product or the spectating of a sport or whatever does it have to have a consequence?  i.e. if I boycott a sport using a leather ball, noone would know I'd boycotted the sport because of the leather ball, thus would it make any difference?  Would me boycotting the game make it any more likely that they'd use a non-leather ball?  I'd say not.  

 

 

 

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Originally Posted by 4everaspirit View Post

Yes it is okay to purchase a vegan meal from a non vegan instiutinon, because that sends a message to that institution that those meals are in demand and maybe their amount of meat over time would reduce when more and more people eat veggie based meals.

 

"May contain traces" is fine because it doesn't mean it contains milk, it's just processed on the same equipment. It's the same thing that would apply to my above explanation.

 

This is also like the Tom's of Maine concern. They are owned by a larger company that does or at least consider animal testing okay, though Tom's of maine doesn't test on the animals themselves. I think it's okay to purchase from them because that lets the parent company know that consumers care about products not being tested on animals.

 

I buy clothes from thrift stores/ goodwill,consignments/second hand shops to be eco friendly and save our resources. I sometimes see fur there but overall I still get vegan items. I'm basically supporting a small business that promotes reusing and being eco friendly (whether they realize that part or not) so I'm okay with that.

 

Animal glues and miniscule things used to put technology together I'm not even going to get into because I think that is just way too far stretched for me. 

 

It's up to the individual to determine what they are comfortable with. Some vegans may not sit on a leather couch. I'm off and on about that...depends on if I just watched a slaughterhouse video or not lately.  If someone doesn't want to watch a game b/c they use a leather ball, more power too them and I have much respect for them for keeping strong to their convictions of being anti animal cruelty to their every action and putting the animals before their pleasures.

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#4 Old 02-12-2013, 08:47 PM
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I think that it is okay. I still choose not to eat at McD's because it's not healthy at all. Except maybe the packages of sliced apples. So if you're in a pinch.  Still, to send a message to the company I would actually email/call them and let them know what you're choosing and why.

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#5 Old 02-12-2013, 08:56 PM
 
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I think that it is okay. I still choose not to eat at McD's because it's not healthy at all. Except maybe the packages of sliced apples. So if you're in a pinch.  Still, to send a message to the company I would actually email/call them and let them know what you're choosing and why.

 

I think that's a good idea - eating a specifically-targeted vegan product might send a message but otherwise it's unlikely they will just guess you're buying or avoiding a product for vegan reasons. 

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#6 Old 02-13-2013, 12:10 AM
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Yes I've had reservations about leather couches.  One of my friends spent a load of money on one and I initially refused to sit on it then I just thought I was being ridiculous and almost making veganism a laughing stock by going to such lengths.

 

You say it's up to the individual, and I agree to an extent, but how does this fit in with someone on another thread bemoaning lax definitions and lax vegans?  If you call yourself a vegan just what is expected of you?  And I see that as a problem because there doesn't seem a definitive definition of veganism that vegans can abide by or at least hope to aspire to.

 

 

 

 

 

In general, the meaning of veganism is to live without exploiting animals. Every vegan is supposed to avoid animal exploitation when practical and possible. This is where grey areas come up becomes some people do encounter impractical circumstances, or what may be practical for "some" may not be seen as such by someone else. (Environment and access to resources can be a limiting factor)

 

In general, here is my base "catch all" of what a general vegan does and does not support; "A vegan is someone who does not consume any animal products. This includes meat, dairy, eggs, honey, and most commonly known animal byproducts (gelatin, whey, casein, rennet. Of course there are a longer list of animal ingredients, but I think it's only important that vegans stay away from the main ones.) In addition with not consuming animal products, they do not buy any clothing articles that are made from animals, buy any animal tested products or products with animal ingredients, and they do not support places which make money off of animal exploitation, such as Rodeos, SeaWorld, Zoos, pet trade, etc "

 

Other more grey areas such as sitting on leather couches, or glue in shoes, I think is not necessarily always a discussion of what would generally be practical to us, but sometimes how practical society would view us and how they see the vegan lifestyle. Then again, you also have to consider, everyone takes things their own way. A meat eater seeing you refusing to sit on a couch might admire your adherence to your morals, but another might think you are way too extreme or radical and put too much of a limitation on yourself in a situation where you would not be further causing suffering/exploitation to animals.

 

It might be beneficial, for the animals, to size someone up, consider how they would react to an action on behalf/respect of the animals, and take a stance in these grey areas where you might have the most positive effect at planting a seed in someone's mind. If someone is willing to do that, more power to them. I'm not saying anyone has to care what others think of their veganism. I know some people could care less as they aren't trying to cater to how meat eaters want them to act within this lifestyle. However, I try to consider how my actions possibly effect animals and people's thoughts about veganism, so I try to shape people's perceptions of veganism through my actions in a way that certain individuals wouldn't find too "out there." 

 

You might like this discussion which kind of got me thinking along these lines I am now; To be more practical in society where vegansim is seen as extreme. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNdl_f5IabA  (This wasn't the bulk of the discussion, but if I recall, I think it was part of it?) As an example, I tend go by a general "if it looks vegan, I eat it" with college food (though if I was buying my own personal food, I would double check). This allows me to not feel so limited and worry over miniscule animal ingredients and I also don't look like I deprive myself to others. In makes veganism seem more doable and worth trying to people, which can only be good for animals. A year ago, I would send waiters at a restaurant into an ingredient search spree, and I honestly think that only made veganism generally look a bit obsessive, more so than it needed to be. I'm happy with where I am at now and what I am doing for animals.


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#7 Old 02-13-2013, 12:28 AM
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Since there are no vegan restaurants and no vegan grocery stores where I live, I don't see how I could possibly avoid supporting non-vegan companies. 

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#8 Old 02-13-2013, 12:45 AM
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Wow, ultra fast reply!

 

Interesting.  I wouldn't necessarily have viewed eating a McDonald's vegan meal as sending a message to them but you might have a point smiley.gif  

She's right. Ordering veg food sends a huge message I think. In New Mexico, a bunch of my co-workers liked fast food, but I wouldn't normally go (don't like fast food) unless they went to Burger King because at least they offered veggie burgers. Then we went there once and I ordered the veggie burger and they said, "No one ever ordered it, so we quit offering it."

 

Lame. In Portland, almost all the fast food places offer veggie options I think, at least according to a veg teen I know. 

 

Overall, I avoid fast food because it's gross, but I do think the only way to change food chain places is to go and order veggie food. AND maybe ask for stuff other than veggie burgers, geez, it's like most restaurants think that's all the vegetarian food they need.

 

Beyond food, I don't buy cleaners from companies unless they're cruelty free and I try hard to get vegan soaps and cosmetics but that is REALLY tough, mostly you're stuck with cruelty free from a bad parent company. I don't stress over every single little choice I make to be honest though, because one, I don't like being stressed and two, eating vegan meals 100% is already doing a lot, so if I screw up and buy something that may not be 100% animal welfare minded - like your examples of materials used in various products, I try not to stress. 


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#9 Old 02-13-2013, 05:28 PM
 
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I think the meaning of exploitation is open to some interpretation too.  Is caring for a domesticated cat exploitation?  Allowing it both a warm house and complete access to the outdoors as it likes (cat flap in the door).  Plus food, water, milk etc.  And love.  

 

I agree with most of your definition of veganism.  However I don't understand why only 'the main' byproducts are important.  You seem hardline on the one hand then more lax elsewhere.  Not entirely sure about zoos, aquariums, etc.  I campaigned against the local zoo when I was younger and part of the animal rights scene, but I was partly going along with others rather than because I had fully made up my mind.  I have since been once and paid to go in and whilst I wasn't outraged I was a bit uncomfortable about the conditions for especially the larger animals.  Hmmm, need to give this one more thought.  Is your opinion that no matter (a) how good the conditions the educational exposure of adults/children to animals they would never otherwise encounter plus (b) the possibility that without zoos some animals might become extinct, these don't justify keeping any animal in captivity?  I probably tend to agree but as I say I need to give it more thought.  If animals become extinct, well that's just the way it goes.  Obviously I am 100% against animal circuses, rodeos, donkey rides on the beach or horse-drawn carriages or anything like that where the animal is unnecessarily physically employed for the benefit of human entertainment.

 

Re the leather couch example I think there is a fine line to tread between following up your beliefs and making vegans look like perennial quibblers.  If the leather couch is the only seating in the room maybe I'll sit on it.  If there are alternatives I'll sit on them.  If there aren't and I choose to sit on the floor it risks vegans looking too outside of normal society and conventions such that 'normal society' views vegans as deliberately awkward.  I dunno, I'm split on the leather couch thing.  Would my not sitting on someone else's leather couch make any difference to the amount of leather couches produced in the future?  Hmmm.  I don't like the texture/feel of leather couches anyway.

 

Yes I don't like to be too 'out there'.  You can be an example to people by being a quiet vegan.  Quietly showing dedication to avoid all those nice tasting foods, severely limiting footwear options (much more difficult for the fashion-conscious vegan) etc.  Most people do not have the dedication to be even a vegetarian, never mind a vegan.  It's very restrictive when eating out, it's very restrictive with footwear, it must be difficult to stop eating all the lovely tastes that come from animals.  It's a hassle finding vegan toiletries and cosmetics and cleaning products.  Being a vegan or vegetarian takes dedication and that's a good lesson in itself to others.  Hell I'm quite a lazy person so if I can do it...

 

Hmmm tricky one.  I think I would still have to satisfy myself that food in a canteen, say, is vegan, by asking.  It is very restrictive though because I hate asking, I hate having to explain what a vegan is and list all the ingredients I can't have.  So I tend to avoid eating out, it's just too much hassle.  Jacket potato with beans (no butter) is usually safe but I don't want to eat that often plus it's only usually available in less posh eateries like cafes or pubs.  I once got them to print out an ingredients list in Pizza Hut.  A large number of pages!  (Cringe.)  And try explaining to  workers in restaurants who don't speak good English what a vegan can or cannot eat.  So I certainly see why you're a bit less strict when out for food.  I just don't feel comfortable doing that myself at the moment.  

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4everaspirit View Post

 

In general, the meaning of veganism is to live without exploiting animals. Every vegan is supposed to avoid animal exploitation when practical and possible. This is where grey areas come up becomes some people do encounter impractical circumstances, or what may be practical for "some" may not be seen as such by someone else. (Environment and access to resources can be a limiting factor)

 

In general, here is my base "catch all" of what a general vegan does and does not support; "A vegan is someone who does not consume any animal products. This includes meat, dairy, eggs, honey, and most commonly known animal byproducts (gelatin, whey, casein, rennet. Of course there are a longer list of animal ingredients, but I think it's only important that vegans stay away from the main ones.) In addition with not consuming animal products, they do not buy any clothing articles that are made from animals, buy any animal tested products or products with animal ingredients, and they do not support places which make money off of animal exploitation, such as Rodeos, SeaWorld, Zoos, pet trade, etc "

 

Other more grey areas such as sitting on leather couches, or glue in shoes, I think is not necessarily always a discussion of what would generally be practical to us, but sometimes how practical society would view us and how they see the vegan lifestyle. Then again, you also have to consider, everyone takes things their own way. A meat eater seeing you refusing to sit on a couch might admire your adherence to your morals, but another might think you are way too extreme or radical and put too much of a limitation on yourself in a situation where you would not be further causing suffering/exploitation to animals.

 

It might be beneficial, for the animals, to size someone up, consider how they would react to an action on behalf/respect of the animals, and take a stance in these grey areas where you might have the most positive effect at planting a seed in someone's mind. If someone is willing to do that, more power to them. I'm not saying anyone has to care what others think of their veganism. I know some people could care less as they aren't trying to cater to how meat eaters want them to act within this lifestyle. However, I try to consider how my actions possibly effect animals and people's thoughts about veganism, so I try to shape people's perceptions of veganism through my actions in a way that certain individuals wouldn't find too "out there." 

 

You might like this discussion which kind of got me thinking along these lines I am now; To be more practical in society where vegansim is seen as extreme. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNdl_f5IabA  (This wasn't the bulk of the discussion, but if I recall, I think it was part of it?) As an example, I tend go by a general "if it looks vegan, I eat it" with college food (though if I was buying my own personal food, I would double check). This allows me to not feel so limited and worry over miniscule animal ingredients and I also don't look like I deprive myself to others. In makes veganism seem more doable and worth trying to people, which can only be good for animals. A year ago, I would send waiters at a restaurant into an ingredient search spree, and I honestly think that only made veganism generally look a bit obsessive, more so than it needed to be. I'm happy with where I am at now and what I am doing for animals.

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#10 Old 02-13-2013, 06:42 PM
 
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Ok cool I might consider going in a McDonald's if they have a product that's suitable.  When I buy soya milk I usually get three or four 1 litre cartons and I wonder how that affects their future ordering of soya milk.  Most major supermarkets stock it now in the UK even their small 'Express' ones.  Well, they do in my area anyway, and it's not an area rife with vegetarians or vegans in my experience.  Maybe there are secret ones eh? grin.gif

 

I was only recently looking at a list of the best American places to be veggie.  I think Portland is one of the best.  I wonder if there's a corellation between the amount of veggie places to eat and the quality of life in a city?  Might places with lots of veggie eateries be more likely to have peaceful residents or, say, flourishing arts scenes?  There are no veggie places to eat where I live even if you include the nearby areas and that amounts to a population in excess of 250,000.  That's excusively veggie by the way.  Nearly all cafes/restaurants will offer vegetarian options but almost none will offer vegan as standard although no doubt in many instances a suitable dish could be prepared.  It might be basic though!

 

I've nothing against fast food in moderation but there are plenty of people in the UK, as in the States whose diet is largely take-aways.

 

I really need to up my game re vegan toiletries, etc.  I just hope most of the stuff I need is available locally. 

 

Yeah avoiding a bad parent company might be a step too far at the moment for me.

 

 

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She's right. Ordering veg food sends a huge message I think. In New Mexico, a bunch of my co-workers liked fast food, but I wouldn't normally go (don't like fast food) unless they went to Burger King because at least they offered veggie burgers. Then we went there once and I ordered the veggie burger and they said, "No one ever ordered it, so we quit offering it."

 

Lame. In Portland, almost all the fast food places offer veggie options I think, at least according to a veg teen I know. 

 

Overall, I avoid fast food because it's gross, but I do think the only way to change food chain places is to go and order veggie food. AND maybe ask for stuff other than veggie burgers, geez, it's like most restaurants think that's all the vegetarian food they need.

 

Beyond food, I don't buy cleaners from companies unless they're cruelty free and I try hard to get vegan soaps and cosmetics but that is REALLY tough, mostly you're stuck with cruelty free from a bad parent company. I don't stress over every single little choice I make to be honest though, because one, I don't like being stressed and two, eating vegan meals 100% is already doing a lot, so if I screw up and buy something that may not be 100% animal welfare minded - like your examples of materials used in various products, I try not to stress. 

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#11 Old 02-13-2013, 07:10 PM
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I think the meaning of exploitation is open to some interpretation too.  Is caring for a domesticated cat exploitation?  Allowing it both a warm house and complete access to the outdoors as it likes (cat flap in the door).  Plus food, water, milk etc.  And love.  

 

I agree with most of your definition of veganism.  However I don't understand why only 'the main' byproducts are important.  You seem hardline on the one hand then more lax elsewhere.  Not entirely sure about zoos, aquariums, etc.  I campaigned against the local zoo when I was younger and part of the animal rights scene, but I was partly going along with others rather than because I had fully made up my mind.  I have since been once and paid to go in and whilst I wasn't outraged I was a bit uncomfortable about the conditions for especially the larger animals.  Hmmm, need to give this one more thought.  Is your opinion that no matter (a) how good the conditions the educational exposure of adults/children to animals they would never otherwise encounter plus (b) the possibility that without zoos some animals might become extinct, these don't justify keeping any animal in captivity?  I probably tend to agree but as I say I need to give it more thought.  If animals become extinct, well that's just the way it goes.  Obviously I am 100% against animal circuses, rodeos, donkey rides on the beach or horse-drawn carriages or anything like that where the animal is unnecessarily physically employed for the benefit of human entertainment.

 

 

 

 

 

I never said having  a pet was animal exploitation. I was implying that buying from pet stores and puppy mills rather than adopting was. I plan to adopt a rabbit in the future and I already have a technically rescue betta in a 5 gallon tank with 7 fake plants, 2 caves, and 3 cleaned pill bottles that she loves.

 

Because that is how I find veganism to be the most practical and understandable for people. It also just makes the most sense in the vegan philosophy if we want to do the MOST good for the animals; Adamant in the hardcore areas where direct exploitation of sentient beings would be involved, and more lax in grey areas (so we don't turn people off to caring about animals by being in their eyes, too obsessive about our actions.). It's not for me to be the vegan police when vegans differ on grey areas. A lot of the concerns such as "bone char in sugar" will go away once the slaughterhouses go away. It's way more important to focus on the main areas of exploitation.

 

I'm against most zoos. If they are reabilitative and actually give the animals a surreal environment, I won't make qualms. Education to people about animals and getting them to connect with them is extremely important (people don't connect enough with farm animals, which is why people don't understand WHO they are eating.) it's just important that the type of environment should be appropriate for those animals and the animals should never been seen as commodities or merely "entertainment."

 

As I said, do as you feel most comfortable in managing the grey areas.


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#12 Old 02-13-2013, 07:49 PM
 
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Ah I see re pets.  I don't know what cruelties are involved with pet stores other than to the animals that sit there in the shop in cages with humans passing by gawping/pointing at them, sticking their fingers through the cage wires etc.  I don't know what a puppy mill is, but presumably some intensive breeding place.

 

Wow, very interesting.  I don't think I've encountered anyone like you that's neither a lazy/low-end vegan nor a complete stickler for the rules.  Mind you, I've not encountered many vegans!  And there was me avoiding all sorts of alcohol for 8 years because of isinglass which probably doesn't even appear in the actual drink, bemoaning the introduction of lactose in my favourite decongestant  and thus no longer buying it (see also antihistamines - why oh why do they insist in putting lactose in? sad.gif ) etc (yet strangely because I don't think there's an alternative I have to have thyroid tablets that contain lactose).  I am genuinely surprised by your stance.  I kinda like it but also I'm having trouble getting my head around it.  I thought veganism was all about rules and restrictions - don'ts and can'ts.  

 

There is a place a few miles away where you can take your kids around and 'meet' farm animals but yes the vast majority of folk these days never come close to a real farm animal.   Interestingly though I wonder how many farmers or farm workers are veggie?  I wouldn't have thought too many, although feel free to correct me.

 

 

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Originally Posted by 4everaspirit View Post

 

I never said having  a pet was animal exploitation. I was implying that buying from pet stores and puppy mills rather than adopting was. I plan to adopt a rabbit in the future and I already have a technically rescue betta in a 5 gallon tank with 7 fake plants, 2 caves, and 3 cleaned pill bottles that she loves.

 

Because that is how I find veganism to be the most practical and understandable for people. It also just makes the most sense in the vegan philosophy if we want to do the MOST good for the animals; Adamant in the hardcore areas where direct exploitation of sentient beings would be involved, and more lax in grey areas (so we don't turn people off to caring about animals by being in their eyes, too obsessive about our actions.). It's not for me to be the vegan police when vegans differ on grey areas. A lot of the concerns such as "bone char in sugar" will go away once the slaughterhouses go away. It's way more important to focus on the main areas of exploitation.

 

I'm against most zoos. If they are reabilitative and actually give the animals a surreal environment, I won't make qualms. Education to people about animals and getting them to connect with them is extremely important (people don't connect enough with farm animals, which is why people don't understand WHO they are eating.) it's just important that the type of environment should be appropriate for those animals and the animals should never been seen as commodities or merely "entertainment."

 

As I said, do as you feel most comfortable in managing the grey areas.

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#13 Old 02-13-2013, 08:35 PM
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Ah I see re pets.  I don't know what cruelties are involved with pet stores other than to the animals that sit there in the shop in cages with humans passing by gawping/pointing at them, sticking their fingers through the cage wires etc.  I don't know what a puppy mill is, but presumably some intensive breeding place.

 

Wow, very interesting.  I don't think I've encountered anyone like you that's neither a lazy/low-end vegan nor a complete stickler for the rules.  Mind you, I've not encountered many vegans!  And there was me avoiding all sorts of alcohol for 8 years because of isinglass which probably doesn't even appear in the actual drink, bemoaning the introduction of lactose in my favourite decongestant  and thus no longer buying it (see also antihistamines - why oh why do they insist in putting lactose in? sad.gif ) etc (yet strangely because I don't think there's an alternative I have to have thyroid tablets that contain lactose).  I am genuinely surprised by your stance.  I kinda like it but also I'm having trouble getting my head around it.  I thought veganism was all about rules and restrictions - don'ts and can'ts.  

 

There is a place a few miles away where you can take your kids around and 'meet' farm animals but yes the vast majority of folk these days never come close to a real farm animal.   Interestingly though I wonder how many farmers or farm workers are veggie?  I wouldn't have thought too many, although feel free to correct me.

 

 

You just have given me a LOT more to talk about *o* I'm going to be on this board all night.....no....I have homework that needs done >_>

 

Anyway! For the idea of what a puppy mill is, google image it, or better yet watch the documentary "Earthlings." free on the earthlings site.

 

I'm somewhat flattered at your intrigue to my stance lol. For some, veganism is probably more about "I cannot/willnot not eat this. I cannot/willnot not do that." and that's definitely a large part of me as well, however I know some people want to follow the vegan ways militantly, and I can only say, more power to them and I think that's wonderful that people would be willing to put that much of themselves before the animals. But that speech I linked you to by Bruce Frederich really influenced me and made me think about how my actions are viewed by others. It's not that I necessarily care what others think of my actions, (People think I'm already weird enough cuz I'm vegan since they don't understand), but at least, from that speech (as well as the book I'm reading now),  they kind of connected me to the fact that I do not want to make veganism look extreme or impractical to others.

 

I want to do THE MOST good for animals. I want to be the vegan that is able get "more people" on board with caring about animals (actually, so far I don't think I have been very successful, no matter how polite/understanding I try to be to people, and now matter how many friends I have given veg pamphlets to =(  However, I think the "me being a friend" to many of them can make many resistant as most people don't like to act like someone has "influenced them." <-- This was actually covered in more detail about public speakers in the book I'm about to talk about.). To understand where I'm getting at, there is a book that I'm reading called "Change of Heart: What psychology can teach us about spreading social change" that is actually based on scientific studies and understandings about how to effectively "plant the most seeds" when advocating for social change. I'm about halfway through it and I found a lot of the studies fascinating.  I think these findings in this book could help us bring more into the vegan lifestyle, without compromising vegan ethics.

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Change-Heart-Psychology-Spreading-Social/dp/159056233X

 

As for farmers and vegginess, I used to live on a farm, and I was one that actually sent my baby cow to slaughter when I was younger. I'm now flow blown vegan, and I take it super seriously. I have halted friendships because of one too many jokes that were disrespectful to animals and their being.

 

If you want to watch a really amazing documentary about farmers who faced themselves and changed their lifestyle, you need to watch "Peaceable Kingdom."  It's a documentary!

 

You might also like this article http://www.cok.net/blog/2012/07/one-farmers-story-pig-farm-pig-sanctuary/

 

Oh yeah, and here are some farm sanctuaries. I think one of them even stated (maybe all!) that they do not allow animal products on their premises <3

 

http://www.farmsanctuary.com

http://woodstocksanctuary.org/

http://animalplace.org/aboutap.html

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#14 Old 02-13-2013, 09:11 PM
 
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Heh, and I need to get to bed.  It's nearly 5am!  This site is addictive!

 

I have a few documentaries downloaded that I need to watch - Earthlings is one of them.  Also Vegucated and Forks Over Knives and a YouTube video the name of which I've forgotten.

 

I am nodding at your goals of not making veganism look too difficult, doing the most good for animals and getting more people on board with caring for them.  That's why, for instance, I suggested veganism might need a re-branding in some way, to keep the same ethics but to package it in a modern more attractive way.  You know, for instance, an advert showing a dreadlocked dude or dudette in sandals and hippy clothing next to a very smart clean-cut businessman - "Spot the vegan" - they both are!  Ok, crap example but basically making veganism mainstream, making it not just the preserve of students, 'stinking hippies' and anarchists but acceptable for anyone.  Vegan athletes, vegan weightlifters, whatever.  

 

That book sounds interesting but is it really sciencey to read?

 

Nice story re the farmer smiley.gif

 

I'll add Peaceable Kingdom to my list of videos to watch, thank you.  I need to stop coming on here so I can watch some!

 

 

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Originally Posted by 4everaspirit View Post

You just have given me a LOT more to talk about *o* I'm going to be on this board all night.....no....I have homework that needs done >_>

 

Anyway! For the idea of what a puppy mill is, google image it, or better yet watch the documentary "Earthlings." free on the earthlings site.

 

I'm somewhat flattered at your intrigue to my stance lol. For some, veganism is probably more about "I cannot/willnot not eat this. I cannot/willnot not do that." and that's definitely a large part of me as well, however I know some people want to follow the vegan ways militantly, and I can only say, more power to them and I think that's wonderful that people would be willing to put that much of themselves before the animals. But that speech I linked you to by Bruce Frederich really influenced me and made me think about how my actions are viewed by others. It's not that I necessarily care what others think of my actions, (People think I'm already weird enough cuz I'm vegan since they don't understand), but at least, from that speech (as well as the book I'm reading now),  they kind of connected me to the fact that I do not want to make veganism look extreme or impractical to others. I want to do THE MOST good for animals. I want to be the vegan that is able get "more people" on board with caring about animals (actually, so far I don't think I have been very successful, no matter how polite/understanding I try to be to people, and now matter how many friends I have given veg pamphlets to =( ). To understand where I'm getting at, there is a book that I'm reading called "Change of Heart: What psychology can teach us about spreading social change" that is actual based on scientific studies and understandings about how to effectively "plant the most seeds" when advocating for social chage. I'm about halfway through it and I found a lot of the studies fascinating.  I think these findings in this book could help us bring more into the vegan lifestyle, without compromising vegan ethics.

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Change-Heart-Psychology-Spreading-Social/dp/159056233X

 

As for farmers and vegginess, I used to live on a farm, and I was one that actually sent my baby cow to slaughter when I was younger. I'm now flow blown vegan, and I take it super seriously. I have halted friendships because of one too many jokes that were disrespectful to animals and their being.

 

If you want to watch a really amazing documentary about farmers who faced themselves and changed their lifestyle, you need to watch "Peaceable Kingdom."  It's a documentary!

 

You might also like this article http://www.cok.net/blog/2012/07/one-farmers-story-pig-farm-pig-sanctuary/

 

Oh yeah, and here are some farm sanctuaries

 

http://www.farmsanctuary.com

http://woodstocksanctuary.org/

http://animalplace.org/aboutap.html

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#15 Old 02-13-2013, 11:31 PM
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Heh, and I need to get to bed.  It's nearly 5am!  This site is addictive!

 

I have a few documentaries downloaded that I need to watch - Earthlings is one of them.  Also Vegucated and Forks Over Knives and a YouTube video the name of which I've forgotten.

 

I am nodding at your goals of not making veganism look too difficult, doing the most good for animals and getting more people on board with caring for them.  That's why, for instance, I suggested veganism might need a re-branding in some way, to keep the same ethics but to package it in a modern more attractive way.  You know, for instance, an advert showing a dreadlocked dude or dudette in sandals and hippy clothing next to a very smart clean-cut businessman - "Spot the vegan" - they both are!  Ok, crap example but basically making veganism mainstream, making it not just the preserve of students, 'stinking hippies' and anarchists but acceptable for anyone.  Vegan athletes, vegan weightlifters, whatever.  

 

That book sounds interesting but is it really sciencey to read?

 

Nice story re the farmer smiley.gif

 

I'll add Peaceable Kingdom to my list of videos to watch, thank you.  I need to stop coming on here so I can watch some!

 

 

 

Youtube video is probably "Best Speech You Will Ever Hear" by gary yourofksy, "The psychology of eating meat" by melanie joy, or "animals should be off the menu" by Philip wollen.....probably one of those three =3

 

Yeah, many vegans get told "but you don't look like a vegan!!" and they respond with "Well what does a vegan look like?" and that stumps people for a minute as they realize their own stereotypes.

 

Hmm, the book isn't really sciency so much. It tells you about the studies in a way that most people could understand and in an enjoyable way. It's not like  an "thrilling" book, but it's definitely written at a level that would be suitable for most most people. It just requires little bit more thought and one really wanting to take in the information. The author does talk to YOU, the reader though, which I think is good as it gives it more of a personal feel and he tries to relate things to his own experiences in activism as well. 

 

I let my friend read this when she comes to my dorm room and I am already on the computer working on veggieboards. Gives her something to do. She actually enjoys it, but admits it's important to not take it in all at once. It's more of a book that you have to kind of gradually take in all the information. It's good for someone who really wants to become a better activist, and you don't need to be of much psychology knowledge to understand it as he breaks things down for you.


"Why should man expect his prayer for mercy to be heard by What is above him when he shows no mercy to what is under him?" ~Pierre Troubetzkoy
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#16 Old 02-14-2013, 10:03 AM
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To me veganism has nothing to do with how my money is spent. It's not a "vote with my dollars." I can see how others think that way but I don't. To me veganism is about abstaining from using animals as commodities as much as possible. I feel like if we think of it as voting then we can justify all sorts of strange ways of spending money and it tends to detract from the basic point of veganism: animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use.

 

An example of how I think veganism is separate from economic choices: I think children can choose to be vegan despite their lack of control over how their family money is spent. At some age (varies) they become capable of making choices about who/what to eat, who/what to wear, who/what to exploit.... They may not have control over what restaurants they go to or where their family shops for groceries, but they can control what they individually support. They can choose a vegan meal at a place like McDonald's or Taco Bell.

 

I think that those of us who are better able to choose how our money is spent need to work to ensure that all the people who don't have as many choices as us can still make vegan choices. So that means children, people at hospitals, people in prisons, people in the armed forces, and other people who don't have as much freedom as we have should have the option to make vegan choices. We need to do what we can to give them vegan choices and support their vegan choices. Being vegan is about rejecting carnism; it's not about earning and spending money.

 

In other words, I don't think it's fair - to animals nor to people with limited choices - to define veganism as something that requires economic freedom.

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#17 Old 02-14-2013, 11:20 AM
 
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I kinda like what you say although I don't fully understand.

 

Most people choose veganism, I would have thought, because of their own conscience - they do not, as you say, want to use animals as commodities.  But I don't know if we should ignore the economics.  Companies won't make vegan food available unless there's profit in it - unless we pay for it with our vegan dollars.  Food costs money unless you grow it yourself whether you're a meat-eater or a vegan.  

 

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To me veganism has nothing to do with how my money is spent. It's not a "vote with my dollars." I can see how others think that way but I don't. To me veganism is about abstaining from using animals as commodities as much as possible. I feel like if we think of it as voting then we can justify all sorts of strange ways of spending money and it tends to detract from the basic point of veganism: animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use.

 

An example of how I think veganism is separate from economic choices: I think children can choose to be vegan despite their lack of control over how their family money is spent. At some age (varies) they become capable of making choices about who/what to eat, who/what to wear, who/what to exploit.... They may not have control over what restaurants they go to or where their family shops for groceries, but they can control what they individually support. They can choose a vegan meal at a place like McDonald's or Taco Bell.

 

I think that those of us who are better able to choose how our money is spent need to work to ensure that all the people who don't have as many choices as us can still make vegan choices. So that means children, people at hospitals, people in prisons, people in the armed forces, and other people who don't have as much freedom as we have should have the option to make vegan choices. We need to do what we can to give them vegan choices and support their vegan choices. Being vegan is about rejecting carnism; it's not about earning and spending money.

 

In other words, I don't think it's fair - to animals nor to people with limited choices - to define veganism as something that requires economic freedom.

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#18 Old 02-14-2013, 11:48 AM
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Companies won't make vegan food available unless there's profit in it - unless we pay for it with our vegan dollars.

If that's your justification for buying vegan foods from nonvegan companies that's fine. I support that decision 100%.

 

What I was trying to say though is that veganism can exist in any economic system, not just capitalism. In my view, a vegan is someone who rejects carnism. Veganism is a way of life that abstains from consuming or exploiting animals as much as practical and possible.

 

Also, even in capitalism there are other factors at work than merely consumer demand.

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#19 Old 02-14-2013, 12:06 PM
 
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Is it ok for a vegan to purchase a vegan meal (if one existed) from McDonalds bearing in mind the extent of their use of meat and fish?

 

 

I would not enter a McDonald's for any reason (except perhaps to use the restroom in an emergency). I dislike the sight and smell of cooked animal flesh.

 

I even avoid the meat and fish aisles in the grocery store. I would just as soon not have to see the dead animal parts.

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#20 Old 02-14-2013, 12:16 PM
 
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So torn...

The ethics of giving money to a company that treats animals badly vs the chance to encourage said company to include more vegan products and maybe limit the ones that cause harm.

 

I think for me it would have to depend on the company.

Schuh which sells leather footwear is 500% more likely to stop selling leather than McDonalds is to stop selling burgers.

 

-Slave

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#21 Old 02-14-2013, 12:40 PM
 
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Sorry, economics is not my strong point.

 

What other factors are at work in capitalism other than the desire for profit?

 

What other economic systems are there?  Exchanging goods/labour/skills for other goods/labour/skills without money?

 

Can carnism not exist outside of capitalism?

 

 

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If that's your justification for buying vegan foods from nonvegan companies that's fine. I support that decision 100%.

 

What I was trying to say though is that veganism can exist in any economic system, not just capitalism. In my view, a vegan is someone who rejects carnism. Veganism is a way of life that abstains from consuming or exploiting animals as much as practical and possible.

 

Also, even in capitalism there are other factors at work than merely consumer demand.

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#22 Old 02-14-2013, 12:48 PM
 
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Well I was pretty much the same with McDonald's and still am.  I've probably set foot in a store about 5 times in 18 years - whether to accompany friends or to buy those delicious apple pies that I was led to believe were vegan but I'm not sure now.  I wouldn't rule out going in there, say if I was out somewhere, there was no vegan place nearby, I was with friends, time was short and there was a vegan option but in reality it'd be a once every few years occasion.

 

I don't know if I've ever noticed a horrible smell in a McDonald's, certainly nothing like the chicken shop near where I used to work.  That was nauseating.  You can't really tell what McDonald's burgers look like can you?  I wouldn't equate them with the animal they came from by appearance!

 

It's impossible to avoid meat/fish aisles in many of our supermarkets but I just ignore the products as best I can.

 

 

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I would not enter a McDonald's for any reason (except perhaps to use the restroom in an emergency). I dislike the sight and smell of cooked animal flesh.

 

I even avoid the meat and fish aisles in the grocery store. I would just as soon not have to see the dead animal parts.

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#23 Old 02-14-2013, 02:18 PM
 
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You have to live within your own limitations. If you have the option of eating at all veg*n restaurants and purchasing goods from all veg*n companies, then I think you should. I don't think ordering a veggie burger from a fast food restaurant and writing them a nice letter does any lick of good, but I also understand that sometimes you're put in certain social situations or are simply running out of time on your lunch break and you have to.

 

There are no vegetarian restaurants here, but I still eat out quite a bit. When I lived in a large city that had a few all veggie restaurants, I never thought twice about eating anywhere else.

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#24 Old 02-14-2013, 03:46 PM
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To me veganism has nothing to do with how my money is spent. It's not a "vote with my dollars." I can see how others think that way but I don't. To me veganism is about abstaining from using animals as commodities as much as possible. I feel like if we think of it as voting then we can justify all sorts of strange ways of spending money and it tends to detract from the basic point of veganism: animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use.

 

An example of how I think veganism is separate from economic choices: I think children can choose to be vegan despite their lack of control over how their family money is spent. At some age (varies) they become capable of making choices about who/what to eat, who/what to wear, who/what to exploit.... They may not have control over what restaurants they go to or where their family shops for groceries, but they can control what they individually support. They can choose a vegan meal at a place like McDonald's or Taco Bell.

 

 

I agree with you that veganism is not completely or fundamentally about economics. However, I do think how one spends their money is an important part of it. In the example of the child, the child is influencing his or her parents to stop purchasing meat for his or her own sake. By becoming a meat eater again, the child would cause the parents to spend more money on meat. Allowing others to buy animal products for you may not directly be a money-spending decision, but it is still a decision influencing the manner in which other people's money gets spent. That said, I do think there are non-economical vegan decisions. Abstaining from hunting is perhaps the most straightforward one.  

 

 

Quote:

I think that those of us who are better able to choose how our money is spent need to work to ensure that all the people who don't have as many choices as us can still make vegan choices. So that means children, people at hospitals, people in prisons, people in the armed forces, and other people who don't have as much freedom as we have should have the option to make vegan choices. We need to do what we can to give them vegan choices and support their vegan choices. Being vegan is about rejecting carnism; it's not about earning and spending money.

 

In other words, I don't think it's fair - to animals nor to people with limited choices - to define veganism as something that requires economic freedom.

 

Well, I tend to see veganism as being about doing no harm, rather than being about bringing about positive change. Many vegans are activists or try to influence friends and family and that's great, but activism isn't what makes them vegan. In terms of economic choices, I try to avoid doing harm to animals with what I choose to buy. I avoid buying animal products, in large part, because I don't want to increase the demand for more animals to be hurt and because I don't want to financially reward animal cruelty. But I don't try to promote or increase the demand for products I like by spending money on them (not knocking those of you who do BTW).

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#25 Old 02-15-2013, 11:15 AM
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What other factors are at work in capitalism other than the desire for profit?

 

Many studies have shown that once a person's basic needs have been met plus some cushion for desired luxuries they tend to be motivated by other things such as social relationships, scientific inquiry, status or power, morals, etc. Since businesses are run by humans there are human factors at play in business decisions. For example, if the CEO of a private business falls in love with a vegan, there's a good chance that business will include more vegan products as a result. Likewise, if a business's R&D (research and development) department becomes fascinated by an exciting method of product creation that just happens to be vegan then you'd likely see that business starting to create more products using that method, simply because the humans responsible for those decisions think it's exciting and new, not because of any desire to please vegan consumers and earn profits from them.

 

Even purely within the realm of simple economics, consumer demand is only part of the equation. Supply is another part. If the supply for animal products is low or more expensive than the supply for vegan products then the market will likely have more vegan products. For example, say that corn and soy weren't subsidized by the government and so the bulk of livestock feed were more costly. That in turn would likely make livestock products more expensive. The market would naturally shift a bit and include more vegan products instead of animal-based products. Vegans could play a role in making that happen by how they influence their political representatives, not how they spend their money at the grocery store. Or... if it involves money, it's in the form of political contributions rather than purchasing products.

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#26 Old 02-15-2013, 01:02 PM
 
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I guess it depends which vegan products you mean that might come about if the production of meat became more costly.  I assume you mean 'hidden vegan' as in Pot Noodles for some reason using soya instead of meat.  Pot Noodle is a classic lazy blokes/slobs' choice.  Such people tend not to be veggie and tend to value meat in their meals.  Yet there doesn't seem to be an issue that they don't contain meat.  Perhaps because the lack of meat is hidden.  Other than such hidden products where it doesn't matter whether it's meat or not to the taste buds I can't imagine vegan foods would come about overtly unless the public had expressed a preference for them.

 

Your first example in paragraph one, whilst certainly possible, is likely to be a pretty rare occurrence, although I accept it is a valid instance of a non consumer-driven factor.  The second example is just an instance of luck rather than design.

 

Thank you for enlightening me a little about possible exceptions to pure profit driving capitalism but I think they're likely drops in the ocean compared to that.

 

 

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Many studies have shown that once a person's basic needs have been met plus some cushion for desired luxuries they tend to be motivated by other things such as social relationships, scientific inquiry, status or power, morals, etc. Since businesses are run by humans there are human factors at play in business decisions. For example, if the CEO of a private business falls in love with a vegan, there's a good chance that business will include more vegan products as a result. Likewise, if a business's R&D (research and development) department becomes fascinated by an exciting method of product creation that just happens to be vegan then you'd likely see that business starting to create more products using that method, simply because the humans responsible for those decisions think it's exciting and new, not because of any desire to please vegan consumers and earn profits from them.

 

Even purely within the realm of simple economics, consumer demand is only part of the equation. Supply is another part. If the supply for animal products is low or more expensive than the supply for vegan products then the market will likely have more vegan products. For example, say that corn and soy weren't subsidized by the government and so the bulk of livestock feed were more costly. That in turn would likely make livestock products more expensive. The market would naturally shift a bit and include more vegan products instead of animal-based products. Vegans could play a role in making that happen by how they influence their political representatives, not how they spend their money at the grocery store. Or... if it involves money, it's in the form of political contributions rather than purchasing products.

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#27 Old 02-15-2013, 01:03 PM
 
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Even purely within the realm of simple economics, consumer demand is only part of the equation. Supply is another part. If the supply for animal products is low or more expensive than the supply for vegan products then the market will likely have more vegan products. For example, say that corn and soy weren't subsidized by the government and so the bulk of livestock feed were more costly. That in turn would likely make livestock products more expensive. The market would naturally shift a bit and include more vegan products instead of animal-based products. Vegans could play a role in making that happen by how they influence their political representatives, not how they spend their money at the grocery store. Or... if it involves money, it's in the form of political contributions rather than purchasing products.

Supply is certainly an important part of the economics but I am extremely skeptical of any kind of action that involves influencing political representatives, especially through contributions. This can only be effective to the extent that political representatives are more than just figureheads and will therefore probably be ineffective at best if even meaningful. I think grass-roots vegan education and activism pursuits are much more effective and they don't require any money or dealing with bureaucracy or compromising.


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#28 Old 02-16-2013, 04:27 PM
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I think grass-roots vegan education and activism pursuits are much more effective and they don't require any money or dealing with bureaucracy or compromising.
That's where I focus my energy.
But I want to correct a misconception.

Effective vegan education does cost money. Luckily, if you can afford the time there are ways to find funding. Example: VegFund.org
If you can't afford the time then please donate to VeganOutreach.org
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#29 Old 02-16-2013, 05:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

Effective vegan education does cost money.

Not necessarily. Discussing veganism amongst family and friends or even strangers can be effective and it doesn't cost any money. You could also share free documentaries like earthlings with others. Even if they don't go vegan, it gets them thinking.


“Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself.”
-Leo Tolstoy

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#30 Old 08-07-2020, 11:52 AM
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This message is to Gingerpie. I used to think it okay to purchase meals from places that served animal products but you really don't know nor do their employees what menu items are vegan or vegetarian. For a long time McDonald's cooked their french fries in animal tallow (beef fat) & even now their fries are NOT vegetarian having "natural beef flavor". I found the same with Taco Bell when I used to order guacamole with my tosados on the road and asked an employee to see the empty cardboard container that it came in finding dairy added. Isn't it high time vegans and strict vegetarians said enough, we shouldn't be the minority anymore people who ingest meat should. They're the ones who got it wrong. Fashion is also changing but slowly because we have the materials it's just those at the top remain dinosaurs still living in the dark ages.
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