Happy Herbivore Is Unhappy Vegan - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 Old 10-12-2011, 12:54 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,726
When did perfection (which is impossible in any form) become such a focus of veganism? I, too, can be critical, especially when it comes to honey and eggs and what-not, but really, have people forgotten the Vegan Society's clause "as far as possible and practicable"? It's the out clause regarding perfection, and yes, there may be degrees of possible and practicable in many people's minds, but even the most ardent vegan cannot escape affecting animals in their everyday lives. By such standards, no one could call themselves a vegan. While I may not agree that eating honey is vegan, I still would be happy with any effort from people, regardless of their labels, to reduce animal consumption/exploitation.
PTree15 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#32 Old 10-12-2011, 12:56 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Envy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Heaven
Posts: 6,548
Of course the vegan issue is pretty mushy with definitions and what not, but I feel like some people can't stand being criticized and is making a hen out of a feather.

"Hell exists not to punish sinners, but to ensure that nobody sins in the first place."
Envy is offline  
#33 Old 10-12-2011, 01:02 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Envy View Post

Of course the vegan issue is pretty mushy with definitions and what not, but I feel like some people can't stand being criticized and is making a hen out of a feather.

True. I think she overreacted by renouncing her veganism. Sticks and stones and all that. I didn't read all the backlash regarding cotton candy, but if it were me, I'd have taken it more as an educational point. I think I would have been happy to have someone point out that sugar sourcing was a vegan concern. I can understand her getting upset over rude posts and such, but it shouldn't have made her throw up her hands and give up simply because someone pointed out an error.
PTree15 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#34 Old 10-12-2011, 01:05 PM
Herbivorous Urchin
 
River's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTree15 View Post

True. I think she overreacted by renouncing her veganism. Sticks and stones and all that. I didn't read all the backlash regarding cotton candy, but if it were me, I'd have taken it more as an educational point. I think I would have been happy to have someone point out that sugar sourcing was a vegan concern. I can understand her getting upset over rude posts and such, but it shouldn't have made her throw up her hands and give up simply because someone pointed out an error.

She didn't exactly 'give up' she's still eating a vegan diet, she just isn't calling herself that anymore to get away from the nutterbutters that freaked out over cotton candy.

Quote:
"You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit.”
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
River is offline  
#35 Old 10-12-2011, 01:07 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post

She didn't exactly 'give up' she's still eating a vegan diet, she just isn't calling herself that anymore to get away from the nutterbutters that freaked out over cotton candy.

Nutterbutters....lol. Thanks for the clarification .
PTree15 is offline  
#36 Old 10-12-2011, 01:16 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Scorpius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Pluto (the planet)
Posts: 6,741
Hmm.....that sounds similar to a thread we had here a little while back.....



At least she did not go the way of the Vegan Lunchbox lady. *shudders*

"you know, nowhere in the bible does it say that jesus was not a raptor"


www.animal-adoptions.org

Scorpius is offline  
#37 Old 10-12-2011, 01:23 PM
Veggie Regular
 
angie54321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post

She didn't exactly 'give up' she's still eating a vegan diet, she just isn't calling herself that anymore to get away from the nutterbutters that freaked out over cotton candy.

I didn't see the posts on Facebook, but she told me in a private email what had been said (and the most appalling comments were not directed at her). I think a lot of vegans would think again about applying the vegan label to themselves if they read them.

It's a shame that a small but vocal minority spoil it for the majority.
angie54321 is offline  
#38 Old 10-12-2011, 01:48 PM
Riot Nrrrd
 
Dave in MPLS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: St Cloud MN
Posts: 3,180
Quote:
she can reach a much wider audience with her books if she broadens the appeal by using the term "plant-based" instead of vegan.

I disgree. 'vegan' is a hot publishing category right now. If there was any pressure from her publisher, it would probably be because the market for vegan cookbooks is saturated (it would get lost in the crowd), not because the word vegan would restrict sales. Just last year at least one cookbook ADDED vegan to the title! (Robin Robertson's Apocalypse Chow was rereleased as Vegan Unplugged.) In pre-internet times you couldn't find a cookbook with 'vegan' in the title (there were vegan cookbooks, but only an extreme minority said 'vegan' on the cover or in the title). Now bookstores have shelves of them.As far as appeal, many folks who have merely passing familiarity with 'vegan' and 'plant-based' probably take them as synonyms, the only difference being 'vegan' is trendier sounding, thus actually more appealing.

Dave in MPLS / DISCLAIMER: I am not an actual rooster.
"It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness"
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 18002738255
Dave in MPLS is offline  
#39 Old 10-12-2011, 02:04 PM
Ankle Biter
 
Poppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Central Virginia, USA
Posts: 9,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post

Hmm.....that sounds similar to a thread we had here a little while back.....



At least she did not go the way of the Vegan Lunchbox lady. *shudders*

What happened to the vegan lunchbox lady? I used to follow her blog, because all her food was so cute.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
Poppy is offline  
#40 Old 10-12-2011, 02:06 PM
Veggie Regular
 
ElaineV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,026
Quote:
Originally Posted by angie54321 View Post

It's a shame that a small but vocal minority spoil it for the majority.

How would you react if you found out that the small but vocal minority of vegans who play vegan police were not actually vegan but were instead anti-vegans who seek to attack, divide and discredit veganism?
Would you suggest others call themselves "herbivore" or "plant-eaters" instead too?

In my experience, the "vegans" who are so hateful in their criticism of things they deem to be nonvegan are so rare in real life that they may as well not even exist. It's almost ALL online, only. There are some vegans who are very critical (I can be that way sometimes - honey is not vegan, period) but when they start using personal attacks and insults then it's not about the issue, it's about the people. Something else is going on when it gets like that. I don't know what it is, but it's something else.

I've been on both sides. I'm somewhere between honey and unsourced sugar. I will not eat honey but I'm OK with white sugar from a source that I don't know. However, I won't go around encouraging others to eat products with sugar in them when there's a chance that sugar isn't vegan. But I might wear shoes that are made of synthetic leather but the type of glue is unknown. I've received criticism from all sides and I still call myself vegan. Why? Because the word vegan is the best word to describe my commitment to respecting animals. It's clear, succinct, honest, and useful.

That said, I understand and employ the strategy of using alternative descriptions when trying to appeal to anyone who has a bias against veganism. I may say that I eat a plant-based diet rather than saying I'm vegan. I may encourage people to reduce their consumption of animal products rather than asking them to go vegan. But I won't encourage that bias by declaring war on vegans and raising a flag for herbivores. That's just icky.
ElaineV is offline  
#41 Old 10-12-2011, 02:13 PM
Veggie Regular
 
delicioso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post

Hmm.....that sounds similar to a thread we had here a little while back.....



At least she did not go the way of the Vegan Lunchbox lady. *shudders*

What happened?
delicioso is offline  
#42 Old 10-12-2011, 02:50 PM
Super Moderator
 
danakscully64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 34,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by angie54321 View Post

I didn't see the posts on Facebook, but she told me in a private email what had been said (and the most appalling comments were not directed at her). I think a lot of vegans would think again about applying the vegan label to themselves if they read them.

It's a shame that a small but vocal minority spoil it for the majority.

Could you PM me the info? If it's private information, I understand.
danakscully64 is offline  
#43 Old 10-12-2011, 03:47 PM
Super Moderator
 
silva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 8,954
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

How would you react if you found out that the small but vocal minority of vegans who play vegan police were not actually vegan but were instead anti-vegans who seek to attack, divide and discredit veganism?
Would you suggest others call themselves "herbivore" or "plant-eaters" instead too?

In my experience, the "vegans" who are so hateful in their criticism of things they deem to be nonvegan are so rare in real life that they may as well not even exist. It's almost ALL online, only. There are some vegans who are very critical (I can be that way sometimes - honey is not vegan, period) but when they start using personal attacks and insults then it's not about the issue, it's about the people. Something else is going on when it gets like that. I don't know what it is, but it's something else.

I've been on both sides. I'm somewhere between honey and unsourced sugar. I will not eat honey but I'm OK with white sugar from a source that I don't know. However, I won't go around encouraging others to eat products with sugar in them when there's a chance that sugar isn't vegan. But I might wear shoes that are made of synthetic leather but the type of glue is unknown. I've received criticism from all sides and I still call myself vegan. Why? Because the word vegan is the best word to describe my commitment to respecting animals. It's clear, succinct, honest, and useful.

That said, I understand and employ the strategy of using alternative descriptions when trying to appeal to anyone who has a bias against veganism. I may say that I eat a plant-based diet rather than saying I'm vegan. I may encourage people to reduce their consumption of animal products rather than asking them to go vegan. But I won't encourage that bias by declaring war on vegans and raising a flag for herbivores. That's just icky.


Yep, that's it!
I've certainly felt as she posts, but I've never experienced vegan police in real life, or any books that have influenced my decision.
Any minority as small as vegans are going to be stereotyped by the wackiest members. Often they aren't even serious contenders, but emotional newbies, or as Elaine points out, "plants" by the omnis!
I do hold back from using the term vegan if I feel it will be misconstrued, and just saying I avoid animal products will keep a more open discussion, but being vegan is not something to be ashamed of, and definitly not something to relinquish to the crazies!
I'm fine with her wanting to be more accepted by everyone and more accessible to omnis, but she doesn't need to badmouth the very word that describes her own (according to her at least) lifestyle.
I live by the principles of avoiding animal exploitation. The details, as in cotton candy type things, I keep to a minimum, but don't feel they're deal breakers. As society becomes more vegan, I'll become more strict, but I'm proud of what vegan means, and I applaud those who do better, but not those who sit in abject judgement.

Like others have mentioned, disqualifying yourself from a movement just to fit only weakens the values you say you believe in.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
silva is offline  
#44 Old 10-12-2011, 03:59 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Forster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,714
I think there is a huge misunderstanding amongst most lay people about what vegan means and I think that misunderstanding carries over (for a while anyway) when they move to a plant based diet. Honestly until recently I always thought vegan meant a vegetarian who doesn't eat dairy or eggs as well as forgoing meat. I've come to understand it's more of an animal rights movement moreso than a way of eating.

My moment of clarity came when I found out "true" vegans don't eat honey.
Forster is offline  
#45 Old 10-12-2011, 04:05 PM
Super Moderator
 
silva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 8,954
I read more comments- this is the BEST response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Envy View Post



Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
silva is offline  
#46 Old 10-12-2011, 04:19 PM
Veggie Regular
 
sallyomally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppy View Post

I like that. I actually have a small sticker on my car that says "herbivore", so I may begin to use that word too.

Sometimes vegans lose sight that that main goal (for most of us, anyway) is to prevent animal suffering. To discourage someone for not checking the source of sugar at a ballpark seems completely absurd to me. If the Happy Herbivore had chosen to eat peanuts instead, the so-called vegan police could reasonably take offense because the harvesting of peanuts obviously causes insect and rodent deaths. How can you ever be vegan enough based on those standards? I'm sure there are animal product molecules by the gazillions just floating in the air at most ballparks and most public events - perhaps all proper vegans should wear masks except at home. Or else be more realistic and supportive of the efforts of others simply to be more compassionate to animals.

Word.
sallyomally is offline  
#47 Old 10-12-2011, 04:28 PM
Veggie Regular
 
sallyomally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,483
I say the nitpickers and naysayers will always be there to ruin the party, so we just do the best we can and be good to each other. Now.Let's all hold hands.
sallyomally is offline  
#48 Old 10-12-2011, 05:17 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,243
wait why was the cottoncandy an issue...because of the sugar & bone charring?? because i eat accidently vegan stuff all the time =|
jessickah is offline  
#49 Old 10-12-2011, 06:02 PM
Newbie
 
Drotar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 75
I've been vegetarian for 8 months now, and I plan on going vegan as soon as I move out of my resisting mothers grasps. The one thing that kind of completely caught me oiff guard was when I first started this I thought veg*ans would welcome me with open arms, but instead I got a lot of flack that I "wasn't doing enough." While I agree that I can do more, it's just not right plausible in my current situation that no one else but myself knows anything about. I don't use animal products, and I don't consume meat. I do eat dairy and eggs but rarely. I find that a lot of vegans don't look at all the positives that I have changed in my life this year, but more on what I haven't yet done. This is an extremely annoying attitude that I find to be very offputting.
Drotar is offline  
#50 Old 10-12-2011, 06:59 PM
Veggie Regular
 
AlixJ18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,196
How is cotton candy not vegan? Or is it a certain type?
AlixJ18 is offline  
#51 Old 10-12-2011, 07:00 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,131
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlixJ18 View Post

How is cotton candy not vegan? Or is it a certain type?

Because some vegans don't eat sugar filtered through bone char, and the cotton candy could have had bone char filtered sugar
disney.jessica is offline  
#52 Old 10-12-2011, 07:26 PM
Veggie Regular
 
sallyomally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drotar View Post

I've been vegetarian for 8 months now, and I plan on going vegan as soon as I move out of my resisting mothers grasps. The one thing that kind of completely caught me oiff guard was when I first started this I thought veg*ans would welcome me with open arms, but instead I got a lot of flack that I "wasn't doing enough." While I agree that I can do more, it's just not right plausible in my current situation that no one else but myself knows anything about. I don't use animal products, and I don't consume meat. I do eat dairy and eggs but rarely. I find that a lot of vegans don't look at all the positives that I have changed in my life this year, but more on what I haven't yet done. This is an extremely annoying attitude that I find to be very offputting.

Well, here's one vegan ( not the only one, I promise) who congratulates you and wishes you well.
sallyomally is offline  
#53 Old 10-12-2011, 08:21 PM
Super Moderator
 
danakscully64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 34,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessickah View Post

wait why was the cottoncandy an issue...because of the sugar & bone charring?? because i eat accidently vegan stuff all the time =|

I'm sure almost all vegans do.
danakscully64 is offline  
#54 Old 10-12-2011, 10:15 PM
Veggie Regular
 
ocrob37's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 471
I have to admit that some of the folks on here come across as pretty exclusive and not encouraging to those who aren't doing everything right to fit into a label. I do not describe myself as a vegetarian and just tell people I eat a plant based diet or that I am eating a Vegetarian diet. I do not eat any animal products, dairy or eggs, but I really don't want to label myself as anything and it could be because of some of the judgmental posts I have read. With that said, I have come across a lot of great people on this sight that go out of their way to help. I learn so much here and really appreciate the great info and help.
ocrob37 is offline  
#55 Old 10-13-2011, 12:39 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Wolfie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post

She didn't exactly 'give up' she's still eating a vegan diet, she just isn't calling herself that anymore to get away from the nutterbutters that freaked out over cotton candy.

Nutterbutters are vegan. :yum:

Oh wait . . . there's that pesky sugar thing.
Wolfie is offline  
#56 Old 10-13-2011, 01:49 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Irizary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post

I don't call myself a vegan anymore, even though everything I eat is plant based. I call myself an herbivore, and I have for a while. The minute you put a 'V' word on anything, everyone, omnivores and otherwise, are there to point out how you're not.

Just curious - not trying to call you out, just interested in how you've been thinking about things and if you've had some change - last I remember you found a source of eggs you thought were o.k. - did the source dry up or have you changed your interest in eating them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Envy View Post

I feel like some people can't stand being criticized and is making a hen out of a feather.

Yeah, honestly I think she needs to buck up if she's going to be a public figure. People are criticized for things all the time. She's overreacting to some anonymous people's opinions.

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

Every animal you eat
was running for her life

Irizary is offline  
#57 Old 10-13-2011, 01:56 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Irizary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,743
So many stupid comments on her site.

Quote:
Yes, a surprising number of the "cruelty-free" crowd are perfectly fine with cruelty as long as it's directed at humans. These are the sort of people who will walk around a homeless person passed out on the sidewalk in order to spit on someone wearing fur.

I've been to a lot of fur protests, and I've never seen anything of the kind - in fact homeless people have joined the protests. That's a typical anti-AR myth.

And, oh please, "cruelty" towards the HappyHerbivore? Someone needs to watch Earthlings to get some perspective. And buck up already. If you don't like some anonymous criticism, brush it off or get off the internet. Really.

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

Every animal you eat
was running for her life

Irizary is offline  
#58 Old 10-13-2011, 02:49 AM
Veggie Regular
 
angie54321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

How would you react if you found out that the small but vocal minority of vegans who play vegan police were not actually vegan but were instead anti-vegans who seek to attack, divide and discredit veganism?
Would you suggest others call themselves "herbivore" or "plant-eaters" instead too?

In my experience, the "vegans" who are so hateful in their criticism of things they deem to be nonvegan are so rare in real life that they may as well not even exist. It's almost ALL online, only. There are some vegans who are very critical (I can be that way sometimes - honey is not vegan, period) but when they start using personal attacks and insults then it's not about the issue, it's about the people. Something else is going on when it gets like that. I don't know what it is, but it's something else.

I've been on both sides. I'm somewhere between honey and unsourced sugar. I will not eat honey but I'm OK with white sugar from a source that I don't know. However, I won't go around encouraging others to eat products with sugar in them when there's a chance that sugar isn't vegan. But I might wear shoes that are made of synthetic leather but the type of glue is unknown. I've received criticism from all sides and I still call myself vegan. Why? Because the word vegan is the best word to describe my commitment to respecting animals. It's clear, succinct, honest, and useful.

That said, I understand and employ the strategy of using alternative descriptions when trying to appeal to anyone who has a bias against veganism. I may say that I eat a plant-based diet rather than saying I'm vegan. I may encourage people to reduce their consumption of animal products rather than asking them to go vegan. But I won't encourage that bias by declaring war on vegans and raising a flag for herbivores. That's just icky.

I have met a few vegans offline that I would not like to encounter again, and whom I felt did the movement harm - but as you say the vast majority are online where they can bully away to their hearts content without having to face the person they are bullying. And it's not only in the vegan movement - I find it on atheist/religious forums regularly.

Regarding your last statement "using alternative descriptions when trying to appeal to anyone who has a bias against veganism" - how do you know who has a bias? Would you assume omnivores have a bias towards vegans? Or vegetarians? Or hunters? I'd be interested in your answer, because I can't tell who is going to be biased until I mention it, so i wonder if I am missing something.

One thing I have noticed is that the vegan police are more abusive to vegetarians and the veganish than they are to omnivores. It does nothing to encourage people to take that further step; instead it makes them move away, or disassociate themselves (the recent discussions between CherryBerry, myself and some vegans on the forum are a case in point).

I appreciate that there are lots of vegans out there in cyberspace or in real life who cringe when the vegan police start shouting on facebook and making vicious comments on article writers or other commentators. But I have seen the bullying and the abuse over and over again. And it doesn't make me want to call myself a vegan ever again no matter how vegan my lifestyle is. Veganish, plant based, vegetarian who doesn't eat dairy and eggs, herbivore - all are fine with me. I'm not declaring a war on vegans - I'm just choosing a different label to identify myself.
angie54321 is offline  
#59 Old 10-13-2011, 03:14 AM
Veggie Regular
 
fadeaway1289's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 10,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by angie54321 View Post

I have met a few vegans offline that I would not like to encounter again, and whom I felt did the movement harm - but as you say the vast majority are online where they can bully away to their hearts content without having to face the person they are bullying. And it's not only in the vegan movement - I find it on atheist/religious forums regularly.

One thing I have noticed is that the vegan police are more abusive to vegetarians and the veganish than they are to omnivores. It does nothing to encourage people to take that further step; instead it makes them move away, or disassociate themselves (the recent discussions between CherryBerry, myself and some vegans on the forum are a case in point).

I've met two in real life and I've purposely gone out of my way to avoid these people and the veg*n events and groups they attend. They were very much the same bullies in real life as they were online.
fadeaway1289 is offline  
#60 Old 10-13-2011, 04:19 AM
 
IamJen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by sallyomally View Post

Well, here's one vegan ( not the only one, I promise) who congratulates you and wishes you well.

Ditto. I'm one of the proponents of keeping the word vegan from being watered down, but I don't dis anyone making changes that benefit animals. I know loads of people (including my two sisters) who eat vegetarian diets, or partly vegetarian, etc. Less animal products consumed = a good thing.

I wonder if all the criticizers check their sugar all the time, everywhere they eat?

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
IamJen is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off