Oreos Are NOT Vegan - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 07-17-2011, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by offthahook View Post

Bone char involves animal exploitation and cruelty. That never has, or never will be vegan.
Bone char is only used as a cheaper filter for sugar because it's [I]already there[I]. No animal is born, nor raised, so we can bleach sugar. Yes, it is exploitative, but not in any way that makes it's use more desired (as in wearing second hand leather), nor used out of neccessity (as gelatin).
I personally buy raw sugar for home use, but I will buy packaged items that list sugar.

The brand of "accessible" veganism that Elaine is promoting on VB, e.g, promoting the buying of non vegan products out of convenience when there are vegan options available, is actually vegetarianism. So please don't BS any of us about that.

I can't help but wonder how your conversations with non-vegans works. For me, I point out the practically, and health benefits of whole foods. I suggest preparations that most people don't often think of, and tell them how easy it is to subsitute eggs and milk. I find practicality outweighs animal rights any day, and helping most people buy less things involving animals adds up to more of a win than having them turn away because all they hear is extremism they can't identify with.

Just how long have you stayed vegan? How does your advocacy work? Your posts make me think of the omnivore arguement of how plant harvesting kills so many small animals and insects, that we shouldn't call ourselves vegan.
Do you ensure all your food and clothes are organic, such as cotton, coffee and chocolate, so animal habitats aren't so endangered?
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#62 Old 07-17-2011, 04:15 PM
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You can call me vegetarian if you like. I don't mind.

But having been vegetarian or vegan for nearly 3 decades, convincing numerous family members to go veg, adopting a number of shelter animals, running a veg blog that attracts thousands of visits daily, and handing out thousands of VO leaflets I bet I've saved far more animals than all the vegans who boycott potentially bone char refined sugar in processed foods ever will. I'm OK with that.

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#63 Old 07-17-2011, 06:38 PM
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vegan for nearly 3 decades,

30 years as a vegan, and I'm assuming some non-veg years added to that number = your age? You look great!!!
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#64 Old 07-17-2011, 07:02 PM
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Thanks. I'm 35. I've been vegetarian or vegan for 29 years. I went veg when I was 6. Or so I thought. I went pescatarian and ate fishes once or twice a month till age 8.
But I should admit, my avatar photo was taken 5 years ago.

I'm sorry I got so defensive about Oreos. I was thinking about it today a bit and I came to realize something. One of the reasons I hang on to Oreos is because when I was a kid we ate Hydrox cookies since Oreos were cooked in lard (NOT vegan). But then some veg*ns, Jewish people, and health advocates convinced Nabisco to stop using lard in Oreos. When that was accomplished it was treated like a victory and in celebration we ate Oreos.

For the record, I think Newman-O's taste better. But they're more expensive and harder to find than Oreos. Plus, when it comes to kid stuff brand names sometimes matter. It's like the difference between Coke and Hansen's Natural Sodas. They're both sugary treats that aren't health foods. One might be slightly more vegan than the other; neither are vegan companies. But one marks you as having a certain political ideology while the other is just seen as "normal" in many contexts. It can be strategic to choose one or the other depending on the situation.
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#65 Old 07-17-2011, 09:27 PM
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Thanks. I'm 35. I've been vegetarian or vegan for 29 years. I went veg when I was 6. Or so I thought. I went pescatarian and ate fishes once or twice a month till age 8.
But I should admit, my avatar photo was taken 5 years ago.

I'm sorry I got so defensive about Oreos. I was thinking about it today a bit and I came to realize something. One of the reasons I hang on to Oreos is because when I was a kid we ate Hydrox cookies since Oreos were cooked in lard (NOT vegan). But then some veg*ns, Jewish people, and health advocates convinced Nabisco to stop using lard in Oreos. When that was accomplished it was treated like a victory and in celebration we ate Oreos.

For the record, I think Newman-O's taste better. But they're more expensive and harder to find than Oreos. Plus, when it comes to kid stuff brand names sometimes matter. It's like the difference between Coke and Hansen's Natural Sodas. They're both sugary treats that aren't health foods. One might be slightly more vegan than the other; neither are vegan companies. But one marks you as having a certain political ideology while the other is just seen as "normal" in many contexts. It can be strategic to choose one or the other depending on the situation.

Very well put!
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#66 Old 07-18-2011, 06:56 AM
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I should try Newman-O's, I know my grocery store has those. Then I can avoid this whole debate next time
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#67 Old 07-18-2011, 08:02 AM
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I can't help but wonder how your conversations with non-vegans works. For me, I point out the practically, and health benefits of whole foods. I suggest preparations that most people don't often think of, and tell them how easy it is to subsitute eggs and milk. I find practicality outweighs animal rights any day, and helping most people buy less things involving animals adds up to more of a win than having them turn away because all they hear is extremism they can't identify with.

I'd like to remind you that this is a vegan forum we're all posting in. It isn't www.let's-not-say-anything-that-makes-the-omni's-feel-excluded.com.

This is OUR safe haven and our place to discuss vegan issues and to encourage and help other people out with living a life that is as cruelty-free as possible.

Vegans do NOT wear, eat or make use of products where cruelty to animals has been involved, and therefore, the posts that some forum contributors have been making lately where they are attempting to play down the exploitation and cruelty involved in manufacturing methods as "insignificant", or encouraging other people to purchase non-vegan products over vegan ones for the sake of "convenience", are really not appreciated and are actually, quite offensive.

And pointing this out as unacceptable is not extremism, it is VEGANISM.
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#68 Old 07-18-2011, 09:17 AM
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Where do you draw your line? Do you abstain from every product labeled with ink or glue where sources are unknown?
Have you considered that wherever you draw your line now, there are/will be others who are/claim to be more strict than you?
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#69 Old 07-18-2011, 11:40 AM
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I'd like to remind you that this is a vegan forum we're all posting in. It isn't www.let's-not-say-anything-that-makes-the-omni's-feel-excluded.com.

This is OUR safe haven and our place to discuss vegan issues and to encourage and help other people out with living a life that is as cruelty-free as possible.

Vegans do NOT wear, eat or make use of products where cruelty to animals has been involved, and therefore, the posts that some forum contributors have been making lately where they are attempting to play down the exploitation and cruelty involved in manufacturing methods as "insignificant", or encouraging other people to purchase non-vegan products over vegan ones for the sake of "convenience", are really not appreciated and are actually, quite offensive.

And pointing this out as unacceptable is not extremism, it is VEGANISM.

I have to disagree. It is extremism.

Here's my take on the subject: I do try to buy vegan products and products that contain evaporated cane sugar or agave nectar as much as possible. But if having an Oreo satisfies me and does not make me feel like I'm sacrificing too much, I think I will be able to continue to live a vegan lifestyle. The one thing I don't want to do is just give up on it because it's too hard to do. The amount of animal products I have consumed in the past 4 years could probably fit in a teaspoon. That's hundreds (maybe even thousands) of pounds less than the average person out there.

If the vegan cause loses just one person who goes back to being an omni, that person will consume more animal products than all the vegans on this board will consume from trace amounts. I think it's best to keep as many people being vegan for as long as possible. And being rude to other vegans on this board doesn't help the cause, either.
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#70 Old 07-18-2011, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

Nishani
Where do you draw your line? Do you abstain from every product labeled with ink or glue where sources are unknown?
Have you considered that wherever you draw your line now, there are/will be others who are/claim to be more strict than you?

Hmm, yes I have thought the same.
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#71 Old 07-18-2011, 11:54 AM
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If the vegan cause loses just one person who goes back to being an omni, that person will consume more animal products than all the vegans on this board will consume from trace amounts. I think it's best to keep as many people being vegan for as long as possible. And being rude to other vegans on this board doesn't help the cause, either.

I needed that!
By nature, I'm not what I'd call strong-willed. When I get stressed, I just the easiest things available, and my attempts at veganism would fail in the past by OCD. I reverted to omni living simply because I couldn't get past an all or nothing attitude. Even processed sugar didn't go far enough, where and what company made them, and the environmental factors would cause me grief.
I feel very proud to be where I'm at now. I slowly moved from lacto veg to what most on this forum see as vegan.
I'm not arguing that sugar processed with by bone char is vegan, I know better. I do feel it's low enough on the radar to where you call openly and honestly call yourself vegan and still use. I certainly don't eat anywhere near the amounts of processed I used to, but even the other day I found a mango sorbet that had non-descript sugar that made sooooo happy.

To me, being vegan is far beyond anything personal-it's the results of my staying vegan that are more important.
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#72 Old 07-18-2011, 11:59 AM
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I did not know oreos were filtered through bone. I am so disappointed now. I wonder I f I go complain and bring in my half a pack of oreos they will refund my money. Damn shame.
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#73 Old 07-18-2011, 12:01 PM
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I should try Newman-O's, I know my grocery store has those. Then I can avoid this whole debate next time

I want to try them, I've never seen them in Canada, maybe they're only sold in America. The dollar stores here sell oreo-like cookies that have vegan ingredients but I'm skeptical as to whether or not the sugar has bone char, since it is cheap to use I figure its in a lot of cheap foods.

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I did not know oreos were filtered through bone. I am so disappointed now. I wonder I f I go complain and bring in my half a pack of oreos they will refund my money. Damn shame.

Probably not, since they aren't sold as a "vegan" food, if you complain to anyone try PETA, its their list that says oreos are vegan.
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#74 Old 07-18-2011, 12:05 PM
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I did not know oreos were filtered through bone. I am so disappointed now. I wonder I f I go complain and bring in my half a pack of oreos they will refund my money. Damn shame.

If you see "sugar" on a package, in America, why would think anything else? Evaporated cane sugar, raw sugar, date sugar...that's all you can depend on being processed without. Do you buy other things with "sugar"?
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#75 Old 07-18-2011, 12:17 PM
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Glad I've have Nishani's posts ignored. Every post I've seen of hers has been either unsupportive or rude.

I think I'm in agreement with Josh James and Elaine in defining one's own veganism within certain guidelines. My boyfriend likes his Oreos but I tend to make home made cookies or other sweets using vegan sugar instead. I certainly wouldn't consider anyone less vegan for eating Oreos and it's cool if people want to avoid them too. If drawing the line elsewhere helps someone remain vegan, then that's great. It's not about absolute purity and it's not like they're secretly sneaking meat, eggs and dairy into their diets.
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#76 Old 07-18-2011, 12:36 PM
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If you see "sugar" on a package, in America, why would think anything else? Evaporated cane sugar, raw sugar, date sugar...that's all you can depend on being processed without. Do you buy other things with "sugar"?

Yeah not many things but a few here and there.
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#77 Old 07-18-2011, 12:41 PM
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If you see "sugar" on a package, in America, why would think anything else? Evaporated cane sugar, raw sugar, date sugar...that's all you can depend on being processed without. Do you buy other things with "sugar"?

Most of the stats I read agreed that in America its about 50/50 for companies that process their sugar with bone char vs companies that don't.
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#78 Old 07-18-2011, 01:15 PM
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Newman O's are not very good IMO. His spaghetti sauce is pretty good though.
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#79 Old 07-18-2011, 04:44 PM
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I feel bad, I ate an entire pack of oreos with my boyfriend over the weekend.

I guess I should feel bad for being a glutton as well.
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#80 Old 07-18-2011, 04:57 PM
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I feel so bad , I had no idea oreos weren't vegan, oh man
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#81 Old 07-18-2011, 07:28 PM
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^So... you won't eat anything if all the other ingrediants are vegan, but list "sugar" without specification? Like pretty much every baked good and candy that isn't specifically vegan or organic?
I buy organic chocolate, but that's because of environmental concerns, and concern over workers, not sugar.
If Oreos freak you out now, be ready to give up everything that doesn't say things like "evaporated cane juice", turbino, or other non processed sugar.

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#82 Old 07-18-2011, 08:22 PM
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Glad I've have Nishani's posts ignored. Every post I've seen of hers has been either unsupportive or rude.

It's not being rude to point out practices that are obviously unvegan.

Why should nishani or any other vegan be supportive in the vegan forum to people who say they use products that have been made with cruelty and who are acting pretty flippant about it? I see it as pretty rude that some of these people like you, then start accusing nishani and other posters of being a 'purist' or the 'vegan police' just because they dare to call an unvegan practice exactly what it is, unvegan. It's a plain fact that oreo's made in America are not vegan. Either buy them or don't, but don't start acting all hurt when this fact gets brought to your attention.
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#83 Old 07-18-2011, 08:50 PM
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It's not being rude to point out practices that are obviously unvegan.

Why should nishani or any other vegan be supportive in the vegan forum to people who say they use products that have been made with cruelty and who are acting pretty flippant about it? I see it as pretty rude that some of these people like you, then start accusing nishani and other posters of being a 'purist' or the 'vegan police' just because they dare to call an unvegan practice exactly what it is, unvegan. It's a plain fact that oreo's made in America are not vegan. Either buy them or don't, but don't start acting all hurt when this fact gets brought to your attention.

Just a question. Sure, it's possible to avoid non-vegan sugar(I haven't seen any argument that bone char is vegan) but in the context of the bigger picture, is it a battle that needs to be picked, at this time? Besides, vegan products aren't inherently cruelty-free.
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#84 Old 07-18-2011, 08:52 PM
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Besides, vegan products aren't inherently cruelty-free.

If you keep expanding on that, vegans will have to go back to collecting nuts and berries and living in caves.
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#85 Old 07-18-2011, 09:09 PM
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If you keep expanding on that, vegans will have to go back to collecting nuts and berries and living in caves.

Well, yes and no. Veganism, of course, focuses on non-human animals, with good reason. Why that would ever be synonymous with "cruelty-free", I don't know. If I were I really trying to be cruelty-free, I probably wouldn't eat sugar.
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#86 Old 07-18-2011, 09:24 PM
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Why that would ever be synonymous with "cruelty-free"

Can you point out which post has claimed that vegan living is cruelty free because I can't find it?
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#87 Old 07-18-2011, 09:28 PM
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I wasn't saying lets pick a battle with kraft about this... just letting people know this specific product is made with sugar that is processed with bone char. And to people asking where do you draw the line regarding animal products, where do you draw the line eating products containing animals? I'm not trying to be the vegan police or come across as an extremist but will you eat gelatin or drink alcohol containing inglis? Oreos are not a necessity in life.

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#88 Old 07-18-2011, 09:37 PM
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There are different levels of cruelty. Here's my thought process on the subject:

1. The obvious: Meat. It is a carcass of an animal that has obviously been killed.
2. Non-meat animal products: Dairy, eggs and honey. The extraction of these items could be cruelty free, but most often aren't.
3. Animal by-products: Gelatin, casein, glycerin, shellac, etc. This is the "gross" category and most people (even non-vegetarians) don't like the sound of them.
4. Trace ingredients: This would include bone char and other small portions of cross contamination (cooking veg*n food on a grill that hasn't been thoroughly cleaned and food processed in a factory that also uses milk, eggs or fish). If you want to avoid this category, you should never eat at a regular restaurant or eat mainstream packaged food ever again. You can only eat at 100% pure vegan restaurants and 100% vegan certified foods. This will limit you severely. And this is the level that is being debated in this thread.
5. Ingredients that cause indirect harm: Palm oil (vegan in itself, but considered bad for displacing wildlife) and production of vegetables (you know millions of insects and other small wildlife are getting crushed by farm equipment by planting and harvesting). There is also the human factor of ethical working conditions. Humans are animals, too. So, if workers are mistreated or regularly injured by bad practices, you may not want to be buying those products.

I draw my line at #3. No ingredients from #1 to #3, for sure. But I still try my best to avoid #4 & #5. That's about the best way I can present my feelings on this subject.
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#89 Old 07-18-2011, 09:59 PM
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Can you point out which post has claimed that vegan living is cruelty free because I can't find it?

I "bolded" what specifically I was referring to. Not intending to imply anyone said vegan = cruelty-free, but to point to all vegans drawing a line somewhere. Looking at how most sugar is produced, should any of us eat it, ethically? Why anyone would choose to pick a battle between the people on their side? I hate the rampant exploitation of humans and non-humans alike. But if I worried about all of it, I'd worry myself into an early grave. For the record, I don't even like Oreos.

...Seriously going to bed now.
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#90 Old 07-18-2011, 10:18 PM
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I "bolded" what specifically I was referring to. Not intending to imply anyone said vegan = cruelty-free, but to point to all vegans drawing a line somewhere. Looking at how most sugar is produced, should any of us eat it, ethically? Why anyone would choose to pick a battle between the people on their side? I hate the rampant exploitation of humans and non-humans alike. But if I worried about all of it, I'd worry myself into an early grave. For the record, I don't even like Oreos.

...Seriously going to bed now.

It ultimately is anyones choice what they chose to eat and not to eat. I'm not saying that if one eats oreos they should stop calling themselves vegan. The bone char wouldn't even be in the sugar if the slaughter of animals for meat didn't exist. Its a personal choice at the end of the day, like anything else.
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