VIDEO - "I'm Vegan: Gary Francione" - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 04-29-2011, 05:53 PM
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Those of you who know Epski, know he's been working on a documentary titled "I'm Vegan." He just released this interview from the film, with Gary Francione. It's good stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5pDU1yMWMw

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#2 Old 04-29-2011, 08:04 PM
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Never heard of him, but I like him. Definitely looking forward to the documentary!
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#3 Old 04-29-2011, 08:54 PM
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Epski is a long-time VB member, who is an independent film maker, and a fierce advocate for Vegan activism. He's the president of the Boston Vegan Association, and an owner of the all-vegan pizza restaurant, Peace O Pie, in Boston. He's also a good friend.

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#4 Old 04-29-2011, 09:11 PM
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Gotta laugh at the image of inviting Ingrid Newkirk to your house for dinner and her raiding your kitchen and throwing out your milk and ice cream! Not the sort of conversion technique anyone on this forum would recommend. And yet look what resulted.

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#5 Old 04-29-2011, 10:00 PM
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I <3 Gary Francione, he's awesome.

The documentary looks pretty good. I'm interested to see who else was interviewed.
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#6 Old 04-29-2011, 10:17 PM
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That was amazing

"If we could live happy and healthy lives without harming others... why wouldn't we?" - Edgars Mission
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#7 Old 04-29-2011, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by KarmaVegan View Post

I <3 Gary Francione, he's awesome.

The documentary looks pretty good. I'm interested to see who else was interviewed.

Here are a few more interviews from the film.
http://www.youtube.com/user/vegandocumentary

Epski traveled across the country interviewing people for the film. I can't wait to see it all come together!

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#8 Old 04-29-2011, 11:18 PM
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love gary francione. a lot people seem to give him crap but he's just very logical.

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#9 Old 04-30-2011, 05:19 AM
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The most logical guy ever (at least as far as animal exploitation is concerned ^^). I love his work.

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#10 Old 04-30-2011, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bronzebed View Post

love gary francione. a lot people seem to give him crap but he's just very logical.

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7737...welfarist-scum



Oh by the way, I check by the yahoo groups for the Adopt A College campaign on a daily basis. A young woman leafleted the college Francione actually teaches at, and most of the students there had no idea what was happening in factory farms. Perhaps what the animal protection movement needs more of is not logical professors who reach 30 or so students a year but dedicated activists from all walks of life actually raising awareness about these issues all across the world.

There's a certain logic to that line of thinking to, doncha think?

But what do I know? I'm new welfarist scum and I don't blog.

Tam! RUGH!
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#11 Old 04-30-2011, 07:58 AM
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Gotta laugh at the image of inviting Ingrid Newkirk to your house for dinner and her raiding your kitchen and throwing out your milk and ice cream! Not the sort of conversion technique anyone on this forum would recommend. And yet look what resulted.

I didn't know that Ingrid Newkirk was the person who first introduced Gary Francione to veganism. And now she is his archenemy.

In any case, I think the very fact that Ingrid Newkirk would think it was a good idea to trash the food in a refrigerator when a guest in someone's home, is indicative of the personality type which later allowed her to think that all her campaigns and publicity stunts are a good idea.

It is amazing the difference good or bad leadership can make in a social movement. We have seen what can be accomplished by leaders like Martin Luther King at one end of the spectrum, and we have now seen what can be accomplished by the likes of Ingrid Newkirk on the other.

Well, at least she is not killing puppies and kittens.

Oh wait...

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#12 Old 04-30-2011, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh James xVx View Post

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7737...welfarist-scum



Oh by the way, I check by the yahoo groups for the Adopt A College campaign on a daily basis. A young woman leafleted the college Francione actually teaches at, and most of the students there had no idea what was happening in factory farms. Perhaps what the animal protection movement needs more of is not logical professors who reach 30 or so students a year but dedicated activists from all walks of life actually raising awareness about these issues all across the world.

There's a certain logic to that line of thinking to, doncha think?

But what do I know? I'm new welfarist scum and I don't blog.


In this sense, Gary Francione and Ingrid Newkirk are polar opposites. Each possessing the one half of the puzzle that the other one is missing.

Vision without action is a daydream.

Action without vision is a nightmare.

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#13 Old 04-30-2011, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bronzebed View Post

love gary francione. a lot people seem to give him crap but he's just very logical.

There are two parts to logic: the structure of the argument and the truth of the premises. Gary Francione uses the right structure. It's just the other part where he fails.
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#14 Old 04-30-2011, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh James xVx View Post


Oh by the way, I check by the yahoo groups for the Adopt A College campaign on a daily basis. A young woman leafleted the college Francione actually teaches at, and most of the students there had no idea what was happening in factory farms. Perhaps what the animal protection movement needs more of is not logical professors who reach 30 or so students a year but dedicated activists from all walks of life actually raising awareness about these issues all across the world.

The man has published six books about animal rights, has a podcast, and a blog. Not to mention that at the end of the interview he talks about leafleting and there are pamphlets on his website. He's done many many interviews and debates about his animal rights. If you looked at his forum, you would notice that there are people from all across the world on his website. Gary Francione has influenced a lot of people, including myself, to realize that it's logically wrong to hurt animals.

If he walked around talking about factory farms to the students at his college, not in his classes, he would probably get fired. The parents wouldn't like that.
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#15 Old 04-30-2011, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh James xVx View Post

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7737...welfarist-scum



Oh by the way, I check by the yahoo groups for the Adopt A College campaign on a daily basis. A young woman leafleted the college Francione actually teaches at, and most of the students there had no idea what was happening in factory farms. Perhaps what the animal protection movement needs more of is not logical professors who reach 30 or so students a year but dedicated activists from all walks of life actually raising awareness about these issues all across the world.

There's a certain logic to that line of thinking to, doncha think?

But what do I know? I'm new welfarist scum and I don't blog.

Haters gonna hate.

You seem to talk about factory farming a lot. I, on the other hand, do not think factory farming is the ultimate problem. Animal commodification and exploitation is the problem.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#16 Old 04-30-2011, 10:06 AM
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If he walked around talking about factory farms to the students at his college, not in his classes, he would probably get fired. The parents wouldn't like that.


I have never heard of a professor getting fired for handing out pamphlets on the campus.

Also, I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the vast majority of people who read Gary Francione's work are already vegan.


-Eugene

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#17 Old 04-30-2011, 10:22 AM
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I don't really understand this need to compare yourself to a legal/philosophical scholar in a dick-measuring contest, where instead of talking about penis size you're talking about the number of converts or how many leaflets you've given.

I have no doubts that many grassroots activists have converted more people than Francione or Regan have. I would even dare to guess that Francione wouldn't disagree with that, given that he emphasizes how there are no leaders in the movement etc. That doesn't prevent me from appreciating the work Francione and Regan have done in their own contexts, even though I disagree with them on some things (especially with Francione). They advance AR issues in an academic context. Others advance AR issues in the artworld. Others in their family life. Everyone does their part. And while it might be best if everyone's part was optimized to make the largest difference possible, I'm still happy that people are at least doing something.

"and I stand

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#18 Old 04-30-2011, 10:43 AM
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Not to toot my own horn too much, but if you compare my website http://www.vegansoapbox.com to Francione's website http://www.abolitionistapproach.com with any major website ranking tool, you can see just how limited Francione's reach is. Also try typing in this website (veggieboards) and maybe vegan.com or peta.com and see how many hits they get. They get way way way more than either my site or Francione's site.

Francione preaches to the converted.

You can read my criticisms of Francione in more detail at these links if you're interested:
http://www.vegansoapbox.com/criticism-is-not-enough/
http://www.vegansoapbox.com/logical-persuasion/
http://www.vegansoapbox.com/property...nd-liberation/
http://www.vegansoapbox.com/readability-rights/
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#19 Old 04-30-2011, 10:45 AM
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Seven, as I am sure you are aware, one of the common criticisms of Garry Francione's ideas is that it implies that there is nothing for people to do as activists, other than sit around and wait for the world to become vegan. I don't think this criticism is valid, but I can see how Garry Francione's behavior invites this criticism.


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#20 Old 04-30-2011, 10:49 AM
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Seven, as I am sure you are aware, one of the common criticisms of Garry Francione's ideas is that it implies that there is nothing for people to do as activists, other than sit around and wait for the world to become vegan. I don't think this criticism is valid, but I can see how Garry Francione's behavior invites this criticism.

I don't see how Gary Francione writing about the theory of animal rights rather than leafletting around campuses invites the criticism you mention. It seems to me, rather, that people who disagree with Francione's arguments or are offended by his approach (which I do think is often a problematic approach), turn it into pretty much a textbook case of an ad hominem argument, where Francione's choices as an individual are seen as relevant for assessing the legitimacy of his arguments.

The argument you're presenting seems all the more absurd to me, given that Francione's focus is exactly on vegan advocacy, and its superiority to everything else.

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#21 Old 04-30-2011, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Eugene View Post

I have never heard of a professor getting fired for handing out pamphlets on the campus.

Also, I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the vast majority of people who read Gary Francione's work are already vegan.


-Eugene

I don't know of any professors off the top of my head who were fired for leafleting. However, I have heard of quite a few who were fired for their beliefs. Colleges are about money. If Gary Francione went around talking to students, who were not in his class, about animal rights it would be a big problem. Many parents would not want to send their child or their money to a school where a professor was outwardly displaying his animal rights views and many benefactors who do not agree with Francione would not want to make donations to the college.

Most people are not going to become vegan just from Francione's work. However, they may get a leaflet, find it interesting, and pick up a book. Or they may read a book then see a movie and then make the decision. I have participated in my fair share of grassroots campaigns. I understand the importance of one to one conversation, however, I have never received a leaflet about veganism. I have never even seen a leafleter for veganism. Shortly after becoming vegan, I did however stumble upon Francione's podcast. It helped to reaffirm my believes and know that there were other vegans who shared the same beliefs as me. Francione's work is an important part of the vegan movement. We need writers and speakers, as much as we need leafleters.
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#22 Old 04-30-2011, 11:45 AM
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The very fact that you have been exposed to books and podcasts on veganism, but never to a vegan leaflet or to a vegan leafleter, is itself an indication that there is probably more of a shortage of leafleters than there is of writers or speakers.

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#23 Old 04-30-2011, 11:46 AM
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The very fact that you have been exposed to books and podcasts on veganism, but never to a vegan leaflet or to a vegan leafleter, is itself an indication that there is probably more of a shortage of leafleters than there is of writers or speakers.

I think it's good, in that case, that people like Francione are singing the praises of vegan advocacy, therefore advocating for more people to become vegan advocates, including leafleters.

"and I stand

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made of weak and useless men"

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#24 Old 04-30-2011, 12:20 PM
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The very fact that you have been exposed to books and podcasts on veganism, but never to a vegan leaflet or to a vegan leafleter, is itself an indication that there is probably more of a shortage of leafleters than there is of writers or speakers.

I disagree. It just shows that writers and speakers have just as much influence as leafleters to turn people vegan. If all the writers and speakers quit working on their books and speeches to leaflet there would still be many people who never encounter a leafleter and there wouldn't be those books on veganism or the videos for them to find. And if an existing vegan needed reassurance it is far easier to pick up a book or listen to a podcast than to hunt down a leafleter to talk too.
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#25 Old 04-30-2011, 12:51 PM
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Francione does encourage leafleting.

He encourages a kind of leafleting that is likely not very effective because the leaflets require a grad student reading level to understand. Just copy the text from the pamphlet he recommends and put into a readability tool.

He discourages a kind of leafleting that is likely to be effective because those leaflets include photos, food suggestions, and focus on the acts that help animals most (avoiding consuming animal products or participating in animal exploitation) rather than on the beliefs or worldviews that some vegans have.
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#26 Old 04-30-2011, 01:35 PM
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He discourages a kind of leafleting that is likely to be effective because those leaflets include photos, food suggestions, and focus on the acts that help animals most (avoiding consuming animal products or participating in animal exploitation) rather than on the beliefs or worldviews that some vegans have.

That claim would be a bit more believable with some kind of source for it.

Why are such misrepresentations needed in this debate? Francione uses them, do you need to use them too?

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#27 Old 04-30-2011, 04:28 PM
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There are two parts to logic: the structure of the argument and the truth of the premises. Gary Francione uses the right structure. It's just the other part where he fails.

Elaine, I think I know what you mean by this but I'm not positive. Is his premise that nearly everyone believes it is immoral to cause needless suffering and death to animals? I could believe that most people, when pressed,would admit they feel entitled to use animals any way they want. Most people would not directly torment animals for their own amusement, but they also feel that circuses are a net good even while aware that torment is involved in training circus animals. And most people are also aware that some dog breeds routinely have their ears and tails partially amputated for no reason that benefits the dog, because the breeders and owners want the dogs to look a certain way. Just those two examples blow his premise out of the water for me, not to mention profound disagreement in our culture over the word "needless."
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#28 Old 04-30-2011, 04:38 PM
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I could believe that most people, when pressed,would admit they feel entitled to use animals any way they want.

That's just weird. You must be hanging out with very interesting people, if they were willing to say that they are entitled to use animals any way they want: including those cases that get you arrested on animal cruelty charges. That must mean they have no moral regard even for the law, then, because some uses of animals break it.

Modern Western culture, in relation to other species, makes distinctions between acceptable and unacceptable animal use, and frames that difference in terms of "unnecessary suffering". That distinction is an entirely arbitrary one, and the 'unnecessary' pretty much meaningless, but that is really Francione's point.

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#29 Old 04-30-2011, 05:21 PM
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Thank you Eric Prescott, can't wait to see the finished film.
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#30 Old 04-30-2011, 07:43 PM
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That claim would be a bit more believable with some kind of source for it.

Maybe there was some miscommunication. I meant to say:
He discourages a kind of leafleting that is likely to be effective. That kind of leafleting is likely effective because those leaflets include photos, food suggestions, and focus on the acts that help animals most (avoiding consuming animal products or participating in animal exploitation) rather than on the beliefs or worldviews that some vegans have.

Francione thinks Vegan Outreach is a "new welfarist" organization and is "part of the problem not part of the solution." (sources)

Quote:
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Elaine, I think I know what you mean by this but I'm not positive.

His unfounded premise is that "improving animal welfare makes people feel less uncomfortable about animal exploitation."
He admits there is no proof for this claim () but it's essential to almost all of his writings.
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