Yet Another Amusing Ex-Vegan Article - Filled with pretentiousness! - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 03-21-2011, 08:13 PM
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http://ecosalon.com/reasons-not-to-be-vegan/

So overall, I've read worse. There are even a few points I don't fully disagree with. But OH MY, what is it about being a former vegan that seems to make people so verbose and full of themselves? Check out this first paragraph, it's quite the ridiculous mouthful:

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For nearly a decade, I was an evangelical vegan a born-again, plant-powered fundamentalist, resplendent in my animal-rights halo and heavenly faux-fur robes. I fiercely guarded my inflexible morality, never daring to reexamine the orthodoxys most illogical presuppositions.



Anywho, I typed up a quick rebuttal. I couldn't believe she started with the oyster thing. Wild oysters are almost completely extinct for pete's sake, encouraging people to eat more isn't exactly helpful. And she claims farming oysters is helpful to the environment even though they choke out native mollusk species and disrupt the movement of other marine animals like fish and otters.

Also, her view on honey was pretty amusing too. She was basically saying "Oh yeah, commercial honey production totally hurts the bees and stresses them right out. MEH."

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Oysters are now considered functionally extinct, humans have overfished them and destroyed the reefs they are harvested from to the point that there are 80% less than there used to be. THAT is a very good argument to not eat oysters, whether or not they can feel pain buying them is still contributing to environmental devastation.

Also the two points about processed foods say nothing about veganism itself, just that processed foods are bad and we all already know that. It's totally possible to be vegan and eat nothing but healthy whole foods, no faux or soy products required.

I wouldn't wear vintage leather because it's dead animal skin, and that's extremely gross and not very fashionable at all. It also encourages other people to buy leather who don't necessarily know you only buy vintage. I wouldn't wear wool because I don't need to and you can never really be sure people are treating the animals ethically unless you go to visit the farms yourself, and once again other people won't know you made sure to get the fancy ethical wool, they'll just see wool and assume that's okay since you say you care about animals.

Backyard chickens and bees and goats I have less of an issue with as long as the animals are being treated humanely and not slaughtered in the end, but considering how most people treat their companion animals and how many abuse cases there are just for dogs and cats I wouldn't trust the average person to not abuse chickens or goats or bees in the same way.

I just have no interest in using animal products at this point, even if I could be assured they were ethically produced, what's the point? I get everything I need and so much more from plants, anything less would feel like some kind of de-evolution.

Thoughts? Opinions? These articles invariably lead to a lot of fun discussion.

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#2 Old 03-21-2011, 08:17 PM
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Most vegans I know wouldn't touch faux-fur. Just saying. And, I didn't really know fur was associated with heaven. Fascinating.

"It is far better to be happy than to have your bodies act as graveyards for animals. Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds, nuts and vegetables, without flesh"- Clement of Alexandria
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#3 Old 03-21-2011, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Rotoshave View Post

Most vegans I know wouldn't touch faux-fur. Just saying. And, I didn't really know fur was associated with heaven. Fascinating.

Very true, I don't wear the stuff. I think it looks tacky even when it is truly faux. And I have heard WAY too many terrifying stories of real fur being hidden as faux so people will actually buy it, I wouldn't want to take the risk that I'm wearing something from a real dead animal.

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#4 Old 03-21-2011, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Rotoshave View Post

Most vegans I know wouldn't touch faux-fur. Just saying. And, I didn't really know fur was associated with heaven. Fascinating.

Guess I'm not 'most vegans'. Love my faux-leopard print blanket!

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#5 Old 03-21-2011, 08:27 PM
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heh, i kind of like most of what he says. most not all. oysters for example are now my struggle area. well not really, they were because of the reasons he lists. but i decided to not eat them because of environment. but i do agree about pet hens that lay eggs. and about re wearing leather. i am not buying (trying, make some mistakes with shoes) any new leather products but i don't feel like throwing out the things that i have. he doesn't seem to go back into supporting factory farming, just to eat things like eggs from hens that are on backyards. not so bad, nothing like exvegans that eat bacon and say how everyone shopuld do it too
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#6 Old 03-21-2011, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post

Guess I'm not 'most vegans'. Love my faux-leopard print blanket!

I always thought faux-animal print stuff was less creepy looking than the faux fur trim people have on their hoods. It's much more obvious that it's not real, I used to have a leopard print blanket too.

(My dislike for fake fur is just a personal preference thing anyway, as long as it is truly fake then more power to ya!)

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#7 Old 03-21-2011, 08:34 PM
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heh, i kind of like most of what he says. most not all. oysters for example are now my struggle area. well not really, they were because of the reasons he lists. but i decided to not eat them because of environment. but i do agree about pet hens that lay eggs. and about re wearing leather. i am not buying (trying, make some mistakes with shoes) any new leather products but i don't feel like throwing out the things that i have. he doesn't seem to go back into supporting factory farming, just to eat things like eggs from hens that are on backyards. not so bad, nothing like exvegans that eat bacon and say how everyone shopuld do it too

Yeah, this is by no means the worst one I've ever read. It's a million times better than that Voracious Bacon Lover girl with her descriptive meat orgasms

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#8 Old 03-21-2011, 09:37 PM
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Sorry. I was going to read the article, but I was distracted by the hard-hitting piece on Snooki.
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#9 Old 03-22-2011, 04:03 AM
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I agree with the point about back-yard chickens; if I ever have a house of my own with a spacious back garden, I'd have a rescue hen or two and I'd probably eat the occasional egg. If they're well looked after, and cared for as pets rather than purely as a food source, I don't see the ethical problem with that. And I see the point about the second-hand leather, I just wouldn't do it myself. Leather is disgusting. But the rest of it is a bit silly. Especially the honey part.


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#10 Old 03-22-2011, 05:19 AM
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I predict we will see more and more of these type of articles as veganism gains in popularity. They are quite annoying! I don't understand why people have to justify their decisions to eat animals and animal products to others by posting articles and writing about it in blogs. It is obvious self-justification for going back on a decision to eat vegan, pathetic.
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#11 Old 03-22-2011, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by luvourmother View Post

I predict we will see more and more of these type of articles as veganism gains in popularity. They are quite annoying! I don't understand why people have to justify their decisions to eat animals and animal products to others by posting articles and writing about it in blogs. It is obvious self-justification for going back on a decision to eat vegan, pathetic.

Agreed.

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#12 Old 03-22-2011, 08:42 AM
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People need to justify it to themselves because a small part of them - the ethically sound part! - is freaking out and knows their backstepping is a bad thing. It's sad, but we'll definitely see a lot more of this, along with 'vegan purge diets' - something I truly don't understand because if you realise your general diet is poor and that the vegan diet is a purge... why not just stick to it? People need to get more backbone.

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#13 Old 03-22-2011, 09:13 AM
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People need to justify it to themselves because a small part of them - the ethically sound part! - is freaking out and knows their backstepping is a bad thing. It's sad, but we'll definitely see a lot more of this, along with 'vegan purge diets' - something I truly don't understand because if you realise your general diet is poor and that the vegan diet is a purge... why not just stick to it? People need to get more backbone.

+1
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#14 Old 03-22-2011, 10:58 AM
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I totally had deja vu about this thread...weird... Anyway, I hate when people talk about faux meats, snack packs, and soy this and that. The only fake meat I ever eat is some "bacon" that I put on my "blt's" (Toast, peanut butter, tomatoes, spinach, and "bacon" - Really good!) I don't use any fake cheeses or anything like that. The only "fake" stuff I really use is earth balance instead of butter...which I can't see how it could be any worse for you than butter, and almond milk instead of milk. I highly doubt that these "substitutions" are negatively affecting me.

Oysters are just nasty, look at them.

The only time that I think I would be okay using wool is if I was going out to my back yard and shearing my own sheep because it was necessary for their health and happiness. If this were the case, I would use it to make items for my own use only. Like a comment on the article said, I don't think that you should trust someone when they claim they are doing things ethically. After all, many people look at Horizon as an ethical company because the milk is organic etc. I'm sure they would be surprised if they really knew how the company runs. Bottom line, unless I can ensure that the wool is "ethical", I don't want to use it.

When people make the argument for consuming milk, eggs, etc if the animals are well taken care of I still don't think that it's ours to take. Like many people have pointed out, even if I had a chicken in my back yard that was producing eggs everyday a) I still wouldn't want to eat the egg, yuck and b) it is beneficial for the chicken to eat the egg . And milk is still being produced for one reason - to help babies grow and fatten up. Last time I checked...most people aren't looking to fatten up...

And leather, no matter how old, is still dead.
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#15 Old 03-22-2011, 11:15 AM
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i didn't even know that chickens eat their eggs. do they eat all of them? if there are some left they don't really care what happens to them i assume. although i see why people may think it is gross
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#16 Old 03-22-2011, 11:15 AM
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I think this person makes some valid points, I agree that we need to become less hung up on "is it vegan" and more hung up on "is it ethical?", it matters less if you confirm to veganism and more if you're thinking through your choices ethically.

However their reasoning behind not being vegan is invalid - for two reasons. The first being they seem to assumue you must eat faux-whatever, and processed food to be vegan. You do not, and infact, a lot of people don't for purely taste reasons, 95% of what I eat doesn't contain faux anything (exceptions being rice milk, soya margerine and the occational soya sausage). If you think these products are unethical, you don't need to give up being vegan to be more ethical, that's selling your house because you have a leaky tap! Secondly, the commercial non vegan versions are even less ethical, they'd only be arguably more ethical - from a purley environmental stance - if you had your own sustainable produce (ie: if you raised your own animals etc). Since this isn't true for most people, or even workable for most people, veganism WITH all the faux products is still more ethical than not being vegan and eating the same sorts of foods.

In all, the solution is surely to change what you eat, and reap the ethical benefits of local produce, whole foods, etc, AND veganism - than for some unknown reason believe you need to choose between the two.
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#17 Old 03-22-2011, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvourmother View Post

I predict we will see more and more of these type of articles as veganism gains in popularity. They are quite annoying! I don't understand why people have to justify their decisions to eat animals and animal products to others by posting articles and writing about it in blogs. It is obvious self-justification for going back on a decision to eat vegan, pathetic.

You said it.

The article is blithe, pompous posturing.

PS Werewolf Girl - I 'liked' your comment. I know that makes your day.
PSS Actually I 'liked' quite a few of the comments.

There is no such thing as truth. People who really know what happened aren't talking. And the people who don't have a clue, you can't shut them up. - Tom Waits
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#18 Old 03-22-2011, 12:41 PM
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i didn't even know that chickens eat their eggs. do they eat all of them? if there are some left they don't really care what happens to them i assume. although i see why people may think it is gross

They don't naturally, but a lot of times you will find people complaining about their chickens eating their own eggs. This comes from bad husbandry and/or poor nutrition. If you have rescue chickens, they are most likely deficient in calcium, protein, and other nutrients and everytime they lay eggs it depletes these nutrients more. Feeding them back their eggs is a great way to get this nutrition back to them.
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#19 Old 03-22-2011, 01:04 PM
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Erik Marcus, on vegan.com, titled this "
An Ex-Vegan Buys a Thesaurus"

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#20 Old 03-22-2011, 09:09 PM
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Can I just roll my eyes?

Went vegetarian on the 27th December 2013!
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#21 Old 03-22-2011, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Herbivorous B.I.G. View Post

Sorry. I was going to read the article, but I was distracted by the hard-hitting piece on Snooki.



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#22 Old 03-22-2011, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AeryFairy View Post

I agree with the point about back-yard chickens; if I ever have a house of my own with a spacious back garden, I'd have a rescue hen or two and I'd probably eat the occasional egg. If they're well looked after, and cared for as pets rather than purely as a food source, I don't see the ethical problem with that. And I see the point about the second-hand leather, I just wouldn't do it myself. Leather is disgusting. But the rest of it is a bit silly. Especially the honey part.

I agree about backyard chickens, I don't have a problem with someone eating eggs from their rescue hens if they treat them as beloved pets and don't ever slaughter them. I take care of companion animals myself, the only difference is they don't produce anything. I really have no desire to eat eggs myself though, I'm finding eating plants to be extremely awesome these days

I don't think every single case where humans use products that come from animals has to be unethical, I can see what the writer is saying there. The problem is those cases are the tiniest fraction of a fraction of the whole. I could see a world where most people are vegan and some are vegetarians who keep backyard chickens or pet goats or whatever being a reality someday, but we have a long way to go before we get there.

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Originally Posted by luvourmother View Post

I predict we will see more and more of these type of articles as veganism gains in popularity. They are quite annoying! I don't understand why people have to justify their decisions to eat animals and animal products to others by posting articles and writing about it in blogs. It is obvious self-justification for going back on a decision to eat vegan, pathetic.

Agreed, that's what it felt like to me. I agreed with the points I mentioned above but overall it seemed like a lot of hot air for the sake of bashing others, especially the parts about processed foods (as if that's a necessary part of not eating animal products, grrr I hate that misconception...)

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Originally Posted by Identity_thief View Post

I think this person makes some valid points, I agree that we need to become less hung up on "is it vegan" and more hung up on "is it ethical?", it matters less if you confirm to veganism and more if you're thinking through your choices ethically.

However their reasoning behind not being vegan is invalid - for two reasons. The first being they seem to assumue you must eat faux-whatever, and processed food to be vegan. You do not, and infact, a lot of people don't for purely taste reasons, 95% of what I eat doesn't contain faux anything (exceptions being rice milk, soya margerine and the occational soya sausage). If you think these products are unethical, you don't need to give up being vegan to be more ethical, that's selling your house because you have a leaky tap! Secondly, the commercial non vegan versions are even less ethical, they'd only be arguably more ethical - from a purley environmental stance - if you had your own sustainable produce (ie: if you raised your own animals etc). Since this isn't true for most people, or even workable for most people, veganism WITH all the faux products is still more ethical than not being vegan and eating the same sorts of foods.

In all, the solution is surely to change what you eat, and reap the ethical benefits of local produce, whole foods, etc, AND veganism - than for some unknown reason believe you need to choose between the two.

I agree, great post.

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You said it.

The article is blithe, pompous posturing.

PS Werewolf Girl - I 'liked' your comment. I know that makes your day.
PSS Actually I 'liked' quite a few of the comments.

Thanks!

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Can I just roll my eyes?

Please do, I did!

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#23 Old 03-24-2011, 05:55 AM
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The article is pure self-justification and nothing more, in my opinion. There are some animal products this author wants to use and she's going to great lengths to convince herself it's OK to do so. Unfortunately, she may convince some others in the process.

My views on these issues are evolving really rapidly. In the very beginning of my conversion to veganism, I would have been OK with wearing leather and wool that I already owned, for example. At this point, I'm really not and have cleaned all the animal-based items out of my closet to be donated. I think wearing them sends the wrong message to non-vegans who know of my veganism -- either that I'm a hypocrite or (more importantly) that leather, wool, etc. are somehow OK to use. I'd actually prefer not even to wear faux leather at this point for that reason, but there are some situations in my life where it's hard to find appropriate shoes that don't look like leather (I'm in a conservative profession, for example.) I'm working on that
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#24 Old 03-24-2011, 12:34 PM
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so if vegans who talk about themselves (and thus veganism too at times) are called vegangelicals or whatever, what's an omni who won't shut up about their diet called?
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#25 Old 03-24-2011, 01:30 PM
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I actually agree with a few of her points but here's my problem with the article.
She makes it sound like if your vegan your forced to eat processed food and be stuck up. You don't HAVE to eat fake meat. The honey thing, personally I don't have a problem with honey but her argument for it was pathetic "It hurts them but oh well I'm eating local"

I hate how people against veganism or ex vegans make it sound like it's either one or the other

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#26 Old 03-24-2011, 01:49 PM
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^ I totally agree with you re: the processed/fake foods point. I could probably count on my two hands the number of times I've had fake meats since turning veg*n, and I've NEVER had fake cheese. I certainly don't rely on these products every day. In my experience, vegans tend to believe in eating whole foods more than omnivores do.
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#27 Old 03-24-2011, 02:14 PM
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The only thing educational I found in the original article was there is vegan pomegranate ice cream

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#28 Old 03-24-2011, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ashlend View Post

The article is pure self-justification and nothing more, in my opinion. There are some animal products this author wants to use and she's going to great lengths to convince herself it's OK to do so. Unfortunately, she may convince some others in the process.

My views on these issues are evolving really rapidly. In the very beginning of my conversion to veganism, I would have been OK with wearing leather and wool that I already owned, for example. At this point, I'm really not and have cleaned all the animal-based items out of my closet to be donated. I think wearing them sends the wrong message to non-vegans who know of my veganism -- either that I'm a hypocrite or (more importantly) that leather, wool, etc. are somehow OK to use. I'd actually prefer not even to wear faux leather at this point for that reason, but there are some situations in my life where it's hard to find appropriate shoes that don't look like leather (I'm in a conservative profession, for example.) I'm working on that

I agree, these days faux leather/fur don't appeal to me much. I like being plant based and looking like it too

That being said there are still some faux leather boots that can be sort of tempting, but most things I buy are just made of fabric and stuff, even my shoes.

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so if vegans who talk about themselves (and thus veganism too at times) are called vegangelicals or whatever, what's an omni who won't shut up about their diet called?

An *******?

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The only thing educational I found in the original article was there is vegan pomegranate ice cream

Yeah, that sounds amazing! I just tried raw strawberry cashew ice cream for the first time today, outstanding.

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#29 Old 03-25-2011, 09:00 AM
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Yeah, that sounds amazing! I just tried raw strawberry cashew ice cream for the first time today, outstanding.

Where did you buy raw ice cream? i'm trying to switch to a more raw based diet but my cravings get the best of me, I'm hooked on tofutti fudgsicles lol

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#30 Old 03-25-2011, 12:16 PM
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But OH MY, what is it about being a former vegan that seems to make people so verbose and full of themselves? Check out this first paragraph, it's quite the ridiculous mouthful:

I don't believe people who write like this were ever vegan, or even vegetarian. There are plenty of people with an agenda to make veganism and vegans look as bad as possible, and that is what is behind 99.9999999% of these kinds of articles.

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