Vegans And Religion - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
View Poll Results: Religous views: Your choices?
Atheism 37 100.00%
Agnosticism 23 100.00%
Buddhism 7 77.78%
Judaism 2 22.22%
Santana Dharma ( Hiduism ) 1 11.11%
Jainism 0 0%
Christianity 14 100.00%
Islam 0 0%
Other 13 100.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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#31 Old 03-20-2011, 02:53 PM
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Agnostic is related to knowledge, whereas atheist or theist are related to belief. I'm an agnostic because I have no knowledge of the existence of a god or gods. I am an atheist because I see no reason to believe they exist. These are not mutually exclusive terms. I get the impression you haven't even watched the video I keep posting in every single thread where atheism and agnosticism come up. Why is that? Why do you have to see it as a personal attack when I want to point out improperly used words? I'm trying to help you define yourself better. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that agnostic is some sort of middle ground between atheist or theist, or that atheist is somehow a position of faith or strong belief. I'm simply using a well constructed web resource compiled by an intelligent person to refute that claim.

Another good resource for properly defining what an atheist is would be the following

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6MUsfovzmw&feature=related


I think that a lot of people here are reluctant to self identify as atheists because social stigmas on the word have led otherwise intelligent people to be woefully misinformed about what an atheist actually is. I believe there are many more atheists in the world than those who self identify as such. Most of them are agnostics as well, but then again so are most Christians because the basis of faith is that you don't and can't know, but choose to believe anyway. A Christian who is not agnostic would have no faith and therefore not be a Christian, which would be a paradox of epic proportions.

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#32 Old 03-20-2011, 02:56 PM
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Atheist, and as someone else mentioned I use some buddhist teachings in my life too.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
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#33 Old 03-20-2011, 02:58 PM
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Atheist / Secular Humanist.

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#34 Old 03-20-2011, 03:05 PM
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It's strange how I'm so often understood to be picking fights or personally attacking people for making contrary comments to things I see that I believe to be false. I'm having a discussion, and allowing other people to either see where we differ or even to defend their own position. I'm happy to defend my positions. I enjoy being right, and standing on strong sides of issues, and if I'm shown to be mistaken I'll gladly change my position or reconsider it at the very least. Don't you enjoy when I gift you with the opportunity to further expound on your philosophies? I consider it one of the highest forms of human interaction.

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Atheist

not a religion. lack of a belief in a god or gods.

Quote:
/ Secular Humanist.

A religion or at least a set of beliefs, and the one I personally identify with.

Tam! RUGH!
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#35 Old 03-20-2011, 03:22 PM
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Why is that? Why do you have to see it as a personal attack when I want to point out improperly used words? I'm trying to help you define yourself better.

Maybe Kibbleforlola is quite happy in her little bubble of ignorance and doesn't really want to be lectured at... Just saying...

Because what you are doing is lecturing even after she's said that she doesn't care and doesn't want to know.... Just give it a rest already...
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#36 Old 03-20-2011, 03:25 PM
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that is a handy scale. im a 7.

Me too.

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#37 Old 03-20-2011, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh James xVx View Post

A religion or at least a set of beliefs, and the one I personally identify with.

Awesome it's definitely a philosophy / life stance and since it's secular, I believe it's meant to be apart from religion.

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#38 Old 03-21-2011, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh James xVx View Post

It's strange how I'm so often understood to be picking fights or personally attacking people for making contrary comments to things I see that I believe to be false.

Pretty easy to see why.

It's very clear what somebody means when they say that they are agnostic. Going out of your way to "correct" them just comes of as kinda douchey.
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#39 Old 03-21-2011, 01:40 PM
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Pretty easy to see why.

It's very clear what somebody means when they say that they are agnostic. Going out of your way to "correct" them just comes of as kinda douchey.

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#40 Old 03-21-2011, 02:04 PM
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Other, I am spiritual but I don't label it.

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#41 Old 03-21-2011, 09:13 PM
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I am a 6 (de facto atheist) on the Dawkins scale:

"I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."

Ditto, I enjoy that scale.

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Originally Posted by New England Vegan View Post

Atheist. I was forced to go to Catholic school as a kid and after serious doubts had been growing since about 12 years old, when I was 14 I decided to read the whole bible. That did it. I've been an atheist for the 25 years since then. Being that not many people have actually read the whole bible as they just read or know certain "cherry picked" parts, it has been quite interesting when people ask me questions about being an atheist and I talk about things from the bible they are completely unaware of, but yet it's their holy book, not mine.

Your story is very similar to mine. Being forced into Catechism and not getting any satisfying answers to my questions convinced me I was an atheist at 7, and then several years later I decided to read the whole bible and it was really quite shocking. That book is very inappropriate for children, it's chock full of rape and violence and sadism. Even before I took it upon myself to read the whole thing I would flip through it in catechism on Sundays and keep coming across graphic descriptions of genocide, incest, bestiality, etc. Not good times for a sensitive 7 year old.

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Originally Posted by Herbivorous B.I.G. View Post

Pretty easy to see why.

It's very clear what somebody means when they say that they are agnostic. Going out of your way to "correct" them just comes of as kinda douchey.


"If we could live happy and healthy lives without harming others... why wouldn't we?" - Edgars Mission
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#42 Old 03-21-2011, 09:20 PM
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I suppose I consider myself an Atheist - I don't believe in a God per say, but I do believe there is life somewhere out there of a higher intelligence. Whether or not they are related to our existence is an unknown. I also feel a very real spiritual connection with the world around me. The Earth, moon, stars, ocean...you get my drift.

Our Generation has had no Great war, no Great Depression. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives.
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#43 Old 03-21-2011, 09:22 PM
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I am a 6 (de facto atheist) on the Dawkins scale:

"I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."

The God Delusion...great book. I'd say I'm a 6 as well.

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#44 Old 03-21-2011, 09:37 PM
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Taoist, it's much more a philosophy than a religion, at least in the way I think of it. I recently started learning about Buddhism as well. On the "dawkins scale", I'd say I'm a 5.67. I believe there is something greater than us, much like Vegan Wannabe described. Whether there is also a god(s)/God/angry green alien who sucks at invading earth, I dunno.

Disclaimer: I'm insane.
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#45 Old 03-22-2011, 04:27 AM
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Your story is very similar to mine. Being forced into Catechism and not getting any satisfying answers to my questions convinced me I was an atheist at 7, and then several years later I decided to read the whole bible and it was really quite shocking. That book is very inappropriate for children, it's chock full of rape and violence and sadism. Even before I took it upon myself to read the whole thing I would flip through it in catechism on Sundays and keep coming across graphic descriptions of genocide, incest, bestiality, etc. Not good times for a sensitive 7 year old.




You're right on the money, it really is a shocking book. I laugh every time some religious group wants to ban a book from a school library because there's a same sex couple in the book holding hands and yet the bible features rape, genocide and incest, but that is some how developmentally appropriate for young children.

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#46 Old 03-22-2011, 02:05 PM
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I'm a Christian.
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#47 Old 03-22-2011, 04:51 PM
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"Newbie" Buddhist.
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#48 Old 03-22-2011, 06:36 PM
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Personally I'm undecided. I chose to believe that it is entirely possible for there to be an after-life and a God/Goddess/Godi people. However on the flip side I am a man of science and as such I tend to find most commercial Religious gods are merely just an interpretation of ones or a groups desires. Because of this I believe that if there is a creator then it is vastly different than that of what we have created. I do however lean towards Buddhism; I've meditated on several occasions
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#49 Old 03-23-2011, 03:00 PM
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Buddhist, but I'm more philosophical than religious.
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#50 Old 03-24-2011, 02:40 PM
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Buddhist, but I'm more philosophical than religious.

same here

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#51 Old 03-24-2011, 03:52 PM
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Agnostic is related to knowledge, whereas atheist or theist are related to belief. I'm an agnostic because I have no knowledge of the existence of a god or gods. I am an atheist because I see no reason to believe they exist. These are not mutually exclusive terms. I get the impression you haven't even watched the video I keep posting in every single thread where atheism and agnosticism come up. Why is that? Why do you have to see it as a personal attack when I want to point out improperly used words? I'm trying to help you define yourself better. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that agnostic is some sort of middle ground between atheist or theist, or that atheist is somehow a position of faith or strong belief. I'm simply using a well constructed web resource compiled by an intelligent person to refute that claim.

I can understand why Josh James xVx wants clarification from other posters. Many people (theists and atheits) are completely confused about the defination of atheism and agnostisim. They keep seeing agnostism as a middle ground or a compromise between theism and atheism whereas these are completely different categories. Agnistisim concerns knoledge. Atheism concerns belief. As Josh James xVx stated they are not incompatible. Atheism only means lack of belief in gods, not necessaraly belief that there are no gods. Whether you "know" or "don't know" that god(s) exist(s), you either have belief in him (them) or you lack this belief. Again lacking belief in gods does not mean believing that there are no gods.
Most people who identify as agnostics are infact atheists, agnostic atheists. Like this poster, for instance:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbleforlola View Post

I'm agnostic. I don't know, and quite frankly, I don't really care.

I assume (and let the poster correct me if I'm wrong), that the "I don't care" statement means that the poster lacks belief in any gods. Which makes her an atheist. Whether she knows or not knows for sure is a different matter.

There are quite a few people on the other hand, who also identidy as agnostics. They say: I don't know whether there's god, but I believe there's somethign out there, some higher power or whatever". Since these people believe in some sort of higher power/god (even though they "don't know") we can't say they lack belief, so we can assume they are theists, because they believe, but they are also agnostics, because they don't know.

Agnostism is a complicated notion. There are different forms and degrees of it. And it is not only used in relation to gods or religion. Many people who are not sure about whether they believe or not jump to conclusion that they are agnostics and that's it, while agnostism doesn't even have anything to do with belief...

Seriosuly, people, watch the videos Josh James xVx posted. They explain these things much much better than I do.

My pont is - and I concur with Josh James xVx here - that the confusion about the definitions of agnostism and atheism leads to stigmatazing of atheists. Atheists are a wide group of people and not only those who 100% believe that there are no god as most theists see us.
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#52 Old 03-27-2011, 01:36 PM
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I find the number of atheist-vegans really interesting! Most people (especially the religious ones) would argue that less killing = more ethical. Who says you need some sort of god to tread the higher ethical path!!
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#53 Old 03-27-2011, 01:50 PM
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I assume (and let the poster correct me if I'm wrong), that the "I don't care" statement means that the poster lacks belief in any gods. Which makes her an atheist. Whether she knows or not knows for sure is a different matter.

You know what they say about people who assume, right? I am not an atheist. I am agnostic. I do indeed know the difference between the two. There seems to be some belief that here that agnostics are naive, confused, or otherwise misinformed. I am unsure where that comes from, but I know what I mean and and I mean what I say. I believe that there is equal possibility that there is a god as there is the possibility that there isn't a god. And I really, truly, just don't care. Yeah, it's fun to conjecture sometimes, and I don't knock anybody else's belief system, but I feel like my time is better spent in the here and now, helping people in a real way, then trying to toe the line to a belief (and yes, atheism is just as much a belief as believing in a god/s/ess/esses, because you can't prove it, either way).

So there.

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#54 Old 03-27-2011, 02:32 PM
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(and yes, atheism is just as much a belief as believing in a god/s/ess/esses, because you can't prove it, either way).

I have a feeling you didn't even read my post till the end or didn't understand. Because you missed the whole point. But yeah, it's obviosly pointless discussion.
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#55 Old 03-27-2011, 02:39 PM
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(and yes, atheism is just as much a belief as believing in a god/s/ess/esses, because you can't prove it, either way).

Isn't that doing just the very thing you were objecting to: making pronouncements about people's self-identification as X (in relation to faith) that goes against how those people themselves understand what they mean when they say they are X? If someone says they are atheist, and understands that as not a positive belief but an absence of one, and you then imply that no, they are wrong, they do believe, how is that different from saying that agnostics are confused?

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#56 Old 03-27-2011, 02:59 PM
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Isn't that doing just the very thing you were objecting to: making pronouncements about people's self-identification as X (in relation to faith) that goes against how those people themselves understand what they mean when they say they are X? If someone says they are atheist, and understands that as not a positive belief but an absence of one, and you then imply that no, they are wrong, they do believe, how is that different from saying that agnostics are confused?

I can see that. Hmmm. Let me rephrase (amend?) I think that atheism can be as much a belief system, if you are approaching atheism from a 'I believe there is no god' stance. However, if you are coming from a place where you think 'I think there is no evidence for proof that a god exists', then I don't know. And of course, each individual's belief is different. And so on and so forth. In the end, I really can't make any pronouncements on atheism, because I'm not an atheist.

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#57 Old 03-27-2011, 03:41 PM
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Agnostic is related to knowledge, whereas atheist or theist are related to belief.[/video]

Depends on where you draw the line between a "belief" and a self-perceived "knowledge".

See, I tend to group atheists into two groups.

A) I don't believe in god.

B) I know that there is no such thing as a god.

The same could be said to agnosticism.

A) I don't know if good exists or not.

B) I don't care. Really.

"Hell exists not to punish sinners, but to ensure that nobody sins in the first place."
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#58 Old 03-27-2011, 03:49 PM
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The same could be said to agnosticism.

A) I don't know if good exists or not.

B) I don't care. Really.

If B qualifies as agnosticism, it is by virtue of interpreting not-caring as implying lack of knowledge. I don't think either of those is about belief.

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#59 Old 03-27-2011, 04:37 PM
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I said in a matter of fact way, not intending to make a joke, that when I felt lonesome for the company of atheists I just hook up with vegans. Everyone laughed.

So, what are your religious leanings?

I guess that is just another stereotype. I'm not saying that negatively or to slam you. But I doubt all vegans are atheists. I'm not. I'm also not religious but I have my own ideas. I have beliefs. I believe in an afterlife but not the concept of heaven and hell. All good and all bad.

I'm not Christian and because of this I've been told two separate times at work that I'm an atheist. Once by a supervisor. Thinking back I probably could have made a harassement issue out of it. This has usually started because I don't celebrate Christmas in any way shape or form. It's just another day to me. And I usually work it since I work in the medical field. I voted "other"

My main thing is I want all the animals I have loved to be waiting for me when I die.
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#60 Old 03-28-2011, 12:37 AM
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I can see that. Hmmm. Let me rephrase (amend?) I think that atheism can be as much a belief system, if you are approaching atheism from a 'I believe there is no god' stance. However, if you are coming from a place where you think 'I think there is no evidence for proof that a god exists', then I don't know. And of course, each individual's belief is different. And so on and so forth. In the end, I really can't make any pronouncements on atheism, because I'm not an atheist.

Indeed. The human belief system can be very complicated and varied. It's not always easy to find a term that discribes you 100%.
However, I'd like to point out that the 'I don't know, I don't care' definition of agnostism is a very simplified and in a way incorrect definition of it. If you look it up, agnostism means foremost these 3 things:

1. It's a view that the existance and true value of any deity is unknowable and unprovable.

2. Even if any deity exists the human mind is too limited to persieve it.

3. And based on the two statements above an agnostic is usually apposed to the institutation of religion.

^this definition is from Donald M. Borchert's The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and from Edward Craig's Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

As you can see, none of this statements controdicts to absence of belief in any gods. An agnostic is foremost a skeptic who doesn't see a reason to take any stance about the existance of any deities. You can be an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.

This is a definition of agnostic atheism from C. Austin's "Atheism vs. Agnosticism: What's the Difference? Are they Alternatives to Each Other?"

Quote:
Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.

And a definition of agnostic theism from the same source:

Quote:
Agnostic theism is a view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

So this is why when you say, "I'm not an atheist, I'm an agnostic", to me it sounds the same way as saying: "I'm not an AR activist, I'm a vegetarian". It sounds strange, because you don't have to be a vegetarian, to be an AR activist, and you certainly do not have to be AR activist to be a vegetarian, but you can be both. However, if you indeed don't lack believe in any gods, you could say: "I'm an agnostic, but I'm not an atheist". And I would understand what you meant by it.
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