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-   -   Girl quits vegan because of health issues advised by doctor? (https://www.veggieboards.com/forum/60-vegan-support-forum/119046-girl-quits-vegan-because-health-issues-advised-doctor.html)

Doktormartini 11-19-2010 09:00 PM

Did you see this yet? Apparently this girl was vegan for 3.5 years and the doctor said she should stop because she's harming herself. What are your thoughts? Apparently she said she did everything right. Do you agree with the doctor?

http://thevoraciousvegan.com/2010/11...vegan-no-more/

SomebodyElse 11-19-2010 09:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doktormartini View Post

Do you agree with the doctor?

http://thevoraciousvegan.com/2010/11...vegan-no-more/

No I do not. Any doctor who says this:

"After all, every human is biologically and physiologically different, she explained."

is an idiot. Human beings do not vary so much that some "need" animal produce and others do not, any more than some cows need pork, but others do fine on grass. We would have to reclassify some of the genus Homo into different species if people were that physiologically and biologically different.

Doktormartini 11-19-2010 09:30 PM

I agree with you entirely.

fairouz 11-19-2010 10:30 PM

I don't know what I think about it. I can't imagine that someone eating a healthy, varied vegan diet would have that many nutritional deficiencies but I'd never suggest someone sacrifice his or her health to stay vegan. What stuck out most for me was the 'outpouring of support' she had received. It's discouraging to think of my favorite vegan bloggers and cookbook authors editing their posts and recipes while munching on chicken nuggets or drinking milkshakes.

Werewolf Girl 11-19-2010 10:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

No I do not. Any doctor who says this:

"After all, every human is biologically and physiologically different, she explained."

is an idiot. Human beings do not vary so much that some "need" animal produce and others do not, any more than some cows need pork, but others do fine on grass. We would have to reclassify some of the genus Homo into different species if people were that physiologically and biologically different.

Indeed, and the fact that she didn't even try to get a second opinion is really strange to me too.

I'm not a doctor but that whole thing seems extremely weird to me, especially since it seems that after some initial tears she jumped into being omni head first and now delights in eating dead animals. The parts where she's talking about how she savours the flavour of it now made me feel a bit nauseous. Maybe she just got sick of trying and this was a convenient excuse? She didn't mention anything about trying to eat limited amounts or only eating dairy or only eating eggs or finding the most humanely raised animal products she could or any of the other things you would expect someone who really cares about animals to do in that situation.

All I know is my health has improved dramatically since going vegan. My skin cleared up, my energy levels improved, I lost weight, in general I'm feeling much more healthy and chipper than I ever was when I felt dull and heavy from too much animal grease. Are human physiologies really so different?

Also what was with the ranting about feminism and mysoginists forcing her to be vegan? That was a strange disturbing read...

Her Jazz 11-19-2010 10:51 PM

That was a long post and I didn't read it...but exactly what was the magic ingredient in meat that supposedly made her feel better?

Her Jazz 11-19-2010 10:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post

Indeed, and the fact that she didn't even try to get a second opinion is really strange to me too.

I'm not a doctor but that whole thing seems extremely weird to me, especially since it seems that after some initial tears she jumped into being omni head first and now delights in eating dead animals. The parts where she's talking about how she savours the flavour of it now made me feel a bit nauseous. Maybe she just got sick of trying and this was a convenient excuse? She didn't mention anything about trying to eat limited amounts or only eating dairy or only eating eggs or finding the most humanely raised animal products she could or any of the other things you would expect someone who really cares about animals to do in that situation.

All I know is my health has improved dramatically since going vegan. My skin cleared up, my energy levels improved, I lost weight, in general I'm feeling much more healthy and chipper than I ever was when I felt dull and heavy from too much animal grease. Are human physiologies really so different?

Also what was with the ranting about feminism and mysoginists forcing her to be vegan? That was a strange disturbing read...

Wow. I completely agree with what you are saying here. Just judging from what you are saying, it does sound like she was looking for an excuse to eat meat. A cup of yogurt just wasn't good enough. Just had to go with the dead flesh.

This feels so wrong in all kinds of ways.

Doktormartini 11-19-2010 10:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Her Jazz View Post

That was a long post and I didn't read it...but exactly what was the magic ingredient in meat that supposedly made her feel better?

I dunno. Apparently she was anemic and had a b12 deficiency.

Her Jazz 11-19-2010 11:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doktormartini View Post

I dunno. Apparently she was anemic and had a b12 deficiency.

Why couldn't she get that from dairy/supplements/SOMETHING other than meat? No doctor on earth could persuade me to bite into a piece of flesh again...and if it were really a very dire situation, I would only be able to do it in very small baby steps. I could not just go and start chomping on fish.

P.S. my mom who eats nothing BUT meat also is having problems with anemia and b12 deficiency.

AlainWinthrope 11-19-2010 11:20 PM

Wow, I'm not gonna read all that. What a bunch of self absorbed twaddle.

One question
Why eat meat? Why not just try to find a local hen house or someone who has hens as pets, or at the very least supermarket eggs, and eat those? Why give it all up?

I'm just glad I never read her blog cause then I'd be really pissed.

SomebodyElse 11-19-2010 11:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Her Jazz View Post

P.S. my mom who eats nothing BUT meat also is having problems with anemia and b12 deficiency.

Oh yes same with my step mom. She eats nothing but meat and dairy and junk, and has been anemic and B12 deficient for over a year now. Sounds just like this blogger in fact.

I wonder why people fail to understand that B12 anemia is rarely caused by a dietary deficiency, but largely by the loss of intrinsic factor that is produced by the body and aids in B12 absorption. Loss of intrinsic factor has nothing to do with diet, and once you get it, no amount of meat or dairy ingestion will fix your anemia. You have to have injections.

almiragoesvegan 11-19-2010 11:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post


I wonder why people fail to understand that B12 anemia is rarely caused by a dietary deficiency, but largely by the loss of intrinsic factor that is produced by the body and aids in B12 absorption. Loss of intrinsic factor has nothing to do with diet, and once you get it, no amount of meat or dairy ingestion will fix your anemia. You have to have injections.

You probably know more about nutrition than her doctor. The amount of nutrition taught in medical school is slim to none.

There are also plenty of studies showing that vegetarians and vegans are no more likely to be anemic than meat-eaters, even if they have lower iron intakes.

Her Jazz 11-19-2010 11:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlainWinthrope View Post

What a bunch of self absorbed twaddle.


Irizary 11-20-2010 12:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by almiragoesvegan View Post

You probably know more about nutrition than her doctor. The amount of nutrition taught in medical school is slim to none.

There are also plenty of studies showing that vegetarians and vegans are no more likely to be anemic than meat-eaters, even if they have lower iron intakes.

Oh, you can't count on that practitioner even being an MD doctor. Chiropracters are also called doctors (and they often promote meat as a matter of course); people refer to their Oriental medicine practitioners as doctors, and they often have questionable credentials; and naturopaths are called "doctors" even though they can get their degree by CORRESPONDENCE SCHOOL; and so on.

The blogger is obviously a reader of the Weston Price foundation (which makes some really ludicrous and unscientific claims about vegetarianism) and Keith, and she's spouting off a lot of their nonsense and rationalizations - such that she now seems to believe it's more ethical for animals (!) to eat them. She's incorrect in that there are other forms of agriculture possible that do not use animal waste. She actually hooks meat eating TO feminism - denying oneself meat is apparently giving in to society's woman-hating culture. What twisted logic. I guess you could make the same argument about women giving in to patriarchal laws and mores by not owning slaves too.

She's the same personality type as Lierre Keith:

Quote:
I wasn’t just a regular vegan, I was a hardcore, self-righteous and oh so judgmental vegangelical. I never passed up an opportunity for some preaching.

she's someone who obviously swings from one side of something to another, so that now she's got to rail against veganism. As one poster said,

Quote:
To sum up, you couldn’t hack a vegan diet and instead of just doing what is right for your body, you have to make excuses as to why everything you did before was wrong and everything you are doing now is right – and you’re trying to drag others down this horrible path.

And - yuck - someone who "moans with pleasure and joy" while eating beef - makes you wonder into what orifice she's sticking the dead animal

Quote:
My first bite of meat after 3.5 years of veganism was both the hardest and easiest thing I’ve ever done. Tears ran down my face as saliva pooled in my mouth. The world receded to a blank nothingness and I just ate, and ate, and ate. I cried in grief and anger, while moaning with pleasure and joy.

I mean really, blech

Werewolf Girl 11-20-2010 12:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

Oh, you can't count on that practitioner even being an MD doctor. Chiropracters are also called doctors (and they often promote meat as a matter of course); people refer to their Oriental medicine practitioners as doctors, and they often have questionable credentials; and naturopaths are called "doctors" even though they can get their degree by CORRESPONDENCE SCHOOL; and so on.

The blogger is obviously a reader of the Weston Price foundation (which makes some really ludicrous and unscientific claims about vegetarianism) and Keith, and she's spouting off a lot of their nonsense and rationalizations - such that she now seems to believe it's more ethical for animals (!) to eat them. She's incorrect in that there are other forms of agriculture possible that do not use animal waste. She actually hooks meat eating TO feminism - denying oneself meat is apparently giving in to society's woman-hating culture. What twisted logic. I guess you could make the same argument about women giving in to patriarchal laws and mores by not owning slaves too.

She's the same personality type as Lierre Keith:

she's someone who obviously swings from one side of something to another, so that now she's got to rail against veganism. As one poster said,

And - yuck - someone who "moans with pleasure and joy" while eating beef - makes you wonder into what orifice she's sticking the dead animal

I mean really, blech

I'm glad I'm not the only one who found that description disturbingly sexual, I literally felt sick to my stomach for about an hour after reading it. How profoundly creepy...

Pixie 11-20-2010 01:02 AM

Annoying.

I was told by an acupuncturist that some people can cope with a vegetarian diet more than others, like Chinese people, because they have historically eaten a more plant based diet. I don't know if that is true.

I have only been vegan for 4 years but if that was me then I would have gone to a vegan nutritionist for their opinion.

NZVeggie 11-20-2010 02:24 AM

Wow.... just wow.
I am almost a doctor... of the medical kind. And I can't even begin to scientifically rationalise her problems. As most of us know B12 is the only thing you can't get from animal products... but taking a tablet is just as good as eating food with B12. If you can't absorb it from a tablet why could you absorb it from animal products? As for other vitamins and minerals...... hmmm I am skeptical.
Very odd... I know several people who have been vegan for 20+ years.... and have raised their children (now teenagers) vegan. They are absolutely fine and act like normal teenagers. I myself feel great as a vegan.... in fact.... I feel no different physcially but feel the psychological satisfaction of knowing that I am doing something to help animals.

I dont like her rationalisation of a lot of things... like linking meat eating to feminism. Its all about choice really.... I choose as a woman to be vegan... that goes against society more than being omnivorous... as she claims.

I don't know what to think about all her health claims.... it seems difficult to imagine how they could have been caused solely by her vegan diet. What I find difficult to understand is her complete turnaround. Ok say that she really did need animal products.... why not eat locally farmed organic meat/eggs 1x a week rather than this full on omnivore diet she has taken on!

Werewolf Girl 11-20-2010 02:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by NZVeggie View Post

Ok say that she really did need animal products.... why not eat locally farmed organic meat/eggs 1x a week rather than this full on omnivore diet she has taken on!

Exactly! It seems like she's using her health as an excuse to go back to eating tons of meat because she lost interest and stopped caring about animals so much. Either that or she's very very impressionable and that doctor was charismatic enough to do some real damage. The amount of rambling she did in that post trying to justify herself seemed like the product of a guilty conscience.


And yeah.... The feminism stuff... I have no words.

saxyphonist 11-20-2010 03:21 AM

I didn't read through the whole thing but it sounds like she went to a nutritionist with a fairly strong anti-veg*n agenda. It didn't seem to me that the doctor was just clueless about veg*nism since she apparently was a nutrition specialist. She seemed to be actively anti-veg*n.

Envy 11-20-2010 03:49 AM

Quote:
We do not grow so much grain because we want to have factory farms; we have factory farms because we are growing such an avalanche of grain.


LL

Carmen 11-20-2010 03:55 AM

i don't really know about how different the human bodies are and i an not a doctor, but i think that was a load of crap. i'm not vegan, so i don't speak from my own experience but there are several things in there that are plain wrong. like the fact that humans used to eat a lot more meat ..like when??? my grandparents used to fast, at summer i think they ate meat 2 or 3 times and my grandma is now 87. my mother,too. she is 62 and more healthy than i am. she eats vegan for like 4 months a year(religious fasting), and every wednesday and friday for the rest of the year and she looks like she is 45. not to mention the periods of war and famine, and people still reached 100. of course, there wasn't so much pollution and chemicals, but i think that the fact they didn't afford to eat so much meat didn't do them any harm.
then, come on....every doctor with a bit of knowledge on nutrition will never advise you to eat meat every day....most say that once 2 times a week should be enough, and pork...like maybe once a month or less.
and that thing about the feminism...wtf? there are not men vegan or what?
i think it's just a way to scare people into eating meat

Sevenseas 11-20-2010 04:01 AM

It's interesting that since she became convinced that she needed to eat animal products (meat even) for health, she just couldn't leave it at that, but felt a need to rationalize it by attacking all the other arguments for veganism too. It's obvious that she needed to feel good about making the right choice so she had to come up with reasons why doing what she did was a-ok in every way. That's fundamentally disingenuous.

That being said, I see a similar tendency in veg*ns, the tendency to come up with reasons why veg*nism is just not ethically preferable, environmentally sustainable and healthy like the standard arguments imply, but also the most "natural" diet, and the diet correlated with intelligence, and the diet that frees us from depression and makes us "in tune" with everything etc. etc. So the desire to come up with positive reasons for our dietary/lifestyle changes after the fact seems to be very common.

It was hilarious though how she said that (organically raised) animal products are the healthiest products imaginable. Seriously? They're healthier than stuff like spinach and black beans and sesame seeds? Whoa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

And - yuck - someone who "moans with pleasure and joy" while eating beef - makes you wonder into what orifice she's sticking the dead animal

Yeah she was ridiculously over the top with describing the joys of eating meat.

Ah.. I put that meat in my mouth.. Ooh baby. I felt a shivering joy all through my body.. All my cells started screaming "Hallelujah! The pieces of animal corpse be praised! Hallelujah!!" And then all the cells in my body joined hands -- at least they would have, if cells had hands -- and started dancing and singing and having fun. I started to feel a bubbling sensation all around me. A bubbling of ecstatic joy. A feeling that the whole world was made just for me. A feeling that the sun came down from the sky, smiling, filling me with warmth!! It's like five thousand angels had formed a choir around me, filling the air with a bliss of sound that caressed my ears with their sweetness as that dead animal was being processed by my teeth! Then the angels started to embrace me, to pet my hair, to tickle me, as I felt I became simply the embodiment of Light, this pure glistening energy flowing from me!!! Ooh.. ooh.. faster, faster! Deeper, deeper!! Meat... MEAT!! MEAT!! Oh YES!! YES! YES!! MORE!!! MORE FLESH!!! I WANT BLOOD DRIPPING!! AAh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.. that's right.. a little more... YES!! YES!!! YES!!!! Oooooooh.. meat, I love ya! *lights a cigarette*

Earthling 11-20-2010 04:06 AM

I made it through about 4 pages, then realised I hadn't even read half of it and thought "**** this!". The whole thing read like a massive justification of why she is eating meat again, she was practically pleading with her audience to understand she had NO choice and was HEARTBROKEN! Uh huh. Obviously someone on a "superbly healthy vegan diet" is not going to have multiple nutritional deficiencies caused by a lack of it in her diet, so either her or the doctor had got it wrong.

Just ugh. Ex-veg*ns turn into the most rabid anti-veg*n activists because they need to cover their guilt by insisting giving up veg:*nism was necessary and right.

Envy 11-20-2010 04:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Yeah she was ridiculously over the top with describing the joys of eating meat.

Ah.. I put that meat in my mouth.. Ooh baby. I felt a shivering joy all through my body.. All my cells started screaming "Hallelujah! The pieces of animal corpse be praised! Hallelujah!!" And then all the cells in my body joined hands -- at least they would have, if cells had hands -- and started dancing and singing and having fun. I started to feel a bubbling sensation all around me. A bubbling of ecstatic joy. A feeling that the whole world was made just for me. A feeling that the sun came down from the sky, smiling, filling me with warmth!! It's like five thousand angels had formed a choir around me, filling the air with a bliss of sound that caressed my ears with their sweetness as that dead animal was being processed by my teeth! Then the angels started to embrace me, to pet my hair, to tickle me, as I felt I became simply the embodiment of Light, this pure glistening energy flowing from me!!! Ooh.. ooh.. faster, faster! Deeper, deeper!! Meat... MEAT!! MEAT!! Oh YES!! YES! YES!! MORE!!! MORE FLESH!!! I WANT BLOOD DRIPPING!! AAh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.. that's right.. a little more... YES!! YES!!! YES!!!! Oooooooh.. meat, I love ya! *goes for a smoke*

"Meat"?

Really subtle.

Earthling 11-20-2010 04:08 AM

Also, I notice that ALL of the comments are positive and congratulate her on her "bravery". Moderated for sure.

Sevenseas 11-20-2010 04:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling View Post

I made it through about 4 pages, then realised I hadn't even read half of it and thought "**** this!".

That's another thing. She really needs an editor.

Envy 11-20-2010 04:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling View Post

Also, I notice that ALL of the comments are positive and congratulate her on her "bravery". Moderated for sure.

Here is one negative.

Quote:
What a bunch of poop! Fine, if you don’t want to eat vegan, don’t (well, as a vegan i don’t think it’s fine, but that’s another story). However, just because you choose to discontinue a healthy, compassionate diet, don’t spread such nonsense to make yourself feel better for having to (or rather thinking that you have to) go against your morals. I understand you are trying to rationalize in order to live with yourself without self-hating for what you’re doing.

You are discounting a vegan diet and it sounds to me like you are discounting a vegan lifestyle in general. Are you now wearing leather and fur, for example? I would assume so because you seem to have done a 180 as to your previous thinking.
I agree with a lot of what Meg wrote above so I don’t want to repeat what she has said. However, I want to add that you several times said things such as, “The willing participation in the denial and degradation of my bodily needs smacked of misogyny, patriarchal control and violence against the female body, and everything that I fight against. ”
What hooey!! Do you think veganism is for women only?? This is apples and oranges here and makes no sense. You’re grasping at straws to make yourself feel good with your decision.

Again, do what you want with your body but don’t encourage others by writing some outright lies in your diatribe.
To sum up, you couldn’t hack a vegan diet and instead of just doing what is right for your body, you have to make excuses as to why everything you did before was wrong and everything you are doing now is right – and you’re trying to drag others down this horrible path.

I would have had respect for you if you had said, hey I choose to eat meat now because it’s what I want to do, but the fact that you’re now pulling stuff from Carni 101 and spreading these lies as truth is reprehensible and makes me have very, very little respect for you.


Earthling 11-20-2010 04:35 AM

Ahh there are some negative ones right at the bottom. Sadly the idiots piled on their flawed logic.

This made me lol:

Quote:
Most vegans that I’ve met have been pretty militant about it, as you said that you were. The problem with “movements” is that they don’t take into account the science. Yes, it is true that the Jains live a purely vegan lifestyle but they are the result of adaptation over more than 5000 years! There may have been many who simply died from malnutrition and we are seeing the ones who made it. People from northern climates may need meat as a result of that adaptation.


Pixie 11-20-2010 04:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by NZVeggie View Post

Ok say that she really did need animal products.... why not eat locally farmed organic meat/eggs 1x a week rather than this full on omnivore diet she has taken on!

Precisely!

Blobbenstein 11-20-2010 04:53 AM

I'm not completely against the idea that not everyone can be vegan, but that whole blog read like a piece of fiction, and bad fiction at that. I would tend towards the idea that she is working for the meat industry, in a long term undercover capacity...oh, she got emails from vegan bloggers saying they ate fish did she? there goes our big secret!

and the comments read like fiction, even the anti-ones did.


ETA: and I too gave up when I saw howmuch more there was..it was starting to do my head in.


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