Help-Eye Dr wants me to take Fish oil supplements - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 11-15-2010, 09:45 PM
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My eye Dr. wants me to take fish oil supplements because of dry eyes. She says that after blinking my eyes are drying out within 4 seconds.

After telling her I'm vegan (and having to listen to her say "VAYGUN" over and over", she said well I think for your health your going to have to do this and do "Vaygun" for every thing else. WHAT???????? She kept telling me I can't get enough plant based Omega 3's and that Flax seeds are a known carcinogen.

So after a little research, what I'm seeing is that Flax seeds only are a carcinogen if heated.

I've also learned that most plant based Omega 3's provide ALA, and fishoil is DHA/EPA. You mostly can't get EPA from plants except maybe some seaweed (which I eat fairly often). DHA can be got from Algae, so I purchased some DHA from algae and started taking this today.

I eat nuts of all kinds fairly often, but I have slacked in my walnut eating in the last year. I also slipped in my flax eating, but have recently started eating more. I do get quite a bit from chia seeds, which I eat for breakfast most days.

She also said I may have to go on Restasis. I'm not keen AT ALL about taking any drug long term and would rather find a natural solution and work on fixing the problems. I don't even take pain medications, as I think they are really bad for your liver. In fact, I haven't had a headache (maybe once) since stopping pain medications like advil. It's been 3 years since I took any pain medication (except for when I took some during physical therapy because my therapist wanted me to take it for a few days to reduce inflamation).

One thing is she asked me a lot of questions about other things in my health history about inflammation. She says she believes my eyes are due from inflamation and the omega 3 lowers the inflamation. I've had Interstycial cisitis for 25 years (that I don't take any drugs or therapy for, I've learned to live with symptoms and when they get bad they get better the next day), My dad had ankylosin spondodlitis which caused him to be hunched over, crippled in a wheelchair. It caused him to go blind from eyeritis and was very bad off till he died a few years ago. Both of those are inflamatory diseases. I have two fairly bad knees that give out on me sometimes, pain in the right shoulder and I'm losing strength in my hands.

I did 2 half marathons in 2005, and exercised all the time. Since then in the last 5 years, my body has deteriorated fairly quickly and I'm only 41. I shouldn't have these problems. I've only been vegetarian for 1 year and vegan for 6 months, so no issues have anything to do with my diet (for instance my doctor can't say it's because I'm vegan).


so what are your thoughts. Am I on the right track. Is there ever a point you put your health above taking a supplement. Has nyone had any experience with dry eyes, omega 3's and/or Restasis?

Thanks
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#2 Old 11-15-2010, 10:04 PM
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Have you had a second opinion yet? If not, seek a second opinion and then proceed from there. If the other doctor confirms this you can go from there.

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#3 Old 11-15-2010, 10:06 PM
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my eye dr. recommended flax oil for the same thing...couldn't really say if it helped or not, was hard to tell. It tastes terrible though and it's kidn of messy :/ wish they made a capsule w/o gelatin.

I tried the restasis and that didn't help either, just made my eyes burn for an hour, plus its like $200 for a few months. just getting tired of spending an hour a day putting eye drops in.

actually I think theyve been a little better since I transitioned from vegetarian to vegan. im eating a lot more whole fresh foods than I was before...might be getting more fatty acids etc that way.
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#4 Old 11-15-2010, 10:13 PM
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yeah, there is algae stuff around- i've seen this near me:http://www.udoerasmus.com/products/oil_blend_DHA_en.htm

...and i'd be going for second opinion too. inflammatory conditions have lots of different causes and treatments. fish oil can't be the be all and end all here. what about artificial tears? did those get discussed?

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Originally Posted by yumy View Post

my eye dr. recommended flax oil for the same thing...couldn't really say if it helped or not, was hard to tell. It tastes terrible though and it's kidn of messy :/ wish they made a capsule w/o gelatin.

have you tried hiding the taste by putting it into something like a really strongly flavoured drink, like um... a peanut butter and really chocolatey chocolate almond milk shake?
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#5 Old 11-15-2010, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

Have you had a second opinion yet? If not, seek a second opinion and then proceed from there. If the other doctor confirms this you can go from there.

Not yet, but you can guarantee I'd do that before taking restasis. I mean, I know my eyes are dry as I was diagnosed with dry eyes many years ago by an opthamologist. I was never told to take drugs or supplements. I did notice that she gave me a paper with a brand of fish oil supplements with a discount code (with a code for their office), I'm assuming they get a kickback from how many people order them. She was so anti flax seed and I'd never be able to get enough with food in a diet. I told her I think I eat healthier than most people do, and I don't eat a lot of processed foods.
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#6 Old 11-15-2010, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jeneticallymodified View Post

yeah, there is algae stuff around- i've seen this near me:http://www.udoerasmus.com/products/oil_blend_DHA_en.htm

...and i'd be going for second opinion too. inflammatory conditions have lots of different causes and treatments. fish oil can't be the be all and end all here. what about artificial tears? did those get discussed?



have you tried hiding the taste by putting it into something like a really strongly flavoured drink, like um... a peanut butter and really chocolatey chocolate almond milk shake?

she gave me some kind of drops, but she said they most likely won't do much they are called refresh optive.

Also - Yumy if Restasis is $200 for two months worth - I won't be using it. That is ridiculous. I feel Dr's cover up our problems too much with drugs and don't get to the root of the problem and fix the underlying issue. Our bodies are amazing if we help it along by not clogging our livers and putting toxins into our bodies. They just cause other problems that another Dr will want to fix with more drugs, and that becomes a viscious cycle.
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#7 Old 11-15-2010, 10:55 PM
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I have chronic dry eye as well that I treat with an over-the-counter eye drops called "GenTeal" (I use the "mild to moderate" version since the next one up is a gel, which I personally don't like. But you might find it helpful) I generally use them about 3 times a day (morning, mid day, and before bed) and I keep an "emergency bottle" in the car for when I'm out and about.

GenTeal is $10-12 a bottle so a little pricey, but like you my doctor suggested Restasis which is WAY more expensive than I can afford, especially since my insurance won't cover it. I like this brand because it's powerful and lasts a long time and also, it doesn't burn at all.
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#8 Old 11-16-2010, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jeneticallymodified View Post

yeah, there is algae stuff around- i've seen this near me:http://www.udoerasmus.com/products/oil_blend_DHA_en.htm



I use Udo's Oil 3-6-9 Blend but it's very similar. I'd actually recommend the 3-6-9 blend if you're still running, as it's geared towards athletic performance. It's available at most health food stores too! I don't mind taking a few tablespoons of Udo's oil, but if it's something that bothers you, it's barely noticeable in fruit or vegetable smoothies. Also, it's a total fabrication that you normally require EPA from a fish-based source. Udo's Oil has ALA, which your body converts into EPA. In fact, you end up getting more EPA from this plant-based source than from fish oil capsules. See below:

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How much conversion to long chain n-3 derivatives (EPA + DHA) can a woman accomplish from the ALA in Udo's Choice Oil Blend? A 100-pound woman taking the recommended 2 tablespoons of Udo's Oil per day (1 tablespoon/50 pounds of body weight per day) will get about 14grams (14,000mg) of ALA. At the 36% conversion rate found in the study with young women, 14,000mg of ALA produces a total of 5,040mg of long chain n-3 (2,940mg of EPA, 840mg of DPA, and 1,260mg of DHA). 36% conversion of the oil blend produces the equivalent of about 17 large (1,000mg) capsules of fish oil (each containing 300mg of EPA + DHA), which is close to twice as much as the highest recommended therapeutic dose of fish oil.

Using rate of conversion measured in the study with men, how much ALA is converted? A 150-pound man converting 16% of the recommended 3 tablespoons/day (again, 1 tablespoon/50 pounds of body weight/day of Udo's Choice Oil Blend) ends up with 3,360mg of long chain n-3 (EPA + DPA), the equivalent of 11 large capsules of fish oil. This again is more than the highest recommended therapeutic dose of fish oil. The fact that no DHA was produced in the study with men prompted the researchers to speculate that men may need to eat fish or take fish oil supplements, but other studies find that men do make DHA.

Further reading on the myth of fish oil: http://www.udoerasmus.com/articles/udo/fish_oil.htm
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#9 Old 11-16-2010, 11:48 AM
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I like Barlean's Total Omega Vegan Swirl. it's a bit pricey ($30.00ish) but a great source for the complete. I would try one of the vegan sources for Omegas before resorting to Fish oils.

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#10 Old 11-16-2010, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by idreamoftahini View Post

Also - Yumy if Restasis is $200 for two months worth - I won't be using it. That is ridiculous. I feel Dr's cover up our problems too much with drugs and don't get to the root of the problem and fix the underlying issue. Our bodies are amazing if we help it along by not clogging our livers and putting toxins into our bodies. They just cause other problems that another Dr will want to fix with more drugs, and that becomes a viscious cycle.

it is ridiculous, but I was working a lot and didn't want to spend one of my two free hours every day putting eye drops in, maybe mine are worse than yours idk. I tried the lacrimal plugs and everything else my eye dr. recommended, so medication was the last resort. sucks when the last resort doesn't work either though. worst part is i'm 26, healthy and paying $220 a month for health insurance cuz of my dry eyes.
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#11 Old 11-16-2010, 07:41 PM
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This article shares a study in which vegans were found to have MORE Omega-3s. Worthy of reading and I agree you need a second opinion:

http://www.pcrm.org/news/archive101115.html
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#12 Old 11-17-2010, 02:37 PM
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Don't take dietary advice from eye doctors. That's my advice to you.
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#13 Old 11-17-2010, 02:40 PM
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This article shares a study in which vegans were found to have MORE Omega-3s. Worthy of reading and I agree you need a second opinion:

http://www.pcrm.org/news/archive101115.html

wow, that's interesting.
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#14 Old 11-17-2010, 06:26 PM
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Don't take dietary advice from eye doctors. That's my advice to you.

next time you see him, maybe tell him that while you work in the fruit and veg dept of a supermarket you did notice that his car wasn't looking too good in the parking lot- it had a puddle under it- so you did some repairs while you were passing- but not to worry cos while you aren't a licenced mechanic you did read some stuff about breaking systems on the internet.

or maybe ask him how many years he went to registered dieticians school for...?
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#15 Old 11-18-2010, 12:16 AM
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I also suggest eating more greens and taking goji berries. Greens and gojis contain lutein and zeaxanthin which are great for the eyes. Goji berries also have been shown to help slow down and help prevent cataracts and vision loss. Vision loss isn't the problem you mentioned but it might help.

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#16 Old 11-18-2010, 02:44 AM
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Hemp oil contains all the Omega-3s as well as all fatty acids. Hey, if you're looking for the benefits of Omega-3 oils that are found in fish, I found a good vegan alternative. Smart Balance Omega vegetable oil blend has omega-3s and you use it in cooking like you would any vegetable oil.

Went vegetarian on the 27th December 2013!
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#17 Old 11-20-2010, 01:58 PM
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There's nothing unique in fish oil that can't be derived from plant sources of omega 3's.

Fish Oil is an idea that gets repeated by a lot of doctors who have drank the proverbial kool-aid. It might as well be called snake oil.

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#18 Old 04-28-2016, 10:36 PM
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Question OP - what did you end up doing?

I found your thread by looking up restasis and vegetarian. My eye doctor wants me on restasis but he didn't mention fish oil supplements. I put him off because I've had other inflammatory issues (periodontitis, arthritis, gastritis, foliculitis) so I went to my doctor to have her run tests for deficiencies and markers of inflammation. All came back normal - which is great - except I still have these issues that I feel have to be related to something systemic.

There is no test for omega-3 deficiencies. I've read up on the three types of omega-3 fatty acids and have convinced myself this may be my problem. I'm sure I'm getting enough plant based (ALA). I've been taking flaxseed oil supplements which definitely helped with arthritis. The other two types of omega-3 (DHA and EPA), are created by our bodies from ALA - but the process is slow and inefficient. For example, if you have too much Omega-6, it bonds with the same enzyme as Omega-3. Sounds like you are safe there with your healthy non-processed foods diet. That's only one of many ways the conversion can be hindered.

I started taking DHA supplement (algea) 3-4 weeks ago and haven't noticed significant improvement in my dry eyes (or folliculitis). So, I'm now thinking of temporarily eating fish for the EPA to see if there's any improvement. It's hard. I've been a strict vegetarian for some 20+ years, so this is not a light decision. But if it would make my inflammation issues go away or keep me off a prescription drug, I will be happy to do it. I'm sure fish oil supplement would be easier, but I understand that it's worse from an ecological standpoint than eating fish.

I'd love to hear about what you ended up doing and the state of your eyes today!
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#19 Old 04-29-2016, 09:29 AM
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This is a really old thread! The op and all posters have been MIA for a long time!

I can say that algae DHA is as well used as fish oil. I've taken Ovega-3 from amazon before as well as a couple others. I liked Ovega best, and seems the highest dose of both dha and epa
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...ords=algae+dha
Check all for ingrediants as amazon is known for having non veg items listed as vegan!

There are many foods now that are fortified with algael DHA. Silk has a soy milk with it, Francesco renaldi spaghettie sauces, and House Brand organic tofu-- look for the DHA on label! All very good!
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#20 Old 05-03-2016, 10:18 AM
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Hey Rowdya, there definitely is a test to check for Omega 3 deficiencies i had it done a couple of weeks ago, and after getting my results i really think more vegans should be doing it.

I got my test done by HQT Diagnostics it was VERY detailed, HQT i believe are based in Germany but i have definitely heard of new Omega 3 tests in the USA too. I too have been suffering with dry eyes and fatigue issues which was my reason for taking the test, my doctor was telling me that more DHA is needed and stored in our eyes than anywhere else in the body. "DHA (docosahexaenoic acid, 22:6n-3) is now recognized as a physiologically-essential nutrient in the brain and retina (of the eye) where it is required in high concentrations for providing optimal mental performance (neuronal functioning) and visual acuity, respectively."

Unfortunately the test came back confirming everything that my doctor had been implying and i had been denying. I had previously been made to believe by vegan nutritionists that as long as i consumed enough ALA from flax and chia etc then my body would covert that into all the DHA/EPA which turned out to be NOT TRUE. My wife and i both got tested and both of our DHA/EPA scores were dangerously low. It appears you can consume all the flax, chia you want, we were both having AT LEAST two heaped spoonfuls a day, but now i have learnt the conversion rate from ALA to DHA/EPA has been proven to be anywhere from just 5%-12% and looking at my results it's just not anywhere near as effective as it needs to be.

OVERALL OMEGA 3: 2.7%
DHA: 1.98
EPA 0.35

These extremely low DHA/EPA scores were also causing an unhealthy Omega 6:3 ratio of 25:1 for both of us, which isn't good for cardiovascular health, our Omega 6 scores were perfect so it definitely wasn't being caused by too much Omega 6 it was being caused by too little Omega 3, particularly DHA/EPA because we haven't been consuming any!

I too have just started trying to take some vegan algae supplements but unfortunately despite trying three different types they all really rev'd me up causing both insomnia and heart palpitations.

BTW here's just some of the research/studies that confirm the low conversion rate from ALA to DHA/EPA

Burdge, G.C., and Calder, P.C. Conversion of a-linolenic acid to longer-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids in human adults. Reprod. Nutr. Dev. 45: 581-597, 2005.

Burdge, G.C., and Wootton , S.A. Conversion of a-linolenic acid to eicosapentaenoic, docosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids in young women. Brit. J. Nutr. 88: 411-420, 2002.

Burdge, G.C., et al. Eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids are the principle products of alpha-linolenic acid metabolism inyoung men. Brit. J. Nutr. 88: 355-363, 2002.

Chan. J.K., et al. Effects of dietary alpha-linolenic acid and its ratio to linoleic acid on platelet and plasma fatty acids and thrombogenesis. Lipids. 28: 811-817, 1993.

Emken, E.A., et al . Dietary linolenic acid influences desaturation and acylation of deuterium-labeled linoleic and linolenic acids in young adult males. Biochim. Biophys. Acta. 1213: 277-288, 1994.

Food and Nutrition Board, Institute of Medicine. Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids (Macronutrients). A report of the Panel on Macronutrients, Subcommittess on Upper Reference Levels of Nutrients and Interpretation and Uses of Dietary Reference Intakes, and the Standing Committee on the Scientific Evaluation of Dietary Reference Intakes. National Academy Press, Washington , DC , 2002.

Francois, C.A., et al . Supplementing lactating women with flaxseed oil does not increase docosahexaenoic acid in their milk. AJCN. 77: 226-233, 2003.

Gerster, H. Can adults adequately convert a-linolenic acid (18:3n-3) to eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5n-3) and docosahexaenoic acid (22:6n-3)? Int. J. Vit. Nutr. Res. 68: 159-173, 1998.

Hussein, N., et al. Long-chain conversion of [13C]linoleic acid and a-linolenic acid in response to marked changes in their dietary intake in men. J. Lipid. Res. 46: 269-280, 2005.

Lamptey, M.S., and Walker, B. L. A possible essential role for dietary linolenic acid in the development of the young rat. J. Nutr. 106(1): 86-93, 1976.

Pawlosky, R. J., et al . Physiological compartmental analysis of alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in adult humans. J. Lipid Res. 42(8):1257-1265, 2001.

Last edited by silva; 05-03-2016 at 04:30 PM. Reason: Advocating egg consumption in vegan forum
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#21 Old 05-03-2016, 10:26 AM
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P.S how annoying is the dry eyes thing? Do you constantly blinking when you are looking at computer screens or televisions? I do. Given my DHA/EPA scores my doctor really thinks that's what could be causing it.
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#22 Old 05-03-2016, 10:50 AM
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http://www.pcrm.org/health/health-to...al-fatty-acids

Obtaining omega-3s from plant sources is more beneficial for one’s health. Research has shown that omega-3s are found in a more stable form, ALA, in vegetables, fruits, and beans.13 For healthy individuals, natural conversion of ALA to the longer chain omega-3s, DHA and EPA, should be sufficient to maintain tissue function.14 In fact, according to a European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC) study, women on vegan diets actually have more long-chain omega-3s in their blood compared with fish-eaters, meat-eaters, and lacto-ovo vegetarians.15
Flaxseeds for Omega-3s

Flaxseed oil and ground flaxseeds are particularly good choices to meet your needs for omega-3 fatty acids. One teaspoon of flaxseed oil or one tablespoon of ground flaxseed will supply the daily requirement of ALA. Flaxseeds must be ground in order for you to absorb the proper nutrients, and flaxseed oil or ground flaxseeds must be stored in the refrigerator or the freezer to protect them from oxygen damage. Also, keep in mind that heat will damage the omega-3s in flaxseed oil, so it is important not to heat this oil. A spoonful of ground flaxseeds can be added to a smoothie or sprinkled on breakfast cereal, a salad, or other dish for easy and efficient incorporation of omega-3s into the diet.
Plant Foods Rich in Omega-3 Fatty Acids

Ground flaxseed (flax meal)
Walnuts
Soybeans
Mungo beans: Mungo beans are particularly high in omega-3 fatty acids.
They are sold in many Indian groceries and may be found
under the name "urid."

Omega-3 Content of Natural Oils16,17

Flaxseed 53-62%
Canola 11%
Walnut 10%
Wheat germ 7%
Soybean 7%
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#23 Old 05-03-2016, 11:27 AM
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@LedBoots note the word SHOULD from your extract "natural conversion of ALA to the longer chain omega-3s, DHA and EPA, SHOULD be sufficient"

Well me and my wife can tell you from personal experience it wasn't sufficient. We've had the Omega blood tests done and our DHA/EPA scores were dangerously low, i almost didn't have any EPA left at all? Despite us having two heaped tablespoons of flax/chia on our breakfast EVERY morning and putting flax/chia in all our smoothies.

I really think every vegan should be getting this blood test done rather than just blindly hoping that their body is converting enough ALA to DHA/EPA. I've posted over 11 studies that confirm that the average rate of conversion is somewhere between 5%-12% that's not good enough to not consume any DHA/EPA in your diet at all IMO

I don't think it will be long before just like B12 most vegans accept that they need to be supplementing DHA/EPA as well. Human breast milk is literally bursting with DHA/EPA because we as humans need it, don't you think it's strange not consuming any at all?

Last edited by jhothehornet; 05-03-2016 at 11:34 AM.
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