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#1 Old 09-25-2010, 02:26 PM
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Suppose that one of your friends, family members, or coworkers eats meat, despite having known for many years about factory farming. The two of you happily continue on in your relationship, agreeing to disagree about this one particular issue.

Now, suppose you find out that one of your friends is severely beating his wife. Or suppose you find out that one of your coworkers is stealing money from the company. Or you find out that one of your family members has been molesting your children.

We all instinctively know that it is a bad idea to react to the meat eater in the same manner as we would to the other individuals above. Yet, the person who eats meat is knowingly causing just as much harm, if not more, than any of the other people above.


I believe that there are times when it is appropriate to aggressively condemn certain individuals based on their bad behavior. However, there are also times when it is not appropriate.


I have spent a long time thinking about a comprehensive set of criteria which determine how to decide this, and here is what I have come up with:


1. Is the behavior considered socially acceptable by the society you are in?

If virtually everyone is upset about spousal abuse, they can prevent people from engaging in it by having a policy of socially ostracizing anyone who beats his wife. In general, societies are far more effective at preventing undesirable behavior with the threat of socially ostracizing than with criminal punishments. This is why crime rates in certain cultures are so low. If you know that the price for violating a social norm is that no one, not even your own parents, will ever speak to you again, no one dares violate it.

However, this is not effective if the people who are upset about the behavior are in the minority. If vegans refuse to have social interaction with the rest of society, they would only be punishing themselves, and not the meat eaters. However, a vegan still has to socially ostracize the people who engage in socially unacceptable behavior (men who are beating their wives, etc.), otherwise the vegan themself might get socially ostracized for interacting with such individuals.


2. Does being involved with this person/group help or hurt your ability to accomplish other goals you wish to accomplish?

You might have serious objections to the things someone else is doing, but you work with them anyway because it is beneficial for an important goal . An example of this is the the United States and the Soviet Union working together to defeat Nazi Germany. Similarly, you might work with non-vegan coworkers, without being too critical of their meat eating, because being too critical would hurt the task at hand: Earning money for vegan advocacy outside the workplace. (Though, that's not to say you don't explain your veganism to your coworkers.)

On the other hand, someone might be an otherwise nice guy, but they might have one particular problem which would cause them to hurt your cause if you were to work with them. Say, for example, a vegan activist who has difficulty interacting in a respectful manner with people, which not only hurts your message, but might even cause the police and local businesses to find some legal technicality to get rid of you, whereas they might otherwise have been perfectly happy letting you distribute your leaflets in that area .

And hence we have #3:

3. Is the person a member of your organization, or representing you or your cause?

If you are the owner of a store, dealing with an angry customer who is rude to the employees is fundamentally different than dealing with an angry employee who is rude to customers. In the case of the rude customer, you try to be polite and accommodating. In the case of the rude employee, you tell them that this behavior is not acceptable, and fire them if it continues.

The sermon on the mount taught turning the other cheek, but this doesn't mean allowing pedophile priests to continue molesting children. I think this is a message much needed to be learned by the AR movement. We seem to have a much more "forgiving" attitude for activists than the people we are protesting against. In reality, the AR activists need to be held to a much higher standard, and not a lower one.


4. Is there deception involved?

Suppose someone openly disagrees with you about an issue, and doesn't try to hide the fact that he engages in behavior you object to. In this case, there is plenty of potential for constructive dialog, and I can work together with this person on other tasks. On the other hand, if someone lies to you about his behavior, this is a totally different matter.

This deception issue applies to all areas of life, and not just veganism, but in terms of AR an extreme example would be someone who tries to get on your good side by telling you he is a strict vegan who has never touched meat in his life, and then you find out that he eats steak every single night. I would much rather be friends with a butcher who is honest, than with a person such as this. Once someone lies to you, you can never believe anything they say.

(Note: This is not to be confused with people who simply don't understand the definition of vegetarianism. These are still good people who we should work with.)


5. Is the person you are interacting with an aggressive personality type?

Usually, when you have a dispute with someone over something which needs to be resolved, being polite and accommodating is usually the way to go. Even if you think they are unreasonable in what they are demanding, if they feel strongly about it, giving them what they want in this particular dispute will cause them to want to be polite and accommodating to you when the next bone of contention arises.

On the other hand, there are some cases where you run into people with aggressive personality types, and appeasing an aggressor only makes them more aggressive. Unlike most people, who demand certain things because they feel it is fair, the aggressive personality type is just probing you for weakness. If they detect it, they will run right over you. The sooner you stop them from building momentum, the easier it will be on you in the end.


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#2 Old 09-25-2010, 06:27 PM
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my sister has said it best to me at one point...."you are trying to humanize animals". While that may be true, unfortunately, that IS how most of society looks at livestock...as food, and not as something that should be treated humanely and ethically.
So, while I understand and agree with some of what you say, the majority are not going to find truth in what you write. livestock are a commodity to be bought, sold, and eaten, and at this point, will never be looked upon as equally as spousal or parter abuse is

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#3 Old 09-25-2010, 06:36 PM
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my sister has said it best to me at one point...."you are trying to humanize animals". While that may be true, unfortunately, that IS how most of society looks at livestock...as food, and not as something that should be treated humanely and ethically.
So, while I understand and agree with some of what you say, the majority are not going to find truth in what you write. livestock are a commodity to be bought, sold, and eaten, and at this point, will never be looked upon as equally as spousal or parter abuse is

I've no doubt at all that she would have gone along with the prevailing ideas about black folks had she been a white living in the south some time ago too. They were a commodity to be bought, sold, and worked - and whipped when they didn't - and not much more.

We're fortunate today to have been born the right species, because people like this would ignore your subjectivity and suffering and kill you if they feel like it, because you don't look like them.

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#4 Old 09-25-2010, 06:37 PM
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I think that is the root of the problem...people seeing animals as inferior, not deserving of the same rights as humans. Until people can realize that other animals are not that different from humans and that they deserve to have a lot of the same rights and respect and dignity as human beings, people will not stop using animals...whether to be eaten, for lab experiments, or anything else.
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#5 Old 09-25-2010, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Photojess View Post

my sister has said it best to me at one point...."you are trying to humanize animals". While that may be true, unfortunately, that IS how most of society looks at livestock...as food, and not as something that should be treated humanely and ethically.
So, while I understand and agree with some of what you say, the majority are not going to find truth in what you write. livestock are a commodity to be bought, sold, and eaten, and at this point, will never be looked upon as equally as spousal or parter abuse is


The fact that the majority of people don't yet agree with the AR perspective is precisely the reason for writing what I did above.

Think of it this way: I am responding to the question, "If I believe that meat is murder, then why don't I treat all meat eaters the same way I treat serial killers."

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#6 Old 09-25-2010, 10:39 PM
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I don't agree with treating animals with disrespect.
However- I do think that it is 'nature' to put your own species first before you start thinking and respecting any other species.
So I think that a lot of humans are still at the point in their evolution where they can only consider their own species.

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#7 Old 09-26-2010, 03:57 AM
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I agree with Wednesday.

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Think of it this way: I am responding to the question, "If I believe that meat is murder, then why don't I treat all meat eaters the same way I treat serial killers."



When I posted on my Facebook wall about how I think Derrick Chambers of Baltimore, Maryland, should be charged with murder for beating his miniature pinscher to death with a baseball bat, a friend of mine responded (after agreeing with me that Chambers is a monster), "But we have a hard enough time getting murderers accused with murder." Which says to me two things:

a) Most of society does not consider killing animals murder, because they eat animals and do not consider themselves murderers for being complicit in the act of slaughter.

and b) Humanity will always put its own interests above the interests of other species.
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#8 Old 09-26-2010, 07:44 AM
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However- I do think that it is 'nature' to put your own species first before you start thinking and respecting any other species.
So I think that a lot of humans are still at the point in their evolution where they can only consider their own species.

1) There is no connection between "putting your own species first before thinking about any other species" and how animals are treated in modern society. Putting our own species first is perfectly compatible with, at the very least, not supporting factory farming. Unless, of course, what we mean by "putting our own species first" is not just that we are more important than other species, but that even the most trivial of our desires for pleasure will override even the most fundamental welfare interest of other species.

If we wanted to describe the status quo of how we relate to other species in terms of a hierarchy, it would not be like this:
1. humans
2. companion animals
3. cows, pigs, chickens, etc.

It would be more like this:
1. humans
..
..
..
..
..
799. cows, pigs, chickens, etc.

2) Manifestly, average people are not at a point in their "evolution" where they can only consider their own species. We have welfare laws, and some people (who still eat meat) care about their companion animals very much: they mourn for them, consider them (sometimes) members of their family, are deeply offended when they read about animal cruelty, and sometimes even risk their lives trying to save non-humans.

It's clear that it's not about whether we have concern outside our own species or not. It's about the culturally determined ways in which we have that concern -- how we divide the animals into those we just have as companions and care for (although even that people frequently **** up, as evidenced by the situation with animal shelters), and into those we don't give a **** about. Which brings me to:

3) Positing any form of behavior -- especially something as cultural, ideological, political, moral as the treatment of non-humans in the current societal context -- as "nature" seems quite a strong claim. Personally, I don't consider the separation of biological causes and cultural causes in explaining behavior as very clear (although I tend to strongly favor the latter). At any rate, positing something as "nature" is a way to diminish our responsibility and agency, throwing us at the mercy of external forces that control us.

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#9 Old 09-26-2010, 08:28 AM
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"If I believe that meat is murder, then why don't I treat all meat eaters the same way I treat serial killers."

Had to check my title to be sure. Yup, Meat is Murder. Good call.

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#10 Old 09-26-2010, 10:34 AM
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There are some really good insights in your guidelines. Thoughtful, kudoos
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#11 Old 10-01-2010, 06:03 PM
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I do believe meat is murder. I think anyone killing any animal other than for necessity is murder. But I don't have the privilege of knowing any serial killers (of humans), so I don't treat them any specific way.
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#12 Old 10-02-2010, 10:08 AM
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Do you think there were people a couple of hundred years ago who said something like, "African slaves are a commodity to be bought, sold, used, and at this point, they will never be looked upon as equals"?

absolutely! so it would be great if in another 20-50 yrs, Veg*nism will be looked upon as the norm or not a subculture of "those who want to be different".

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#13 Old 10-02-2010, 10:14 AM
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ok so no one is answering his question.
for me, obviously, I'm not treating all of the omni's in my life including all of my family, husband, and children as serial killers. There would be no one left in my life except all of you people online. It's not practical, BECAUSE of society's views on meat consumption.

In the last yr and a half I"ve been veg, I've seen more info become a little more main stream and people are talking more freely about it in the media. It's a slow process, but we have to keep urging people to make a difference and make changes, and those people have to understand WHY they need to make a difference, not just be told to stop eating meat.

so to the OP, do you treat all of the omni's in your life as serial killers? Are you lonely?

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#14 Old 10-02-2010, 01:04 PM
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Eating meat will never be considered evil by society at large. The issue of slavery had to be settled in the bloodiest way possible. Slave states were never going to give up their prerogative voluntarily. You think a really good education campaign would have made the difference then? And eating meat is far more entrenched now than slavery was then. I think nothing except widespread famine, avian flu making its way into factory operations, plus fear caused by widespread bacterial contamination of beef, will ever be enough to entice most people to rethink the way they eat. That's the perfect storm I think it would take, based on stark necessity, lack of meat options. That's what it takes to make seitan and tofu look like a great idea. Nobody wants their liberty restricted, and if vegan campaigns ever got to the point of having state backing (not that I can see that happening), the populace would revolt against the "nanny state" that was trying to steal away their freedom and tell them what to eat. We're seeing that anyway! I think people who know the issues feel bad about animals living in misery and dying in agony. But I don't think people in general will ever feel bad about the fact they are eating killed animals, if they are convinced the animals' lives didn't suck and that they were killed swiftly. It's only a sensitive sliver of the population that gets upset about the death itself. No way will eating killed animals ever be considered evil by society at large. Lethal maybe, if the right microbes are involved, but not evil.
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#15 Old 10-02-2010, 01:10 PM
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Eating meat will never be considered evil by society at large.

A bold statement, but also a defeatist attitude.

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#16 Old 10-02-2010, 02:00 PM
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I hear Joan Kennedy got a really good deal on eBay on that crystal ball. $10 was it?

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#17 Old 10-02-2010, 02:31 PM
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I believe everything.
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#18 Old 10-02-2010, 08:50 PM
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Saying my attitude is defeatist doesn't really address any points or refute any errors in what I wrote above. I wasn't just making up random assertions and prophecies, but trying to lay out my reasons for believing as I do. If you can sincerely envision a vegan world in our future, or even a couple of generations down the line, I would be very interested in how you see us getting there from here.

And going back to the original post in this thread, I have to say I think Meat Is Murder is pretty much the opposite of an effective message to communicate to the public. It sets up adversarial relations between speaker and listener. It's loaded with far too much "I'm good and you're evil," and it lacks the empathetic ring that persuaders use to build rapport and draw people in. I'm not saying Eugene is using it as a slogan, but if it's what he truly believes, then that's what he's communicating, regardless of the words he uses. I think the only kind of person who could really pull off such a message would be some Enlightened Being, someone who'd maybe spearhead a wildly popular religious or spiritual movement with veganism as a primary tenet. Are you aware of any Enlightened Beings who might be up for the task? That might sound facetious and sarcastic, but I don't really mean it that way. The enormity of the undertaking would seem to me to require an EB. Humankind has coughed up several well known ones already, maybe thousands more who lived in obscurity, and right now there are more people alive than in all past ages combined. So there should be a few of them rattling around somewhere on earth. I wonder if any of them are vegan.

Absent a charismatic, trustworthy, genuinely enlightened spiritual leader, I believe that Meat Is Suicide has more going for it: meat as it contributes to heart attack, stroke, obesity, food poisoning, cancer, and environmental devastation. Self-interest has been known to motivate change in people who are unmoved by pictures of big-eyed calves and fluffy yellow chicks.
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#19 Old 10-02-2010, 09:59 PM
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And going back to the original post in this thread, I have to say I think Meat Is Murder is pretty much the opposite of an effective message in communicating with the public. It sets up adversarial relations between speaker and listener. It's loaded with far too much "I'm good and you're evil," and it lacks the empathetic ring that persuaders use to build rapport and draw people in.

It's been quite a while since I saw Meet Your Meat, but as far as I remember, it focused on issues of animal treatment and not on the moral qualities of Alec Baldwin. In this context, "sets up adversarial relations" and "lacks the empathetic ring" sound to me like psychobabble. It's a clip. It has animals treated horribly. Many people have a strong emotional response to it. Some people react by calling it propaganda, some people will want to do anything not to be a part of it. End of.

Quote:
I'm not saying Eugene is using it as a slogan, but if that's what he truly believes, that's also what he's communicating regardless of the words he uses. I think the only kind of person who could really pull off such a message would be some Enlightened Being, someone who'd maybe spearhead a wildly popular religious or spiritual movement with veganism as a primary tenet.

So what's your criteria for "pulling off such a message"? Euge's been talking about all the numerous positive feedback he's gotten from showing a clip about the treatment of farm animals to people, sounds like "pulling off" to me, and last time I checked, Euge's not an enlightened being.

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Absent a charismatic, trustworthy, genuinely enlightened spiritual leader, I believe that Meat Is Suicide has more going for it: meat as it contributes to heart attack, stroke, obesity, food poisoning, cancer, and environmental devastation. Self-interest has been known to motivate change in people who are unmoved by pictures of big-eyed calves and fluffy yellow chicks.

What "Meat is suicide" has going for it is hyperbole IMO.

Francione's five principles of vegan advocacy (discussed in another thread here recently) have some application to your comment, mainly the first two principles:

Quote:
Principle #1: People are good at heart.
Our default position when we talk with people ought to be that they are good at heart, and interested in, and educable about, moral issues. There is a tendency among at least some advocates to have a very misanthropic view of other humans and to see them as being inherently immoral or uninterested in issues of morality. I disagree with that view


Principle #2: People are not stupid.
There is a tendency among animal advocates to believe that the general public is not able to understand the arguments in favor of veganism and that we must “go easy” and instead of talking about veganism, we should talk about vegetarianism, “Meat Free Monday,” “happy” meat and animal products, etc. I disagree with this very elitist way of thinking about other people. There is no mystery here; there is nothing complicated. People can understand if we teach effectively.


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made of weak and useless men"

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#20 Old 10-02-2010, 10:23 PM
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"Meet Your Meat" is about mistreatment of animals aside from killing them for their meat: overcrowding, abuse, painful and drawn-out deaths. It is not about whether eating animals for food is inherently evil in and of itself, as is implied in the statement "Meat is Murder," which I hear often in vegan circles and is a direct quote from Eugene. I wrote that I believe the public will never believe killing for meat is evil, though many might disagree with the way animals are treated while they are still alive. It's the message "Meat Is Murder" that I think makes people in general regard vegans, vegetarians and AR activists as isolated kooks at the margins of society and powerless to effect real change.
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#21 Old 10-02-2010, 10:30 PM
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"Meet Your Meat" is about mistreatment of animals aside from killing them for their meat: overcrowding, abuse, painful and drawn-out deaths.

That is true. But the abuses in animal agriculture can start a discussion (even an internal one) that leads to the deeper moral questions about animal exploitation as such. They sure did for me.

Quote:
I wrote that I believe the public will never believe killing for meat is evil, though many might disagree with the way animals are treated while they are still alive. It's the message "Meat Is Murder" that I think makes people in general regard vegans, vegetarians and AR activists as isolated kooks at the margins of society and powerless to affect real change.

What is this vague entity called "the public"? Are all the vegans and vegetarians on this board not members of it?

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#22 Old 10-02-2010, 10:42 PM
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What is this vague entity called "the public"? Are all the vegans and vegetarians on this board not members of it?

You're kidding, right? Do you think I write "the public" to mean every single member without exception believes what the vast majority of the public believes? As I've complained to you on other threads, if you pretend not to understand an obvious usage and thereby distract from the larger point being discussed, you make communication impossible between the two of us.
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#23 Old 10-02-2010, 11:15 PM
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Saying my attitude is defeatist doesn't really address any points or refute any errors in what I wrote above.

Actually it does. It was directed at your 'never' comment, although later in your post you go on to give an example of how that could become true. Contradictory I guess. More to the point, I grow tired of hearing or reading these kinds of statements. Especially about veganism. When you make claims about how veganism will never be accepted (or something to that effect), it implies that you're giving up.

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I wasn't just making up random assertions and prophecies, but trying to lay out my reasons for believing as I do.

Actually you were making up random assertions and prophecies, although contradictory. Well, okay, maybe not random, but they were assertions and prophecies according to you.

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If you can sincerely envision a vegan world in our future, or even a couple of generations down the line, I would be very interested in how you see us getting there from here.

I would like to see a vegan world in my future and I'm doing what I can to make that a reality. A social movement doesn't necessarily require that any one person, or even myself (really, I'm not that important), to have the movement worked out in great detail. The movement itself just needs to gain momentum.

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#24 Old 10-03-2010, 04:15 AM
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I believe fake meat will replace real meat one day. If scientists can create a healthy, delicious, inexpensive version in a lab, I believe most people would prefer that. Once there is no selfish reason to kill animals, I think killing animals will be seen for what it is; barbarism.
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#25 Old 10-03-2010, 04:45 AM
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You're kidding, right? Do you think I write "the public" to mean every single member without exception believes what the vast majority of the public believes?

You seem to focus on "the majority", but I focus on the exceptions. The exceptions show that the public can be receptive to our message, and that there is hope for the better.

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#26 Old 10-03-2010, 05:06 AM
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so to the OP, do you treat all of the omni's in your life as serial killers? Are you lonely?


I thought it was clear from my first post in this thread that I was explaining reasons NOT to treat meat eaters the same way we treat serial killers, even if we view their actions as morally equivalent.


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#27 Old 10-03-2010, 05:20 AM
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"Meet Your Meat" is about mistreatment of animals aside from killing them for their meat: overcrowding, abuse, painful and drawn-out deaths. It is not about whether eating animals for food is inherently evil in and of itself, as is implied in the statement "Meat is Murder," which I hear often in vegan circles and is a direct quote from Eugene. I wrote that I believe the public will never believe killing for meat is evil, though many might disagree with the way animals are treated while they are still alive. It's the message "Meat Is Murder" that I think makes people in general regard vegans, vegetarians and AR activists as isolated kooks at the margins of society and powerless to effect real change.


Although the information in "Meet Your Meat" video , and in the "Why Vegan" pamphlet only focus on information about factory farming and slaughterhouse conditions, many people nevertheless respond by never wanting to eat another animal, irrespective of how well the animal was treated.

Upon giving this information to people, I have seen many people become ethical vegetarians or vegans instantly (or at least committed to eventually becoming one). That is, they are now ethically opposed to the killing of animals for food in principle, even though they themsleves were meat eaters just a few seconds ago. Clearly these are good people. Until I inform someone, I do not view them as responsible for their actions, but I view myself as responsible for their actions for not having told them.

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(My animal rights FAQ)
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#28 Old 10-03-2010, 06:53 AM
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Actually it does. It was directed at your 'never' comment, although later in your post you go on to give an example of how that could become true. Contradictory I guess. More to the point, I grow tired of hearing or reading these kinds of statements. Especially about veganism. When you make claims about how veganism will never be accepted (or something to that effect), it implies that you're giving up.

I'm not giving up. I never got started. Not on trying to make this a vegan world. And I did not give an example of how people as a whole could come to believe that eating meat is evil, unless you count my suggestion to enlist the support of an Enlightened Being. I don't think that's what you mean. If you mean my suggestion that fear for one's life and lack of available meat could effect a massive change, yes I believe it could. But it could not convince people that eating meat is evil. Nothing will ever do that. As far as the bulk of my species is concerned, eating meat is a healthful, delicious way to sustain one's energy needs.

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Originally Posted by nogardsram View Post

Actually you were making up random assertions and prophecies, although contradictory. Well, okay, maybe not random, but they were assertions and prophecies according to you.

And nobody has addressed their merits, which I tried to support with my own reasons for believing what I do. The whole slavery/meat comparison is preposterous to me, and I tried to explain why. Look what it took to dislodge slavery, and back then most free citizens did not own slaves. Most free citizens today would be fighting mad if you tried to take away their Whoppers and their hot wings. They might not think strongly about it now, but they most assuredly will if their access to it is threatened. Meat means more to most free people today than slavery meant to most free people then, was my assertion, and it took a long and bloody civil war to end slavery. Can you refute that?

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Originally Posted by nogardsram View Post

I would like to see a vegan world in my future and I'm doing what I can to make that a reality. A social movement doesn't necessarily require that any one person, or even myself (really, I'm not that important), to have the movement worked out in great detail. The movement itself just needs to gain momentum.

What I mean, is does anyone have a blueprint for providing that momentum? For taking veganism from a fringe movement involving half a percent of the population to the normal way to be? Leaflets and videos light a spark under dry tinder. What's needed is a way to dry more of the tinder. In our society, from where I see it our tinder is pretty keen on staying damp.
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#29 Old 10-03-2010, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Joan Kennedy View Post

I'm not giving up. I never got started. Not on trying to make this a vegan world.

So what you're doing is making armchair predictions about other people's efforts while engaging in no such efforts yourself?

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Look what it took to dislodge slavery, and back then most free citizens did not own slaves.

As far as I know, slavery did exist outside the US, and not every country engaging in it had a civil war about it.

Anyway, I don't know why we are discussing these premonitions about what "the public" will or will not think, in this thread. They have no relevance to the merits of vegan advocacy as such, since any incremental step of making someone vegan is good by itself, as a group of vegans reduces the demand for animal products. And I don't think they address the issue of how to respond to evil.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#30 Old 10-03-2010, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

So what you're doing is making armchair predictions about other people's efforts while engaging in no such efforts yourself?

As far as I know, slavery did exist outside the US, and not every country engaging in it had a civil war about it.

Anyway, I don't know why we are discussing these premonitions about what "the public" will or will not think, in this thread. They have no relevance to the merits of vegan advocacy as such, since any incremental step of making someone vegan is good by itself, as a group of vegans reduces the demand for animal products. And I don't think they address the issue of how to respond to evil.

If you can envision how to get to a vegan world from the world we live in now, I'd like to know what the broad strokes of the blueprint are. The only scenarios that I see getting us there(my crystal ball needs windexing, but it's not that hard to project what would or will happen if current indicators hold) are post-apocalyptic in nature, and I'm not interested in hastening any doomsdays.

Yes, slavery did and does exist outside the US. England and Canada ended slavery without war. The North ended slavery in the Northern states with some consternation but without resorting to war to make it happen. In all these places slavery had viable economic alternatives, and abolitionist sentiment did not therefore fall on deaf ears. The US South, like islands in the Caribbean, had a hard-entrenched slave economy. Slavery made the best economic sense for those plantation owners, who would not give up without a fight. Slavery there was dislodged after either war or insurrection. The meat industry is as well-entrenched in the US as the slave-based southern economy was then.
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