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#1 Old 03-23-2010, 02:12 PM
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I'm new here so if this has been beaten to death I'm sorry but I'm just curious what the issue people have with owning domestic Animals?



I recently starting eating a Vegan Diet and have been donig a lot of reading, I was surprised to find many people against it?



I have two dogs and I love them to bits, couldn't imagine my life without them, they are my children.\\



I did see that there was a sub section for Companion Animals but it's about the people who love the idea, are there any people on here that disagree with it, or was I just reading some off in left field junk?
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#2 Old 03-23-2010, 02:58 PM
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I keep pets. I love my three little pusscats very much. I have, however come across many people on the internet who seem to find the word "pet" offensive. I think as long as the animal is happy and healthy, there isn't a problem.

"If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -Sirius Black
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#3 Old 03-23-2010, 03:19 PM
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Yes, I say don't worry about what someone says about having pets. I too would never live without my cats. I have only one 17 year old cat now.



I believe in having pets responsibly. Not buying from a breeder, spay and neuter etc.



If someone has a problem with it, they can go talk to someone else because I'm not going to listen.
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#4 Old 03-23-2010, 03:29 PM
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#5 Old 03-23-2010, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Teresa View Post

Yes, I say don't worry about what someone says about having pets. I too would never live without my cats. I have only one 17 year old cat now.



I believe in having pets responsibly. Not buying from a breeder, spay and neuter etc.



If someone has a problem with it, they can go talk to someone else because I'm not going to listen.



My thoughts exactly!
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#6 Old 03-23-2010, 04:14 PM
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Do you have a problem with adoption of children? If not then whats different with the adoption of furrier beasties. My Charlotte is just lovely and perfecto to me, she is snoring next to me the lovely chops that she is
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#7 Old 03-23-2010, 04:26 PM
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Basically when you people say you don't give a crap about anyone who thinks differently, what you are really saying is that you don't give a crap anout the millions of shelter animals who die every day in order to maintain a stock for you to choose your pets from. I see no acknowledgment of the plight of all animals bred for human companionship, just selfish justification for continuing to satisfy your need to acquire animals to live with. You may think of yourself as having done a good deed by rescuing from a shelter, but if you insist on denying the fact that many more animals are killed than not in order for people to obtain a few "lucky" ones to keep in their homes, and persist in maintaining the illusion that humans have a right to collect as many domestic animals as they please with no consideration for the reality that these animals have no choice but to be kept captive you're not much more fit to live with animals than most omnivores.

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#8 Old 03-23-2010, 04:27 PM
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Here's my vegan take on it, for what it's worth:



Humans created the issue of domesticated animals. Thousands of them are put to death every year simply because humans won't own up to this responsibility. I don't think that's fair. We created this situation, we have to take on the responsibility. Taking on that responsibility requires us to do two things:



1 - DO NOT INCREASE DEMAND. This means avoiding breeders and companies that use animals at all costs. There is absolutely zero justification for continuing to breed animals for human pleasure, consumption, entertainment, or science experiments. Do not purchase pets from breeders, don't go to the circus, don't use products that test on animals, avoid unnecessary medical procedures, and be an advocate and activist when and where you can - speak for the animals and try to get horrible practices (like circuses and vivisection, to name a couple) outlawed.



2 - TAKE CARE OF THE ONES THAT ARE HERE. This means adopting/rescuing if you have the financial means, time, and energy to care for an animal. I see nothing wrong with rescuing or adopting an animal brought into this world because of the selfishness of humans and giving that animal the best life possible. In fact we owe it to these creatures, in my mind.





So... Yeah. That's my view, in a nutshell. It can be a complicated issue because certain domesticated animals are obligate carnivores - like snakes and cats. If that is too tricky an ethical issue for people (and I see how it can be), there are plenty of dogs, rodents, etc. who could use good homes and can thrive on veg*n diets.
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#9 Old 03-23-2010, 04:39 PM
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I think vegans differ on this point of view. I think most vegans think it is fine to have a rescue animal as a pet (ie. an animal from a shelter or an animal from a factory farm etc.). However, I believe most vegans (myself included) are against the breeding of animals as pets for humans. The pet industry is a cruel one as is well depicted in the documentary Earthlings (just see how many animals end up in shelters and are killed in shelters every year). Just as importantly, "breeding" animals for human purposes goes against vegan ideology (in my opinion) as vegans believe animals should not be exploited - and breeding animals so they look or act a certain way with all the resulting health problems only for them to end up in shelters is exploiting them . In addition, the arrangement of pet and "owner" is also something which encourages many to see their pet as their property and thus treat their "pet" in less than ideal ways. Finally, pet food for carnivores is also a controversial issue for many vegans as 99% of dog and cat food is factory farmed meat.
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#10 Old 03-23-2010, 04:41 PM
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Sorry somebodyelse and semicharmed - you must have posted while I was still writing... You two have said it better than I could :-)
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#11 Old 03-23-2010, 04:58 PM
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I have thought it would be wonderful if there were waiting lists to adopt pets. In the U.S. we are a far, far way from that. Too many people do not spay and neuter and don't care.



Not really sure what I should have done about my cat I got because my parent's neighbors moved and left her. Left her as a stray? No. I took her. Got her vet care. Spayed. Loved her for over 16 years until she died naturally in my/her living room. Call me selfish. I don't care.
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#12 Old 03-23-2010, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semicharmed View Post

Here's my vegan take on it, for what it's worth:



Humans created the issue of domesticated animals. Thousands of them are put to death every year simply because humans won't own up to this responsibility. I don't think that's fair. We created this situation, we have to take on the responsibility. Taking on that responsibility requires us to do two things:



1 - DO NOT INCREASE DEMAND. This means avoiding breeders and companies that use animals at all costs. There is absolutely zero justification for continuing to breed animals for human pleasure, consumption, entertainment, or science experiments. Do not purchase pets from breeders, don't go to the circus, don't use products that test on animals, avoid unnecessary medical procedures, and be an advocate and activist when and where you can - speak for the animals and try to get horrible practices (like circuses and vivisection, to name a couple) outlawed.



2 - TAKE CARE OF THE ONES THAT ARE HERE. This means adopting/rescuing if you have the financial means, time, and energy to care for an animal. I see nothing wrong with rescuing or adopting an animal brought into this world because of the selfishness of humans and giving that animal the best life possible. In fact we owe it to these creatures, in my mind.





So... Yeah. That's my view, in a nutshell. It can be a complicated issue because certain domesticated animals are obligate carnivores - like snakes and cats. If that is too tricky an ethical issue for people (and I see how it can be), there are plenty of dogs, rodents, etc. who could use good homes and can thrive on veg*n diets.



I think you've stated it well. I personally have no companion animals nor do I want any, to me it's a subtle form of slavery. Also, I have a big problem with the idea of being a vegan myself and keeping other animals alive by feeding them (slaughtered) animal products. That being said, i certainly understand and don't blame people who have it in them to have and look after animals in a "rescue/adoption" capacity.
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#13 Old 03-23-2010, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semicharmed View Post

Here's my vegan take on it, for what it's worth:



Humans created the issue of domesticated animals. Thousands of them are put to death every year simply because humans won't own up to this responsibility. I don't think that's fair. We created this situation, we have to take on the responsibility. Taking on that responsibility requires us to do two things:



1 - DO NOT INCREASE DEMAND. This means avoiding breeders and companies that use animals at all costs. There is absolutely zero justification for continuing to breed animals for human pleasure, consumption, entertainment, or science experiments. Do not purchase pets from breeders, don't go to the circus, don't use products that test on animals, avoid unnecessary medical procedures, and be an advocate and activist when and where you can - speak for the animals and try to get horrible practices (like circuses and vivisection, to name a couple) outlawed.



2 - TAKE CARE OF THE ONES THAT ARE HERE. This means adopting/rescuing if you have the financial means, time, and energy to care for an animal. I see nothing wrong with rescuing or adopting an animal brought into this world because of the selfishness of humans and giving that animal the best life possible. In fact we owe it to these creatures, in my mind.





So... Yeah. That's my view, in a nutshell. It can be a complicated issue because certain domesticated animals are obligate carnivores - like snakes and cats. If that is too tricky an ethical issue for people (and I see how it can be), there are plenty of dogs, rodents, etc. who could use good homes and can thrive on veg*n diets.



The only other thing I'd like to add is that I honestly believe that we should spay and neuter absolutely every pet/domesticated animal we can find. We could end the continuation of the overabundance of companion animals in a relatively short period of time if we rendered them all incapable of reproducing. Every single one of them.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#14 Old 03-23-2010, 05:28 PM
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I'm extremely torn on this issue and it's something that I've struggled with for a long time, even before I decided to take the plunge into veganism. I have a rabbit now, who I love with all of my heart and I try my hardest to make sure he has the best. My house is certainly better than the place he was before I got him and I know since he's domesticated that turning him lose would be a death sentence. He seems happy enough, and he has helped with my depression far more than Prozac could ever help. I can't really debate with the opposition about this subject because it's one of those selfish things I wouldn't want to give up, as bad as that sounds.
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#15 Old 03-23-2010, 05:36 PM
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Like semi charmed said..... I think breeding animals for ANY use is completely unacceptable. It leads to what somebodyelse talked about.... over population and mass killing of 'surplus' animals. In my mind this is unacceptable. However I also find it extremely difficult to think of animals being put down and being abandoned. Thats why when I am older i would liek to rescue a couple of animals. However when I do so, I plan on asking for the animal that has been in the shelter the longest and is least likely to be adopted (likely an older dog). That way I will feel like I ahve truly made a difference in the animals life. I also plan on convincing everyone i can that would otherwise buy a companion animal from a shop to go to the SPCA instead. So far I ahve convinced two people. That in my mind is also a compasionate act. These people will purchase an animal regardless of me tryiung to convince them not to, so they may as well rescue an animal from death.
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#16 Old 03-23-2010, 05:40 PM
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I hate the idea of "owning" anything that has a life of it's own. However, in this day and age, having companion animals is a necessary evil in my opinion. Adopting, of course, never, ever from breeders or taking an animal out of the wild. I love my companion dog, I adopted her from a shelter and I feed her vegan dog food, so I don't have guilty feelings about feeding her animals or animal products. However, I would be much happier to know that there were no animals being bred for the purpose of human use while others are dying because of this. Not to mention the fact that so many people abuse their companion animals or don't give them proper love and attention.
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#17 Old 03-23-2010, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jessyka View Post

I'm extremely torn on this issue and it's something that I've struggled with for a long time, even before I decided to take the plunge into veganism. I have a rabbit now, who I love with all of my heart and I try my hardest to make sure he has the best. My house is certainly better than the place he was before I got him and I know since he's domesticated that turning him lose would be a death sentence. He seems happy enough, and he has helped with my depression far more than Prozac could ever help. I can't really debate with the opposition about this subject because it's one of those selfish things I wouldn't want to give up, as bad as that sounds.



You are not selfish and you have done nothing wrong by keeping your rabbit as a pet. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You obviously provide him with a loving home and he returns so much back to you just by existing and enjoying his life. And I will say my cat enjoys her life. When she is gone (and I can hardly stand the thought) I'll adopt again, cats that need a home.



As far as cats and many dogs consuming other animals, I have mentioned on other threads that this is an issue for me. And one I don't know how to resolve. Because, I will not live without my cats. I could not really.



If having pets is a subtle form of slavery, having children is slavery but far from subtle.
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#18 Old 03-23-2010, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Jessyka View Post

I'm extremely torn on this issue and it's something that I've struggled with for a long time, even before I decided to take the plunge into veganism. I have a rabbit now, who I love with all of my heart and I try my hardest to make sure he has the best. My house is certainly better than the place he was before I got him and I know since he's domesticated that turning him lose would be a death sentence. He seems happy enough, and he has helped with my depression far more than Prozac could ever help. I can't really debate with the opposition about this subject because it's one of those selfish things I wouldn't want to give up, as bad as that sounds.



You are not selfish and you have done nothing wrong by keeping your rabbit as a pet. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You obviously provide him with a loving home and he returns so much back to you just by existing and enjoying his life. And I will say my cat enjoys her life. When she is gone (and I can hardly stand the thought) I'll adopt again, cats that need a home.



As far as cats and many dogs consuming other animals, I have mentioned on other threads that this is an issue for me. And one I don't know how to resolve. Because, I will not live without my cats. I could not really.



If having pets is a subtle form of slavery, having children is slavery but far from subtle.
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#19 Old 03-23-2010, 08:09 PM
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I have two cats. I believe in taking care of abandoned animals humans have bred into domesticity until, hopefully, there are none left and there will no longer be a need to adopt them. In the immortal words of Bob Barker, "Help control the pet population. Spay and neuter your pets!"
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#20 Old 03-23-2010, 08:14 PM
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I'm new here so if this has been beaten to death I'm sorry but I'm just curious what the issue people have with owning domestic Animals?



I recently starting eating a Vegan Diet and have been donig a lot of reading, I was surprised to find many people against it?

The problem here is that "having a problem with owning domestic animals" is an ambiguous expression. It can mean that someone has a general problem with the way mankind has domesticated other animals for use and continues breeding them, or it can mean that someone is against anyone having companion animals in their home. I have very rarely seen anyone represent the latter position. I don't know which position you're referring to, but if it's the latter, then I think it's likely that others have likewise used ambiguous language and you have misinterpreted it to have the latter meaning.

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#21 Old 03-25-2010, 06:33 AM
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I think vegans differ on this point of view. I think most vegans think it is fine to have a rescue animal as a pet (ie. an animal from a shelter or an animal from a factory farm etc.). However, I believe most vegans (myself included) are against the breeding of animals as pets for humans. The pet industry is a cruel one as is well depicted in the documentary Earthlings (just see how many animals end up in shelters and are killed in shelters every year). Just as importantly, "breeding" animals for human purposes goes against vegan ideology (in my opinion) as vegans believe animals should not be exploited - and breeding animals so they look or act a certain way with all the resulting health problems only for them to end up in shelters is exploiting them . In addition, the arrangement of pet and "owner" is also something which encourages many to see their pet as their property and thus treat their "pet" in less than ideal ways. Finally, pet food for carnivores is also a controversial issue for many vegans as 99% of dog and cat food is factory farmed meat.

I agree with this and other points of view, especially about the responsibility of spaying and neutering and not breeding. However, as far as the shelter animals being put there for demand as SomebodyElse said, although that may be the case for some, from most of the people that I've known that have worked at shelters, the animals are abandoned or left there from previous irresponsible owners and some possibly in different situations(?), those animals need homes, love and care and do not have the developed senses to live in the wild since they have been domesticated. I'm sure they would much rather have a loving home than be stuck in a cage knowing their previous owner abandoned them and/or they've been weaned away from their mother and siblings. Most of those shelters (esp. the no kill ones) are in need of people to help and adopt animals. Pet shops are the ones that are trying to meet supply and demand and breeders, puppy mills and what not. As for vegan foods for animals, if the vegetarian brands aren't suitable, I don't see what's wrong with making a giant bat of whole grain rice, adding some flax and veggies for their animals or something like that. I know not everyone feels the same way about these things, but I know my dog is my best friend and I love her with all of me, I couldn't imagine my life without her and adopting her from her shelter was the best thing I've ever done. (cue the violins or angry rants)



*I've also rescued another dog and cat from near death that were abandoned as puppies/kittens and loaded with worms, fleas, health complications, etc. I have no regrets about that and they are still thriving and enjoy being outdoors and taken care of too- I also love them to pieces, too! (I edited this because I was only talking about a "shelter" animal adoption before). Now that I've put that out there, I've also rescued another kitten that was dropped in a storm drain and found a great home for her after getting her spayed and shots and returned a duck and turtle to health before returning them to a nearby pond (the duckling was watched to make sure it acclimated- I know the family can attack it if it's had human contact- it was and grew to be fine and happy). I've had friend's do the same thing with a deer that was hit by a car (nursed it back to health) before returning it to the wild and the deer always came back to visit. It sounds like I'm in the minority, but I see nothing wrong with this and was not going to sit there and watch these animals die when I could do something about it. Plus, I love them too darn much.



Also, I don't agree with people "owning" exotic pets like gorillas, etc. that were robbed from their wild habitiats.
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#22 Old 03-25-2010, 06:48 AM
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The problem here is that "having a problem with owning domestic animals" is an ambiguous expression. It can mean that someone has a general problem with the way mankind has domesticated other animals for use and continues breeding them, or it can mean that someone is against anyone having companion animals in their home. I have very rarely seen anyone represent the latter position. I don't know which position you're referring to, but if it's the latter, then I think it's likely that others have likewise used ambiguous language and you have misinterpreted it to have the latter meaning.



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#23 Old 03-25-2010, 10:31 AM
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I agree with this and other points of view, especially about the responsibility of spaying and neutering and not breeding. However, as far as the shelter animals being put there for demand as SomebodyElse said, although that may be the case for some, from most of the people that I've known that have worked at shelters, the animals are abandoned or left there from previous irresponsible owners and some possibly in different situations(?), those animals need homes, love and care and do not have the developed senses to live in the wild since they have been domesticated. I'm sure they would much rather have a loving home than be stuck in a cage knowing their previous owner abandoned them and/or they've been weaned away from their mother and siblings. Most of those shelters (esp. the no kill ones) are in need of people to help and adopt animals. Pet shops are the ones that are trying to meet supply and demand and breeders, puppy mills and what not. As for vegan foods for animals, if the vegetarian brands aren't suitable, I don't see what's wrong with making a giant bat of whole grain rice, adding some flax and veggies for their animals or something like that. I know not everyone feels the same way about these things, but I know my dog is my best friend and I love her with all of me, I couldn't imagine my life without her and adopting her from her shelter was the best thing I've ever done. (cue the violins or angry rants)



*I've also rescued another dog and cat from near death that were abandoned as puppies/kittens and loaded with worms, fleas, health complications, etc. I have no regrets about that and they are still thriving and enjoy being outdoors and taken care of too- I also love them to pieces, too! (I edited this because I was only talking about a "shelter" animal adoption before). Now that I've put that out there, I've also rescued another kitten that was dropped in a storm drain and found a great home for her after getting her spayed and shots and returned a duck and turtle to health before returning them to a nearby pond (the duckling was watched to make sure it acclimated- I know the family can attack it if it's had human contact- it was and grew to be fine and happy). I've had friend's do the same thing with a deer that was hit by a car (nursed it back to health) before returning it to the wild and the deer always came back to visit. It sounds like I'm in the minority, but I see nothing wrong with this and was not going to sit there and watch these animals die when I could do something about it. Plus, I love them too darn much.



Also, I don't agree with people "owning" exotic pets like gorillas, etc. that were robbed from their wild habitiats.



And this shows what a caring person you are :-) If only more were like you!!
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#24 Old 03-25-2010, 11:45 AM
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Vegans are more gainst buying pets from stores and breeders. Adopting from an animal shelter is what is often reconmended.



I have no problem with the idea of having a companion animal as long as they are taken care of, as long as they aren't caged.



I prefer people didn't own birds.. I think rabits should be aloud freedom. I'm not sure how I feel about people owning rodents.





Recently I've also become sensitive to Animal Birth Control.



I will admit when I was growing up [between ages 6 and 16] our cats did get out and did come hom pregnant. So we did have many kittens and often gave them away for free or gave them to the local pet store. But we got that under control.

I tell others they need to get their pets fixed because they'd not only be healthy and happy, but it keeps the population of unwanted/homeless animals that much lower.



But if it weren't for my cats getting out and having babies, I wouldn't have the best friend I do now.

I have a cat named Gimpy and I could swear he and I are soul mates. If anything were to ever happen to him my heart would break into a million pieces. He loves me just as much as I love him too. He is definately my BEST friend, so I hope he can live longer than the oldest cat in the world.





But I think when he does leave me I may not own anymore cats for pets. Though I might adopt a dog or a rabbit that could be happy being a Vegan with me :P
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#25 Old 03-25-2010, 02:50 PM
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I have two cats and a dog. They are their own beings, and I own them just as my as I own my little brother. All three are from a shelter, the dog is a pitbull rescued from the damage of Hurricana Katrina. She's such a sweetheart, not your stereotypical pitbull at all. And those cats? If there's any owning going on, they definitely own US.
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#26 Old 03-25-2010, 07:22 PM
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I completely agree that breeding animals for human purposes has to stop, is horribly wrong, and cruel! BUT I think that anyone who can adopt (aka...SAVE) from shelters or rescues should! These animals are already here, saving them from being put to sleep is not supporting anything at that point but the animal and their right to live! My furry family members are my babies, not slaves and we do not OWN them! If anything they rule the house! If we don't save them they are either put to death, sold to research companies, or who knows what other horrible things we humans can think up!

So my opinion is that a veg*n buying a puppy from a breeder would be equal to eating veal, but a veg*n saving an animal from the shelter is just that....SAVING AN ANIMAL!
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#27 Old 03-26-2010, 10:30 AM
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I have 2 dogs and I don't think just because I have them it makes me any less Vegan, or any less passionate about being Vegan or animal rights and healthly choices. In no way shape or form do I believe in having wild animals as pets but these dogs are not capable of surviving on there own. Both are spay/neutered and are unable to reproduce as I do not believe in breeding animals for profit. They are both extremely well cared for and are aloud to roam free on our enclosed/fenced property, and sleep inside with us in our bedroom (usually on the bed) at night, they have eachother for companionship as well as myself and my hubby and are immensly happy dogs, I don't believe that by lending my heart out to these dogs (my children) and making sure they are well cared for makes me any less against animal rights. While my dogs DO eat meat, they are raw fed and all meat is purchased locally and humane. While I will never think it is right for myself to be eating meat, in the wild that's what a wolf/dog would eat, I have a Siberian and a Malamute, so I do not have a problem with feeding them raw meat.



I also do not believe in wasting food, so if I am to purchase something, and later research it to find that it may or may no contain milk products (something that wasn't listed on label, or if my hubby bought it without double checking) I'm not about to throw it out, I will finish it off or let him eat it up if he likes it, and know better next time to purchase another product. Just my two cents I guess.
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#28 Old 03-28-2010, 07:52 AM
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Everyone here is saying to spay/nueter. which I understand. totally. But have any of you watched a spay? I watched a cat be spayed at my mom's vet clinic a few years ago. It's taking out their uterus and ovaries cutting the open and taking out their organs. I was so disgusted. I saw the cat wake up she was so confused (yeah she was drugged). I think that that is wrong too. I don't really know what the better choice is, I guess to decrease the number of domesticated for human use animals... but putting the animals that are here through pain doesn't seem right either.
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#29 Old 03-28-2010, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by dramaqueen753 View Post

Everyone here is saying to spay/nueter. which I understand. totally. But have any of you watched a spay? I watched a cat be spayed at my mom's vet clinic a few years ago. It's taking out their uterus and ovaries cutting the open and taking out their organs. I was so disgusted. I saw the cat wake up she was so confused (yeah she was drugged). I think that that is wrong too. I don't really know what the better choice is, I guess to decrease the number of domesticated for human use animals... but putting the animals that are here through pain doesn't seem right either.



The physical reality of almost ANY surgery - done to humans or animals - is hard for most people to watch. I'm a freak, and I used to watch surgery shows on TV when I was young, and spent a significant portion of time when I was 18 volunteering at the hospital so I could hang around in the pathology lab watching dissections, begging to feel the calcified veins in an amputated leg (the pathologists love me, so they let me!), and rooting through bags of human body parts when they needed to get a hold of an old sample. (I have pictures. Anyone wanna see? I'll totally scan them when I move and PM you! )



Gore simply doesn't affect me. I find the outsides of people to be more offensive than the insides, actually...



Unnecessary pain and suffering breaks my heart, though. If a cat is not properly anesthetized, not monitored for infection, forced to do painful things during recovery... Yes, I'd have a problem with that. But I view the procedure as completely necessary. I think any surgery carries risks - but so does pregnancy.



If someone has a less invasive procedure that will totally ensure a permanently sterile cat, I'm all for it.
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#30 Old 03-28-2010, 08:28 AM
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I have 6 dogs, 1 cat and 2 turtles. All are rescues. I have had other rescues in the past & I know I will have more in the future.



One of my dogs has terrible scars where he was burned by humans when he was puppy. Another was abandoned because he had bad teeth and the list goes on with all of my rescued critters. I'm sure quite a few of us have rescued animals with similar backgrounds.



How can we not help these animals? I realize not everyone is in a position to adopt an animal, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would criticize someone for helping an abandoned or abused animal.
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Until one has loved an animal, part of their soul remains unawakened.

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