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#31 Old 03-28-2010, 08:35 AM
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I think the pain from surgery is less distressing than coming into heat but being frustrated from mating, or the pain caused by having litters that then need to go through the same process. It is a shame that animals have to go through that but it's kind of the lesser of the evils.
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#32 Old 03-28-2010, 11:12 AM
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Everyone here is saying to spay/nueter. which I understand. totally. But have any of you watched a spay? I watched a cat be spayed at my mom's vet clinic a few years ago. It's taking out their uterus and ovaries cutting the open and taking out their organs. I was so disgusted. I saw the cat wake up she was so confused (yeah she was drugged). I think that that is wrong too. I don't really know what the better choice is, I guess to decrease the number of domesticated for human use animals... but putting the animals that are here through pain doesn't seem right either.

I think spay/neuter is ethically problematic, but some way to prevent reproduction is probably necessary. The ethical problems with spay/neuter are one more reason why I don't think the societal practice of having companion animals can be justified.

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#33 Old 03-28-2010, 02:55 PM
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I don't think there is anything wrong with people rescuing animals from shelters. What is wrong is the sense of entitlement even most people with rescued animals have toward domesticated pets. What would your decisions be if by some miracle all shelters were shut down and there were no more animals who need to be saved? Would you then go out and purchase animals from breeders in order to keep "sharing your life" with them?



It's not that rescuing animals from death or abuse is wrong. But people who think there is nothing at all wrong with the idea of humans domesticating animals for companionship really aren't in a position to deny their role in being responsible for so many being put into shelters in the first place. To condone the continued breeding of animals for companionship is to condone many of them being put into shelters, because that is an unavoidable consequence of not having any ethical problems with the whole idea of animals as human companions. As long as people keep thinking it is ok to have animals as companions, people are going to be treating large numbers of these animals as throwaway commodities. I would gladly give up my privilege of living with animals - and it is a privilege, not a right - if it meant that no animal would ever be turned into a shelter or abused. It would be a sad world without dogs and cats living in it, I can't deny that, but the alternative is a nightmare.

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#34 Old 03-28-2010, 03:27 PM
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I personally think that owning animals is not a problem when they have been rescued. My parents live in the country and have 22 "pets". They love them all deeply and care for them with love. The animals (who can survive outside of a cage) are let to roam free. The roosters (they do not have chickens and surprisingly all of the 4 roosters get along), ducks, dogs and cat are all allowed to roam their property. The ferrets, guinea pigs, birds, and lizards were also all rescued and live in cages, but are frequently allowed to run in a "safe room" where they will not be killed by the other animals. They did get one pet from a breeder (Boo a blue nose Pit Bull) and it was horrible. They admit that it was the worst mistake that they made. My mom was against it, but my dad wanted him and had him shipped in a box from Florida (they are in Illinois) and he came scared and a little emaciated. He is the most happy wonderful dog ever, I think that he thinks he is a person. but for a long time and even sometimes now, he was effected by that experience. Their buying from breeders days are over.



Although I think that they own a little to many animals, at least they are all loved and cared for properly with vet care, appropriate food and attention. I will likely have a few pets when my wife and I are done with school and can give them the attention and space to run that they diverse. All of our pets would be rescued.
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#35 Old 03-28-2010, 04:47 PM
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#36 Old 03-28-2010, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semicharmed View Post

Here's my vegan take on it, for what it's worth:



Humans created the issue of domesticated animals. Thousands of them are put to death every year simply because humans won't own up to this responsibility. I don't think that's fair. We created this situation, we have to take on the responsibility. Taking on that responsibility requires us to do two things:



1 - DO NOT INCREASE DEMAND. This means avoiding breeders and companies that use animals at all costs. There is absolutely zero justification for continuing to breed animals for human pleasure, consumption, entertainment, or science experiments. Do not purchase pets from breeders, don't go to the circus, don't use products that test on animals, avoid unnecessary medical procedures, and be an advocate and activist when and where you can - speak for the animals and try to get horrible practices (like circuses and vivisection, to name a couple) outlawed.



2 - TAKE CARE OF THE ONES THAT ARE HERE. This means adopting/rescuing if you have the financial means, time, and energy to care for an animal. I see nothing wrong with rescuing or adopting an animal brought into this world because of the selfishness of humans and giving that animal the best life possible. In fact we owe it to these creatures, in my mind.





So... Yeah. That's my view, in a nutshell. It can be a complicated issue because certain domesticated animals are obligate carnivores - like snakes and cats. If that is too tricky an ethical issue for people (and I see how it can be), there are plenty of dogs, rodents, etc. who could use good homes and can thrive on veg*n diets.



Well said.



Adopt, and treat with respect in my opinion. That's what I did.
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#37 Old 03-28-2010, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

I don't think there is anything wrong with people rescuing animals from shelters. What is wrong is the sense of entitlement even most people with rescued animals have toward domesticated pets. What would your decisions be if by some miracle all shelters were shut down and there were no more animals who need to be saved? Would you then go out and purchase animals from breeders in order to keep "sharing your life" with them?



It's not that rescuing animals from death or abuse is wrong. But people who think there is nothing at all wrong with the idea of humans domesticating animals for companionship really aren't in a position to deny their role in being responsible for so many being put into shelters in the first place. To condone the continued breeding of animals for companionship is to condone many of them being put into shelters, because that is an unavoidable consequence of not having any ethical problems with the whole idea of animals as human companions. As long as people keep thinking it is ok to have animals as companions, people are going to be treating large numbers of these animals as throwaway commodities. I would gladly give up my privilege of living with animals - and it is a privilege, not a right - if it meant that no animal would ever be turned into a shelter or abused. It would be a sad world without dogs and cats living in it, I can't deny that, but the alternative is a nightmare.



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#38 Old 03-28-2010, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dramaqueen753 View Post

Everyone here is saying to spay/nueter. which I understand. totally. But have any of you watched a spay? I watched a cat be spayed at my mom's vet clinic a few years ago. It's taking out their uterus and ovaries cutting the open and taking out their organs. I was so disgusted. I saw the cat wake up she was so confused (yeah she was drugged). I think that that is wrong too. I don't really know what the better choice is, I guess to decrease the number of domesticated for human use animals... but putting the animals that are here through pain doesn't seem right either.



I've been watching spays and neuters for the past couple of weeks at a new clinic associated with the shelter where I volunteer. I'm finding it pretty interesting - a lot less "bloody" than I would have imagined. Last week I saw four mid-term kittens be aborted. That was a reality check. If the owner had taken her cat to be spayed at the proper time, the pregnancy would have never taken place.



As for coming out of anesthesia, yeah, it's kind of uncomfortable to watch as the animals often seem quite stunned. But they do get over it, and the fewer animals we leave to breed, the fewer homeless animals we will have to euthanize later.
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#39 Old 09-20-2014, 04:36 PM
 
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Lots of differing opinions here and that is great. But my idea is that there are no vegan police. No other vegan is going to tell me how to live.

Their arguments are something I consider and then i do what I feel I need to do in all things, including having pets.

I do have pets. They are rescue animals. Having pets makes me more compassionate. i see their little faces and I think, if I couldn't kill them, how could I kill some other wonderful animal?

But this is just me. Like so many issues I listen, weigh the information, get more information if I need it and then make my own bloody decision.

People who are always trying to make the decisions for me are people I don't want around me.
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#40 Old 09-21-2014, 01:01 AM
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It depends on the pet you have.
If you have a horse in a 4x4 apartment, then that is not vegan and probably not by laws either. But if you have a dog and big land where this dog can run and you never use a leash or close your dog in a box then it is fine.

For example, I love bugs and I m beekeeper, I want to live from beekeeping. I want to earn money and I want to have thousands of beehives. Reason for this is that Bees are almost extinct and soon and by soon I mean in a couple of years there will be no bees if we don't act now and get more beehives.

In nature, there are no more bees except killer bees. In my country if we didn't spend big cash to feed them, we would lose all bees in the whole country, this is why this problem is so serious. But remember not all beekeepers are same, some of them just want honey...
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#41 Old 09-21-2014, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Begonia View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by Semicharmed

Here's my vegan take on it, for what it's worth:



Humans created the issue of domesticated animals. Thousands of them are put to death every year simply because humans won't own up to this responsibility. I don't think that's fair. We created this situation, we have to take on the responsibility. Taking on that responsibility requires us to do two things:



1 - DO NOT INCREASE DEMAND. This means avoiding breeders and companies that use animals at all costs. There is absolutely zero justification for continuing to breed animals for human pleasure, consumption, entertainment, or science experiments. Do not purchase pets from breeders, don't go to the circus, don't use products that test on animals, avoid unnecessary medical procedures, and be an advocate and activist when and where you can - speak for the animals and try to get horrible practices (like circuses and vivisection, to name a couple) outlawed.



2 - TAKE CARE OF THE ONES THAT ARE HERE. This means adopting/rescuing if you have the financial means, time, and energy to care for an animal. I see nothing wrong with rescuing or adopting an animal brought into this world because of the selfishness of humans and giving that animal the best life possible. In fact we owe it to these creatures, in my mind.





So... Yeah. That's my view, in a nutshell. It can be a complicated issue because certain domesticated animals are obligate carnivores - like snakes and cats. If that is too tricky an ethical issue for people (and I see how it can be), there are plenty of dogs, rodents, etc. who could use good homes and can thrive on veg*n diets.




I think you've stated it well. I personally have no companion animals nor do I want any, to me it's a subtle form of slavery. Also, I have a big problem with the idea of being a vegan myself and keeping other animals alive by feeding them (slaughtered) animal products. That being said, i certainly understand and don't blame people who have it in them to have and look after animals in a "rescue/adoption" capacity.
I don't see how you can call it slavery.

My cousin has a cat, all this cat does is sit around all day napping and eating food.

Never has to go hungry or worry about predators/dangers/weather/disease/etc.

Seems pretty happy... If the door is left open, it won't even go outside. I'd imagine "slaves" would run at the first chance they get.

This cats life is like if you got everything you wanted and lived in a 5 star hotel for free.
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#42 Old 09-21-2014, 07:26 PM
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I don't see how you can call it slavery.

My cousin has a cat, all this cat does is sit around all day napping and eating food.

Never has to go hungry or worry about predators/dangers/weather/disease/etc.

Seems pretty happy... If the door is left open, it won't even go outside. I'd imagine "slaves" would run at the first chance they get.

This cats life is like if you got everything you wanted and lived in a 5 star hotel for free.
I -think- it's viewed as slavery because there's so many elements that are outside of the animal's control, with things like de-sexing and medications. Animals who are pets have to go to the toilet in predetermined areas, they have to stay inside or wear collars, they get chipped and technically, they're owned by another being which is how slavery works.

While your cousin's cat may not want to go outside, that doesn't mean that there aren't pets who aren't happy with those sorts of arrangements and, if they had the choice, would stay. It's more about the fact that whether an animal goes outside or not is not dependant on the animal's own choice, but the choice of their owner.

Having said all that, I don't think having pets/companion animals is the same as slavery either. I think having pets is important in order for us to stay connected with animals in a lot of ways. A companion animal, or pet, is our first hint as children that something other than humans has an emotion. I think it will be a sad day when we no longer have them in our lives....

And as for cats in specifics....Anyone who thinks a cat is a slave, has obviously never actually spent any time with a cat :P
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#43 Old 09-22-2014, 07:57 PM
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I -think- it's viewed as slavery because there's so many elements that are outside of the animal's control, with things like de-sexing and medications. Animals who are pets have to go to the toilet in predetermined areas, they have to stay inside or wear collars, they get chipped and technically, they're owned by another being which is how slavery works.

While your cousin's cat may not want to go outside, that doesn't mean that there aren't pets who aren't happy with those sorts of arrangements and, if they had the choice, would stay. It's more about the fact that whether an animal goes outside or not is not dependant on the animal's own choice, but the choice of their owner.

Having said all that, I don't think having pets/companion animals is the same as slavery either. I think having pets is important in order for us to stay connected with animals in a lot of ways. A companion animal, or pet, is our first hint as children that something other than humans has an emotion. I think it will be a sad day when we no longer have them in our lives....

And as for cats in specifics....Anyone who thinks a cat is a slave, has obviously never actually spent any time with a cat :P
Aslong as pets are given positive attention and well fed, they will be happy. Thats all they care about anyways, playing and eating.

I'd happily be a "slave" if it meant I got everything I ever wanted/needed and a safe warm place to live. No fear of going hungry, no fear of predators, no worries... You basically have a servant that makes sure everything you need is covered..

Plus, who has ever seen an unhappy dog in a loving home? I haven't.

Last edited by Diesel; 09-22-2014 at 08:00 PM.
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#44 Old 09-22-2014, 09:44 PM
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Aslong as pets are given positive attention and well fed, they will be happy. Thats all they care about anyways, playing and eating.

I'd happily be a "slave" if it meant I got everything I ever wanted/needed and a safe warm place to live. No fear of going hungry, no fear of predators, no worries... You basically have a servant that makes sure everything you need is covered..

Plus, who has ever seen an unhappy dog in a loving home? I haven't.
True.

But I've also seen dogs in loving homes go wild because they found a pack and ran away.

I know one of our cats would love to go outside. Sure, she loves cuddles and gets all the food she could ever want. But she wants to go outside. She can't because she'd kill all the native wildlife. (My plan, once we have a house, is to make a cat run for her, it's a small concession).

The cats have our will imposed on them. My boy cat does NOT want to take his medication (just ask him). But he's forced to. It's probably pretty horrible for him, but it means his life quality might be better.

A book you might like, I haven't read it yet but heard some rave reviews, is "The Awakening". It's fiction, but you might really like it!
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#45 Old 09-23-2014, 03:09 AM
 
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I think the majority of companion animals are well loved and cared for and ultimately happy animals and whilst I can understand some people not liking the idea of humans "owning" animals I don't think you can really compare it to slavery, certainly not in the true sense of the word. There will always be humans who treat their pets appallingly but they are in the minority, most people have pets because they simply love animals and together the bond between human and pet is a very special one and I agree with TL that a world without our pets would be a much duller world.


I would never ever turn to a breeder for a pet. We have a dog called Horace "His Lordship" who we found in a rescue centre two years ago. He was very sad looking and very subdued and it took months for him to really relax around us. He had a lot of issues and had obviously been mistreated so he was hard work for a while. He still has some issues but generally speaking he is a different dog. Yes he has to play by my rules but I have no doubt that he is happy and is happy to live with us as our slave lol! He has his own comfy recliner, free reign of the house (except for the bedroom), good food, lots of toys, mental stimulation, plenty of garden time, daily two hour walks with at the very least half of this off lead, the odd day with his canine buddies at doggy day care. When he greets me in the morning I have no doubt that he is happy and knows that he is loved.


Cats are a law unto themselves, I've never yet met a cat who had "owners"!!! Cats have slaves, human slaves!


I don't think that me having Horace makes me any less vegan than any other non pet owning vegan. I found a snake whilst out walking a month ago. It looked in excellent condition but had probably escaped. I had no way of picking it up as I had Horace with me and couldn't go back until the next day but by then I couldn't find it. I went back a few times but no sign, I assumed it was probably dead. Then the other day, I felt an urge to go back that route and my heart sank as I saw the farmer out finishing the last of the ploughing. We had to stick to the very edge of the field and couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the snake again! At first I wasn't sure if it was the same fella as he was so skinny and poorly looking but in my heart I knew he was. I dashed home to drop off Horace and grab a box and some gloves lol and prayed that he would still be there when I got back. He was so I gently picked him up and took him home. He's being well looked after now by reptile rescue and they assure me that given time he will make a full recovery and that he is very lucky as he wouldn't have survived a few more days. Did I do the wrong thing by taking him back into slavery? Would it have been better to allow him to die as at least that was he would die free? No, I don't think so. In the weeks since I initially found him, he was always there in my mind... If I had of just let him there he would have died in pain from the skin rot that he had, lack of food or exposure. It would have been utterly heartless to have left him there.

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#46 Old 09-28-2014, 10:54 AM
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I couldn't live without my two rats and hamster. <3 My rats (Casper and Sowah) are the sweetest guys and I know they are content and happy because of my months worth of research and large cage and proper diet I feed them. I am sad to say they are from a lab breeder, but I did not get them personally from there. I got them from my class who wasn't treating them properly at the end of the school year, and I love them to bits. I also got my hamster (Theodore) from my friend whose hamster had babies accidentally.

In conclusion I have no problem with having pets as long as you don't purposefully get them from a breeder, or pet store. Also if you make 100% absolutely positively sure that they are from a no-kill local animal shelter. I do not support neutering your pets (unless I suppose you want to have two of the same pets of opposite genders, but I don't see why you would need to!) because there is no way for your companion to give their consent, and I doubt they would if you could speak to them!

These are just my opinions and I hope I do not offend anybody. :-)
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