Maybe I shouldn't read the vegetarian board cuz I keep getting annoyed and angry - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 12-08-2009, 07:50 AM
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EXAMPLE: I've become a vegetarian! Whoop whoop! I never really liked meat anyways! I'm doing this for the animals! But I love eggs and cheese and can't give them up, it's too hard.



Gack. I want to reply to these kinds of posts. Well, so you've stopped eating things you don't like? Big deal. MOST people don't eat what they don't like. I saw one post that said "a fried egg is just too lovely to give up".



Dang, I think this kind of thought process is the exact same as someone who eats meat. Someone recently told me that they respected my decision, but that they just liked meat too much to ever consider giving it up.



I am having a hard time with this. I didn't give up steak because I didn't like it anyways. I liked it a lot.
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#2 Old 12-08-2009, 07:52 AM
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The should in the title should be "should not"
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#3 Old 12-08-2009, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Katoo View Post

I am having a hard time with this. I didn't give up steak because I didn't like it anyways. I liked it a lot.



You'll find a lot of us are in the same boat as you. I miss steak too. I miss cold turkey sandwiches. I miss sushi and grilled tuna. But is it worth it to me? Nope. Being vegan and eating healthy, satisfying options to all of these foods is just too easy. (In time. In time.) Hang in there. You are doing it for the right reasons. Animals rock.

There is no such thing as truth. People who really know what happened aren't talking. And the people who don't have a clue, you can't shut them up. - Tom Waits
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#4 Old 12-08-2009, 08:04 AM
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Everyone finds their own path and has their own way of living. Some turn vegan after being veggie for years or even decades. What works for you and what motivates you may not work for others. Just going vegetarian is quite a struggle for many people. We should try to be more patient and understanding of individuals struggles.



Heck, I'm over the moon if an omni orders a veggie burger instead of the usual meat dinner. Even if that omni goes back to eating meat at least its one less meat based meal.
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#5 Old 12-08-2009, 08:04 AM
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Fixed your title.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#6 Old 12-08-2009, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

Everyone finds their own path and has their own way of living. Some turn vegan after being veggie for years or even decades. What works for you and what motivates you may not work for others. Just going vegetarian is quite a struggle for many people. We should try to be more patient and understanding of individuals struggles.



Heck, I'm over the moon if an omni orders a veggie burger instead of the usual meat dinner. Even if that omni goes back to eating meat at least its one less meat based meal.



I'm sure you are absolutely correct and this is why I don't actually say anything. But I found myself wound up and wanted to vent a little. I figured this was the place to do it.
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#7 Old 12-08-2009, 08:07 AM
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I'm sure you are absolutely correct and this is why I don't actually say anything. But I found myself wound up and wanted to vent a little. I figured this was the place to do it.



Go for it! Vent away!
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#8 Old 12-08-2009, 08:13 AM
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To be honest, when I first started on this path, I was hoping to see a great justification for eating eggs and dairy, because, yeah, it would be easier. But the justification that it is just "too hard" or "fried eggs are too lovely" just doesn't cut it mainly, because the same thing could be used as justification for meat.



I think that if I could only give up one or two things, the egg and dairy industry are two of the WORST and the most worthy of giving up.
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#9 Old 12-08-2009, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Poppy View Post

Fixed your title.

Thank you very much.
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#10 Old 12-08-2009, 08:31 AM
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I'm glad your just venting and don't vent to the people that make you upset.



I think the vegetarians among us do need a haven where they can feel comfortable in their journy. Many many vegetarians become vegans later on. In fact in my years of hanging around these kinds of boards, I think the majority of vegans started out as vegetarians.



For me personally, hanging around vegetarian boards and listening to your examples and learning new things is what tipped the scale for me into full fledged veganism. I needed time. If someone had attacked me from the get go, I never would have hung around and learned about the benefits of veganism.



But vent away. I understand.
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#11 Old 12-08-2009, 08:36 AM
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I think the whole vegan agenda of "everyone needs to stop eating every single animal product right now" is completely unproductive. I can't think of many human rights issues in which everything just completely ended. I think it needs to be a gradual change. Vegetarianism is a gradual change. Heck, having cows out and grazing on actual farms vs the torture in a factory farm is a gradual change. I think all are huge steps to allowing animals to have rights and one day stop being exploited. I see no use in critiquing the diets of others, especially vegetarians, allowing them to think its too hard and the lifestyle too strict. I was a vegetarian once. I was a meat eater once. My boyfriend has a vegetarian day now and often eats vegan. They were all steps. If someone told me if I wanted to care for animals, I would have to stop eating and using every single animal product by tomorrow (when I was omni), I would have felt overwhelmed and tried to further ignore the matter. Its entirely unrealistic.

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#12 Old 12-08-2009, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Katoo View Post

To be honest, when I first started on this path, I was hoping to see a great justification for eating eggs and dairy, because, yeah, it would be easier. But the justification that it is just "too hard" or "fried eggs are too lovely" just doesn't cut it mainly, because the same thing could be used as justification for meat.



I think that if I could only give up one or two things, the egg and dairy industry are two of the WORST and the most worthy of giving up.



A lot of people irl don't know that - think "Happy cows come from California". But I find that many l/o veggies here, once they've been around VB for a while, make sincere efforts to cut way back on eggs and dairy, mainly because they do realize how awful those industries really are.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#13 Old 12-08-2009, 08:45 AM
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I think the whole vegan agenda of "everyone needs to stop eating every single animal product right now" is completely unproductive.



This.



On the whole, I think a lot of vegans get way too caught up in what other people are eating. There are always more ways to improve your own personal impact on animals and the earth, enough projects to keep a vegan satisfied for a lifetime. In my opinion, I think chastising others who are at least attempting to make a difference should be the last thing on a vegan's mind. When it's the first thing on a vegan's mind, that vegan usually comes off to me as bitter and resentful...
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#14 Old 12-08-2009, 08:45 AM
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I know exactly how you feel.



I'll state that there are LOTS of reasons to be "just" vegetarian. I UNDERSTAND those reasons.

For health.

For the environment.

Doesn't want to harm animals and doesn't understand that egg/dairy industries are just as (if nor MORE) cruel.

Doesn't ever claim to have an ethical issue with animals being killed/eaten/used in general, just doesn't want to do it him or herself.



I get all that. I know kids who go vegetarian at 11 or 12 years old, because they don't want to kill animals. Of COURSE they can make the connection that dead flesh is a dead animal. But they're 11. How are they to know the dairy industry is a cruel one? So, sometimes, they spend a long time "just" vegetarian.



But... The people here who claim to be ETHICAL vegetarians blow my mind. I do NOT get the logic behind that. That's my ONE point I don't GET about vegetarianism. THAT one particular brand of it.



To me, and I KNOW this will sound bad, it's like saying "I'm ethically against child abuse." But then saying you're okay with open-handed slaps. And that's okay. I get THAT. If your culture leads you to believe that is okay, then I get that. (And our culture sure leads us to believe all of this is okay. I remember watching "ooo, a farm where they milk cows" shows on TV as a kid. It seemd like those cows had the LIFE. So I can GET that.)



But then... You come to an online forum... With a ton of resources and videos. And people point out to you JUST how damaging to a child, physically and psychologically, open-handed slapping is...



And you continue to do it WHILE continuing to say you are ethically against child abuse!



That... I just don't get. And then sometimes people are saying, "Yeah, it's just.. HOW would I get the kids to listen if I didn't smack them around sometimes? I just... I neeeeeeed it. It works so well! It's more convenient! It makes my life easier!"



In that vein, I don't fully understand being awakened to the realities of the meat, eggs, and dairy industry... Deciding you are ethically against animal cruelty... And then transitioning. I'm all, "buh?"



Same with the child abuse. It'd be like living in a culture that just did it, ALL the time, and then finding out how horrifying it was and deciding "I'm ethically against this!" and then... I dunno... Saying "But, it's a lot to give up. I'll eliminate kicking the children today. Next week, I'll work on stopping punching them. And perhaps a month later, I'll just be down to spanking. Then, maybe I'll be ready to stop altogether!"



I went from omni to vegan overnight, after watching Earthlings... Specifically because my ethics don't "transition." I am either okay with hitting kids (or using animals), or I'm not. And it turns out, I'm NOT. The End.





BUT... TO be clear... I'll say again - it's only the "ethical vegetarians" I do NOT understand. There are plenty of people who go vegetarian for a multitude of reasons and I GET that. I TOTALLY get it. I don't have an issue with it. And there are practical reasons to transition, yes, I get that too. the logic behind making an ETHICAL transition just makes my brain melt it makes so little sense.
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#15 Old 12-08-2009, 08:56 AM
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A lot of people irl don't know that - think "Happy cows come from California".



I'm much older, I remember seeing the Borden "contented cows" ads.



And to the other poster, I'm not trying to be "anti" anything, I'm just trying to understand ovo/lacto. I don't understand it.
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#16 Old 12-08-2009, 09:07 AM
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I've found that the more I have in common with someone, usually the more they annoy the **** out of me. This site is a great example
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#17 Old 12-08-2009, 09:07 AM
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And to the other poster, I'm not trying to be "anti" anything, I'm just trying to understand ovo/lacto. I don't understand it.



Vegetarians just don't accept an "all or nothing" philosophy towards life because a lot of them realize that things are a little more complicated than allowed by the idealistic perspective that veganism entails. Even if a vegan eats no dairy or eggs or honey, they are still probably wearing clothes made by little kids in the third world, driving cars that are destroying the planet with environmental pollutants, buying genetically-modified vegetables shipped from factory farms, and buying nice expensive furniture carved from a burning rainforest.



There are so many ways that people (even vegans) contribute to suffering that they don't even think about, that harping on those like vegetarians who are otherwise doing their best to make a difference but are unwilling to monitor every aspect of their life seems like a waste of negative energy to me.



Why not concentrate on the positive aspects of spreading veganism, by starting a food blog or a tradition in your office where you bring vegan snacks once a week? In-fighting is redundant and just further divides the movement towards compassionate eating.



Katoo, I understand your frustration, but vegetarians get frustrated with vegans as well, because sometimes vegetarians are treated as if they are not even trying if they don't go 100%, and I think that's unfair. Vegetarians still contribute positively to the animal welfare/rights movement a dozen times over what your average omni does.
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#18 Old 12-08-2009, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

This.



On the whole, I think a lot of vegans get way too caught up in what other people are eating. There are always more ways to improve your own personal impact on animals and the earth, enough projects to keep a vegan satisfied for a lifetime. In my opinion, I think chastising others who are at least attempting to make a difference should be the last thing on a vegan's mind. When it's the first thing on a vegan's mind, that vegan usually comes off to me as bitter and resentful...



Well. Hmm. Do you at least get that I'm new to this and finding my way? I'm not being judgemental, I'm not attacking anyone's choices, I'm questioning inconsistencies. I'm certainly not bitter and resentful, though I do resent being called such, and what other people are eating is not the first thing on my mind, but it is what I am researching as I find my own way.



You replied while I was replying to your earlier post. I do see your points, but I don't feel like what I was doing was negative or even in-fighting since I posted it in the "Vegan" board rather than the Vegetarian board. I wasn't challenging anybody to justify their positions, I was venting and trying to understand.
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#19 Old 12-08-2009, 09:16 AM
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Well. Hmm. Do you at least get that I'm new to this and finding my way?



Of course.



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I'm not being judgemental, I'm not attacking anyone's choices, I'm questioning inconsistencies. I'm certainly not bitter and resentful, though I do resent being called such, and what other people are eating is not the first thing on my mind, but it is what I am researching as I find my own way.



I was not talking about you specifically, I was talking about a certain antagonistic worldview some vegans can take when they get overwhelmed by the negativities of living in an omnivorous world which is not always kind to anyone, animals in particular. For what it's worth, I don't think you came off as extremely bitter or resentful at all in this post, but the fact that you get angry over what anonymous vegetarians on the Internet say (to the point that you cannot even listen to them without getting angry) says to me that you might want to step back and concentrate on your own way before criticizing them.



After all, we're all out for a fairly common goal, which is to reduce the consumption of animal products in any way that we can.
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#20 Old 12-08-2009, 09:21 AM
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Of course.







I was not talking about you specifically, I was talking about a certain antagonistic worldview some vegans can take when they get overwhelmed by the negativities of living in an omnivorous world which is not always kind to anyone, animals in particular. For what it's worth, I don't think you came off as extremely bitter or resentful at all in this post, but the fact that you get angry over what anonymous vegetarians on the Internet say (to the point that you cannot even listen to them without getting angry) says to me that you might want to step back and concentrate on your own way before criticizing them.



After all, we're all out for a fairly common goal, which is to reduce the consumption of animal products in any way that we can.





Ha ha. We keep cross-posting over each other. Good discussion, I think.
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#21 Old 12-08-2009, 09:23 AM
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Good discussion, I think.



I totally agree. See? We're bonding over common ground! Veg*n powers, activate!
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#22 Old 12-08-2009, 09:28 AM
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I think you're not so much upset at the existence or conversations or choices of vegetarians as you are that THOSE CHOICES hurt animals. So....think of ways to bring to light how those choices hurt animals, both to egg-, dairy-eating, leather-wearing veggies and omnivores. A blog is a great idea! Good one, Kellye.
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#23 Old 12-08-2009, 09:30 AM
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A blog is a great idea! Good one, Kellye.



Thanks!



Here's mine. The recipes are not entirely vegan but could be veganized very easily: http://www.kitchensinkvegetarian.blogspot.com/



I'm going to put up a new recipe today - Red Pepper and Chile Soup with Onion-Mushroom Paninis.
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#24 Old 12-08-2009, 09:44 AM
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I completely understand you needing to vent, we all do from time to time.



I see it this way....



Veg*ans have enough people "attacking" them that we don't need to be doing it amoung one another. I don't think that everyone is going to go vegan and I think that any step in a positive direction is a wonderful thing.



Do I wish that no animals suffer? absolutely, but I also realize that most people on this planet are not going to be vegan. Also, as mentioned above, it is near impossible to cut out all animal derived (directly or indirectly) products and uses. For example, my vegan meats came to me via truck, which probably had rubber tires. My apartment building probably used wood that had animals blood on it as a sealer, etc, etc, etc.



For me, I was vegetarian for 5 years prior to vegan. Even before that it took me a year to even become a vegetarian. The idea is to be as kind as you possible can. People make change over time, usually faster without being attacked.



That's just my humble opinion though



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May your pain and sorrow be eased.
May you be at peace.

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#25 Old 12-08-2009, 09:46 AM
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Meat wasn't too difficult for me to stop eating, but cheese on the other hand...I do miss cheese.



Yeah, but just because you really like something doesn't mean you should suppress or ignore the moral implications of it. It's morally and intellectually irresponsible, and not something I can respect. Good luck to those of you who can tolerate such fence sitting in others. Me, I rather like Semicharmed's child abuse analogy.
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#26 Old 12-08-2009, 10:00 AM
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BUT... TO be clear... I'll say again - it's only the "ethical vegetarians" I do NOT understand. There are plenty of people who go vegetarian for a multitude of reasons and I GET that. I TOTALLY get it. I don't have an issue with it. And there are practical reasons to transition, yes, I get that too. the logic behind making an ETHICAL transition just makes my brain melt it makes so little sense.



Yeah, same with me.



I usually go on another vegan forum and it is lovely to have a place where lots of people feel the same way as me about animal exploitation but I do like this forum too. It is interesting to me that veganism seems to rub off on the vegetarians on here and that they might make kinder choices with their diet, clothing and beauty products etc. I have noticed that some vegetarians on here seem very defensive and I think that they might be the ones who do eventually try veganism, in fact I have already noticed one person on here like that who transitioned over.



I do however find some of the comments made on here annoying of course and it is frustrating to read someone saying "Oh I love animals so much, how can people eat them" and then the next minute listing her day's food and it's full of eggs and dairy. I have started posting some photos of my food on here lately because I thought that might be a good way to show how easy being vegan can be as people do still think primarily of veganism = food at first.
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#27 Old 12-08-2009, 10:05 AM
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Good luck to those of you who can tolerate such fence sitting in others.



I think tolerance of others is a highly underrated personality trait.



On the whole, vegans challenge me to make stronger efforts to reduce my consumption of animal products (because I do admire their efforts and am trying to transition in that direction as best I can) but I will not emulate contempt for others. To me it's foolish to trade one kind of cruelty for another, and ultimately defeats the purpose.
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#28 Old 12-08-2009, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Katoo View Post

I'm not trying to be "anti" anything, I'm just trying to understand ovo/lacto. I don't understand it.



Katoo, I understand where you're coming from completely. I'm finding that I have huge issues with l/o vegetarians who are aware of the reality and yet just can't give up cheese because their world would explode. There is an entire world of food to explore that is absent of any animal products.

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#29 Old 12-08-2009, 10:15 AM
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I have started posting some photos of my food on here lately because I thought that might be a good way to show how easy being vegan can be as people do still think primarily of veganism = food at first.



Me TOO! I've been taking pictures and posting in food porn lately...



It's actually part of a project for me... My mother is someone who is always trying to live in harmony, ethically and practically, with the universe. When I went vegan, she became very curious. She is eating l/o vegetarian (and sometimes strict vegetarian) at least 2-3 days a week. And for Christmas, my gift to her is going to be a two-week "cookbook" of sorts. It's pictures and recipes of food I made myself, ate, loved and I know she would too. Just to show her how easy and yummy it is to be vegan, with a personal touch. Her gift to me (because she is an awesome mom) is she promised to sit down and watch Earthlings with me so she fully understands my choice, why it is an ETHICAL choice, and why, "But, but, but I LIKE cheese!" is simply NOT a good enough reason for me to keep eating it.





Anyway...



For me, it all comes down to hypocrisy. I don't tolerate it well in ANY aspect of my life. It's not about one veg*n attacking another, it's about one human being angry with hypocrisy.



Someone saying "I want to help the environment and this is as far as I'm willing to take it" is one sound, solid reason for being vegetarian... "I don't like meat" is another. "I am vegetarian for my health" is also perfect logical. Those might not mirror MY choices, but that's 100% okay! REALLY, it is!



However, the hypocrisy of "killing animals for my food is despicable and wrong... but I totally eat eggs and dairy" drives me up a WALL. It's not about them not being "veg*n enough" for me, because as I've said - I'm totally down with OTHER types of vegetarians! It's about hypocrisy, plain and simple.
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#30 Old 12-08-2009, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

Veg*n powers, activate!



Crap... having just been to a Nick Fatel show this weekend your post made me think of his line... Panty powers, ACTIVATE! Now I can't focus on the rest of the thread,

cause I'm too busy laughing over the visual of the big, hairy, bald guy pulled from the audience that ended up wearing a woman's tank top with that phrase on the front.



I shall return with my opinions when my mind refocuses.
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