Are you against ALL animal research? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 11-21-2009, 04:59 AM
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I'm curious about your views of two possible exceptions:



A) Research that involves merely observing animals in their natural habitats without altering their experience or environment in any way;



B) Research with pet dogs that doesn't cause suffering. For example, because of many years of research findings indicating that positive (non-punitive) training is more effective than harsh punitive techniques, most dog trainers now do the latter.
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#2 Old 11-21-2009, 05:38 AM
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Well surely A would just be observing them in the wild? I mean that's a bit difference to putting them in cages and torturing them.
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#3 Old 11-21-2009, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonn1997 View Post

I'm curious about your views of two possible exceptions:



A) Research that involves merely observing animals in their natural habitats without altering their experience or environment in any way;



B) Research with pet dogs that doesn't cause suffering. For example, because of many years of research findings indicating that positive (non-punitive) training is more effective than harsh punitive techniques, most dog trainers now do the latter.



A) depends on what the ethologist is trying to get out of the study. For example I was researching capybaras and I read some studies that assessed how useful they would be to domesticate and use for meat. I am against that research. If an observational study was done that looked at, I don't know, predator-prey relationships with capybaras and anacondas to see how human activity was affecting them, with the aim to see what we could do to reduce our influence on their lives, I don't have a problem with it.



B) That research would have involved using harmful punishment techniques on the dogs and comparing it against positive reinforcement techniques. A woman from uni (I can't really call her a friend any more) is doing her dissertation on methods of castration in newborn male lambs. She's going to be using a method she thinks, and the scientific community already knows, is cruel and painful and comparing it against a less cruel and painful method. I can't support that.
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#4 Old 11-21-2009, 08:36 AM
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A) If your talking about observing them in the wild, and not damaging or even really letting them know you're there, then that's cool.



B) Why do we really to "Research" On dogs anymore, haven't we done enough damage to them?

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#5 Old 11-21-2009, 08:48 AM
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Things I would be in support of:



Observing wildlife a la Jane Goodall.



Population studies through noninvasive methods (ie scat collection).



Clinical trials designed to help pets who are already ill.

slops, gloops, and gruels.
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#6 Old 11-21-2009, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling View Post

A) depends on what the ethologist is trying to get out of the study. For example I was researching capybaras and I read some studies that assessed how useful they would be to domesticate and use for meat. I am against that research. If an observational study was done that looked at, I don't know, predator-prey relationships with capybaras and anacondas to see how human activity was affecting them, with the aim to see what we could do to reduce our influence on their lives, I don't have a problem with it.



B) That research would have involved using harmful punishment techniques on the dogs and comparing it against positive reinforcement techniques. A woman from uni (I can't really call her a friend any more) is doing her dissertation on methods of castration in newborn male lambs. She's going to be using a method she thinks, and the scientific community already knows, is cruel and painful and comparing it against a less cruel and painful method. I can't support that.

So for part "A" it sounds like you're not against the methodology but merely against that particular goal.
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#7 Old 11-21-2009, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
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Things I would be in support of:



Observing wildlife a la Jane Goodall.



Population studies through noninvasive methods (ie scat collection).



Clinical trials designed to help pets who are already ill.



Hmmm. The animal still can't give consent for such a trial and if it's a previously untested drug or procedure there's always the possibility it will do harm and worsen whatever illness the pet already has.
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#8 Old 11-21-2009, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling View Post

A woman from uni (I can't really call her a friend any more) is doing her dissertation on methods of castration in newborn male lambs. She's going to be using a method she thinks, and the scientific community already knows, is cruel and painful and comparing it against a less cruel and painful method. I can't support that.



Grr, that is disgusting.
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#9 Old 11-21-2009, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Bonn1997 View Post

So for part "A" it sounds like you're not against the methodology but merely against that particular goal.



Yes, that's what I said.
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#10 Old 11-21-2009, 01:15 PM
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That's true...it's a dilemma. You're assuming though, that the animal wishes to live and if the trial works the animal might be able to enjoy life again. I'm sure this is a terrible decision for those who must face this.

slops, gloops, and gruels.
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#11 Old 11-21-2009, 02:24 PM
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That's true...it's a dilemma. You're assuming though, that the animal wishes to live.

Doesn't seem so unreasonable to me! We cannot know for sure what any animal thinks but we can make inferences based on observations. If an animal searches for food and water and attempts to escape danger, it is more reasonable to assume that the animal does than that it does not wish to live. There is nothing specific to nonhuman animals in this reasoning. You can know with certainty your own thoughts and whether you want to live but you cannot know with certainty that any other human does.
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#12 Old 11-21-2009, 02:57 PM
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People got along with animals for thousands of years before modern animal testing.

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