Decision: Pescetarianism or Vegetarianism? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 06-08-2008, 06:47 PM
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Hello all



I'm new to the concept of vegetarianism and this message board. I'm a former meat eater, I haven't eaten meat in 3 months now...but I'm split. I'm struggling to decide whether to be a straight up vegetarian or a Pescetarian. This is because I do not see anything unethical about eating seafood, to a large degree (unlike mammalian food products). Is there anything unethical or wrong with seafood? Point of views are welcome.



Thanks



-R1
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#2 Old 06-08-2008, 06:50 PM
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Flesh is flesh.



A lot of commercial fishing hurts all types of sea-dwelling animals, including sea-dwelling mammalians.
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#3 Old 06-08-2008, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Route 1 View Post

Hello all



I'm new to the concept of vegetarianism and this message board. I'm a former meat eater, I haven't eaten meat in 3 months now...but I'm split. I'm struggling to decide whether to be a straight up vegetarian or a Pescetarian. This is because I do not see anything unethical about eating seafood, to a large degree (unlike mammalian food products). Is there anything unethical or wrong with seafood? Point of views are welcome.



Thanks



-R1



What's the difference between fish and mammals? They all feel pain, they are all sentient to some point, they are all alive and don't deserve to be unnecessarily killed.
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#4 Old 06-08-2008, 07:57 PM
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You should research the environmental effects of the fishing industries.



Vegetarianism is the way to go.
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#5 Old 06-08-2008, 09:03 PM
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Depends, why are you making this diet change in the first place?
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#6 Old 06-08-2008, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Route 1 View Post

Hello all



Is there anything unethical or wrong with seafood? Point of views are welcome.



Thanks



-R1



Yes. Needlessly slaughtering a living creature is unethical and wrong.



You are aware, I trust, that this is a board for vegetarians and vegans, right?
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#7 Old 06-08-2008, 09:10 PM
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I struggled with this when I first turned vegetarian. Animals considered seafood usually don't nurture their young, so that stuck to me for a while. But I decided against seafood and After snooping around a bit I was very glad to have stopped before I saw what I researched.
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#8 Old 06-08-2008, 09:13 PM
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What about all the 'trash' animals that are caught in the nets? (basically.. killed for nothing).



Flesh is flesh.. Fish are most definitely: animals with feelings.
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#9 Old 06-08-2008, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Libera Mentis View Post

Depends, why are you making this diet change in the first place?



I don't agree with how the meat industry practices it's trade, eating meat on a regular basis makes you prone to more diseases, meat raising is a terrible waste of natural resource, vegetarian diets lead to a healthier lifestyle. Those are the major ones.





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Yes. Needlessly slaughtering a living creature is unethical and wrong.



You are aware, I trust, that this is a board for vegetarians and vegans, right?

Is talking about things like Pescetarianism taboo here?





Aren't plants "alive" too, though? I'm not trolling, this question has always crossed my mind. Wasn't there research where plants reacted to "pain"?
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#10 Old 06-08-2008, 11:01 PM
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I don't agree with how the meat industry practices it's trade, eating meat on a regular basis makes you prone to more diseases, meat raising is a terrible waste of natural resource, vegetarian diets lead to a healthier lifestyle. Those are the major ones.







Is talking about things like Pescetarianism taboo here?





Aren't plants "alive" too, though? I'm not trolling, this question has always crossed my mind. Wasn't there research where plants reacted to "pain"?



Plants don't have a brain or a central nervous system.
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#11 Old 06-08-2008, 11:03 PM
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eating sea-fish gets you a really decent rda of mercury and all the other grossness absorbed from floating around in the waters out there- where we pump our waste and effluent. the environment is ravaged by drag nets and boat fuel. farmed fish isn't exactly healthy either- dyes, antibiotics, toxins in the food, disease, etc. fish farming is a horrible waste of resources too, so is all the fuel used by fishing boats and the pollution it causes.



eta: veggieboards is for people who are vegetarian, or seriously considering it. fish isn't vegetarian. promoting the eating of fishes would therefore be against the rules. talking about giving it up would probably be ok.



i think i have to go with a least harm scenario. i can't be 100% sure that plants aren't in pain when i yank them out of the ground and eat them. but i can see fishes struggling to get away, gasping for breath, etc. i know they have a nervous system with pain receptors, and a brain. i can't be sure brain damaged babies wouldn't know or feel pain if i ate them either, but i kinda have to assume that they might, from what i know, so i don't eat them either. if you're sincerely concerned about plants you could always work towards becoming a fruitarian.
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#12 Old 06-08-2008, 11:04 PM
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Plants don't have a brain or a central nervous system.

I know that. I forgot where I read the article, but they reacted in a different way than we would, since they lack a central nervous systems.



meh, we're getting off topic.
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#13 Old 06-08-2008, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Route 1 View Post

I don't agree with how the meat industry practices it's trade, eating meat on a regular basis makes you prone to more diseases, meat raising is a terrible waste of natural resource, vegetarian diets lead to a healthier lifestyle. Those are the major ones.







Is talking about things like Pescetarianism taboo here?





Aren't plants "alive" too, though? I'm not trolling, this question has always crossed my mind. Wasn't there research where plants reacted to "pain"?



Fish is meat! All the reasons you don't want to eat red meat and poultry apply to seafood.



Plants are alive but they do not have a central nervous system nor a developed brain. Even if they were alive like fish are, there would be less damage by eating only plants because animals consume so much more of them than humans.
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#14 Old 06-08-2008, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Route 1 View Post








Is talking about things like Pescetarianism taboo here?





Aren't plants "alive" too, though? I'm not trolling, this question has always crossed my mind. Wasn't there research where plants reacted to "pain"?



This is a board for vegetarians and vegans.



Pescetarianism is a dietary option, but it's not one that we encourage or allow on this board. Veggieboards is a safe haven for those of us who do not consume dead animals. You agreed to those terms when you signed up to the board.



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#15 Old 06-08-2008, 11:36 PM
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I know that. I forgot where I read the article, but they reacted in a different way than we would, since they lack a central nervous systems.



meh, we're getting off topic.



Oh, so you read somewhere (you forgot where) that plants "react" to stimuli. All living things react to stimuli, that does not mean that they can feel pain, nor does it mean they are sentient.
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#16 Old 06-08-2008, 11:58 PM
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This is a board for vegetarians and vegans.



Pescetarianism is a dietary option, but it's not one that we encourage or allow on this board. Veggieboards is a safe haven for those of us who do not consume dead animals. You agreed to those terms when you signed up to the board.




Ah, ok. I'll remember that. I guess I'm off to bad start then?
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#17 Old 06-09-2008, 12:35 AM
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Ah, ok. I'll remember that. I guess I'm off to bad start then?



It's up to you to make your own decisions. I hope, honestly, that you will decide innocent lives are worth sparing and to join us fully as a vegetarian or a vegan.



Your questions are valid ones, but you can't expect to garner support for eating animals from vegetarians and vegans.



Best wishes to you, and I hope you stick around and make the compassionate choice.
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#18 Old 06-09-2008, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Route 1 View Post

I don't agree with how the meat industry practices it's trade, eating meat on a regular basis makes you prone to more diseases, meat raising is a terrible waste of natural resource, vegetarian diets lead to a healthier lifestyle. Those are the major ones.



1) how the meat industry practices it's trade

The caught fish industry harms an outrageous amounts of non-edible sea creatures, including those with brains and pain receptors that may even ascend ours, like dolphins. The farmed fish industry is incredibly unethical. It puts its fish through disease ridden tanks that force them to squeeze through grates that practically descale them, and starve them before leaving them out on ice to die to get rid of any waste.



2) eating meat on a regular basis makes you prone to more diseases

Mercury.



3) meat raising is a terrible waste of natural resource

Fish farming / raising takes a far, far, far greater toll on the environment than vegetables ever could or will.



4) vegetarian diets lead to a healthier lifestyle

You're right, cause we avoid things like mercury.



Give cold turkey a try, once you forget what fish tastes like, it's not hard to give it up. Trust me, I worked at Red Lobster just for the discount for awhile.
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#19 Old 06-09-2008, 04:39 AM
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If you can't find it in yourself to care for beings smaller than yourself, think about this. When fishing for shrimp, nets are used, and oftentimes, shrimp are not the only animals that are caught. Many more sea turtles die every year than dolphins do in fishing nets. In fact, six of the world's seven species of sea turtles are now listed as endangered.



http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et0296/et0296s2.html



About 850 whales, dolphins and porpoises die every day due to fishing with nets.



Worldwide, fishermen throw away 25% of their catch



http://see-the-sea.org/topics/commerce/bycatch.htm



"During long-line fishing, lines up to 80 miles long with over 30,000 baited hooks are set on lines behind the fishing vessel. Seabirds see the bait near the surface as lines are deployed. The birds dive on the bait, becoming hooked or stealing the bait. Tens of thousands are hooked and die each year ... In each of the last 3 years an estimated 2,000 Laysan Albatross and 2,000 Black-footed Albatross were killed in the waters around Hawaii. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and National Marine Fisheries Service estimate that in the Bering Sea/Gulf of Alaska area 10,000 birds are killed annually. Short- tailed Albatross, an endangered species, are caught in the waters off Alaska and have been seen around Hawaii. In the southern oceans, it is estimated that over 40,000 albatross of several species are killed annually. Populations of Wandering Albatross, a species of special concern, are estimated to be declining by 10% annually owing to longline fishing. Other birds killed include petrels, skuas, gulls, kittiwakes, fulmars, shearwaters, and penguins."



http://www.nmnh.si.edu/BIRDNET/OC/issues/OCBv1n4.html



"[The] Gulf of Mexico Commercial marine fisheries in the U.S. alone toss away up to 20 billion pounds of by-catch each year--twice the commercial and recreational catch combined."



http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/OCEAN_P...l_bycatch.html



Sounds like a big waste to me. Such needless killing...
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#20 Old 06-09-2008, 05:23 AM
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Nice post Bells



http://www.fishinghurts.com/ is as good enough a place to start as any when looking at the actual targeted lives. We now know beyond a doubt that fish suffer and feel pain, their death is arguably one of the most torturous out of all the pain humans inflict on their fellow animals.



It isn't scientifically proven that plants feel pain, the ruling thinking in fact rejects this, but even if it were so the fact is that humans cannot survive without plants. We can survive, thrive in fact, without consuming any animal products. And these animal products use up more plants than us eating them directly! So veg*nism is truly the path of least suffering.



Fish and other sea life are often looked down on compared to other animals like mammals because it is harder for humans to empathise with them. Fish do not show expression on their faces that we use to recognise feelings, and we cannot see personality in their eyes. This is our flaw and we shouldn't use the fact that we can't see the suffering that we know to be there to excuse our treatment of these living creatures. Fish and others are intelligent sentient beings, who suffer.



The question is not, Can they reason?, nor Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? - Jeremy Bentham
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#21 Old 06-09-2008, 05:54 AM
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I honestly think that eating fish, shellfish and other marine life is worse than eating cows, pigs or chickens. While I am not condoning the killing of any living being I believe that the "by-catch" and the completely pointless deaths of the "non-food" marine animals is even worse than the species specific killing that takes place on land. The by-catch often dies a slower and more painful death than animals in slaughterhoues (as hard as that is to imagine) and their deaths are even more pointless as many of them are just dumped back into the water.



If one is vegetarian because they care about other living beings then eating marine life has to be out of the question. To choose otherwise makes no sense.

I am the user formerly known as MrsKey
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#22 Old 06-09-2008, 06:18 AM
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I agree with most of the other posts here. Maybe you should do some more research about fishing and maybe watch some videos of it. To me, fishing is really cruel. The fact that fishing is even considered a sport is ridiculous.

Fish still feel pain. Sure they can’t scream or squeak like a lot of other animals can, but they still feel it.

Putting another animal in front of another and still considering yourself an animal lover is sounds pretty stupid, don’t you think?

If you do choose to switch to a vegetarian way of life, you’ll get a lot of support here.
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#23 Old 06-09-2008, 09:34 AM
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Small scale fishing is probably less impactful on one's health, the environment, & animal suffering than big scale dairy. *shrug*

Do what you can, and always strive for more. The journey of life is made of many small steps.
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#24 Old 06-09-2008, 11:30 AM
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Ah, ok. I'll remember that. I guess I'm off to bad start then?



Nah, you're good. It seems like you are asking the right questions; just be prepared for sometimes passionate answers is all.



I agree that fish are living, breathing, reproducing, sentient beings who should not be eaten. Plus, they are full of bad chemicals, which seriously sucks for them but not for you if you don't eat them.



As far as plants feeling pain, there has yet to be any scientifically valid research showing that they do. Some that you may read are hoaxes, others simply misguided misunderstandings of botanic principles. For instance, some non-scientists who see a plant "move" toward the sunlight anthropomorphically reason that it must be seeking the light. In fact, the light destroys certain growth hormones in the plant stem, slowing cell growth more on the light side than the shaded side, which causes the torsioning action that makes a flower seem to "seek" the sun.



Plants don't "mind" if you eat them. Really.
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#25 Old 06-09-2008, 03:45 PM
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Here is a great Mock Tuna Salad recipe that cures my seafood cravings:



https://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...ock+tuna+salad

http://bringingyouohm.wordpress.com/

Lokah Samastah Sukhino Bhavanto

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May the whole world be joyous'
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#26 Old 06-09-2008, 03:56 PM
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Hi, Route 1. Welcome! I was pescetarian for a few years, but I had an aquarium, and eventually realized I cared about fish too much to eat them.



If you choose to, you can still eat fish- although posting about this would be against this site's policy. I'll admit there is some evidence to indicate that fish may not be sentient to the same degree that warm-blooded animals are, but after observing fish up close... I have to assume they can feel pleasure and pain, and I have to give them the benefit of the doubt. When I went from pescetarian to vegetarian, I wasn't aware of the by-catch issues others have mentioned in this thread.



("Finding Nemo" was on this past weekend. That, and this thread, inspired me to change my avatar. I know it's pure fantasy, but it was a lot of fun... that 12-step support group with the sharks was priceless.)

Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
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#27 Old 06-09-2008, 03:56 PM
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Ah, ok. I'll remember that. I guess I'm off to bad start then?



I don't think you were off to a bad start. You essentially were asking us why we don't eat fish. A very reasonable question to ask a bunch of vegans and vegetarians. Where you went wrong is with the "don't plants feel pain" foolishness because that veers aways from giving information to us getting defensive.
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#28 Old 06-09-2008, 03:58 PM
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("Finding Nemo" was on this past weekend. That, and this thread, inspired me to change my avatar. I know it's pure fantasy, but it was a lot of fun... that 12-step support group with the sharks was priceless.)



Fish are friends not food!
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#29 Old 06-09-2008, 04:28 PM
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Watch Earthlings...all the way through. It will make you cry. Sorry if someone's already suggested this; I haven't read through the entire thread.
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#30 Old 06-09-2008, 04:55 PM
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Watch Earthlings...all the way through. It will make you cry. Sorry if someone's already suggested this; I haven't read through the entire thread.



Here is a link to it on youtube, although you are supposed to buy it if you want to watch it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GhxKnys7Ryw
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