I was eagerly looking forward to become a vegetarian until I heard this - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 09-19-2015, 07:59 AM
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I was a vegetarian (dairy and eggs) for almost 16 years before going vegan. You can't tell me all those years, even though I was consuming dairy and eggs, counted for naught when it came to making an impact. When I went vegan, I was ready to do it for the rest of my life, not a couple months or years before falling back into an omni diet like so many people who push themselves too hard. IMO, better to do what you can at the time (whatever the reason may be) and work towards growing and taking bigger steps when your ready than to do absolutely nothing at all. There is NOTHING wrong with "just" being a vegetarian. You would STILL be making a huge impact! Especially if vegetarianism is what you feel you can personally maintain long term Better a vegetarian for life than a vegan for a month and back to meat.
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#62 Old 09-19-2015, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Kiwibird08 View Post
I was a vegetarian (dairy and eggs) for almost 16 years before going vegan. You can't tell me all those years, even though I was consuming dairy and eggs, counted for naught when it came to making an impact. When I went vegan, I was ready to do it for the rest of my life, not a couple months or years before falling back into an omni diet like so many people who push themselves too hard. IMO, better to do what you can at the time (whatever the reason may be) and work towards growing and taking bigger steps when your ready than to do absolutely nothing at all. There is NOTHING wrong with "just" being a vegetarian. You would STILL be making a huge impact! Especially if vegetarianism is what you feel you can personally maintain long term Better a vegetarian for life than a vegan for a month and back to meat.
This!
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#63 Old 09-20-2015, 05:55 AM
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There is NOTHING wrong with "just" being a vegetarian.
*shifts uncomfortably*

*clears throat*

*starts to say something*

*leaves thread*
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#64 Old 09-20-2015, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Dogma View Post
*shifts uncomfortably*

*clears throat*

*starts to say something*

*leaves thread*
Would you prefer the OP or people in the same position who may be reading this thread do nothing at all and go back to consuming meat too because the "level 99" vegans make them feel "just" being ovo/lacto vegetarian isn't enough? Because that is what happens when most new vegetarians are met with that attitude from vegans, not the other way around where they go vegan instead.

Not everyone will be able to go vegan overnight. Get over it and encourage people to do what the CAN maintain long term. Every little bit helps, and hopefully in the future vegetarians will feel confident enough to go fully vegan. I'll encourage people to take any step in the right direction they feel they can even if thats simply reducing consumption. Vegetarianism is a HUGE step forward for most people and I for one commend the OP and all vegetarians for making this decision for themselves and the animals
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#65 Old 09-20-2015, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post
Ovo vegetarianism is a million times better than meat eating.
I'm curious why you think this. Even if we're promoting utilitarianism, which I am certainly not, I don't think there's any moral significance between a glass of milk and a hamburger. If we're promoting incremental growth for individuals, why is the default to give up flesh first and worry about the secretions later or not at all? As the most extreme abolitionist vegan I know, I can honestly tell you that cutting out eggs, dairy, and all seafood while continuing to eat a small amount of high quality lean meat along with lots of vegetables and complex grains is probably going to yield a better result from a utilitarian perspective and from a human health perspective than following the typical pattern of replacing meat with additional cheese and egg products. Just because there's an extra step or two involved in the process of harvesting of milk and eggs from farm animals and the death of those animals doesn't mean that dairy and eggs somehow don't equate to death. Atrocity delayed is not atrocity prevented. It's better to encourage people to reduce their overall contribution to any and all atrocities, hopefully on a path to eliminating them entirely, than to try to rank atrocities in order of preference. During the four years before I went completely vegan, I ate some dairy product at almost every meal. I would have done animals and myself much better if I'd been vegan five days a week and ate limited meat without eggs or milk on the other two days. I'm not suggesting this as an alternative to veganism. Again, I'm not a utilitarian. But if that were the goal, the practical impact of various choices should be investigated and not assumed.
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#66 Old 09-20-2015, 12:20 PM
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Disclaimer: I have NOT read this entire thread. I just want to say that doing SOMETHING is better than doing NOTHING. So if you're vegetarian, and still eating eggs and/or other dairy, it's better than being a meat eater. That's only my opinion, of course.
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#67 Old 09-20-2015, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DTASFAB View Post
I'm curious why you think this. Even if we're promoting utilitarianism, which I am certainly not, I don't think there's any moral significance between a glass of milk and a hamburger. If we're promoting incremental growth for individuals, why is the default to give up flesh first and worry about the secretions later or not at all? As the most extreme abolitionist vegan I know, I can honestly tell you that cutting out eggs, dairy, and all seafood while continuing to eat a small amount of high quality lean meat along with lots of vegetables and complex grains is probably going to yield a better result from a utilitarian perspective and from a human health perspective than following the typical pattern of replacing meat with additional cheese and egg products. Just because there's an extra step or two involved in the process of harvesting of milk and eggs from farm animals and the death of those animals doesn't mean that dairy and eggs somehow don't equate to death. Atrocity delayed is not atrocity prevented. It's better to encourage people to reduce their overall contribution to any and all atrocities, hopefully on a path to eliminating them entirely, than to try to rank atrocities in order of preference. During the four years before I went completely vegan, I ate some dairy product at almost every meal. I would have done animals and myself much better if I'd been vegan five days a week and ate limited meat without eggs or milk on the other two days. I'm not suggesting this as an alternative to veganism. Again, I'm not a utilitarian. But if that were the goal, the practical impact of various choices should be investigated and not assumed.
I would have to agree. I toured 7 local farms this weekend in a county wide event here in KY. One was a full blown dairy farm, and two others were free range, grass fed (still some soy/corn mix fed in winter months or if pastures aren't doing so well) beef farms.

The cows at the beef farms had it pretty good until it was their time to be forced into the death trailer and hauled off to be killed and butchered - which is the same end fate of EVERY dairy animal as well. The difference is that the dairy animals are subject to daily harassment and confinement to milk, and even worse what happens to the male calves (veal camps). At the beef farms the baby calves are at least allowed to remain with mom and the herd. At the dairy farm the calf was taken IMMEDIATELY to be bottle fed the colostrum and goes straight to the isolated "dog house" for a few days (think igloo style dog house with a 4 ft. rope tied to the top). This is within sight and about 50 ft. away from where the mother cows are kept during the day for milking. Only then to be shipped out for a quick, confined, fattening up and slaughter if a male, or to a sister farm to be raised until adult that will produce milk then brought back to the dairy to replace the "non producing" adult cows that will be sent to slaughter since they are spent, and worthless to the farmer.

Pretty much same story with the chickens, chicks, and egg production.

Point is, if you eat or use an animal product, innocent creatures are getting forced to do things they don't want to do, and then they are killed, cut up, ground up, and god knows what else to be used in all kinds of products and feeds.

Contributing LESS by cutting back on everything animal related is a good thing, but I cannot agree with the statement that "there is nothing wrong with being just a vegetarian"

Vegan is the best choice by far though, and like the post I quoted above, and after seeing things firsthand and also researching the truth behind the scenes, I would agree that eating a small amount of local, small farm raised, free range, organic meat is the best option if you just must have some animal product in your diet.

Now, if you have your own cow and your own chickens and what not, then maybe some milk and eggs can be achieved in a decent manner, but that is probably a highly unlikely situation for most of us to be in...
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#68 Old 09-21-2015, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DTASFAB View Post
I'm curious why you think this. Even if we're promoting utilitarianism, which I am certainly not, I don't think there's any moral significance between a glass of milk and a hamburger. If we're promoting incremental growth for individuals, why is the default to give up flesh first and worry about the secretions later or not at all? As the most extreme abolitionist vegan I know, I can honestly tell you that cutting out eggs, dairy, and all seafood while continuing to eat a small amount of high quality lean meat along with lots of vegetables and complex grains is probably going to yield a better result from a utilitarian perspective and from a human health perspective than following the typical pattern of replacing meat with additional cheese and egg products. Just because there's an extra step or two involved in the process of harvesting of milk and eggs from farm animals and the death of those animals doesn't mean that dairy and eggs somehow don't equate to death. Atrocity delayed is not atrocity prevented. It's better to encourage people to reduce their overall contribution to any and all atrocities, hopefully on a path to eliminating them entirely, than to try to rank atrocities in order of preference. During the four years before I went completely vegan, I ate some dairy product at almost every meal. I would have done animals and myself much better if I'd been vegan five days a week and ate limited meat without eggs or milk on the other two days. I'm not suggesting this as an alternative to veganism. Again, I'm not a utilitarian. But if that were the goal, the practical impact of various choices should be investigated and not assumed.
1. I said ovo vegetarian, not lacto/ovo

2. The biggest step is giving up eating animals directly, imo. I don't care about which vegan belief "camp" people are in. I applaud them for giving up animal flesh.
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#69 Old 09-21-2015, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post
1. I said ovo vegetarian, not lacto/ovo

2. The biggest step is giving up eating animals directly, imo. I don't care about which vegan belief "camp" people are in. I applaud them for giving up animal flesh.
I think I can understand your point of view though - set aside any potential previous suffering, etc. and just the IDEA of eating flesh is alone a more sinister IDEA than consuming something an animal produces and lives on to another day.

I can dig it. But from what I have gathered, the facts behind the industries make it sickening for me to support any faction of the meat, dairy or egg producers that I would potentially buy from.

I'm only 3 months or so in on all of this but things are so clear to me through research that it was no problem to dive right in and stay on track, thank God.
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#70 Old 11-06-2015, 01:13 AM
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Um, what? Every little bit helps. While egg production can still be cruel, you're still harming less animals than eating flesh. Also, if you make sure you get free range organic (and they must be organic, to legally assure this is true) then the chickens really are getting treated as humanely as possible, without you raising your own or giving up eggs completely.

Furthermore you should look into the health and environmental impact of giving up flesh, if you need more "motivation" than animal rights.
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#71 Old 11-06-2015, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by DTASFAB View Post
I'm curious why you think this. Even if we're promoting utilitarianism, which I am certainly not, I don't think there's any moral significance between a glass of milk and a hamburger. If we're promoting incremental growth for individuals, why is the default to give up flesh first and worry about the secretions later or not at all? As the most extreme abolitionist vegan I know, I can honestly tell you that cutting out eggs, dairy, and all seafood while continuing to eat a small amount of high quality lean meat along with lots of vegetables and complex grains is probably going to yield a better result from a utilitarian perspective and from a human health perspective than following the typical pattern of replacing meat with additional cheese and egg products. Just because there's an extra step or two involved in the process of harvesting of milk and eggs from farm animals and the death of those animals doesn't mean that dairy and eggs somehow don't equate to death. Atrocity delayed is not atrocity prevented. It's better to encourage people to reduce their overall contribution to any and all atrocities, hopefully on a path to eliminating them entirely, than to try to rank atrocities in order of preference. During the four years before I went completely vegan, I ate some dairy product at almost every meal. I would have done animals and myself much better if I'd been vegan five days a week and ate limited meat without eggs or milk on the other two days. I'm not suggesting this as an alternative to veganism. Again, I'm not a utilitarian. But if that were the goal, the practical impact of various choices should be investigated and not assumed.
Why do you assert eating meat is preferable to eggs or dairy? Even lacto-ovo vegetarians enjoy better health and longer life on average, according to the studies I've seen. Many "blue zones" also contain lacto or lacto-ovo vegetarians, rather than meat eaters, though vegans also fall within the numbers.
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#72 Old 11-06-2015, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverCat View Post
Is it OK to increase the Egg and Milk consumption to replace the protein lost by not eating meat (at least temporarily)?

I don't think it's a great idea to over do dairy. If you are worried about protein, I think you would be better served by learning to enjoy different kinds of beans, lentils, peas, and tofu or seitan. You can also snack on nuts or add nuts and nut butters to other foods (such as cereal, toast, noodles, or salad). Quinoa is a complete protein, and if you can afford it, mock meats and dairy-substitute products make a good addition.

If you eat excess dairy I honestly think you're asking for bloating and skin issues, as well as having to be concerned about cholesterol.

I think ideally you'd not eat more dairy than before, though you now eat it without meat on your sandwich, pizza, or quesadilla. If anything you might eat a few more eggs.
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#73 Old 11-06-2015, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Gita View Post
I have potato and onion sandwiches all the time. Tastes a bit like cheese sandwiches. Especially sriracha on it. Chick peas mash sandwiches are also great.
Yes one of my favorite sandwiches has chickpeas and avacado. I think potatoes are also great on a soft taco, or in a skillet with veggies, potato and mushrooms would make up a complete protein themselves, I think.
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