Why I might not become Vegetarian - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 05-10-2013, 08:30 AM
 
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Wish I could learn how to spell you're properly instead of your.

Must be lack of protein, iron, calcium etc
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#62 Old 05-10-2013, 08:58 AM
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I don't have the problem with veganism in general that I have with vegan abolitionism in particular. If you communicate with your guru Francione at all, maybe you could convey to him the problem that some of us vegetarians have with your group's attempts to be associated in the public mind with the nineteenth century anti-slavery Abolition movement. The anti-slavery movement was made up not just of sympathetic white people, but also of former slaves and descendants of slaves, many of whom held positions of high leadership within the movement. Show me where cows and chickens are participants and co-leaders in your movement, and I will withdraw one of my objections to your group's attempt to cloak itself in the valor and hazard that was life for those Abolitionists.

 

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I believe the only thing that will make a change is for veganism to no longer be considered abnormal or extreme which it clearly is by omni's and vegetarians alike.

 

Well, you've stated a heady problem. But as I see it, you pretty much are that problem. Your challenge is to propagate an outlier viewpoint, an extremely unpopular minority sliver viewpoint, by making it sound appealing, reasonable, the right thing to do. And what a challenge that is! Abolitionists are a fraction of veganism, which is a fraction of vegetarianism, which is a fraction of the population at large. Plus there are three times as many former vegans as there are practicing ones. So go ahead, try to make it sound reasonable. I'm not saying it can't be done, in fact I see it done regularly by members of VB. But you yourself need different words, different arguments, a different tone. And you need to be standing on a different soapbox, not the vegetarian discussion subforum of Veggieboards. Vegans are welcome here (we like vegans very much), but not welcome to use this subforum to try and convert vegetarians to veganism.

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#63 Old 05-10-2013, 09:19 AM
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MOD POST- Since the OP is not yet fully vegetarian, I'm moving this thread to the Transitioning To Vegetarian forum.


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#64 Old 05-10-2013, 09:34 AM
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Thanks Ellie.
I will do what I do and if some people don't approve, too bad.
I totally fail to see how anyone eating less meat, even if it were only once a week, is hindering anything. In reality it cuts down on the demand for meat...surely the aim of vegetarianism?

Welcome. 

 

I just wanted to point out that you keep talking about vegetarians or the aims of vegetarianism as all being alike across the board, which is not true. There's not a typical vegetarian or typical vegan, because people are all individuals. My reasons and goals around not eating animals are different from others and so on. 

 

You have to make decisions about what to eat and not eat and how come, on your own. 

 

I don't think someone who cuts back on meat is hindering anything, but I also don't think that person is a vegetarian. There is a big difference between eating less meat and eating no meat. 

 

Re community rules: 

I'm glad you're considering transitioning to vegetarian, and I'm glad you've cut back on meat. I will say that our community rules note that you do need to be a vegetarian OR actively trying to go fully vegetarian, in order to remain a member. That means no meat, including fish. A vegetarian doesn't cut back on meat - they actually do stop eating it (usually after a transition period). 

 

Maybe think about what you want to do, decide if you are going to cut out meat, and decide if VeggieBoards is the right place for you to get support to do that. We do support people who are trying to go veg because we know there are challenges. But, this may not be the best forum for you if you're only interested in cutting back on meat. 

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#65 Old 05-10-2013, 10:00 AM
 
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I don't have the problem with veganism in general that I have with vegan abolitionism in particular. If you communicate with your guru Francione at all, maybe you could convey to him the problem that some of us vegetarians have with your group's attempts to be associated in the public mind with the nineteenth century anti-slavery Abolition movement. The anti-slavery movement was made up not just of sympathetic white people, but also of former slaves and descendants of slaves, many of whom held positions of high leadership within the movement. Show me where cows and chickens are participants and co-leaders in your movement, and I will withdraw one of my objections to your group's attempt to cloak itself in the valor and hazard that was life for those Abolitionists.

 

 

Well, you've stated a heady problem. But as I see it, you pretty much are that problem. Your challenge is to propagate an outlier viewpoint, an extremely unpopular minority sliver viewpoint, by making it sound appealing, reasonable, the right thing to do. And what a challenge that is! Abolitionists are a fraction of veganism, which is a fraction of vegetarianism, which is a fraction of the population at large. Plus there are three times as many former vegans as there are practicing ones. So go ahead, try to make it sound reasonable. I'm not saying it can't be done, in fact I see it done regularly by members of VB. But you yourself need different words, different arguments, a different tone. And you need to be standing on a different soapbox, not the vegetarian discussion subforum of Veggieboards. Vegans are welcome here (we like vegans very much), but not welcome to use this subforum to try and convert vegetarians to veganism.

 

Sorry but your post is ridiculous.  I honestly don't think you 'get it' if you think we can't be abolitionists because the cows and chickens aren't leaders within the movement, the example of slavery gets used because it was a fairly recent social change where, like non-human animals, blacks were considered a different species so it's a very relevant comparison to make.  People also said slavery would never end and hey look what happened.  The comparison is not between animal rights abolitionists and slavery abolitionists but the fact that sentient beings were taken advantage of because they were considered different.

 

Valour and hazard?  You say that like I have my beliefs because I want a pat on the back or something.  There is no personal gain from holding the beliefs I have I do it unequivocally for the animals.

 

As for the right thing to do we say it because we believe IT IS the right thing to do, the only way you cannot directly contribute to animal cruelty is by cutting out ALL animal products end of story.  There is simply no other option.  If you understand that as a vegetarian then you must and should go vegan, if you don't understand it then that's why people like me and those who think the same enjoy discussing it with people.  However, I do not think I am any better than a vegetarian, an omni or the strange guy round the corner who eats chalk! 

 

I'm confused about your comments on 'making something seem reasonable' if you are meaning veganism then I really don't understand.  Going vegan is not about it 'appealing' to you or 'reasonable' it is about showing compassion and understanding fully that treating sentient beings as commodities is morally wrong.  In fact a vegan lifestyle isn't about humans at all.  Judging from your tirade you obviously don't agree with this sentiment.  However, when I discuss the subject with people that are willing to listen to a side they have never heard before - animals matter morally, I get very positive feedback (ha can I call it that?), people say they have never thought of it like that etc and people change because of it.

 

I didn't come here to convert anyone, I came here to discuss with someone why I (ME NOT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE) believe that it is morally wrong to use any animal products like the thread starter asked.  It is a forum which is open to discussion, and I'm sure the person who started the thread did not have a problem with me putting my views across and we have both shared each sides of our beliefs. 

 

By the way you sound scared that vegans are going to take over the world or something.  Plus i'm super glad you don't have a 'problem' with veganism because if you did I would jump in the car and drive to Burger King right now. 

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#66 Old 05-10-2013, 11:05 AM
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By the way you sound scared that vegans are going to take over the world or something.  

 

Just to reassure you Joan that as a vegan, I can't see me trying to take over the world this year. Can't speak for the next year or two though. I'll have to check my 5 year diary. thumbsup.gif 

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#67 Old 05-10-2013, 11:22 AM
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Just to reassure you Joan that as a vegan, I can't see me trying to take over the world this year. Can't speak for the next year or two though. I'll have to check my 5 year diary. thumbsup.gif 


A multi-step process, no doubt. It will take you at least three years to pull off. Longer, if you have help. tongue3.gif

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#68 Old 05-10-2013, 11:25 AM
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A multi-step process, no doubt. It will take you at least three years to pull off. Longer, if you have help. tongue3.gif

 

Ya think?

 

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#69 Old 05-10-2013, 11:32 AM
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I think you have a sound argument. Many people who start vegetarian or vegan eating habits are all gung-ho at first, and then come against the wall of social eating, family gatherings, or the ubiquitous slaughter house industry by-products. Look, animal parts are used in cars, rubber tires, they are used in roads and runways-- They are used in objects that a lot of us would never guess. We are not super human. The slaughter house industry is always looking for new byproducts. And what about medical uses? Mares Urine? The colostrum of dairy hiefers that might be given to a pre-mature human infant to save his life? What about the people who have been saved because tests were done on puppies or monkeys or cats?

 

But the point is to try. You cannot avoid things just because you feel you will not be "perfect." And I will wager not everyone who is a vegetarian  or vegan is perfect either.

 

You're just telling yourself the truth because you know yourself better than any one else does.

 

But I hope that you realize that perfectionism will stop you from doing a lot of things you might want to do because you feel you will not be 100%

 

Get rid of that fear and you will lead a happier life.

 

By the way, I am a "health" vegetarian

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#70 Old 05-10-2013, 11:34 AM
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Ya think?

 

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#71 Old 05-10-2013, 12:52 PM
 
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Ok because we don't think something will ever happen we wont bother trying.  How utterly depressing!

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#72 Old 05-10-2013, 01:12 PM
 
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A multi-step process, no doubt. It will take you at least three years to pull off. Longer, if you have help. tongue3.gif

With your attitude nothing will ever change and ultimately the animals will suffer.  Being the brunt of a joke because of my beliefs by a warped vegetarian, is this a dream?

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#74 Old 05-10-2013, 01:54 PM
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With your attitude nothing will ever change and ultimately the animals will suffer.  Being the brunt of a joke because of my beliefs by a warped vegetarian, is this a dream?

 

MOD POST- Ponyboy85, your posts in this thread have repeatedly been in violation of VB rules, which state that the vegetarian forums are not to be used for selling the vegan way of life. The OP has expressed an interest in transitioning to vegetarianism, not veganism. If he wanted to go vegan, this thread would be in another location. If you continue to post adamantly about veganism in the vegetarian forums, I'm going to delete your posts.You have to follow the rules like eveyone else, and as long as you break the rules, you shouldn't be so surprised when others call you out for it. You do not have special privileges over and above everybody else.

 

I suggest you drop the subject of veganism in this thread, forthwith.


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#75 Old 05-10-2013, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ponyboy85

Sorry but your post is ridiculous.  I honestly don't think you 'get it' if you think we can't be abolitionists because the cows and chickens aren't leaders within the movement, the example of slavery gets used because it was a fairly recent social change where, like non-human animals, blacks were considered a different species so it's a very relevant comparison to make.
...
By the way you sound scared that vegans are going to take over the world or something.  Plus i'm super glad you don't have a 'problem' with veganism because if you did I would jump in the car and drive to Burger King right now.


It's not a question of whether you "can be abolitionist." People can be all kinds of things. It's a question of the word's connotation and history, its gravitas, and whether its positive associations will transfer readily to the cause of animal liberation. Obviously, I don't believe they can, not in a way that resonates the way it would have to, to have been a good idea. To my ear when AR activists or supporters refer to themselves as abolitionists it's distracting, enough so to fight your message. It comes across as grandiose, as lacking in perspective, as lacking in respect for the Civil War dead. It comes across like those who would refer to some disappointing legislative defeat as "a Holocaust."

 

Quote:

 
Originally Posted by ponyboy85
 
I'm confused about your comments on 'making something seem reasonable' if you are meaning veganism then I really don't understand.  Going vegan is not about it 'appealing' to you or 'reasonable' it is about showing compassion and understanding fully that treating sentient beings as commodities is morally wrong.  In fact a vegan lifestyle isn't about humans at all.  Judging from your tirade you obviously don't agree with this sentiment.  However, when I discuss the subject with people that are willing to listen to a side they have never heard before - animals matter morally, I get very positive feedback (ha can I call it that?), people say they have never thought of it like that etc and people change because of it.

 

To clarify, your challenge as I see it is to make not veganism, but your abolitionist stance, seem reasonable, in a way that advances the paradigm shift you're hoping for. If your own personal tactic is to reach out to combative and sarcastic people who will see you as a kindred spirit, maybe you can work that. But to my ear, your tone is bound to alienate far more people than it will win over. Or maybe your tone is just more heated here and now because I've antagonized you. I understand that you're a three-dimensional person with a real life out there, and that your words here are only a crudely drawn representation of the real you. But that's all I have to go by in responding to the things you write.

 

ETA: Ponyboy, writing this post seems to have crossed with Capstan's message, and I don't want to risk you getting an infraction or formal warning for responding to this. You're more than welcome to PM me if there's anything you wanted to add.

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#76 Old 05-10-2013, 04:00 PM
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My advice is to go at your pace. You are right about people eating less meat, but the industry is so huge- remember the Beef industry sueing OPRAH!!!

Anyway, do you think is right for you. Do your research. You'll probably soon find the idea of keeping animals for slaughter is so horrific you'll not want to eat something made from their parts.

It does make me think of how people cringe at the idea of eating insects, yet think nothing of eating foods like hotdogs that are known to contain so many. And all the other things made of bugs-shellac covered fruit, beetle colored candy.


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#77 Old 05-10-2013, 05:45 PM
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Hi,

It would be better for a million people to become half veggie rather than 100 of them to be veggie. However it would be better for a million people to become vegetarian than for them to become half vegetarian. As for you it would be better for you to remain half veggie rather than complete meat eater but it would be even better for the animals if you became full vegetarian and even better yet vegan. 

 

The options you give are not exhaustive. That is, you have not considered the case where everyone does their max. Obviously it is better for the animals to consume less animal products and obviously it is best to not consume any at all.

 

So consume as little as possible, ideally none.

 

Cheers

 

 

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Hi, first post and not trolling so bear with me. I am toying with the idea of becoming vegetarian....due in part to modern meat processes and general poor management and treatment of animals. So whats the problem?
Well the way I see it is that being vegetarian is a form of protest designed to stop animals being killed for food...is that correct?
Assuming this to be right, my action would involve not eating meat...full stop. I see that as the main issue (wrt vegetarianisms goals at least) towards ending animal slaughter. Everything else is secondary.

Still with me? Right. This being my view were I to stop eating meat, I wouldnt be checking the label to see if it had animal fats or something in, nor would I bother if my chips were fried in fat that had had meat in it...etc etc
So.....? So I have been told by some veggies that this is unnacceptable and if I want to do it, I must do it properly or dont bother. To which I say fine and dont bother and continue eating meat.
My point is that surely it would be better for a million people to become vegetarian in this 'half hearted' way than 100 'proper' converts?

Please dont take my words as an insult or anything...I'm trying to see what the general consensus amongst veggies is to my inconsistent approach? I am leaning towards stopping eating meat but dont want to be given grief for my trouble because I dont comply 100% to the 'rules'
Your thoughts would be aporeciated.
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#78 Old 05-11-2013, 01:54 AM
 
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Just to clarify to Jennifer, I have already cut down meat considerably, I *am* thinking of becoming a vegetarian. I just wanted to get a feel of vegetarians attitude to someone who maybe started out a bit non commital.

And you're right; vegetarians aren't one homogeneous block of people there are many differing views within that group.

Anyway I will keep doing as I do. Unless you are implying I am not welcome?
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#79 Old 05-11-2013, 06:55 AM
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Just to clarify to Jennifer, I have already cut down meat considerably, I *am* thinking of becoming a vegetarian. I just wanted to get a feel of vegetarians attitude to someone who maybe started out a bit non commital.

And you're right; vegetarians aren't one homogeneous block of people there are many differing views within that group.

Anyway I will keep doing as I do. Unless you are implying I am not welcome?


Johnoco, you're welcome here. But it's a rules thing: If you're still just toying with the idea of going vegetarian, you're here too early. I thought your hangup was just about trace ingredients and food labels, and what kind of oil fries your potatoes, but it sounds like you haven't made up your mind yet about eating meat and fish. If you just cut way back on your meat consumption, that will speak well for you as a person and be good for the environment and your health too (if you do it right). But it won't make you a vegetarian, not until once in awhile becomes not at all. Some people on VB do have lapses sometimes, and some even post about them. But a lapse is an incident people try not to repeat. Once you've decided for sure, please come on back here. Just look what a good and busy thread you managed to start!

 

You mentioned vegetarianism as a protest against the way food animals are treated. That would be a boycott, aimed at getting industry to treat food animals better. But vegetarians don't eat meat at all, even from gently raised pastured animals, and VB is a vegetarian forum. I myself wouldn't mind a subforum here where omnivores were welcome to post. But I respect their reasons for not having one, especially considering all the testy exchanges we've had between vegetarians and vegans. Whenever I feel like mixing it up with omnivores about eating meat, I go to HuffingtonPost.com.

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#80 Old 05-11-2013, 01:42 PM
 
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Fair enough. I'm out. Goodbye
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#81 Old 05-11-2013, 01:58 PM
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Fair enough. I'm out. Goodbye
Come back when you go veg! smiley.gif
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#82 Old 05-11-2013, 02:25 PM
 
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Come back when you go veg! smiley.gif
Thanks but its unlikely. I'll still stop eating meat but not worry about anyones opinion. Thanks and bye all
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#83 Old 05-11-2013, 02:39 PM
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Some people just want to keep making excuses I guess to have meat once in awhile. o.o


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#84 Old 05-11-2013, 02:48 PM
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We are not asking you to stop eating animal products in order to do us a favour and to respect our opinion smiley.gif

We are asking you to do so in order to not contribute to animal cruelty. You should do it for their sake not ours:

 

 

 

 

Take care :)

 

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Thanks but its unlikely. I'll still stop eating meat but not worry about anyones opinion. Thanks and bye all
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#85 Old 05-11-2013, 05:53 PM
 
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Some people just want to keep making excuses I guess to have meat once in awhile. o.o
Not fair, 4ever, he did say he'll still stop eating meat...

I thought the “Transitioning to Vegetarian” was there to help those who want to become vegetarians? Looked to me that's what Johnoco is trying to do. He may go at slowly at first, but isn't is what transition is all about?
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#86 Old 05-11-2013, 07:35 PM
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Not fair, 4ever, he did say he'll still stop eating meat...

I thought the “Transitioning to Vegetarian” was there to help those who want to become vegetarians? Looked to me that's what Johnoco is trying to do. He may go at slowly at first, but isn't is what transition is all about?

Yeah, I meant the animal products he was going to overlook. It wasn't meant to be an attack, more of just an "okay ._. " I can't really tell over the internet but he seemed a bit disgruntled with the responses he received and I thought he was just leaving to make more of a statement, I just get that feeling.


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#87 Old 05-12-2013, 02:28 AM
 
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Hi again. Just to clarify, it wasn't a statement of anything or a strop or anything like that. I have pretty much been told 'come back when you are a vegetarian'. As a newcomer, what do you think that means other than 'b*gger off'?
I have never trolled or wasted my time on message boards and aren't starting now.
That, is definitely my last word on the matter.
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#88 Old 05-12-2013, 02:33 AM
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well, the forum has to have a cut off point at some stage or otherwise it would be allowing all sorts of people with dead animal products in their diet, like fish.

You don't have to be a vegetarian, just kind of have a made up mind to transition, or attempt to.

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#89 Old 05-12-2013, 02:42 AM
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I've lost track of what you still plan to go ahead and eat, anyway.

I'm also not sure what the cut off point would be; would someone who ate cheese with rennet still be allowed on this forum? Or what is the cut off?

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#90 Old 05-12-2013, 10:56 AM
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I am not sure where I stand on not allowing non-vegetarians to post here. I would not personally mind it if you posted here. But anyhow there is a moral issue here. While I appreciate your efforts I think more should be done. This is not aimed at you specifically, just people in general but many of us at veggieboards feel that animals are being tormented because people are too lazy to give up their harmful old habits. We think that is immoral and that is why there is a lot of friction with such people. I have not said this to give you personal offense but rather to help you understand our view.

 

Furthermore, when I overthrow the current regime of this forum even vegetarians will be lucky if they are not banned from veggieboards tongue3.gif

 

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Hi again. Just to clarify, it wasn't a statement of anything or a strop or anything like that. I have pretty much been told 'come back when you are a vegetarian'. As a newcomer, what do you think that means other than 'b*gger off'?
I have never trolled or wasted my time on message boards and aren't starting now.
That, is definitely my last word on the matter.
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