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#1 Old 02-16-2005, 06:57 PM
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Remilard's message in the credit card thread mentioned something I have been thinking a lot about lately.



He said his sister lives in North Carolina where a nice house can be had for 40K.



I live in the Washington D.C. metro area where homes in some suburbs originally built for government workers with modest salaries are now going for several hundred thousand to a million dollars a piece.



I have a cheap ( comparatively ) apartment, not a lot of total assets though I could buy half of Remilard's sister's house ( misspent youth ) and I have no desire to commit to house.



No worries, I have a couple of decades of earning power left.



I have been playing with the idea that if I don't have a lot more cash when I retire that I will simply go to a cheap part of the country and buy something like a remilard's sister's house. I figure doing that, plus the other savings I will have, pensions/roths/ssn will give me enough cash to pay my property taxes, buy food, heat, internet access etc.



It does seem to be the pattern that the interesting places to live ( at least those with cultural outlets, jobs etc ) are also the most expensive.



My only worry is that I will have to relocate in the middle of nowhere when I retire be bored out of my mind, and/or be surrounded by people who do not share my values.



Thoughts?

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#2 Old 02-16-2005, 08:18 PM
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Great post. This is a very important aspect to consider. I used to know a person from CIty who had to move to a small town and got sad there.



Planning/Preparing in advance for everything is the key.



Times alone are very precious resource. One can sorround oneself with:

1. Books.

2. Artistic Activites

3. Net/Reading

4. Meditation/Spirituality/Personal Development

5. Local Volunteer



Occassional visits to a City nearby etc.,



In ancient days monks/sages took to the Hills and wished to live alone. Rather than focusing on what one will miss by living in a remote area, one must focus on what troubles one is avoiding by living rural. By living rural/urban you will be missing:

1. High Rent

2. Traffic

3. Crime

4. Rush, Pollution, Rat Race



There are things to be gained and compromised. One can't have everything. Also, I remember a great quote: This si Earth and not Paradise. No matter where you go or how much you have there will be problems and one has to deal with them.



You are a programmer, Open Source is exploding and you can still contribute from being at home. If not for pay, then atleast for volunteer in areas of purely your choice.



Looking forward to other posts in this thread eagerly.



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#3 Old 02-16-2005, 09:07 PM
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You are a programmer, Open Source is exploding and you can still contribute from being at home. If not for pay, then atleast for volunteer in areas of purely your choice.



I plan on becoming a cracker when I retire.

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#4 Old 02-17-2005, 06:18 AM
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My sister retired to Texas. The tax bases is much lower than other states, the cost of living is very moderate, you are still in civilization or can drive to it. They built a huge new home for $125,000 which would sell in Oklahoma for $180,000. That same house would sell on the east or west coast for $250,000. at least. Do your research and you can find nice place to retire.
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#5 Old 02-17-2005, 07:52 AM
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We have a similar plan. We recently bought an old, little house that we're remodeling. Given the nature of the housing market where I live ($$$) and the (sub)urban sprawl that's heading our way, we expect a big profit in a few years. Eventually we'll move somewhere very remote and buy a little cabin. That's the plan anyway.



I don't think I'll miss being close to the city. I'm enjoying it now, but I know I'll like being in a more remote location too. I'm more of a home-body/loner personality anyway though.
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#6 Old 02-17-2005, 08:03 AM
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I'm currently working on my retirement. I work very little as it is, and hope to work even less in the future. To that end, I'm trying to set us up to be a self-sufficient for food and energy as possible. I expect this will take me a couple of years. We both intend to work for money as long as we can, but we're looking at diversifying our income.
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#7 Old 02-17-2005, 08:48 AM
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How about Montana? Do you like nature and the outdoors? I live in Colorado and methinks there are plenty of "dinky" places around here that would be cool to relocate to upon retirement (I've quite a ways to go though )...but they're far enough away that you don't really get "touched" by city "problems" (traffic, pollution, etc.)...yet close enough that if you hit it right, you could get by going to the store maybe once every two weeks, or take a weekend to go to museums in the city and whatnot... *shrug* My 2 cents



Cheers.
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#8 Old 02-17-2005, 09:33 AM
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A 40K house? A crack house in the worst part of town in STL goes for about 90. In Little Rock, you could buy a crack house for 40k, though. The downside was that people would get into the house everyday to look for stuff to steal. Thankfully for the guy who lived there ... he had nothing more than a mattress on the floor ... Generally speaking, I've found that places that are 'affordable' are places in which its not worth living. Otherwise, we'd all rush to move there, which would cause the property values to skyrocket and become unaffordable again
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#9 Old 02-17-2005, 10:18 AM
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We're facing this "problem" as well. We live in a very small cottage in San Francisco, whose value has more than doubled since we bought it. On the one hand it seems very attractive to sell it and buy a much cheaper place in Mexico or the Caribbean or Southern Europe, and live of the proceeds, but on the other hand I would be very worried about losing my connection to the city and everything it has to offer. But at the same time it would be great to have more time and freedom and be able to retire earlier. So ultimately I guess you're trading off your time for access to "civilization". And sometimes (after hours sitting in traffic, for example) that can feel like a bad choice.
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#10 Old 02-17-2005, 10:24 AM
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Oh, one other thing I would add is that I believe you can trade off size for other things. The only way we can afford to live in San Francisco is by living in a small house. While it would be nice to have a garage and a pantry and a "master suite" with walk-in closets, I am very happy that we chose to do without those things and live in a friendly neighborhood in a beautiful city instead.
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#11 Old 02-17-2005, 01:48 PM
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i simply plan on being very wealthy, starting to earn and grow in wealth over the next four years and extending until forever, as i never plan to retire.



i would like to have an old farmhouse and some land in this area, and perhaps a few other areas too. i have a dream of a flat/apartment in copenhagen, and perhaps another house someplace warm.



but i still don't plan on retiring. weird, huh? i do what i love, so how could i retire from yoga?
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#12 Old 02-17-2005, 02:03 PM
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so how could i retire from yoga?



1. Give away your tights. Get a collection sweat pants, XXL.



2. Stop eating all produce. Fill up on refined flour products, refined grains,

soda, and big box store discount snacks.



3. Stop reading books. Watch television for a minumum of 3 hours a night.

Watch large amounts of fox news.



4. Stop recycling. Drive a SUV. When making any purchase ask yourself

if any kind of activist would discourage you from buying that product

or sevice. If the answer is "yes" buy it. Then do it again.



5. Whenever someone approaches you with a new idea or an opinion that

is not your own or that you did not grow up with refuse to listen. Write

him/her off as a kook.



6. Do not do any kind of manual labor unless you can get someone or

something to do it for you.



Repeat



Give it 6 months to a year. All traces of mental/physical/spiritual vitality will start leaving you.

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#13 Old 02-17-2005, 03:42 PM
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A 40K house? A crack house in the worst part of town in STL goes for about 90. In Little Rock, you could buy a crack house for 40k, though. The downside was that people would get into the house everyday to look for stuff to steal. Thankfully for the guy who lived there ... he had nothing more than a mattress on the floor ... Generally speaking, I've found that places that are 'affordable' are places in which its not worth living. Otherwise, we'd all rush to move there, which would cause the property values to skyrocket and become unaffordable again



Little Rock and St. Louis have hundreds of thousands of residents, if SL isn't in the low millions. The largest "city" in extreme SE Kansas is Parsons, where I grew up. Population < 10,000. I had a friend who owned a nice 3,000 SF victorian there that he paid 80K for, I would expect to pay over half a million for the same in Portland. The difference is, in Parsons the property is worth nearly nothing so you are only paying for the actual house. I think the full size lot our house was on was appraised at $700 in the 90s.
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#14 Old 02-17-2005, 04:00 PM
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Little Rock and St. Louis have hundreds of thousands of residents, if SL isn't in the low millions. The largest "city" in extreme SE Kansas is Parsons, where I grew up. Population < 10,000. I had a friend who owned a nice 3,000 SF victorian there that he paid 80K for, I would expect to pay over half a million for the same in Portland. The difference is, in Parsons the property is worth nearly nothing so you are only paying for the actual house. I think the full size lot our house was on was appraised at $700 in the 90s.



Yup, land value is the largest issue in highly populated areas. Makes sense since you have less space per person. Oddly enough, it may actually cost you more to build the house itself in a rural location. One of the biggest cost factors would be running utilities to the site. In general though, a 'quality' new house will cost you anywhere from about 75 to 200 a square foot depending on whether you want tract house or custom high quality. If you find a decent older house in a small town ... and don't mind being in a small town ... you'll be in mortgage heaven
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#15 Old 02-17-2005, 05:06 PM
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steve:



the really scary thing about your post is that of the 30 or so yoga teachers in my area whom i know well, most of those things apply.



Most of them are definately practicing #s 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. they spend a lot of money on their yoga clothes. For many of them, they teach 2-4 times a week and take 2-4 yoga classes a week, which means they need 4-8 yoga outfits. most of them have enough for a different outfit for two weeks, which is 8-16 outfits. They buy the 'big brands' in yoga clothes such as lulumon, prana, and yogi. in these brands, yoga pants (which could be fitted or loose fit) often cost between $65 and $75 per pair. Shirts, which are usually tank tops with built in bras cost anywhere from $45 to $55 per tank top. Then, you also need your hoodie or sweater or long-sleeved t-shirt top, which often ranges from $50 to $80. So, if you spend on the low end for each outfit, you're spening $160. And then you buy 16 of them.



So, it's not 'sweats' but i think it still may be slightly devoid of spirituality. My friend, who is also not so much into the 'yoga clothes' thing, made this great 'commercial':



yoga pants: $65

yoga tank top: $45

yoga hoodie: $50

yoga mat: $35

yoga mat bag: $60

yoga shoes for after class: $80

yoga om symbol necklace in gold with diamonds: $400



being 'in' in yoga class: priceless.



also, to #2, you should have 'eat meat.' i mean, if we're going to go all the way with this.



my favorite is when i get into discussions with some of my friends about aparigraha (greedlessness), and they go on and on about how good they are at that one. I often talk about how i struggle with it to no end. Then, they do their comparison games with each other: i went to shiva rae! oh yeah, i went to judith lassiter. oh yeah, i went to the caymens with beryl. oh yeah, i went to canada with rodney yee. oh yeah, well i went to ---- with ----. oooh! i want to go with ---- to ----- next month, but i just don't know if i can afford it. oh! well, i'm already signed up for that one!



And then there's "do you like my new mat/outfit/necklace/sweater/shoes/workshop information/massage therapist/accupuncturist/coffee mug with om symbol with special starbucks refilling discounts/pedicure/SUV's bumpersticker that says 'live simply so that others may simply live'?



ah, the joys of practicing bhoga.



please pardon my bitterness.
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#16 Old 02-17-2005, 06:40 PM
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Steve:

the really scary thing about your post is that of the 30 or so yoga teachers in my area whom i know well, most of those things apply.

<snip>

please pardon my bitterness.



I will pardon your bitterness, but I will encourage you to take in a larger view.



The things you described are qualities or ordinary people. Yoga has been trendy......even fashionable ( those outfits do look slick ) for the last several years so you see ordinary people with ordinary shortcomings showing up in and teaching classes.



These people enjoy some good benefits out of the level of yoga they are ready practice and by making it trendy, more ubiquitous, they make resources available ( if only at the entry point ) for the people out there who would potentially get into things deeper.



Everyone benefits.

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#17 Old 02-17-2005, 07:54 PM
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He said his sister lives in North Carolina where a nice house can be had for 40K.



I live in the Washington D.C. metro area where homes in some suburbs originally built for government workers with modest salaries are now going for several hundred thousand to a million dollars a piece.



This is interesting as I have been researching houses in NC over the last month and have come to the conclusion that I can buy really nice beachfront property very cheaply. I am in the same boat you are as I do not live too far from you and houseing prices have gone through the roof! I have been to NC several times and love the East Coast. I have also lived in central and it was OK, but not my cup of tea.



I wonder how many others are coming to the same conclusion and will retire down there causing the property value to increase before I am ready to move. I have even though I may buy a home down there and either vacation or even lease it out? hmmmm.....
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#18 Old 02-17-2005, 08:30 PM
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I wonder how many others are coming to the same conclusion and will retire down there causing the property value to increase before I am ready to move. I have even though I may buy a home down there and either vacation or even lease it out? hmmmm.....



People moving when they retire is not a new phenomenon in the US. That area may be filled up by the time you are ready, but there will be some other semi-rural area with cheap land.



I figure it is either that or go to a cheap, but nice European or 3rd world country.



Out in the stix in America would seem less alien, which might be a comfort at that point in my life.

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#19 Old 02-18-2005, 02:57 PM
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while i agree with the larger view that everyone benefits, in the mean time, i become the 'whipping girl' of the other yoga teachers.



1. when speaking about our health, people often mention how they want to loose weight. they ask me how i do it, and i tell them--exercise more and cut calories. Then, they rant about how my vegetarianism keeps me thin, how they can't do it because that sort of self denial would be difficult (though, to me, it's not self denial at all, but rather self actualization), and how i should stop judging people for not being vegetarian. quite frankly, i don't think about it.



2. when speaking about the practice of ahimsa, they talk about how they work to end the suffering of others. i will join the discussion and talk about how i want to decrease my environmental impact so that future generations do not inheret my trash and potential disease and other problems that come from it. I'm told that i'm being petty and shallow and that they need SUVs to be safe because they're driving children around with all of those other peopel with SUVs which are dangerous. So, they need one to be safe. And why recycle? there's no real need. And vegetarianism isn't an environmental issue anyway. THey then accuse me of being judgemental and unyogic.



3. when i asked various teachers who now own studios for the opportunity to teach with them, at their studios, i was promptly turned down. "You're not spiritual enough in your yoga yet." and "you're not mature enough in your teaching or your understanding of yoga yet to teach for us." and "you dont' understand our theme of love and nonvoilence that we are teaching at our studio, because you haven't experienced real love or loss in your life yet." And "you can't connect with women who are mothers because you are not a mother yet; msot of our teachers are mothers." And "you didn't study with (insert name of famous yogin here), so you're obviously not dedicated enough to your practice or your students to spend the necessary money to get the 'right' education."



4. on multiple occassions, without provocation or even talking to a given person, these teachers will call or approach me to give me 'spiritual advice' about my meditation practice and my practice and application of the yamas and niyamas. i need to do X, Y, or Z thing that they're doing (like teaching their neighborhood friends for free as community service) instead of whatever i'm doing (which, right now, consists of free classes at the local senior center, the bilingual (hispanic youth) center, the local pregant women's shelter, the local AA meeting house, and offering free thai massage for caregivers at the local hospital's caregivers support group--and, btw, they don't know about this work because i don't talk about it). their big current thing is how 'we should all do community service' as a practice of yoga (karma yoga), and yet most of them consider 'working for under $50 a class' community service.



it makes sense that 'ordinary people' with ordinary shortcomings will take up yoga, gain major benefits (i've seen them) and still have major shortcomings. Heck, i have major shortcomings, which is why i'm so nutso about my spiritual disciplines. it also makes sense that these people, being touched by yoga, want to teach it.



what bothers me is that my yoga is considered problematic, such that i continually need their unsolicited 'advice' about things and their opinion of me is quite low. of these 30 odd teachers whom i know, most of them have been practing yoga for 5 or 6 years. Most of them have been teahcing yoga for 4 years or less. Most of them do not have a daily asana practice, no meditation practice, no scriptural basis, little or no community service (not that it's required or whatever, but since they've been harping on me about it), no practice of vegetarianism (which isn't per se required, but is definately considered an important element to the practice of ahimsa, which is a yama in yoga practice), and so on.



i think that i'm bitter not because they're teaching or any other thing, but because they truly see themselves as 'more yogic' or 'better than me' such that they should 'step up' and be my spiritual guides. It's true that i learn things from them, from their experiences and ways. But, it's probably true that they could learn something from me too--but they'll usually just say that i'm too immature in my life, yoga practice, or whatever else to give them anything of value.



i think that's where i'm bitter. Not so much in their various shortcomings or the fact that they teach, but rather than they look down on me, when i'm 'walking the talk' as much as i can--and striving to do more each and every day. i think that some of them are striving, but because they can't/wont'/don't dedicate themselves to a daily practice of asana, pranayama, meditation, scriptural study, and self examination, it makes it much harder to reach their aspirations. But, there's nothing that i can do about that, and i generally don't mention it.



also, they're literally pull clients away with 'special deals' and negative statements about me. of course, clients are always free to go where-ever they wish and find wahtever joy they find there. i'm not so much attached to the individual clients (though i do love them), but i am disappointed by this behavoir on the part of my peers toward me. For many of them, yoga is a hobby; teaching yoga is a hobby. For me, it's my life and livelihood--so it really feels like stealing from my body and home. i live fairly simply overall, and i'm always finding ways to cut corners and save money, but loosing clients or potential jobs because someone said "oh, you don't want her, she's immature in her practice' when i've been teaching for 5 or more years longer, when i've been practicing for 24 years, that is really hurtful and upsetting.



and that's when i'm bitter about it. i really don't care if people eat a certain way or drive a certain thing. you know? but when they put me down for doing my thing, and 'following the rules' so to speak of that which they're constantly going on about, putting themselves out there as great followers of, then i get a bit upset about it, a bit bitter.
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#20 Old 02-18-2005, 03:36 PM
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.... <snip>



So you are saying that you walk the talk, they don't, "y'all" know it, that puts them on the defensive, and they trash talk to you because of it.



That would make me mad.



I also think you are in good company. Any person who strives for a spirituality that doesn't reinforce the status quo usually finds themselves getting the treatment.



Use it an indicator that you are doing something right.



At the end of your life, when you look back, you will have something.



Some of those people, if they have the capacity to look back at the end of their lives, will have less.

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#21 Old 02-18-2005, 03:48 PM
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I also think you are in good company. Any person who strives for a spirituality that doesn't reinforce the status quo usually finds themselves getting the treatment.



Use it an indicator that you are doing something right.



And hey, some of us yoga students here and there can tell the wheat from the chaff. Since you are being true to what you know is the right path, you will surround yourself with the same. Let the matching Dacron-jumpsuit SUV-driving tae-bogists get together and drink White Zinfandel and talk about how In Their Bodies they are...When the student is ready, zoebird will appear.
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#22 Old 02-18-2005, 04:39 PM
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i have many students, so there's no complaint in that. i love my work, i value my students highly, and i know that the whole process of coming and going is very fluid. i mean, sometimes i move on too--and so do they, and that's appropriate.



ultimately, the only thing that matters is how i feel about myself. i have a lot to learn, and i strive to learn it. so, i have that. i feel good about what i know and my ability to share it. I do well and i have confidence in myself.



it is hard to be 'put down' by peers, and put down in ways that can hurt 'my career.' but, i do this for love of liberation and healing, for love of people, so if a job is 'taken' through the negativety of another, perhaps it was best that i didn't get that job, or take it, or recieve it.



i think it's great, though, that i've been able to work out some of my conflicting feelings here. I have both a love for these yoga-teacher 'friends' and a mild disdain for some of their behavoirs that they seem to think are completely acceptable. Usually, their behavoirs make me laugh, and sometimes they sting. but, in the end, i really do care for them and hope for their best.
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#23 Old 02-19-2005, 03:37 PM
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Don't know a thing about yoga, but I thought this thread was about retirement anyway.

Technically I am already retired at age 33. I live on a pension of $509 a month, with occasional supplements in form of tax return & occasional small cheques from Dad or radio station.

I cannot save anything for retirement, & I cannot see how an elderly person with many expensive health needs can survive on it.

So I'm hoping voluntary euthanasia becomes a legality for those of us who literally cannot afford to live but do not want to be on the streets, starving, etc.

In the meantime I always make sure to keep a suicide kit handy just in case I lose my pension (ie. tranquillizers & liquor).
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#24 Old 02-19-2005, 03:51 PM
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literally cannot afford to live



It's just heartbreaking and wrong that our society would force people into this position. No one should have to worry about being able to "afford to live."



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#25 Old 02-19-2005, 04:14 PM
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I agree. Yet it seems that a decent life has become a luxury. By decent I mean: a life with heated housing, electricity, phone, medical care, nutritious & adequate food, transportation & maybe even a little leftover for something nice like an inexpensive or practical hobby to eat up the spare time.

It's a luxury now.
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#26 Old 02-19-2005, 05:35 PM
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I agree. Yet it seems that a decent life has become a luxury. By decent I mean: a life with heated housing, electricity, phone, medical care, nutritious & adequate food, transportation & maybe even a little leftover for something nice like an inexpensive or practical hobby to eat up the spare time.

It's a luxury now.



Hi Organica:



It is good that you are able to come online. This is a very positive thing. There is so much one can do by being online interms of an inexpensive or practical hobby.



The Linux Community is growing long with the use of Linux. I suggest that you try Debian Linux at www.debian.org

There are also several Linux Distros that work from a floppy that are a easy download but still a great learning experience. All books/compilers/tutorials for learning programming are online. The Linux Community also encourges more women to participate.



Eventually, several even become online volunteers. As a volunteer one still contributes to the society. Only thing is that there is no pay. Still it is a very positive special experience, Linux can be a great hobby and rewarding in many ways.



I recently shifted to Debian. They have a collection of 8900 programs roughly that are all a FREE download. Things like this is what several Programmers/IT people do and it is actually fun.



Also, there are several sites inregards to starvation. More than lack of food in North America obesity is the problem. So some starvation is actually good and I hope to do it down the line.



Last but not least, as a society we have begun to expect a lot more. In those days a person with a blanket to sleep and a piece of bread for the day was considered lucky/sufficient. There are some diaries of ancient pioneers in North America online. They are itneresting read as they had FAR lot less than what we have but still were happy/content.



I also encourage you to play Sokoban. Some versions are available online for a free download. It has a great depth to it and helps in overcomming obstacles upon reflection, develops patience etc.,.



Here is quote from Dr. Viktor Frankel who survived the Concentration Camps:

Man will survive any challenge and live as long as he/she has a strong reason to live.



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#27 Old 02-19-2005, 05:37 PM
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For Steve:

When living in isolated places, having pets/interest in nature/gardening is a must and greatly helps. Actaully, the space for this in the Country is a great resource that those in the City are always short of.



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#28 Old 02-20-2005, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rvijay View Post

Hi Organica:



Last but not least, as a society we have begun to expect a lot more. In those days a person with a blanket to sleep and a piece of bread for the day was considered lucky/sufficient. There are some diaries of ancient pioneers in North America online. They are itneresting read as they had FAR lot less than what we have but still were happy/content.





Here is quote from Dr. Viktor Frankel who survived the Concentration Camps:

Man will survive any challenge and live as long as he/she has a strong reason to live.



Vijay



Can see what you are saying Vijay, but I think I must disagree.

It is true I could *survive* with a blanket & a piece of bread, but I do not believe it would be conducive to my physical or mental health to live this way.

I live very close to a soup kitchen & everyday I witness the condition (physical & mental) of the men who go there. It is extremely sad: they look dirty, unwell, many missing teeth, many evidently mentally ill.

When I think of the elderly poor, I think of how hard the impoverished lifestyle is on young, more resilient bodies & minds, & how it must be doubly painful & deleterious to an old person.

I also think of how disgusting it is that our society forces those who have contributed to it all their lives to now suffer in inadequate housing, with hunger pains & illnesses that could be treated if only they had the money for prescriptions, etc.

It might be noble to put up with all this, but it should NOT be necessary in a society as affluent as ours.

It is very clear that modern Western society regards old people as waste products.

Hence my suicide kit.
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#29 Old 02-20-2005, 04:45 PM
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For Organica:



Ultimately money etc., can't help with the challenges fo aging. Everyone loose their teeth etc., That is why Buddhism was born. Young Buddha saw all this and wanted a solution.



A search on the net with the word suicide bringsup several support sites.



People have used spirituality to deal with and overcome extremely challenging situations.



I used to know a person from Ukraine. For storing a few bags of wheat, several of his ancestors were killed. Still members of his family survived the horrible famine of Ukraine that is now a big part of History.



Vijay
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#30 Old 02-20-2005, 07:36 PM
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One could argue that Buddhism was invented to encourage people not to fight against the incredibly exploitative system they found themselves in - life is suffering, therefore, you should not seek anything better, simply accede to your suffering and your life will become easier. This made managing vast numbers of virtual slaves much easier. See also similar history of Christianity after the Council of Nicea.
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