California Bans Homeschooling - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 03-07-2008, 09:09 AM
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The Second District Court of Appeal ruled that California law requires parents to send their children to full-time public or private schools or have them taught by credentialed tutors at home.



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I am absoluetely astounded by this. For the first time ever, I'm very glad I don't live in California. We plan to homeschool our children, and if that becomes illegal I don't know what we'll do.



What are your thoughts on this?
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#2 Old 03-07-2008, 09:40 AM
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I am absoluetely astounded by this. For the first time ever, I'm very glad I don't live in California. We plan to homeschool our children, and if that becomes illegal I don't know what we'll do.



What are your thoughts on this?





I think it's rediculous!



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A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue

.



This quote in particular sounds a touch like brainwashing.
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#3 Old 03-07-2008, 10:04 AM
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Ok, so I'm no expert on the subject of home schooling, but I have to say that I'm opposed to it. I think this law is actually a good idea.



There are several good reasons why children should go to school every day. Socialization - learning to interact with their peers, is the most obvious. Another good one comes from the last paragraph of that article:



Quote:
Heimov said her organization's chief concern was not the quality of the children's education, but their "being in a place daily where they would be observed by people who had a duty to ensure their ongoing safety."



Imagine a situation where abusive parents home school their kids. How would anyone ever find out about it if the kids are never away from their parents, where they feel safer talking to other adults about how they're treated?



I can understand if some parents want to take control of their kids' education. But I think they should be required to work with a school and let the kid spend some time away from their parents at that school on a regular basis. I actually know someone who had to home school her step-daughter for a school year while the girl had multiple surgeries and recovered. The woman and her husband worked with a school that way, and even had the girl go to school to take tests on a semi-regular basis.



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#4 Old 03-07-2008, 10:15 AM
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It is Not up to the government to tell me how to raise my children. I was homeschooled for awhile and I turned out just fine, above average I'd say. Our school system is junk and I seek to change that. There are instances of abuse with homeschooling... just like there are with traditionally schooled children. The fact that the government has just been given presidence over my (future) children scares me terribly.



The "duty to ensure their ongoing safety" lies with ME, their Parent, not with the government. Socialization is not a problem with homeschooling. It can be, and *shock horror* it can be a problem in traditional schools as well. This is a bogus attempt at getting more money into schools. The teachers' association thinks this is marvelous and I wonder why. I was in line to become a teacher until I worked in a school and saw how the teachers aren't "teaching" anymore. It's all ditto BS now that follows a government set standard. No thank you!



Fromper, I'm not attackin you here, I swear I'm just venting a little about this whole thing.
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#5 Old 03-07-2008, 10:20 AM
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I was in line to become a teacher until I worked in a school and saw how the teachers aren't "teaching" anymore. It's all ditto BS now that follows a government set standard. No thank you!

So instead of working to change a lousy system, you're ok with walking away and letting everyone else's kids suffer? Maybe if all the parents who home school because they've lost faith in the schools were forced to send their kids to those schools, they'd all get together and work towards fixing the school system, instead of avoiding it.



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#6 Old 03-07-2008, 10:22 AM
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It is Not up to the government to tell me how to raise my children.



This is obviously false. There are plenty of circumstances where the government does and _should_ interfere with parenting. Such as child abuse.



Now that may not be the case with homeschooling, but your statement struck me.



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I was homeschooled for awhile and I turned out just fine, above average I'd say.



This is anecdotal evidence and doesn't prove anything (don't they teach you that in home school? )



Whether or not homeschooling is a good idea, your sample size of one doesn't suggest anything.
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#7 Old 03-07-2008, 10:24 AM
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Are parents that homeschool currently required to aquire some sort of teaching creditial?



If not, I think the requirement of "credentialed tutors" is a very good thing. I don't think homeschooling should be illegal, but it should definately be monitored closely enough to determine if children's education needs are being met.
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#8 Old 03-07-2008, 10:30 AM
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So instead of working to change a lousy system, you're ok with walking away and letting everyone else's kids suffer? Maybe if all the parents who home school because they've lost faith in the schools were forced to send their kids to those schools, they'd all get together and work towards fixing the school system, instead of avoiding it.



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No no... I still work within schools to foster changes just in different ways. I would rather put my efforts into changing things than be at the mercy of the government and forced to do things their way... at least until I see the changes I work for implemented.



Allowing the government to Force you to do things is not good. What will I be Forced into next? This is not the governments role or at least it shouldn't be. I don't need the government to tell me how to raise my children, what to eat, where and how to live etc. What kind of world is that? Oh wait... we have examples of that and they aren't good.
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#9 Old 03-07-2008, 10:31 AM
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Wow, that's a surprising ruling! There's no way that can hold up for long.
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#10 Old 03-07-2008, 11:17 AM
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Are parents that homeschool currently required to aquire some sort of teaching creditial?



If not, I think the requirement of "credentialed tutors" is a very good thing. I don't think homeschooling should be illegal, but it should definately be monitored closely enough to determine if children's education needs are being met.



I'd agree with this. What's the process to become credentialled that is required by this ruling?



What if the parent didn't know math, barely knew how to read, whatever... That wouldn't be giving the child a fair chance.

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#11 Old 03-07-2008, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Beachbnny View Post

It is Not up to the government to tell me how to raise my children.



The problem is, if you don't raise your children properly, then the government often is forced to take care of your kids when they grow up.



The article makes it pretty clear that this started as a child welfare case, which is a good basis. There are plenty of people who "homeschool" their kids so they'll have extra labor around the house during the day, or because the parents don't speak English and don't want to deal with the hassles of interacting with the schools, or because they abuse their kids and don't want people to find out, etc.



The law hasn't made homeschooling illegal. It requires that the parents be qualified teachers if that's the road they want to take.
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#12 Old 03-07-2008, 01:08 PM
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it likely won't be upheld for long.



as for educational needs, most states have some form of standardization (testing/etc) that homeschooled kids must demonstrate proficiency in order to remain homeschooled. otherwise, they have to move into a situation where they are getting schooled in another way (tutors, partial school/homeschool, or going to school).



also, since it did start as a child welfare case, this might have been something that started with child protective services, an organization that is independent of the schools (though schools are mandatory reporters), and anyone can invoke the services of CPS if they feel that a child is endangered. i've called CPS on two families--one because i saw bruises on a child, the other because the boyfriend was doing/dealing drugs while being the primary caregiver for the children. in both cases, i was a neighbor and didn't know the families well. i just figured out something was wrong and called CPS.



and they dealt with the situation. obviously, the schools had not picked up on the fact that one child was being physically abused and the other children were in danger because the mother's bf was using/dealing drugs. instead, a neighbor noticed (that's me) and called the authorities.



so, school's ain't perfect.



and beyond all of that, while i plan on homeschooling my children (and yes, i consider myself more qualified than many teachers), i am not abandoning the school system. i have no children (one in utero, actually), but i've been involved in school board curriculum planning meetings since i moved into this neighborhood 9 years ago.



education is something i believe in, but if i can provide a better education for my child at home--including socialization and all of that--and i'm not an abusive person (which i'm not, thank you), then i will provide that education for my child. Via taxes, social action, and being a part of the school board and related public meetings regarding education, i can support those children who need public education in getting one that i think is good.



but my child gets the best i can give, and if that's homeschooling, then that's what it is (it may not be homeschooling, i don't know what this child's needs are yet.)
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#13 Old 03-07-2008, 01:21 PM
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That is astonishing.



Home schooling is pretty rare in the UK but it's getting more popular every year.



I intend to home school any children I have. There is no way I'm putting any child of mine through a state school.
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#14 Old 03-07-2008, 01:47 PM
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obviously, the schools had not picked up on the fact that one child was being physically abused and the other children were in danger because the mother's bf was using/dealing drugs. instead, a neighbor noticed (that's me) and called the authorities.



obviously? wow... sweeping assumption. the schools involved might have had quite the history of reporting this to CPS and working with both them and the parents.





-i think having a system in place to make sure that parents who educate their children at home are actually capable of educating their kids, makes a lot of sense. its not like anyone can teach a child and do a great job, and it is both the child and society who suffers if their parent can't and doesn't offer them the same level of education as a series of other skilled, trained, experienced adults may be able to, and vice versa.



i'm not stupid (as far as i know) but i can't imagine homeschooling my own theoretical child- i know i'd not have the same level of skills and experience as say... my mum who has been trained and teaching kids for 40+ years, and so i am pretty sure she'd do a better job- that doesn't mean i think a traditional classroom would be the best or only place for her to do it, or that i shouldn't be involved in a big way.



the school system can suck. but homeschooling can also suck. why should only one of them be accountable and asked to prove they're working? perhaps both should have to work to set standards and prove they're attaining what needs to be attained, for kids benefit.



Beachbnny- the government already 'forces' you to look after your childs interests in many other ways- not because it wants to punish you, but to protect them.



if people are motivated to eduate their children- thats great- lets just makes sure they're skilled and supported to do it well- we don't let anyone turn up at the bus depot and be a bus driver, or at the hospital and be a nurse, do we?! if parents hate the standard school system, by all means teach if you're able, but many aren't cut out to teach- they just think they are. if traditional schools aren't your thing, there are alternatives like Montessori and Steiner schools, for example.
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#15 Old 03-07-2008, 03:31 PM
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I'm shocked by the ruling. At first I thought there must be some strange sort of mistake, but it certainly seems legitimate.



I've never been a fan of home schooling, but after the amount of work my wife and I had to go through to deal with poor schooling at our high school, I was more in favor of home schooling. Also, I've had an opportunity to meet more people who've been home schooled and they dispelled my prejudices and misconceptions.



I'm willing to bet that there will be a court order barring enforcement of the ruling for the remainder of the school year. Then I'll bet Arnold will help bring in legislation to allow home schooling.
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#16 Old 03-07-2008, 03:45 PM
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I think it's rediculous!











I agree. How shocking that they want make sure the little tykes can spell properly! Outrageous!



If I read that article correctly, they are not "banning homeschooling" outright. They are just making sure the parents who do homeschool can least use spellcheck, even if they can't spell themselves.

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#17 Old 03-07-2008, 03:55 PM
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I agree. How shocking that they want make sure the little tykes can spell properly! Outrageous!



If I read that article correctly, they are not "banning homeschooling" outright. They are just making sure the parents who do homeschool can least use spell check, even if they can't spell themselves.



OMG I didn't even notice that :insert embarrassed smiley here: I'm a very good speller usually. There should certainly be requirements to be able to homeschool your children but I'm not sure that it needs to be taken that far.
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#18 Old 03-07-2008, 04:00 PM
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I am glad you are not offended.



Some credentials, I feel, are necessary. Some kind of checking up on how the kids are treated, what they are learning, if they parents are qualified to teach. These are all good things, IMHO.

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#19 Old 03-07-2008, 04:11 PM
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I am glad you are not offended.



Some credentials, I feel, are necessary. Some kind of checking up on how the kids are treated, what they are learning, if they parents are qualified to teach. These are all good things, IMHO.



I'm not sure of CA's system but there usually is a system in place to check up on the parents and the kids to be sure everything is going as it should. I don't, however, think a full teaching certifcate is necessary. A shortened version would be a good idea though.
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#20 Old 03-07-2008, 04:21 PM
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I'm not sure of CA's system but there usually is a system in place to check up on the parents and the kids to be sure everything is going as it should. I don't, however, think a full teaching certifcate is necessary. A shortened version would be a good idea though.



The systems I'm familiar with involve little more than registering the location of your home and verifying that you are teaching your kid once or twice a year. I'd honestly like to hear about more substantial systems, if you know about them.
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#21 Old 03-07-2008, 04:25 PM
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Are parents that homeschool currently required to aquire some sort of teaching creditial?



If not, I think the requirement of "credentialed tutors" is a very good thing. I don't think homeschooling should be illegal, but it should definately be monitored closely enough to determine if children's education needs are being met.



I agree. I have a friend who was home schooled. She's an adult now, obviously. The thank you note she sent me for her wedding shower didn't look any different than the one my 9-year-old nephew just sent me for his b-day gift. I've met this friend's mom, and she is not qualified to be a teacher.
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#22 Old 03-07-2008, 04:34 PM
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Apparantly, Ca is the only state that doesn't have a "law" about homeschooling on the books. The provisions as they have always been, are that a child needs to be enrolled in a public or private school by the age of 6, or taught at home by a credentialed tutor. The state has put the onus of upholding that rule on the public schools...like they have time and resources to go into the community and make sure each homeschooling household is following that rule.

What the judge has done, is made a public statement that the provisions that have always been there, are to be upheld, and no longer glossed over.

Parents can STILL homeschool, they just have to be credentialed, or part of a credentialed homeschool program. CAVA (.com) is a perfect example of a full time homeschool prgram, that is overseen by credentialed teachers. Many charter schools also offer full-part time homeschooling programs, with the assistance of a credentialed teacher. This is the route we plan to take.
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#23 Old 03-07-2008, 05:36 PM
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I'm in the "no home schooling" corner. Ultimately, I think it will help California's children.



Just because parents (usually) know what's best for their children does not mean they know anything about academic instruction. And we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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#24 Old 03-07-2008, 06:16 PM
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I had never even heard of "homeschooling" before coming to VB, so I guess you can't do it in my country.

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#25 Old 03-07-2008, 08:03 PM
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Apparantly, Ca is the only state that doesn't have a "law" about homeschooling on the books. The provisions as they have always been, are that a child needs to be enrolled in a public or private school by the age of 6, or taught at home by a credentialed tutor. The state has put the onus of upholding that rule on the public schools...like they have time and resources to go into the community and make sure each homeschooling household is following that rule.

What the judge has done, is made a public statement that the provisions that have always been there, are to be upheld, and no longer glossed over.

Parents can STILL homeschool, they just have to be credentialed, or part of a credentialed homeschool program. CAVA (.com) is a perfect example of a full time homeschool prgram, that is overseen by credentialed teachers. Many charter schools also offer full-part time homeschooling programs, with the assistance of a credentialed teacher. This is the route we plan to take.







And



Quote:
The law hasn't made homeschooling illegal. It requires that the parents be qualified teachers if that's the road they want to take.



The headline is misleading and over dramatic. Simmer down, folks.
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#26 Old 03-07-2008, 08:46 PM
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This title reminds me of the teaser I saw on CNN or whatever major network it was yesterday--"Texas bans Google." Uh, no. When they actually explained it, it turned out that what was banned were street-level Google Earth representations around military bases... not all of Google for all Texans. Someone needs to learn how to write titles/headlines that not only get people's attention but are also accurate.



On the homeschooling issue. When I was growing up as a homeschooled child, Ohio's rules required us to either take standardized testing (in-home if desired) overseen by a licensed teacher, or put together a portfolio of work showing progress throughout the entire year to be examined by a licensed teacher. These licensed teachers could well be public-school teachers. The teacher my family enlisted was a retired public-school teacher, so she had the time to come to our house every day for a week each year. My understanding of the schedules of public-school teachers who are employed full-time is this would be a difficult if not impossible request during the public-school year while not on break.



There is a loophole in Ohio's system for homeschoolers' reporting. That is the O-8 schools. It's this designation for non-profit non-charter schools, requiring them only to report the names, grade levels and addresses of each student. Oh, and the names and positions of all staff members. For some bizarre reason, a homeschooling family can apply to be an O-8 school. It makes absolutely no sense to me. However, the benefit my family found in using this designation for one year is it enabled me to still technically graduate from homeschool high school rather than a public high school when I went to college a year early under Ohio's post-secondary education program. Other homeschooled PSO students who were not enrolled in O-8 homeschools technically graduated from local public high schools... when they had never so much as set foot in a classroom door there. It was more representative of my actual education to graduate from homeschool high school.



My understanding is only a handful of homeschooling families in the state used the O-8 designation. I think the number is in the dozens, and compare that to thousands of homeschooling Ohioan families. I also heard at one point the definition of O-8 was to be changed to keep homeschooling families from using it because it really doesn't make sense and skirts the good reporting the rest of the homeschoolers must do. I don't know if it was redefined or not.



I'm told Pennsylvania has MUCH tougher reporting laws for homeschoolers than Ohio does. Those who are interested in looking at the experience there would probably find it interesting. They've had their stringent laws for some 20 years, IIRC, and it would be easier to tell what the effects have been than guessing at the effects of California's move.

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#27 Old 03-07-2008, 11:01 PM
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Imagine a situation where abusive parents home school their kids. How would anyone ever find out about it if the kids are never away from their parents, where they feel safer talking to other adults about how they're treated?



Many kids are home with their parents from birth through age 5...some pretty horrendous abuse can take place during these years when the kids are most helpless. But I would hardly see this as a reason to require that kids put their babies and toddlers in day care all day.



I plan to put my own kids in public school but I certainly think parents should have the choice of how to educate their children, and homeschooling should be an option. Having some guidelines and testing to make sure kids are meeting educational standards seems appropriate to me.

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#28 Old 03-08-2008, 12:32 AM
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The only thing I see about homeschooling that needs to be overseen is that I think the parents should have to take a test to see if they are even smart enough themselves to teach. The children do already have to go through certein measures with the state board of education. I think the parents must place the children in a social activity to make up for the lack of it with schooling. However, Being in a one-on-one environment VS a several child class room has it's educational benefits. Children frequintly skip grades because of the one-on-one attention they get in learning at home. If with a good parent teacher they will usually learn more, Faster. However, Not all homeschooled children are lucky enough to have this oppertunity, Many parents just lay down a book and walk away. Which is why I feel if the parent is too busy to teach properly, They need to put thier child in school.





*By the way, I've been homeschooled all of my life other than a couple homeschool out-of-house programs. I belive I have turned out quite well.*
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#29 Old 03-08-2008, 07:48 AM
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I don't think there's any doubt that there are many people who are more than sufficiently competent to teach their kids. But I also don't think there's any doubt that there are many who aren't. I think having some kind of regulation is an excellent idea.
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#30 Old 03-08-2008, 10:15 AM
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I'm all for having some kind of credentials before homeschooling your kid.
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